| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2006 10:46:01 AM |
| Object: |
Jefferson the Secfular Humanist |
Jefferson and his supporters defended the Republican candidate's
religious beliefs, but in doing so, they entered a debate whose terms the
Federalists had set. Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian, a
position he had reached as "the result of a life of inquiry and
reflection." In a letter to Benjamin Rush three years after the 1800
election, he declared, "I am a Christian, in the only sense [Jesus] wished
anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all
others." If he had allowed that simple statement to stand without
explanation, perhaps he would have escaped the scurrilous attacks he
endured. But he continued, denying the divinity ofJesus and thus violating
a central tenet of all confessions and creeds of orthodox Christianity. He
ascribed to Jesus "every human excellence" and expressed the belief that
"he never claimed any other.34
Jefferson professed to be a Christian, but according to most
Protestant confessions of faith he was not. Indeed, as John Murrin has
noted, Jefferson and many of the other prominent Founding Fathers were what
some today call secular humanists. The modern definition of that term
includes three components: (1) elevation of human reason above divine
revelation, (2) reliance on human solutions for human problems, and (3)
ethical relativism.35 Clearly, Jefferson qualified on all three counts,
but especially on the first. Jefferson did indeed give precedence to reason
over revelation in determining truth. In his oft-quoted advice to Peter
Carr, he urged his nephew to "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to
her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of God; because if there be one, he must approve of the homage of
reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Jefferson believed that nothing,
including biblical teachings and clerical pronouncements, should be
accepted as authoritative without being subjected to reason and the laws of
nature. He insisted that the Bible be read as one would read any other
book. And when scriptural passages "contradict the laws of nature," they
should be treated as similar claims would be if encountered in "Livy or
Tacitus." Citing an example in a letter to Carr, Jefferson suggested that
if one read in the Latin histories Joshua's claim that the sun stood still,
it would be classified as myth, and so it should be in the Old Testament.36
34. Works offtfirerson, 9:457.
35. Murrin, "Religion and Politics in America," 32-33.
36. Works of Jefferson, 5:324.
SOURCE: The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. Frank
Lambert Princeton University Press, (2003) p. 279
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson the Secfular Humanist; contradictory information |
08 Apr 2006 06:51:32 AM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|buckeye-elo@nospam.net wrote:
:|> Jefferson and his supporters defended the Republican candidate's
:|> religious beliefs, but in doing so, they entered a debate whose terms the
:|> Federalists had set. Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian, a
:|> position he had reached as "the result of a life of inquiry and
:|> reflection." In a letter to Benjamin Rush three years after the 1800
:|> election, he declared, "I am a Christian, in the only sense [Jesus] wished
:|> anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all
:|> others." If he had allowed that simple statement to stand without
:|> explanation, perhaps he would have escaped the scurrilous attacks he
:|> endured. But he continued, denying the divinity ofJesus and thus violating
:|> a central tenet of all confessions and creeds of orthodox Christianity. He
:|> ascribed to Jesus "every human excellence" and expressed the belief that
:|> "he never claimed any other.34
:|>
:|> Jefferson professed to be a Christian, but according to most
:|> Protestant confessions of faith he was not. Indeed, as John Murrin has
:|> noted, Jefferson and many of the other prominent Founding Fathers were what
:|> some today call secular humanists.
:|
:|Please critique the information at the following URL because it
:|essentially contradicts what you are asserting about the Founding
:|Chrisians:
:|
:|http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5703
Good thing I read alt.education yesterday. First time in weeks. Otherwise I
would not have found this since I put you on ignore along with all the
other trolls.
Sure fred, I'll get right on it just as soon as you reply to the huge
backlog od replies I have made to your posts with historical and legal
documentation, shooting down your position time and time again. You know,
all those posts you have ignored over the past 18 months.
Don't ask another to do that which you refuse to do.
BTW, there were no founding "christians"
Here try this one
* Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson the Secfular Humanist; contradictory information |
06 Apr 2006 11:57:55 AM |
|
|
wrote:
Jefferson and his supporters defended the Republican candidate's
religious beliefs, but in doing so, they entered a debate whose terms the
Federalists had set. Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian, a
position he had reached as "the result of a life of inquiry and
reflection." In a letter to Benjamin Rush three years after the 1800
election, he declared, "I am a Christian, in the only sense [Jesus] wished
anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all
others." If he had allowed that simple statement to stand without
explanation, perhaps he would have escaped the scurrilous attacks he
endured. But he continued, denying the divinity ofJesus and thus violating
a central tenet of all confessions and creeds of orthodox Christianity. He
ascribed to Jesus "every human excellence" and expressed the belief that
"he never claimed any other.34
Jefferson professed to be a Christian, but according to most
Protestant confessions of faith he was not. Indeed, as John Murrin has
noted, Jefferson and many of the other prominent Founding Fathers were wh=
at
some today call secular humanists.
Please critique the information at the following URL because it
essentially contradicts what you are asserting about the Founding
Chrisians:
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=3DNewsArticle&id=3D5703
The modern definition of that term
includes three components: (1) elevation of human reason above divine
revelation, (2) reliance on human solutions for human problems, and (3)
ethical relativism.35 Clearly, Jefferson qualified on all three counts,
but especially on the first. Jefferson did indeed give precedence to reas=
on
over revelation in determining truth. In his oft-quoted advice to Peter
Carr, he urged his nephew to "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to
her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of God; because if there be one, he must approve of the homage =
of
reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Jefferson believed that nothing,
including biblical teachings and clerical pronouncements, should be
accepted as authoritative without being subjected to reason and the laws =
of
nature. He insisted that the Bible be read as one would read any other
book. And when scriptural passages "contradict the laws of nature," they
should be treated as similar claims would be if encountered in "Livy or
Tacitus." Citing an example in a letter to Carr, Jefferson suggested that
if one read in the Latin histories Joshua's claim that the sun stood stil=
l,
it would be classified as myth, and so it should be in the Old Testament.=
36
34. Works offtfirerson, 9:457.
35. Murrin, "Religion and Politics in America," 32-33.
36. Works of Jefferson, 5:324.
SOURCE: The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. Frank
Lambert Princeton University Press, (2003) p. 279
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=
r,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson the Secfular Humanist; contradictory information |
09 Apr 2006 06:03:50 AM |
|
|
laffs@'em-all.com wrote:
:|That suggest to many of us that you're "lacking"
:|something and have a pathological need to get
:|attention.
:|
:|IOW, you're borderin on "sickie", Freddy.
:|
:|Get help quick ! !
I wonder what could be said about those who just about match each of fred's
posts and replies with a replies of their own to his, even begins new
threads using his name in the thread?
Just a thought
(grin)
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson the Secfular Humanist; contradictory information |
09 Apr 2006 06:15:47 AM |
|
|
laffs@'em-all.com wrote:
:|You can't even admit EVERSON neither made law, or ruled
:|against your position.
And you are becoming more fred like everyday with your inability to admit
your mistake/
Everson made law by virtute of (1) legally defining the Establishment
Clause for the first time and (2) stating that said clause applied to the
states.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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