| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
07 Jun 2006 04:24:31 PM |
| Object: |
It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
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| User: "Mark" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
07 Jun 2006 08:44:48 PM |
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wrote in
news:1149715471.470590.171300@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning.
relax...many, many other diseases have lasted far, far longer
think of polio...and smallpox...the plague...hell, AIDS and
ebola have only started to assert themselves on the planet
....it's quite likely that they'll last much longer (though
perhaps neither of those two is quite as virulent ;^D)
The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter
that the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations
for Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning
son-of-man, led to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles
worshipping the jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for
Xianity's success was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non
jehovah religions and institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought
control. One's faith in people gets depressed today when so many
people still fall for the old fairy tale in the USA today
--
Mark
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
07 Jun 2006 10:31:52 PM |
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Mark wrote:
jonho45@hotmail.com wrote in
news:1149715471.470590.171300@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning.
relax...many, many other diseases have lasted far, far longer
think of polio...and smallpox...the plague...hell, AIDS and
ebola have only started to assert themselves on the planet
...it's quite likely that they'll last much longer (though
perhaps neither of those two is quite as virulent ;^D)
Science has wiped out smallpox, is on the trail
of the last of polio. Ebola has just had a vaccine created to halt
that and others like Marsburg will easily be dealt with similarly.
AIDS is a problem, but we alread see evolution creating
populations resistant to AIDS.
The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter
that the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations
for Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning
son-of-man, led to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles
worshipping the jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for
Xianity's success was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non
jehovah religions and institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought
control. One's faith in people gets depressed today when so many
people still fall for the old fairy tale in the USA today
--
"Its the hit dog what yelps."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "youcantreallybelievethat" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
08 Jun 2006 02:21:09 PM |
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wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Hey, the xtians simply modified judaism and branched off. They did away
with the pork and shell fish restriction along with circumcision, added
the reward and punishment clause and threw in some jeebus "miracles".
jeebus wan't the first virgin birth or first resurrection. xtians
borrowed a little from everywhere....Roman mytholgy, Greek mytholgy,
Egyptian and Babylonian. Nothing new, just a different cult.
"You believe he's the one and only true god because you truly believe
in him" There were hundreds of gods before this one and hundreds to
come after
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| User: "Michael Martin Heathen Libertarian Forum" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 12:04:14 PM |
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The dead-jew-on-a-stick swindle is the greatest falsehood ever to be
imposed on western civilization. It's a fantasy tale. Jesus never
existed! Read
htp://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd5.html
Michael Martin - HLF
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 03:16:25 PM |
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Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian Forum) wrote:
The dead-jew-on-a-stick swindle is the greatest falsehood ever to be
imposed on western civilization. It's a fantasy tale. Jesus never
existed! Read
htp://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd5.html
Michael Martin - HLF How about he was a person trying to live a fiction, a king of the Jews in the coming Kingdom of God all laid out in Isaiah, Daniel ect. And who was further fictionalized along the same and other lines after his death. The book 'Jesus dynasty" makes a plausible case that he thought he was the Davidic king that Jews expected based on the predictions of Isaiah and Daniel prophecies. But I do agree it is the biggest lie imposed on western civilization.
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 01:27:52 PM |
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On 10 Jun 2006 10:04:14 -0700, "Michael Martin (Heathen Libertarian
Forum)" <NVN_Othala@yahoo.com> wrote:
The dead-jew-on-a-stick swindle
Ah. The poster is driven by bile, not objectivity.
is the greatest falsehood
Nothing compared to the myth of scieno-techno "progress" and the myth
of the innate goodness of Western culture.
ever to be
imposed on western civilization.
Not even close relative to consumerism (directly opposed to Jesus'
poverty ethic), the cult of personality, rampant imperialism
masquerading as "democratization".
It's a fantasy tale.
Resembling the one you're trying to foist on your readers?
Jesus never
existed!
Jesus existed! Read Hugh Schonfield, Marcus Borg, Dominic Crossan,
Robert Eisenman, Joel Carmichael, Raymond E. Brown, Geza Vermes, Bruce
Chilton, J.S. Spong, Stephen Patterson, Bruce Vawter, Albert
Schweitzer, Richard Horsley, J.A.T. Robinson, E.P. Sanders, James
Carroll, James Tabor, Rudolf Bultmann, Stevan Davies, Keith Akers,
Stephan Hoeller, Alan Segal, Larry Hurtado, and many more.
Or: Jesus never existed! In which case his myth has profound value
in metaphorical, Jungian-Campbellian and Gnostic terms.
In either case - Jesus historical / Jesus myth - it is possible to
find intelligible and significant spirituality.
snipped
- sl -
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| User: "Ron Peterson" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
12 Jun 2006 07:35:15 PM |
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youcantreallybelievethat wrote:
Hey, the xtians simply modified judaism and branched off. ...
Darwin shouldn't have stopped with plants and animals, but should have
gone on to look at the evolution of religions.
--
Ron
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
12 Jun 2006 09:35:11 PM |
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On 12 Jun 2006 17:35:15 -0700, "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com>
wrote:
youcantreallybelievethat wrote:
Hey, the xtians simply modified judaism and branched off. ...
Darwin shouldn't have stopped with plants and animals, but should have
gone on to look at the evolution of religions.
Actually, this is being done by Dennet and Dawkins, with not very
happy results. Ken Wilber does a much more objective analysis.
- sl -
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| User: "Joseph Littleshoes" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
13 Jun 2006 02:12:20 AM |
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shriven leper wrote:
On 12 Jun 2006 17:35:15 -0700, "Ron Peterson" <ron@shell.core.com>
wrote:
youcantreallybelievethat wrote:
Hey, the xtians simply modified judaism and branched off. ...
Darwin shouldn't have stopped with plants and animals, but should have
gone on to look at the evolution of religions.
Actually, this is being done by Dennet and Dawkins, with not very
happy results. Ken Wilber does a much more objective analysis.
- sl -
Homer Smith's "Man and his gods" is an interesting & entertaining read.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/homer1a.htm
---
JL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 03:02:44 PM |
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youcantreallybelievethat wrote:
jonho45@hotmail.com wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Hey, the xtians simply modified judaism and branched off. They did away
with the pork and shell fish restriction along with circumcision, added
the reward and punishment clause and threw in some jeebus "miracles".
jeebus wan't the first virgin birth or first resurrection. xtians
borrowed a little from everywhere....Roman mytholgy, Greek mytholgy,
Egyptian and Babylonian. Nothing new, just a different cult.
"You believe he's the one and only true god because you truly believe
in him" There were hundreds of gods before this one and hundreds to
come after And the Persian influence which with its own coming savior, good-bad theolgy and end of ages might have been thwe most influencial. The ressurection was also grounded in Jewish tradition. Jesus was the first fruits of the general ressurection in the end times Kingdom of God.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
07 Jun 2006 05:32:39 PM |
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On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Oh, well, I made the mistake of thinking you had something of value to say.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
07 Jun 2006 08:42:32 PM |
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On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:32:39 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Oh, well, I made the mistake of thinking you had something of value to say.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Actually, jonho had some intelligent things to say, although
somewhat uncritical. He's certainly correct that the earliest form of
Xty was Jewish and monotheist. The original Jewish Jesus was not the
later monstrosity, the "god-man" or the "second person of the
trinity". He was the messiah and the heavenly son of man raised up by
god. The Christ worshiped in most Xian churches is a product of a
Greek misreading of Paul and John. The Greek misreading became
ensconced as doctrine by Greek church councils and what was heretical
- Jesus = God - has now become "true" religion.
- sl -
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
08 Jun 2006 02:43:38 PM |
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shriven leper wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:32:39 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Actually, jonho had some intelligent things to say, although
somewhat uncritical. He's certainly correct that the earliest form of
Xty was Jewish and monotheist. The original Jewish Jesus was not the
later monstrosity, the "god-man" or the "second person of the
trinity". He was the messiah and the heavenly son of man raised up by
god. The Christ worshiped in most Xian churches is a product of a
Greek misreading of Paul and John. The Greek misreading became
ensconced as doctrine by Greek church councils and what was heretical
- Jesus = God - has now become "true" religion.
Yes Jesus became the son of god in Catholic theology, but the
god-man Xians have expected to return to earth for 17-20 centuries is
the son of man described in jewish traditional writings, Daniel, Enoch,
Baruck, Estras ect. Son of God is the name Catholic theology gave to
the Son of Man role described in the NT especially Revelations. The
theology is a gentile patina on a jewish religion. The Son of Man was
the last characterization in Daniel's succession of ancient rulers, a
last days judge, sitting at the right hand of god, coming down on
clouds accompanied by angels, hidden from the beginning, the king of
kings, the sacrificial lamb, the Isaiahic atonement.
.
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
08 Jun 2006 09:16:05 PM |
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On 8 Jun 2006 12:43:38 -0700, wrote:
shriven leper wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:32:39 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Actually, jonho had some intelligent things to say, although
somewhat uncritical. He's certainly correct that the earliest form of
Xty was Jewish and monotheist. The original Jewish Jesus was not the
later monstrosity, the "god-man" or the "second person of the
trinity". He was the messiah and the heavenly son of man raised up by
god. The Christ worshiped in most Xian churches is a product of a
Greek misreading of Paul and John. The Greek misreading became
ensconced as doctrine by Greek church councils and what was heretical
- Jesus = God - has now become "true" religion.
Yes Jesus became the son of god in Catholic theology, but the
god-man Xians have expected to return to earth for 17-20 centuries is
the son of man described in jewish traditional writings, Daniel, Enoch,
Baruck, Estras ect. Son of God is the name Catholic theology gave to
the Son of Man role described in the NT especially Revelations.
Yes, but it is also a "Greek" interpretation made by church councils
that "son of god" also means, in JC's case, "only-begotten, unique,
pre-existent Trinitarian Son"...
The
theology is a gentile patina on a jewish religion.
Yes, and darned few Xians want to face that fact...
The Son of Man was
the last characterization in Daniel's succession of ancient rulers, a
last days judge,
Yes, and JC's earliest Jewish followers saw him as taking the place
- i.e., as the functional equivalent - of the son of man. The son of
man had been "anhypostatic" or impersonal. Now, thanks to God's
raising JC to his right hand, JC is now the personal - hypostatic -
son of man charged with the power of divine judgment. A similar thing
was done by the GospJohn's christology - the eternal Logos, originally
anhypostatic, was now in JC "enfleshed" and personalized.
sitting at the right hand of god,
Where the hypostatic JC now sits...
coming down on
clouds accompanied by angels,
As the hypostatic JC will someday also do... so they said and
continue to say.
hidden from the beginning, the king of
kings, the sacrificial lamb, the Isaiahic atonement.
Yeah, all these attributes were projected on the "risen, living"
Christ by his earliest Jewish followers. It was up to the later
Gentile church to corrupt this
monotheistic-prophetic-angelomorphologic Jewish Christ into the hybrid
"god-man".
- sl -
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 02:53:41 PM |
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shriven leper wrote:
On 8 Jun 2006 12:43:38 -0700, wrote:
shriven leper wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:32:39 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Actually, jonho had some intelligent things to say, although
somewhat uncritical. He's certainly correct that the earliest form of
Xty was Jewish and monotheist. The original Jewish Jesus was not the
later monstrosity, the "god-man" or the "second person of the
trinity". He was the messiah and the heavenly son of man raised up by
god. The Christ worshiped in most Xian churches is a product of a
Greek misreading of Paul and John. The Greek misreading became
ensconced as doctrine by Greek church councils and what was heretical
- Jesus = God - has now become "true" religion.
Yes Jesus became the son of god in Catholic theology, but the
god-man Xians have expected to return to earth for 17-20 centuries is
the son of man described in jewish traditional writings, Daniel, Enoch,
Baruck, Estras ect. Son of God is the name Catholic theology gave to
the Son of Man role described in the NT especially Revelations.
Yes, but it is also a "Greek" interpretation made by church councils
that "son of god" also means, in JC's case, "only-begotten, unique,
pre-existent Trinitarian Son"...
The
theology is a gentile patina on a jewish religion.
Yes, and darned few Xians want to face that fact...
The Son of Man was
the last characterization in Daniel's succession of ancient rulers, a
last days judge,
Yes, and JC's earliest Jewish followers saw him as taking the place
- i.e., as the functional equivalent - of the son of man. The son of
man had been "anhypostatic" or impersonal. Now, thanks to God's
raising JC to his right hand, JC is now the personal - hypostatic -
son of man charged with the power of divine judgment. A similar thing
was done by the GospJohn's christology - the eternal Logos, originally
anhypostatic, was now in JC "enfleshed" and personalized.
How did the son of man which may have been a symbol for
Israel or referred to Israel's angel, Michael, come to be applied to a
real living person, Jesus. after his death? Is there any evidence that
the attributes of the son of man where projected unto any other person?
The formula," He gave His only begotten Son . . . ." seems to be the
principal injection of Catholic theology into jewish writings.
sitting at the right hand of god,
Where the hypostatic JC now sits...
coming down on
clouds accompanied by angels,
As the hypostatic JC will someday also do... so they said and
continue to say.
hidden from the beginning, the king of
kings, the sacrificial lamb, the Isaiahic atonement.
Yeah, all these attributes were projected on the "risen, living"
Christ by his earliest Jewish followers. It was up to the later
Gentile church to corrupt this
monotheistic-prophetic-angelomorphologic Jewish Christ into the hybrid
"god-man".
- sl -
.
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
10 Jun 2006 04:25:01 PM |
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On 10 Jun 2006 12:53:41 -0700, wrote:
shriven leper wrote:
On 8 Jun 2006 12:43:38 -0700, wrote:
shriven leper wrote:
On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:32:39 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2006 14:24:31 -0700, wrote:
Especially since it was bullsh*t from the beginning. The original
jewish propagandists must be rolling in their graves from laughter that
the folly of their Danielic messianic-son of man expectations for
Jesus,a failed messiah morphed into a never returning son-of-man, led
to such an unexpected propaganda success, gentiles worshipping the
jewish god. Of course, the biggest by far reason for Xianity's success
was capturing the power of Rome to ban all non jehovah religions and
institute 15 centuries of nazi like thought control. One's faith in
people gets depressed today when so many people still fall for the old
fairy tale in the USA today
Actually, jonho had some intelligent things to say, although
somewhat uncritical. He's certainly correct that the earliest form of
Xty was Jewish and monotheist. The original Jewish Jesus was not the
later monstrosity, the "god-man" or the "second person of the
trinity". He was the messiah and the heavenly son of man raised up by
god. The Christ worshiped in most Xian churches is a product of a
Greek misreading of Paul and John. The Greek misreading became
ensconced as doctrine by Greek church councils and what was heretical
- Jesus = God - has now become "true" religion.
Yes Jesus became the son of god in Catholic theology, but the
god-man Xians have expected to return to earth for 17-20 centuries is
the son of man described in jewish traditional writings, Daniel, Enoch,
Baruck, Estras ect. Son of God is the name Catholic theology gave to
the Son of Man role described in the NT especially Revelations.
Yes, but it is also a "Greek" interpretation made by church councils
that "son of god" also means, in JC's case, "only-begotten, unique,
pre-existent Trinitarian Son"...
The
theology is a gentile patina on a jewish religion.
Yes, and darned few Xians want to face that fact...
The Son of Man was
the last characterization in Daniel's succession of ancient rulers, a
last days judge,
Yes, and JC's earliest Jewish followers saw him as taking the place
- i.e., as the functional equivalent - of the son of man. The son of
man had been "anhypostatic" or impersonal. Now, thanks to God's
raising JC to his right hand, JC is now the personal - hypostatic -
son of man charged with the power of divine judgment. A similar thing
was done by the GospJohn's christology - the eternal Logos, originally
anhypostatic, was now in JC "enfleshed" and personalized.
How did the son of man which may have been a symbol for
Israel or referred to Israel's angel, Michael, come to be applied to a
real living person, Jesus. after his death?
The crucial "Israel's angel" was Yahoel - YHVH's chief assisting
angel, who bore the divine name and who was charged with exercising
divine judgment. Once Jesus had been raised to heaven, he was thought
to bear the divine name (mara/kyrios) and to exercise divine judgment.
The risen JC was now functionally equivalent to the chief assisting
angel, who was also said to be "Metatron" - the One who stands beyond
God's throne. _How_ the symbology came to be applied will be a
mystery until someone invents a time machine and we can go back and
see for ourselves. For now, we are left to guess that the original
Jewish disciples' "resurrection experience" or "Easter experience"
convinced them that the posthumous JC had now become functionally
equivalent to Yahoel.
Is there any evidence that
the attributes of the son of man where projected unto any other person?
Yes, Enoch, like JC, was thought to have ascended to heaven, been
sanctified, and returned to earth with a mission. During his heavenly
sanctification, he became identified with the chief assisting angel,
and was even given the angel's name, Metatron.
The formula," He gave His only begotten Son . . . ." seems to be the
principal injection of Catholic theology into jewish writings.
Actually, no, it pre-exists RCC dogma by several hundred years, as
it is foundational to John's Gospel which calls Jesus _monogenes_ ,
translated as "only-begotten". Granted, the RCC connotation was
different: for John, JC was "uniquely" begotten, while for RCC
christology, the connotation was that the Son, as 2nd Trinitarian
Person, was "begotten" of or by - or "proceeded from" the Father.
snipped
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
12 Jun 2006 07:15:09 PM |
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How did the son of man which may have been a symbol for
Israel or referred to Israel's angel, Michael, come to be applied to a
real living person, Jesus. after his death?
The crucial "Israel's angel" was Yahoel - YHVH's chief assisting
angel, who bore the divine name and who was charged with exercising
divine judgment. Once Jesus had been raised to heaven, he was thought
to bear the divine name (mara/kyrios) and to exercise divine judgment.
The risen JC was now functionally equivalent to the chief assisting
angel, who was also said to be "Metatron" - the One who stands beyond
God's throne. _How_ the symbology came to be applied will be a
mystery until someone invents a time machine and we can go back and
see for ourselves. For now, we are left to guess that the original
Jewish disciples' "resurrection experience" or "Easter experience"
convinced them that the posthumous JC had now become functionally
equivalent to Yahoel.
How does first fruits of the coming general ressurection in the coming
Kingdom of Godfit into their expectations?
Is there any evidence that
the attributes of the son of man where projected unto any other person?
Yes, Enoch, like JC, was thought to have ascended to heaven, been
sanctified, and returned to earth with a mission. During his heavenly
sanctification, he became identified with the chief assisting angel,
and was even given the angel's name, Metatron.
Enoch is mentioned in the NT, did the example of Enoch make it easier
for Jesus' followers to image Jesus as a man could become the heavenly
son of man, a seeming outrageous stretch.
The formula," He gave His only begotten Son . . . ." seems to be the
principal injection of Catholic theology into jewish writings.
Actually, no, it pre-exists RCC dogma by several hundred years, as
it is foundational to John's Gospel which calls Jesus _monogenes_ ,
translated as "only-begotten". Granted, the RCC connotation was
different: for John, JC was "uniquely" begotten, while for RCC
christology, the connotation was that the Son, as 2nd Trinitarian
Person, was "begotten" of or by - or "proceeded from" the Father.
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| User: "shriven leper" |
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| Title: Re: It's depressing Xianity has lasted 2000 years |
12 Jun 2006 09:33:58 PM |
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On 12 Jun 2006 17:15:09 -0700, wrote:
How did the son of man which may have been a symbol for
Israel or referred to Israel's angel, Michael, come to be applied to a
real living person, Jesus. after his death?
The crucial "Israel's angel" was Yahoel - YHVH's chief assisting
angel, who bore the divine name and who was charged with exercising
divine judgment. Once Jesus had been raised to heaven, he was thought
to bear the divine name (mara/kyrios) and to exercise divine judgment.
The risen JC was now functionally equivalent to the chief assisting
angel, who was also said to be "Metatron" - the One who stands beyond
God's throne. _How_ the symbology came to be applied will be a
mystery until someone invents a time machine and we can go back and
see for ourselves. For now, we are left to guess that the original
Jewish disciples' "resurrection experience" or "Easter experience"
convinced them that the posthumous JC had now become functionally
equivalent to Yahoel.
How does first fruits of the coming general ressurection in the coming
Kingdom of Godfit into their expectations?
Well, at first it didn't fit, since the messiah was not predicted to
be killed, much less killed by unclean, occupation-force
Gentiles/Romans. However, I think Paul's explanation was probably
shared by his sometimes-"friends" in Jerusalem, i.e., now that Jesus
was raised, this was a sign that the End Times had arrived and so
Jesus had become the first fruits - the symbolic first example - of
the new age, and thus was seen as the definitive precursor of the
general resurrection.
Is there any evidence that
the attributes of the son of man where projected unto any other person?
Yes, Enoch, like JC, was thought to have ascended to heaven, been
sanctified, and returned to earth with a mission. During his heavenly
sanctification, he became identified with the chief assisting angel,
and was even given the angel's name, Metatron.
Enoch is mentioned in the NT, did the example of Enoch make it easier
for Jesus' followers to image Jesus as a man could become the heavenly
son of man, a seeming outrageous stretch.
I think the stretch was outrageous because of the impact of the
"Easter experience" (whatever that may have been) - the resurrection -
itself was outrageous.
When the early Jewish followers of Jesus conceptualized Jesus at
God's right hand, that was where the heavenly son of man/chief
assisting angel were already ensconced. So instead of positing two
"powers" at God's right hand, they simply claimed that the risen Jesus
was now personally identifiable with a Metatron-type figure.
Especially now, Jesus was the heavenly Lord or Mara/Maran - as such,
like Yahoel, he bore the divine Name; he also would come to judge the
world - another attribute of the chief assisting angel.
So the earliest christology was "high", but it was "high Jewish"
christology, not the later high Greek christology which misidentified
the risen Jesus as God or the Second Trinitarian Person. Jesus'
Jewish followers even addressed prayer to him - Maranatha, "come,
Lord" - not as God, but as God's messianic agent.
snipped
You may be interested in Larry Hurtado's "Lord Jesus Christ", which
shows how early and Palestinian-Jewish the high christological use of
Mara was, and how influential it was, even being used as an Aramaic
phrase by the universalizing Paul. Also you might like Alan Segal's
book, "Two Powers in Heaven" which shows that eventually the high
christology of the Jewish Jesus-sect evolved - at least in the eyes of
rabbinical opponents of the movement - from monotheistic binitarianism
to incipient ditheism. Also Segal treats 2nd Temple Jewish mysticism
into Paul's christology in his "Paul the Convert: the Apostleship and
Apostasy of Saul". Raymond E. Brown in "The Community of the Beloved
Disciple" details the evolution of Jesus' image from "standard Jewish
expectation" to the Logos-christology of the Johannine writings.
- sl -
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