Jerry Patterson wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:48:22 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:

Jerry Patterson wrote:

<snip>

JP
As an Atheist can you explain the first existent reality? I know of
no consistent reasoning of atheists because such thinking does not
explain how the first existent came to be. But that has seemingly
little or no effect on the construction of an unstable fable.

Yes, it has necessary existance.
Nothing has never existed because something
cannot come from nothing. Thus the Universe
has necessary existance. It cannot have not existed.
This is simply a brute fact about the Universe and
has no why, it has simple existance.

JP
How can material exist in eternity?

Who said anything about matter? Not me.
Matter comes and goes. Virtual particles come
and go in immense numbers out of empty space.
The fields that pervade the Universe are the
source of matter. And why should this not be so?
Why is it that we cannot imagine that matter or fields
may exist into past infinity but that god does?

We have here a case of special pleading it would seem,
double standards.

What does exist? Not god. God leaves no traces
of evidence for his existance. All one can do
is make assertions. But these basic assertions
creat impossible contradictions, a god that is
omni-everything and creates everthing is impossible.

Thus whatever you may think of the Universe, explaining
it cannot depend on such disprovable ideas as a class
of creator gods.

I have no more problem with an eternal basic
foundations of a physical Universe based on physics
than you have with an eternal god.

I do have problems with the concept of a class of gods
that has overlapping contradictions created from a
few basic claims.

Its a case of following the evidence. Following clues lead us to
the big band and the physics behind it,

Jerry Patterson wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:48:22 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:

Jerry Patterson wrote:

<snip>

JP
As an Atheist can you explain the first existent reality? I know of
no consistent reasoning of atheists because such thinking does not
explain how the first existent came to be. But that has seemingly
little or no effect on the construction of an unstable fable.

Yes, it has necessary existance.
Nothing has never existed because something
cannot come from nothing. Thus the Universe
has necessary existance. It cannot have not existed.
This is simply a brute fact about the Universe and
has no why, it has simple existance.

JP
How can material exist in eternity?

Who said anything about matter? Not me.
Matter comes and goes. Virtual particles come
and go in immense numbers out of empty space.
The fields that pervade the Universe are the
source of matter. And why should this not be so?
Why is it that we cannot imagine that matter or fields
may exist into past infinity but that god does?

We have here a case of special pleading it would seem,
double standards.

What does exist? Not god. God leaves no traces
of evidence for his existance. All one can do
is make assertions. But these basic assertions
creat impossible contradictions, a god that is
omni-everything and creates everthing is impossible.

Thus whatever you may think of the Universe, explaining
it cannot depend on such disprovable ideas as a class
of creator gods.

I have no more problem with an eternal basic
foundations of a physical Universe based on physics
than you have with an eternal god.

I do have problems with the concept of a class of gods
that has overlapping contradictions created from a
few basic claims.

Its a case of following the evidence. Following clues lead us to
the big band and the physics behind it,

The problem is, if you talk about god, god has the
same problem.

Except the Universe does exist and god has no evidence
of existing. Assertions made about god contradict
each other showing god as a possible thing cannot exist.

The stable fact is, the Universe does in fact exist and
there is no why. There is only the is, the fact of it.

Nor is inability to say "why" any more a defect in
Atheist thinking any more that no religious believer
can likewise say why god exists be a defect. Why does
god exist?

The problem is, the Universe does exist, and god can
be demonstrated not to exist by examining the contradictions
that are found when looking at basic claims about god.

If one is unable to explain how the first existent came to be,

There was no first. Some ancient Greek thinkers came to realize
that the Universe must have been infinite. There is no
first existance with infinity, infinity is the nature
of the Universe. If you posit a god, then god had a
beginning, or you ar e using special pleading.
Moving teh goal posts mid-argument.

JP

I believe in no god! To which god do you refer? A Greek god?

Any god that is omni-everything and omnipotent.

Other gods have similar problems, Greek and Roman
nature gods for example, this goddess is in charge of
what, that god, messager of greater gods, this
god is in chatge of fertility of flocks of cattle.

We have long drawn out myth cycles, gods battling
each other, creating the sun and moon and stars
and so on. These don't work either.

What's left worth bothering with?

One the big omni-everything gods go, everything else is
simply same in disguise or a distance, very distant
second in believabiliity.

How many people can believe in voodoo gods and smear
themselves with chicken blood and dance at the voodoo
priests hut to bring good luck from some make believe
god?

That sort of religion has its problems its nature gods
in disguise and often the prayers and sacrifices
and ceremonies don't work.

Science leaves no room for Ceres, goddess of wheat.

then
most of the explanation of reality that follows is the result of
partial privation. The result is the fashioning of elaborate steel
columns (convoluted reasoning) which stand on a foundation of balsa
wood.

Anaximander

Phys. iii. 4; 203 b 7. There is no beginning of the infinite, for in
that case it would have an end. But it is without beginning and
indestructible, as being a sort of first principle; for it is necessary
that whatever comes into existence should have an end, and there is a
conclusion of all destruction. Wherefore as we say, there is no first
principle of this [i.e. the infinite], but it itself [Page 10] seems to
be the first principle of all other things and to surround all and to
direct all, as they say who think that there are no other causes
besides the infinite (such as mind, or friendship), but that it itself
is divine ; for it is immortal and indestructible, as Anaximandros and
most of the physicists say.

JP
Sure. Again, if only infinity existed how did material exist?

What does that have to do with anything?
What is to stop matter from existing in a
chain of being into infinity?

What is to stop it?

If a VP pair can pop in and out of existance,
why would that be impossible back into any point
into infinite past years?