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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?fiBT5GJs6yB+?="
Date: 20 Oct 2006 03:40:57 PM
Object: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Lucy's_Baby=22:_pre-human_fossil_dazzles_scientists_-no?==?iso-8859-1?Q?_evidence_of_creation?=
http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm
"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science
Re­search­ers say they've unearthed the pos­sib­ly most com­plete known
fos­sil of a fore­bear of hu­mans: a ba­by of the same spe­cies as the famed
"Lu­cy" fos­sil found in 1974.
.

User: "joe"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 21 Oct 2006 12:40:29 PM
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:40:57 -0500, ~ Säblë ~ <Sable666@gmail.com>
wrote:

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm

"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science

Re­search­ers say they've unearthed the pos­sib­ly most com­plete known
fos­sil of a fore­bear of hu­mans: a ba­by of the same spe­cies as the famed
"Lu­cy" fos­sil found in 1974.

as per usual... ' science ' doesn't explain scientifically where the
matter came from that Big Banged it's way into our universe as we know
it today..
as per usual... ' science ' doesn't explain scientifically how living
things initiated life in itself way back when... they must answer how
life begot itself from absolute sterility.
to accept this ' science ' you must swallow hook, line and sinker all
the unexplained parts they simply dont answer only to arrive at
Atheism via Gnosticism.
.
User: "Free Lunch"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 21 Oct 2006 01:23:35 PM
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:40:29 -0400, in alt.atheism
joe <not@home.com> wrote in
<odmkj2pau4tjt6bikpjkirabevk4rb0p72@4ax.com>:

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:40:57 -0500, ~ Säblë ~ <Sable666@gmail.com>
wrote:

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm

"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science

Re­search­ers say they've unearthed the pos­sib­ly most com­plete known
fos­sil of a fore­bear of hu­mans: a ba­by of the same spe­cies as the famed
"Lu­cy" fos­sil found in 1974.


as per usual... ' science ' doesn't explain scientifically where the
matter came from that Big Banged it's way into our universe as we know
it today..

as per usual... ' science ' doesn't explain scientifically how living
things initiated life in itself way back when... they must answer how
life begot itself from absolute sterility.

to accept this ' science ' you must swallow hook, line and sinker all
the unexplained parts they simply dont answer only to arrive at
Atheism via Gnosticism.

So, why do you use computers that are based on science? Why do you eat
food that is grown reliably with scientific discoveries? Why do you wear
clothes, live in a house, use transportation, and otherwise participate
in modern civilization if you don't trust science?
Your objections are totally dishonest.
.


User: "paolojoejingy"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 21 Oct 2006 12:18:22 AM
~ S=E4bl=EB ~ wrote:

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm

"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science

Re=ADsearch=ADers say they've unearthed the pos=ADsib=ADly most com=ADple=

te known

fos=ADsil of a fore=ADbear of hu=ADmans: a ba=ADby of the same spe=ADcies=

as the famed

"Lu=ADcy" fos=ADsil found in 1974.

Oh, Baby! Another Missing Link Discovered
by Frank Sherwin, M.A.
The Bible teaches, and the fossil record shows, that man and ape have
always been separate. Evolutionary naturalists disagree and attempt to
interpret shattered fossil remains of apes in a Darwinian context,
producing questionable "missing links."
On September 20, the story broke of "a remarkably complete skeleton
of a 3-year-old female from the ape-man species represented by
'Lucy'" (Ritter 2006). This fossil was discovered 6 years ago in
Ethiopia's Dikika region, and, not surprisingly, it was dated at "3.3
million years old making [it] the oldest known skeleton of such a
youthful human ancestor" (Ritter 2006).
But what are the facts about this "member of Australopithecus
afarensis, which lived in Africa" and may have been "quickly buried
by sediment in a flood" (Ritter 2006)?
The Lower Body
Ritter's story states that "the lower body is very human-like"
and that this creature supposedly "stood upright and walked on two
feet." It should be noted, however, that no one has actually seen
this Ethiopian creature walk upright. On the other hand, scientists
have consistently observed the living pygmy chimpanzee walking upright
about 10 percent of the time. In other words, upright walking is not
convincing evidence that this "3.3 million year old" ape was on its
way to producing the human race. The origin of bipedalism has its share
of problems.
The field of human evolution has never been placid or calm. Although
Darwinists insist man was not created (Genesis 1:26-27), there is,
and always has been, outright disagreement regarding all facets of
human evolution and this recent Ethiopian discovery has simply fanned
the flames of this "contentious debate." Indeed, evolutionist
Bernard Wood states that the climbing ability of this ape "won't
settle the debate among scientists, which he said 'makes the Middle
East look like a picnic'" (Ritter 2006).
For decades there have been two sharply differing evolutionary camps:
the fossil experts (paleontologists) and the molecular biologists. Each
group has its unique scenario for human evolution. Understandably,
creationists are very interested to hear what the molecular
evolutionary biologists have to say about this "human-like child"
fossil (BBC 2006).
Bipedal locomotion (mentioned in several stories regarding this
recently-discovered juvenile fossil) is one of the most contentious
issues between Darwinists. Evolutionist Simon Underdown of Oxford
Brookes University in England says, "This tremendous fossil will make
us challenge many of the ideas we have about how and why we came to
walk on two feet" (Reaney 2006).
Darwinists continue to strongly disagree among themselves: "How and
why natural selection favored the transition to bipedal posture and
locomotion are likewise ongoing subjects of scholarly debate and
conjecture" (Stanford 2006).
The Upper Body
The upper body of the newly discovered child fossil is virtually
indistinguishable from an ape's. Ritter states that the hyoid bone is
"very chimp-like," not human; the fingers are very curved, which
indicates climbing ability, like an ape, not a human; the organ of
balance in the inner ear is ape-like, not human; the shoulder blades
are gorilla-like, not human; and the neck is short and thick like a
great ape's, not like a human's.
Ritter states, "The question is whether such features [long arms]
indicate climbing ability or just evolutionary baggage." Yet, science
has shown repeatedly that the secular evolutionary baggage argument is
without merit. A typical and popular example of evolutionary baggage is
the outdated vestigial organs argument that was popular long ago.
Scientific research has since shown that people and animals do not have
evolutionary leftovers and that there are clear explanations for organs
and structures such as the coccyx, appendix, and tonsils. The long arms
in the afarensis specimen were created as such because the specimen was
an ape, a tree climber.
While evolutionists continue to debate the form and function of this
newly-discovered fossil, creationists continue to base the model of
man's origin on Genesis 1:26-27.
References
Ritter, Malcolm. 2006. Scientists find 'Lucy' species skeleton,
News.Yahoo.com. September 20, 2006.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060920/ap_on_sc/human_ancestor.
BBC News. 2006. "Lucy's baby" found in Ethiopia, BBCNews.com.
September 20, 2006.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5363328.stm.
Reaney, Patricia. 2006. Remains of earliest child discovered in
Ethiopia, News.Yahoo.com. September 20, 2006.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/ethiopia_fossil_dc.
Stanford, C. B. 2006. Arboreal bipedalism in wild chimpanzees:
Implications for the evolution of hominid posture and locomotion.
American Journal of Physical Anthropology 129 (2): 225.
.
User: "Dave Oldridge"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 21 Oct 2006 10:22:20 AM
"paolojoejingy" <Myspamingbox@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1161407902.828532.263990@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:


~ Säblë ~ wrote:

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm

"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science

Re­search­ers say they've unearthed the pos­sib­ly most com­ple

te known

fos­sil of a fore­bear of hu­mans: a ba­by of the same spe­cies

as the famed

"Lu­cy" fos­sil found in 1974.


Oh, Baby! Another Missing Link Discovered
by Frank Sherwin, M.A.
The Bible teaches, and the fossil record shows, that man and ape have
always been separate. Evolutionary naturalists disagree and attempt to
interpret shattered fossil remains of apes in a Darwinian context,
producing questionable "missing links."

On September 20, the story broke of "a remarkably complete skeleton
of a 3-year-old female from the ape-man species represented by
'Lucy'" (Ritter 2006). This fossil was discovered 6 years ago in
Ethiopia's Dikika region, and, not surprisingly, it was dated at "3.3
million years old making [it] the oldest known skeleton of such a
youthful human ancestor" (Ritter 2006).

But what are the facts about this "member of Australopithecus
afarensis, which lived in Africa" and may have been "quickly buried
by sediment in a flood" (Ritter 2006)?

The Lower Body
Ritter's story states that "the lower body is very human-like"
and that this creature supposedly "stood upright and walked on two
feet." It should be noted, however, that no one has actually seen
this Ethiopian creature walk upright. On the other hand, scientists
have consistently observed the living pygmy chimpanzee walking upright
about 10 percent of the time. In other words, upright walking is not
convincing evidence that this "3.3 million year old" ape was on its
way to producing the human race. The origin of bipedalism has its share
of problems.

Actually, the fact that the lower body is ADAPTED for erect walking IS a
characteristic found in modern humans but not in apes. Yet the upper
body of these creatures shows adaptation for at least a part-time
brachiation lifestyle and the brain-to-body weight ratio, while somewhat
above that of any living ape species is still well below the human norm.
What do creationists want in an intermediate fossil anyway? The truth is,
they'd rather just plug their ears and make noises in order to avoid
having to deal with them. When that doesn't work, they resort to plan B,
which is to lie their way all the way to hell, if necessary.

The field of human evolution has never been placid or calm. Although
Darwinists insist man was not created (Genesis 1:26-27), there is,
and always has been, outright disagreement regarding all facets of
human evolution and this recent Ethiopian discovery has simply fanned
the flames of this "contentious debate." Indeed, evolutionist
Bernard Wood states that the climbing ability of this ape "won't
settle the debate among scientists, which he said 'makes the Middle
East look like a picnic'" (Ritter 2006).


For decades there have been two sharply differing evolutionary camps:
the fossil experts (paleontologists) and the molecular biologists. Each
group has its unique scenario for human evolution. Understandably,
creationists are very interested to hear what the molecular
evolutionary biologists have to say about this "human-like child"
fossil (BBC 2006).

Bipedal locomotion (mentioned in several stories regarding this
recently-discovered juvenile fossil) is one of the most contentious
issues between Darwinists. Evolutionist Simon Underdown of Oxford
Brookes University in England says, "This tremendous fossil will make
us challenge many of the ideas we have about how and why we came to
walk on two feet" (Reaney 2006).

Darwinists continue to strongly disagree among themselves: "How and
why natural selection favored the transition to bipedal posture and
locomotion are likewise ongoing subjects of scholarly debate and
conjecture" (Stanford 2006).

Actually, it's not all that hard to figure out. Creationists have a
problem with it, but they have a problem with anything about evolution.
The fact is, in any environment where grassland is replacing trees,
bipedal locomotion, for a toolmaking, weapon-wielding ape is an advantage
over knuckle-walking. It enables the creature to make and carry tools
from place to place and it enables the female of the species to carry the
all-important baby.

The Upper Body
The upper body of the newly discovered child fossil is virtually
indistinguishable from an ape's. Ritter states that the hyoid bone is
"very chimp-like," not human; the fingers are very curved, which
indicates climbing ability, like an ape, not a human; the organ of
balance in the inner ear is ape-like, not human; the shoulder blades
are gorilla-like, not human; and the neck is short and thick like a
great ape's, not like a human's.


Ritter states, "The question is whether such features [long arms]
indicate climbing ability or just evolutionary baggage." Yet, science
has shown repeatedly that the secular evolutionary baggage argument is
without merit. A typical and popular example of evolutionary baggage is

Not true.

the outdated vestigial organs argument that was popular long ago.

Also not true.

Scientific research has since shown that people and animals do not have
evolutionary leftovers and that there are clear explanations for organs
and structures such as the coccyx, appendix, and tonsils. The long arms
in the afarensis specimen were created as such because the specimen was
an ape, a tree climber.

Just because organs have SOME remaining function does not mean they are
not also, in some respects vestigial. And when you look in the genomes
themselves, you see a LOT of vestigia.

While evolutionists continue to debate the form and function of this
newly-discovered fossil, creationists continue to base the model of
man's origin on Genesis 1:26-27.

In other words, they have no science to offer, just their private
interpretation of an ancient book.
Creationist theology holds that God lies to man everywhere but in the
book (and that, to be true, it must be interpreted by their own "kind").
And creationist so-called science is the entirely specious product of
their entirely heretical theology. They have a right to teach it in
their so-called churches. They have NO right to insist that we teach it
in our public, secular school system as SCIENCE (which it isn't and
doesn't want to be).
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
User: ""

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 05 Nov 2006 06:58:40 PM
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> spewed this unto the Network:

What do creationists want in an intermediate fossil anyway? The truth is,
they'd rather just plug their ears and make noises in order to avoid
having to deal with them. When that doesn't work, they resort to plan B,
which is to lie their way all the way to hell, if necessary.

Creationists process all fossils of species intermediate between humans
and apes with the following algorithm:
if Intermediacy(FOSSIL) > INTERMEDIACY_THRESHOLD then
FOSSIL.KIND := TRUE_MAN
else
FOSSIL.KIND := JUST_A_MONKEY
end
Therefore, no fossil can convince a creationist that humans and apes have
a common ancestor. A creationist will always answer "it's a man," or
"it's just a monkey."
--
Delete all files?
<Y>es, <S>ure, <A>bsolutely, <W>hy not :
.
User: "Dave Oldridge"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 06 Nov 2006 10:22:45 AM
wrote in
news:cd533$454e88c0$48312489$16143@FUSE.NET:

Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> spewed this unto the
Network:

What do creationists want in an intermediate fossil anyway? The truth
is, they'd rather just plug their ears and make noises in order to
avoid having to deal with them. When that doesn't work, they resort
to plan B, which is to lie their way all the way to hell, if
necessary.


Creationists process all fossils of species intermediate between
humans and apes with the following algorithm:

if Intermediacy(FOSSIL) > INTERMEDIACY_THRESHOLD then
FOSSIL.KIND := TRUE_MAN
else
FOSSIL.KIND := JUST_A_MONKEY
end

Therefore, no fossil can convince a creationist that humans and apes
have a common ancestor. A creationist will always answer "it's a man,"
or "it's just a monkey."

I'm still trying to get them to explain the genetics, though. I mean why
do humans and chimps have so many retroviral insertions riding in the
same seats on the bus?
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 06 Nov 2006 03:15:16 PM
On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:22:45 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:

I'm still trying to get them to explain the genetics, though. I mean why
do humans and chimps have so many retroviral insertions riding in the
same seats on the bus?

The same god created us all out of the same basic blueprint. Why he
gave us brachiating arms that can't brachiate is one of those
"mysterious ways" of his.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.


User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 05 Nov 2006 09:48:15 PM
On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 19:58:40 -0500,
wrote:

Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> spewed this unto the Network:

What do creationists want in an intermediate fossil anyway? The truth is,
they'd rather just plug their ears and make noises in order to avoid
having to deal with them. When that doesn't work, they resort to plan B,
which is to lie their way all the way to hell, if necessary.


Creationists process all fossils of species intermediate between humans
and apes with the following algorithm:

if Intermediacy(FOSSIL) > INTERMEDIACY_THRESHOLD then
FOSSIL.KIND := TRUE_MAN
else
FOSSIL.KIND := JUST_A_MONKEY
end

Therefore, no fossil can convince a creationist that humans and apes have
a common ancestor. A creationist will always answer "it's a man," or
"it's just a monkey."

Most of the time it's:
if Intermediacy(FOSSIL) > INTERMEDIACY_THRESHOLD then
FOSSIL.KIND := TRUE_MAN
else
FOSSIL.KIND := JUST_AN_APE
end
Which makes both branches equal, reducing the construct to:
If True then
end
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"They laughed at Newton, they laughed at Einstein, but they also laughed at
Bozo the Clown."
- Carl Sagan
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.



User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 05 Nov 2006 10:37:53 PM
paolojoejingy wrote:

Ritter's story states that "the lower body is very
human-like" and that this creature supposedly
"stood upright and walked on two feet." It should
be noted, however, that no one has actually seen
this Ethiopian creature walk upright.

The same argument applies to Moses, Jesus and
every other biblical figure. After all, none of us have
ever seen them, now have we?
You can argue that, if these biblical figures ever existed,
surely other people would have existed as well, and these
other people would have seen them. And that's just as
valid as saying that, if this species walked upright, plenty
of other members of their species saw them walk upright.

On the other hand, scientists have consistently observed
the living pygmy chimpanzee walking upright about 10
percent of the time.

Scientist & laymen alike have witnessed horses rearing up
on their hind legs. However, nobody is claiming that
humans & horses display similar anatomy in the lower
parts of their body.
The question was never concerning what a living species
may be capable of doing for short periods, the question
is whether walking upright defines a normal means of
locomotion or if it is only an occasional behavior.
The evidence is that walking upright was the normal or
default mode of locomotion -- like in modern humans --
and that racing around on all fours (and humans have
been observed moving about on all fours) is at best an
occasional mode of travel.

The field of human evolution has never been placid or calm.

Oh, like religion has? Heck, even Christianity can't pretend to
be stable. I mean, just look at all the Christian sects!
And then there are many subsets! There's Catholics, Baptists,
Lutherans and Episcopalians, amongst MANY others. And
then there are major divisions inside most of these groups,
like the split amongst Episcopalians.
And the Baptist, well, over the years they've split on everything
from slavery to he name "Baptist."
.

User: "Richard Smol"

Title: Re: "Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists -no evidence of creation 21 Oct 2006 01:40:54 PM
paolojoejingy wrote:

~ S=E4bl=EB ~ wrote:

http://www.world-science.net/othernews/060920_baby-afarensis.htm

"Lucy's Baby": pre-human fossil dazzles scientists
Sept. 20, 2006
Special to World Science

Re=ADsearch=ADers say they've unearthed the pos=ADsib=ADly most com=ADp=

lete known

fos=ADsil of a fore=ADbear of hu=ADmans: a ba=ADby of the same spe=ADci=

es as the famed

"Lu=ADcy" fos=ADsil found in 1974.


Oh, Baby! Another Missing Link Discovered
by Frank Sherwin, M.A.
The Bible teaches, and the fossil record shows, that man and ape have
always been separate.

Yet the evidence points to a totally different direction:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
Reality bites.
RS
.



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