Religions > Atheism > Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Buck" |
| Date: |
07 Sep 2005 11:57:53 PM |
| Object: |
Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those first to step up and say,
"Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
...are quite often to blame....
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
07 Sep 2005 09:42:55 PM |
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Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I
have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than
in the church."
--Ferdinand Magellan, (1480-1521)
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
08 Sep 2005 02:46:33 AM |
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TV's Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
New Orleans has been described as a "bowl" but a more accurate description
might be a "plate". It is lower in the middle, but the sides are very
shallow. The terrain around Johnstown is more rugged, mountainous terrain
so the relief is much greater.
.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
10 Sep 2005 08:59:46 PM |
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On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:46:33 -0500, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
TV's Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
New Orleans has been described as a "bowl" but a more accurate description
might be a "plate". It is lower in the middle, but the sides are very
shallow. The terrain around Johnstown is more rugged, mountainous terrain
so the relief is much greater.
I can see that as being a problem, but why couldn't "mountains" be
built in the city? Granted it's not easy or cheap, but it's doable,
and they're going to be paying to rebuild some rather significant
portions of the area anyway. In those places where there aren't
people interested in rebuilding homes, couldn't structures be erected
for such a use? They wouldn't need to be exclusively for that
purpose, of course, but structures that also serve such a purpose
could come in useful if such a devastating event happens in the area
again. Johnstown managed to turn its Inclined Plane into somewhat of
an attraction, I'd think that would be one way such "evacuation posts"
could be at least partially funded.
Of course, I speculate as someone who knows nothing of the NOLA
region, so maybe the idea is simply not feasible.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those first to step up and say,
"Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
...are quite often to blame....
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
10 Sep 2005 08:04:40 PM |
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--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper,
High Preistess Bastet of the Unchurch Temple of Si & Am
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:fg37i11kondusqn4fplj5cui97j5v4lj7i@4ax.com...
On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:46:33 -0500, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
TV's Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
New Orleans has been described as a "bowl" but a more accurate description
might be a "plate". It is lower in the middle, but the sides are very
shallow. The terrain around Johnstown is more rugged, mountainous terrain
so the relief is much greater.
I can see that as being a problem, but why couldn't "mountains" be
built in the city? Granted it's not easy or cheap, but it's doable,
and they're going to be paying to rebuild some rather significant
portions of the area anyway. In those places where there aren't
people interested in rebuilding homes, couldn't structures be erected
for such a use? They wouldn't need to be exclusively for that
purpose, of course, but structures that also serve such a purpose
could come in useful if such a devastating event happens in the area
again. Johnstown managed to turn its Inclined Plane into somewhat of
an attraction, I'd think that would be one way such "evacuation posts"
could be at least partially funded.
Of course, I speculate as someone who knows nothing of the NOLA
region, so maybe the idea is simply not feasible.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
I was in Boston last year and found out that a good part
of the city was built on mud and sand that was brought
in to fill up areas that were under water originally. If they
could do that, why can't this be done in New Orleans to
fill up at least part of the bowl?
.
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
14 Sep 2005 12:21:46 AM |
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Usenet's Michelle Malkin wrote:
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper,
High Preistess Bastet of the Unchurch Temple of Si & Am
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"Uncle Buck" <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:fg37i11kondusqn4fplj5cui97j5v4lj7i@4ax.com...
On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:46:33 -0500, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
TV's Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all
the way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
New Orleans has been described as a "bowl" but a more accurate
description might be a "plate". It is lower in the middle, but the
sides are very shallow. The terrain around Johnstown is more rugged,
mountainous terrain so the relief is much greater.
I can see that as being a problem, but why couldn't "mountains" be
built in the city? Granted it's not easy or cheap, but it's doable,
and they're going to be paying to rebuild some rather significant
portions of the area anyway. In those places where there aren't
people interested in rebuilding homes, couldn't structures be erected
for such a use? They wouldn't need to be exclusively for that
purpose, of course, but structures that also serve such a purpose
could come in useful if such a devastating event happens in the area
again. Johnstown managed to turn its Inclined Plane into somewhat of
an attraction, I'd think that would be one way such "evacuation posts"
could be at least partially funded.
Of course, I speculate as someone who knows nothing of the NOLA
region, so maybe the idea is simply not feasible.
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
I was in Boston last year and found out that a good part
of the city was built on mud and sand that was brought
in to fill up areas that were under water originally. If they
could do that, why can't this be done in New Orleans to
fill up at least part of the bowl?
From what I understand of the geography of New Orleans, the city was built
on what was originally swampland. The swamps were drained, and the city is
sinking because the removal of the water underneath the city plus the weight
of the city are causing the soil underneath the city to compress. So even
if the city were built up higher, it would still eventually sink.
Another problem is: where do you get all that fill?
If I made any errors or if somebody with better knowledge of southern LA's
geography wants to correct my description, feel free to correct them.
.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
10 Sep 2005 06:55:22 PM |
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Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:fg37i11kondusqn4fplj5cui97j5v4lj7i@4ax.com:
On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:46:33 -0500, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
TV's Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:40hvh1553ufeo6qtf4bjv5aplcb0edfdtd@4ax.com:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is
the Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of
a mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all
the way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding
scenarios. Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good
candidates for a similar solution?
The nearest high ground is a might farther away.
New Orleans has been described as a "bowl" but a more accurate
description might be a "plate". It is lower in the middle, but the
sides are very shallow. The terrain around Johnstown is more rugged,
mountainous terrain so the relief is much greater.
I can see that as being a problem, but why couldn't "mountains" be
built in the city? Granted it's not easy or cheap, but it's doable,
and they're going to be paying to rebuild some rather significant
portions of the area anyway. In those places where there aren't
people interested in rebuilding homes, couldn't structures be erected
for such a use? They wouldn't need to be exclusively for that
purpose, of course, but structures that also serve such a purpose
could come in useful if such a devastating event happens in the area
again. Johnstown managed to turn its Inclined Plane into somewhat of
an attraction, I'd think that would be one way such "evacuation posts"
could be at least partially funded.
Of course, I speculate as someone who knows nothing of the NOLA
region, so maybe the idea is simply not feasible.
New Orleans is actually sinking. If one were to build structures to
house a significant portion of the population of a city, it would end up
being a significant portion of the size of the city. That's a tall
order for something seldom used. And if it's used for some other
purpose, would it be truly available in an emergency, or would it be a
repeat of the Convention Center and the Superdome? I'm not an expert,
but it seems to be a tall order to me.
I think the solution for New Orleans is to (a) don't rebuild at all,
because the city is geophysically doomed or (b) plan for and rebuild
with evacuation in mind, with temporary safe zones that can be supplied
and evacuated rapidly. Over the next century, several severe storms
*will* hit the area.
Shrub has botched things so badly that even a discussion of abandoning
the site is politically impossible. But had everyone (or nearly
everyone) escaped, housed, fed, and treated with dignity, they might
discuss it.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.
-- James Madison
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| User: "Machque" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
10 Sep 2005 06:30:27 PM |
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Uncle Buck wrote:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl". They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime. One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane. It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground. I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually, though no doubt it's
_much_ faster with power. It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
Interesting.
.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and apossible solution? |
10 Sep 2005 07:55:52 PM |
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Uncle Buck wrote:
I grew up 15 miles west of Johnstown, PA. Just Google "Johnstown
floods" and you'll find plenty of material on it. Similar to New
Orleans, Johnstown rests in a valley that essentially amounts to a
"bowl".
New Orleans is more like a saucer.
They've had three major floods that I can think of, one
within my lifetime.
1889, 1936, 1977.
One of the solutions they'd come up with is the
Johnstown Inclined Plane.
<http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/5johnstown/5facts3.htm>
It's simply a trolley on the side of a
mountain which in the event of a flood or evacuation preparations
ferries people to higher ground.
I have ridden on it. It's a long ride. It's a tourist attraction.
It couldn't evacuate a large number of people.
When the 1936 flood came, it carried about 4000 people... probably in 30 to 40 trips and taking 10 hours.
In 1977, it carried perhaps a token number of people <http://www.inclinedplane.com/>.
I believe that in the event of a
power loss, it can even be operated manually,
It has two cars in counterbalance.
But no way could an empty car pull up a loaded car.
The enormous 400 horsepower electric motor is absolutely necessary.
It doesn't even need to take people all the
way to the top of the mountain to escape most flooding scenarios.
Nor does it take very many people.
A six or eight car city subway moves more people many times faster.
Unlike Johnstown, in New Orleans being 30' above sea level would have kept you out of the flooding.
And just being above sea-level would have meant that the water would have receded without pumping.
Might New Orleans and similar southern regions be good candidates for
a similar solution?
Interesting.
Not really.
A major ingredient is missing.
There is nowhere to build one. On flat land there is not much "up" much less a mountain side.
An ordinary light rail tram would work just fine on the flat land there.
No cables are needed.
But the problems remain:
how to get enough transportation capacity,
where to drop people at the other end of the rail line, and
how to get people to take the ride at all.
"According to the statements of people who lived in Johnstown and other towns on the line of the river, ample time was given to the inhabitants of Johnstown by the railroad officials and by other gentlemen of standing and reputation. In hundreds of cases this warning was utterly disregarded, and those who heeded it early in the day were looked upon as cowards, and many jeers were uttered by lips that now are cold. The people of Johnstown also had a special warning in the fact that the dam in Stony Creek, just above the town, broke about noon, and thousands of feet of lumber passed down the river. Yet they hesitated, and even when the wall of water, almost forty feet high, was at their doors, one man is said by a survivor to have told his family that the stream would not rise very high."
-- "History of the Johnstown Flood" by Willis Fletcher Johnson. Edgewood Publishing Company, 1889.
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
13 Sep 2005 02:02:28 AM |
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according to one eyewitness account the waters recede almost
immediately.
are you deliberately skewing 'facts' ?
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and apossible solution? |
13 Sep 2005 08:11:42 AM |
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"Sin Tet Nun" wrote:
according to one eyewitness account the waters receded almost
immediately.
Sure, for those folks further up the side of the saucer the storm surge was like a big wave.
When the wave lost its momentum, it flowed back to the lowest part of the city.
Nonetheless, it was trapped on the wrong side of the wall.
are you deliberately skewing 'facts' ?
In what way?
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| User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and a possible solution? |
14 Sep 2005 03:29:23 AM |
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cantcy wrote:
"Sin Tet Nun" wrote:
according to one eyewitness account the waters receded almost
immediately.
Sure, for those folks further up the side of the saucer the storm surge was like a big wave.
When the wave lost its momentum, it flowed back to the lowest part of the city.
Nonetheless, it was trapped on the wrong side of the wall.
are you deliberately skewing 'facts' ?
In what way?
i did not notice alt.atheism in the group list
i am joking in a sense of course i do not think you are skewing facts
but perhaps playing too much of devil's advocate
one eyewitness report is as good as any alleged account i suppose but
it is somewhat curious that a person says after hurricane is finished
he thought it safe to come out and waters had receded only for n number
hours later the levee to be breached.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?cantc=FF?=" |
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| Title: Re: Johnstown and the Inclined Plane - another flooded city and apossible solution? |
14 Sep 2005 03:38:56 AM |
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"Sin Tet Nun" wrote:
cantcy wrote:
"Sin Tet Nun" wrote:
according to one eyewitness account the waters receded almost
immediately.
Sure, for those folks further up the side of the saucer the storm surge was like a big wave.
When the wave lost its momentum, it flowed back to the lowest part of the city.
Nonetheless, it was trapped on the wrong side of the wall.
are you deliberately skewing 'facts' ?
In what way?
i did not notice alt.atheism in the group list
Nor did you drop it.
i am joking in a sense of course i do not think you are skewing facts
but perhaps playing too much of devil's advocate
Being below sea level next to an ocean is asking for trouble.
In the tropics, it is a recipe for disaster.
one eyewitness report is as good as any alleged account i suppose but
it is somewhat curious that a person says after hurricane is finished
he thought it safe to come out and waters had receded only for n number
hours later the levee to be breached.
The place could have flooded never having received a drop of rain.
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