| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Michelle Malkin" |
| Date: |
20 Jan 2006 11:24:41 PM |
| Object: |
Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.
The Rev. Enrico Righi was named in a 2002 complaint filed by Luigi Cascioli
after Righi wrote in a parish bulletin that Jesus did indeed exist, and that
he was born of a couple named Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem and lived in
Nazareth.
Cascioli, a lifelong atheist, claims that Righi violated two Italian laws by
making the assertion: so-called "abuse of popular belief" in which someone
fraudulently deceives people; and "impersonation" in which someone gains by
attributing a false name to someone.
Cascioli says that for 2,000 years the Roman Catholic Church has been
deceiving people by furthering the fable that Christ existed, and says the
church has been gaining financially by impersonating as Christ someone by
the name of John of Gamala, the son of Judas from Gamala.
He also asserts that the Gospels _ the most frequently cited testimony of
Jesus' existence _ are inconsistent, full of errors and biased, and that
other written evidence from the time is scant and doesn't hold up to
scholarly analysis.
Prosecutors, who in Italy are obliged to investigate such complaints,
initially tried to have the case dismissed, saying no crime could be
verified.
But Cascioli challenged them, and Judge Gaetano Mautone set a hearing for
next Friday in Viterbo, north of Rome, to discuss preliminary motions in
Cascioli's bid to have the court appoint technical experts to review the
historical data and determine if Jesus really did exist.
Cascioli, 72, said in a recent interview that he decided to pursue the case
against Righi, a priest in the village of Bagnoregio, near Viterbo, because
the cleric had written in the parish bulletin that Jesus existed.
Asked why he went after Righi _ a schoolmate when he and Cascioli were boys
_ and not any number of bishops, cardinals or even the pope who have
asserted the very same thing, Cascioli said it didn't really matter whom he
named in his complaint.
"When one demonstrates that Christ didn't exist, attacking a simple priest
is the same thing as attacking a bishop or cardinal," Cascioli said.
Cascioli is quick to stress that he has no problem with Christians freely
professing their faith. Rather, he says in his complaint, he wants to
"denounce the abuse that the Catholic Church commits by availing itself of
its prestige in order to inculcate _ as if being real and historical _ facts
that are really just inventions."
Righi, who has been a priest for 50 years, declined to be interviewed on the
advice of his lawyers before the pending court date. But he set out his
rebuke of Cascioli in a recent issue of his parish bulletin "Risveglio," or
"Awaken," and said by telephone that the article encapsulated his position.
Righi argues that the existence of Christ is "unmistakable" because of the
substantial historical evidence _ both pagan and religious _ testifying that
he indeed lived.
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the sun at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93, cites the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ, and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
"You would have to give lie to each, one by one, to cancel the Christ man
that they speak of," Righi wrote.
R. Scott Appleby, a professor of church history at the University of Notre
Dame, concurs. There's "no real doubt" that Jesus existed, he said.
"But what Jesus of Nazareth did and what he means is a different question,"
Appleby said. "But on the question of the existence, there is more evidence
of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth than there would be for many other
historical people who actually existed. Not only did Jesus actually exist,
but he actually had some kind of prominence to be mentioned in two or three
chronicles."
Cascioli says he fully recognizes that his case has a slim chance of
succeeding in overwhelmingly Catholic Italy, but not because his argument is
lacking.
"We aren't optimistic _ unless the Madonna makes a miracle, but I don't
think that will happen," he joked.
Cascioli says he is merely going through the necessary legal steps in Italy
so he can ultimately take the matter to the European Court of Human Rights,
where he intends to pursue the case against the church for "religious
racism."
"I was born against Christ and God," he said. "I'm doing it (the complaint)
now because I should do it before I die."
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
21 Jan 2006 03:35:30 AM |
|
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In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the sun at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93, cites the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ, and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
21 Jan 2006 06:31:20 AM |
|
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On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the sun at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93, cites the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ, and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
22 Jan 2006 02:43:51 AM |
|
|
In article <taa4t19b8t0a6kpaanqe3eb612hhg6tagl@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to appear
in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the sun
at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian
Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93, cites
the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James
by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ,
and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
I don't know if quoting from a work known to be false is considered
perjury under Italian law. Of course the priest could call in an
'expert' who might try to defend it. Too bad that the can't subpoena
Josephus.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
24 Jan 2006 01:48:24 AM |
|
|
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-9A76EB.00435122012006@news.giganews.com...
In article <taa4t19b8t0a6kpaanqe3eb612hhg6tagl@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to
appear
in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of
unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ
existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the
sun
at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian
Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important
non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93,
cites
the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ,
James
by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse
Christ,
and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was
executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
I don't know if quoting from a work known to be false is considered
perjury under Italian law. Of course the priest could call in an
'expert' who might try to defend it. Too bad that the can't subpoena
Josephus.
Or Iraneus, the guy who probably put in the original
interpolations.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
25 Jan 2006 01:40:15 AM |
|
|
In article <A4OdnSLvG95ZRkjeRVn-rA@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-9A76EB.00435122012006@news.giganews.com...
In article <taa4t19b8t0a6kpaanqe3eb612hhg6tagl@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to
appear
in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of
unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ
existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the
sun
at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian
Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important
non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93,
cites
the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ,
James
by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse
Christ,
and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was
executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
I don't know if quoting from a work known to be false is considered
perjury under Italian law. Of course the priest could call in an
'expert' who might try to defend it. Too bad that the can't subpoena
Josephus.
Or Iraneus, the guy who probably put in the original
interpolations.
True Or perhaps Pontius Pilate who when if asked if he knew Jesus would
answer "Which one?"
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
22 Jan 2006 01:12:51 PM |
|
|
If Jesus is the a real claimed god why does he not appear as a witness to
confirm his existence? This should take less effort than the snap of his
finger!
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-9A76EB.00435122012006@news.giganews.com...
In article <taa4t19b8t0a6kpaanqe3eb612hhg6tagl@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to
appear
in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of
unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ
existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the
sun
at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian
Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important
non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93,
cites
the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ,
James
by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse
Christ,
and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was
executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
I don't know if quoting from a work known to be false is considered
perjury under Italian law. Of course the priest could call in an
'expert' who might try to defend it. Too bad that the can't subpoena
Josephus.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
23 Jan 2006 12:05:28 AM |
|
|
In article <oMQAf.2630$5O2.721@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
If Jesus is the a real claimed god why does he not appear as a witness to
confirm his existence? This should take less effort than the snap of his
finger!
Yeah, He promised his followers that he would return in their lifetimes.
Someone should ask why he has ben AWOL for the past 2000 years.
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-9A76EB.00435122012006@news.giganews.com...
In article <taa4t19b8t0a6kpaanqe3eb612hhg6tagl@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:35:30 -0800, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <jhachmann-C45CE7.01353021012006@news.giganews.com>
In article <vLadnQQODvwRWEzeRVn-vQ@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
Italian Court Told to Prove Jesus Existed
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jan 20, 2:58 PMUPDATED 9 HOURS 5 MINUTES AGO
ROME - Lawyers for a small-town parish priest have been ordered to
appear
in
court next week after the Roman Catholic cleric was accused of
unlawfully
asserting what many people take for granted: that Jesus Christ
existed.
<snip>
"Cascioli maintains that Christ never existed. If he doesn't see the
sun
at
midday, he can't denounce me just because I do. He should denounce all
believers!" Righi wrote.
He cited many known observers, including non-Christian ones, who have
written about the existence of Jesus, including the Jewish historian
Flavius
Josephus, considered by scholars to be the most important
non-Christian
source on Christ's existence.
A passage of Josephus' "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93,
cites
the
execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ,
James
by
name."
Righi also cited Pliny the Younger, who in the early second century
described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse
Christ,
and
Tacitus, another writer of the same time who wrote that Jesus was
executed
by the sentence of Pontius Pilate.
Good grief! They're still quoting sources who were born and lived long
after Jesus was supposed to have lived. They were, just repeating
Christian dogma.
As well as the proven "Josephus" fraud.
That amounts to perjury, doesn't it?
I don't know if quoting from a work known to be false is considered
perjury under Italian law. Of course the priest could call in an
'expert' who might try to defend it. Too bad that the can't subpoena
Josephus.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
28 Jan 2006 04:45:44 AM |
|
|
johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in
news:jhachmann-C39672.22052822012006@news.giganews.com:
In article <oMQAf.2630$5O2.721@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
If Jesus is the a real claimed god why does he not appear as a witness
to confirm his existence? This should take less effort than the snap of
his finger!
Yeah, He promised his followers that he would return in their lifetimes.
Someone should ask why he has ben AWOL for the past 2000 years.
"Well, there was this rather good party you see and I met this girl there
...."
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Italian Court Told To Prove Jesus Exists |
23 Jan 2006 05:02:02 AM |
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On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:12:51 -0500, "Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
- Refer: <oMQAf.2630$5O2.721@bignews4.bellsouth.net>
If Jesus is the a real claimed god why does he not appear as a witness to
confirm his existence? This should take less effort than the snap of his
finger!
:
Enter, Billy Connolly.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268437/
.
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