Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"RainLover"
Date:	16 Nov 2004 12:04:41 PM
Object:	Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)

I suppose the political season took a lot out of me, but I'm feeling
extra hopeless lately, and I want to vent my frustrations here... I'd
love it to just be fellow atheists, but, hey, I know how the
newsgroups work and there are some Christians who smell 'weakness' and
go for the jugular... I don't even care.
In my opinion, 80% of Americans (maybe the world) are sheep, they
simply follow whatever the few tell them to do or think. I don't want
to compare the current Religious Right exactly to Hitler or the Nazi
party, but I must feel like some of the German citizens must have felt
as they watched the Nazi Party gain power back in the early 1930's....
Remember, Hitler was democratically elected.
I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.
I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.
I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.
I listen to Bush say Anything, and the Media simply repeats it as
fact... investigative reporting is all but dead in the USA, and I grew
up being taught that the media was the unofficial '4th branch of
government'.
I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.
I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.
I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.
I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.
Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).
I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER? What is the signal that it's done...that we can go to security
'green'... when we can restore the rights that have, and will, be
taken from US Citizens (as well as Prisoners of the USA.... 3 years
and counting, and no charges against them yet)
Then I come here, to the newsgroups, and read what people have to
say... I realize that the majority HERE (on both sides of the issues)
do not represent the majority in the world, but in any case, I feel
like my voice... our voices... are being drowned out and ignored.
I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth
.

User: "Raptor514"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 04:05:51 PM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

As a history buff (with a degree in Philosphy and History) I would like to
jump in here and correct a commonly-held historical myth. Hitler was
**not** democratically elected.
The Nazis never won more than thirty-seven percent of the popular vote in a
fair election, the last of which came in November 1932. Hitler came to
power with the aid of numerous backroom deals, deliberately collapsing the
government repeatedly, and civil violence committed by the Sturmabteiling
(the Brownshirts, precursors to the SS) which forced the hand of the
(literally senile) Prime Minister Hinderburgh.
Democracy was not responsible for Hitler, the Machiavellian dealings of
unaccountable political elite combined with the thuggish might of a
committed cadre of working class bigots was responsible for Hitler.
Accountability and enlightenment would have prevented the Nazis from ever
being more than a fringe group.
In America today, we are lacking in both.
Raptor514
.

User: "RainLover"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 06:23:22 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:05:51 GMT, "Raptor514"
<Raptor514@SPAMSUCKS.com> wrote:

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

Well then, the Neocons seem to be history buffs too. This is the
first year, but not the last that we will see "republicans" actively
campaigning and even giving money to 3rd parties... Why? Because they
know that the current third parties SPLIT the Democrat Party... do you
really think it would hard to imagine a election with 40% for Dem, 20%
for 3rd party, and the NEOCONS winning with 40% of the popular vote
but taking the electoral college?

Hitler came to
power with the aid of numerous backroom deals, deliberately collapsing the
government repeatedly, and civil violence committed by the Sturmabteiling
(the Brownshirts, precursors to the SS) which forced the hand of the
(literally senile) Prime Minister Hinderburgh.

Don't get me started on backroom deals.

Democracy was not responsible for Hitler, the Machiavellian dealings of

unaccountable political elite combined with the thuggish might of a
committed cadre of working class bigots was responsible for Hitler.

And what do you call it when only millionaires win elections these
days and the odds are 95% chances that incombants will stay in office?
Sounds damn 'elite' to me.
And let's not talk about the working class bigots of the red states.

Accountability and enlightenment would have prevented the Nazis from ever
being more than a fringe group.

In America today, we are lacking in both.

I'm not equating the Neocon Party exactly to the Nazis... the US
constitution (at least as it stands now) will protect the USA from
THAT..... maybe.
Let's talk again when abortion is illegal, homosexuals head back for
the closets, and the TEN COMMANDMENTS and a little christian prayer
are standard in our courtrooms.
James, Seattle
.

User: "Raptor514"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 08:20:14 PM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:l16lp05he4ubvitckii60jsosun48uqjnh@4ax.com...

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:05:51 GMT, "Raptor514"
<Raptor514@SPAMSUCKS.com> wrote:

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

As a history buff (with a degree in Philosphy and History) I would like

jump in here and correct a commonly-held historical myth. Hitler was
**not** democratically elected.

The Nazis never won more than thirty-seven percent of the popular vote in

fair election, the last of which came in November 1932.

Personally, I think we should go to a multi-party parliamentary government
with proportional party representation. That would give each party seats in
accordance with how many votes they got, thus truly mirroring the will of
the people. The Christian conservatives could get theirs, the libertarians
could have some, the environmentalists, constitutionalists, greens,
republicans, democrats, liberals, socialists, communists, fascists,
whatever--would all be represented according to how many people voted for
them. This would bear great resemblance to a true democracy.
And the odds of it happening are about the same as John Ashcroft becoming a
gangsta rapper.

Hitler came to
power with the aid of numerous backroom deals, deliberately collapsing

the

government repeatedly, and civil violence committed by the Sturmabteiling
(the Brownshirts, precursors to the SS) which forced the hand of the
(literally senile) Prime Minister Hinderburgh.

Don't get me started on backroom deals.

Democracy was not responsible for Hitler, the Machiavellian dealings of

unaccountable political elite combined with the thuggish might of a
committed cadre of working class bigots was responsible for Hitler.

And what do you call it when only millionaires win elections these
days and the odds are 95% chances that incombants will stay in office?
Sounds damn 'elite' to me.

Damn right it's elite.

And let's not talk about the working class bigots of the red states.

Bigotry is in all classes, but it does tend to concentrate at the bottom,
like dirt settling to the bottom of a pool.

Accountability and enlightenment would have prevented the Nazis from ever
being more than a fringe group.

In America today, we are lacking in both.

I'm not equating the Neocon Party exactly to the Nazis... the US
constitution (at least as it stands now) will protect the USA from
THAT..... maybe.

The constitution means exactly what SCOTUS says it means. Given twenty or
thirty years of two or three W. Bush appointees on the Supreme Court--the
consequences could be horrifying. We do however, have time and hope.

Let's talk again when abortion is illegal, homosexuals head back for
the closets, and the TEN COMMANDMENTS and a little christian prayer
are standard in our courtrooms.

They'll have to steamroll over my dead carcass. . .which might well happen.
I saw the sharp edge of the police state at the Republican National
Convention protests and it's damn intimidating. The true face of state
power is obscured by a riot helmet and, in the end, it all comes down to
you, a cop, and how you handle the situation when he tries to arrest you for
actually having the nerve to apply the First Amendment as intended.
Live free or die fighting.
Dave, Dallas

James, Seattle

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 04:08:21 PM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

I suppose the political season took a lot out of me, but I'm feeling
extra hopeless lately,

it'll pass
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6417285/
and I want to vent my frustrations here... I'd

love it to just be fellow atheists, but, hey, I know how the
newsgroups work and there are some Christians who smell 'weakness' and
go for the jugular...

that'd be me
I don't even care.
good

In my opinion, 80% of Americans (maybe the world) are sheep, they
simply follow whatever the few tell them to do or think.

.......and of course that wouldn't be you
never mind that:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
VOTE BY EDUCATION BUSH KERRY
Bush Kerrry
TOTAL 2004 2004
No High School (4%) 49% 50%
H.S. Graduate (22%) 52% 47%
Some College (32%) 54% 46%
College Graduate (26%) 52% 46%
Postgrad Study (16%) 44% 55%
VOTE BY EDUCATION BUSH KERRY
No College Degree (58%) 53% 47%
College Graduate (42%) 49% 49%
I don't want

to compare the current Religious Right exactly to Hitler or the Nazi
party, but I must feel like some of the German citizens must have felt
as they watched the Nazi Party gain power back in the early 1930's....
Remember, Hitler was democratically elected.

Maybe traditionalist are sick and tired of having liberals federal judge
shopping to crame agendas down their traditional throat. How long can they
beat up on, say, the Boy Scouts before they ***** off most americans?

I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.

Four years ago it was the "angry white men" who got Bush elected. Now the
liberals have morphed them into the right-wing, religious zealots. Are 44%
of postgrads religious zealots along with the other 52% of college grads,
and the 54% of some college? I don't think so.

I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.

I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.

Maybe now you can empathies with tradionalist who had liberal agendas shoved
up their ***** by liberal federal judges.

I listen to Bush say Anything, and the Media simply repeats it as
fact... investigative reporting is all but dead in the USA, and I grew
up being taught that the media was the unofficial '4th branch of
government'.

now it's a wing of the DNC

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

Neoconservative: a once liberal turned concervative.
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=neoconservative

I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.

Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).

I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER? What is the signal that it's done...that we can go to security
'green'... when we can restore the rights that have, and will, be
taken from US Citizens (as well as Prisoners of the USA.... 3 years
and counting, and no charges against them yet)

Then I come here, to the newsgroups, and read what people have to
say... I realize that the majority HERE (on both sides of the issues)
do not represent the majority in the world, but in any case, I feel
like my voice... our voices... are being drowned out and ignored.

I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.

take a chill pill and live a few more years. The more time moves on the more
things seem to stay the same. In the 60's and 70's my dad thought the whole
country went to ***** due to all the liberal ideology that had been
pushed...not to mention my long hair. I remember feminist telling us how
they were the measure of any man and tried to be more masculine in their
actions to prove it, Or that masculine/feminine behavior was socialized into
blank slate babies (never mind science now and even then had evidence that
it's biological) but by the 90's feminism morph into "we have to get men in
touch with their feminine side". The country is tired of the liberal agenda
and is simply pushing back for the time being. Not everybody wants your
wished for country.
.

User: "Tock"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 01:06:10 PM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

I know what ya mean . . .
Over the years, I've developed a thick skin to that sort of stuff, and
learned how to debate fundamentalists into corners (so all that time spent
preparing to teach Sunday School wasn't a complete waste of time). But ya,
they can be vicious, for sure.

In my opinion, 80% of Americans (maybe the world) are sheep, they
simply follow whatever the few tell them to do or think.

Ya, sometimes I think Darwin was partly right . . . humans didn't evolve
from apes, but from sheep . . .

I don't want
to compare the current Religious Right exactly to Hitler or the Nazi
party,

There are notable similarities. Mindless mobs, blindly following other
mobs, unthinking and uncaring about their actions. Ugh.

but I must feel like some of the German citizens must have felt
as they watched the Nazi Party gain power back in the early 1930's....
Remember, Hitler was democratically elected.

Yep, I hear ya . . .

I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.

I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.

It's a setback, for sure. But then again, look how far we've come in 30
years. Back then, Dallas cops would bring paddy wagons to gay bars, and
arrest everyone inside, then release names and addresses to the local paper
and to their employers. Now, we've got the Dallas Police Chief appearing
in the local Gay Pride Parade.
Ya, things are better now, and they'll continue to get better. But it
won't be easy, and as President Clinton told Monica Lewinsky, "Not every day
can be Christmas." But after the bitter struggle is over and done
with--and it may take 50 or 100 years--things will be ok.

I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.

Oh ya . . . Bush will appoint some more idiots like Thomas and Scalia,
they'll outlaw abortion, make school prayer mandatory, and other stuff, and
Americans will get riled up over this stuff and blame the fundamentalists,
and then we'll get a string of more progressive politicans to undo this
madness. But then, the crazies in the progressive movement will get out of
control, and they'll antagonize everyone by going too far to the other side,
and voters will slap them out of office too.
That's just the way US politics works. Reacts to problems instead of
preventing them. Oh well.

Yep. They're owned by the big corporations. My guess is that when they
get their fill of fundamentalist excess, they'll turn on them, make 'em look
like the "children of Satan" that they really are.

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

Oh ya . . . that government policy alone is gonna cause lots of problems
with US POW's down the road, for sure. We'll live to regret that bit of
stupidity.

I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.

Sad, ain't it?

Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).

I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER? What is the signal that it's done...that we can go to security
'green'... when we can restore the rights that have, and will, be
taken from US Citizens (as well as Prisoners of the USA.... 3 years
and counting, and no charges against them yet)

Then I come here, to the newsgroups, and read what people have to
say... I realize that the majority HERE (on both sides of the issues)
do not represent the majority in the world, but in any case, I feel
like my voice... our voices... are being drowned out and ignored.

We shall overcome. Then be overcome. Then overcome again, etc etc etc . .
..

I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.

Americans won't like theocracy very much, I don't think. Most people like
to feel as if they're following the Bible's rules on stuff, but once Jerry
Falwell & his ilk start setting social norms, they'll come down pretty fast.

James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

You might consider moving off the planet for a while until the place gets
remodeled . . .
-Tock
.

User: "Dale"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 11:18:10 PM

"Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ccsmd.33987$Al3.33653@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
[...]

paper

and to their employers. Now, we've got the Dallas Police Chief appearing
in the local Gay Pride Parade.

What's more, our newly elected Dallas County Sheriff is an Hispanic lesbian.
And yet we still went 50.3% for Bush.
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 02:56:18 AM

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 05:18:10 GMT, "Dale" <dmgreer@nspm.airmail.net>
wrote:

"Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ccsmd.33987$Al3.33653@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
[...]

paper

and to their employers. Now, we've got the Dallas Police Chief appearing
in the local Gay Pride Parade.

What's more, our newly elected Dallas County Sheriff is an Hispanic lesbian.
And yet we still went 50.3% for Bush.

Reminds me of my racist uncle after he found I had an (Asian) indian
girlfriend, and my sister married a Jew - two of his favourite hates.
"The plumber was Indian, but he's OK", "The storekeeper was a Jew but
he was OK".
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 03:06:40 PM

"Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ccsmd.33987$Al3.33653@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:35ekp0ppcjhh8dt4sf9hm3k68deboop7ie@4ax.com...

(snip)

Oh ya . . . Bush will appoint some more idiots like Thomas and Scalia,
they'll outlaw abortion, make school prayer mandatory, and other stuff,
and Americans will get riled up over this stuff and blame the
fundamentalists, and then we'll get a string of more progressive
politicans to undo this madness. But then, the crazies in the
progressive movement will get out of control, and they'll antagonize
everyone by going too far to the other side, and voters will slap them out
of office too.
That's just the way US politics works. Reacts to problems instead of
preventing them. Oh well.

(snip)
I hope you're right Tock. I really hope you're right.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 05:12:58 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:06:40 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:

Oh ya . . . Bush will appoint some more idiots like Thomas and Scalia,
they'll outlaw abortion, make school prayer mandatory, and other stuff,
and Americans will get riled up over this stuff and blame the
fundamentalists, and then we'll get a string of more progressive
politicans to undo this madness. But then, the crazies in the
progressive movement will get out of control, and they'll antagonize
everyone by going too far to the other side, and voters will slap them out
of office too.
That's just the way US politics works. Reacts to problems instead of
preventing them. Oh well.

I hope you're right Tock. I really hope you're right.

Kennedy/Johnson in Vietnam, and 'rat willie v obl all thought that a measure response
could be used. See what it got us.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 05:11:32 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:06:10 GMT, "Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

go for the jugular... I don't even care.

I know what ya mean . . .
Over the years, I've developed a thick skin to that sort of stuff, and
learned how to debate fundamentalists into corners (so all that time spent
preparing to teach Sunday School wasn't a complete waste of time). But ya,
they can be vicious, for sure.

Gee, I didn't know you could do that. Lets talk something.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "Tock"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 10:58:39 PM

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:e72lp0dcc4jqb0c78v6lj1ivp51r1g1bde@4ax.com...

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:06:10 GMT, "Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Gee, I didn't know you could do that. Lets talk something.

Sure, name your poison . . .
-Tock
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 05:36:17 PM

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:58:39 GMT, "Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Sure, name your poison . . .
-Tock

John 20:19-23.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "wbarwell"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	18 Nov 2004 10:43:06 AM

duke wrote:

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 04:58:39 GMT, "Tock" <tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Sure, name your poison . . .
-Tock

John 20:19-23.

Mark 16:14 & 19.
Luke 24:50-1
Matthew 28:10 & 16.
Gee, they all say something completely diffrent!
And the idiots don't notice!
Poison? That's Mark 16:18.
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Meteorite Debris"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 08:26:17 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:04:41 -0800 the ET form known as RainLover<SP-
AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
<snipped>

I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER?

The neocons say decades. The problem is definition. How do you fight a
abstract noun? What the abstract noun means can shift with what is
politically needed. At the moment the neocons want "broad spectrum
dominance" on land, sea, air and space. Of course this does not come
without upsetting people, some of whom will become terrorists in
opposition, others of whom will support terrorists (more important to
the viability of terrorism than even the terrorists), others who
oppose such an agenda can be called terrorists anyway even if they are
not. In addition the "war on terrorism" is also an energy policy,
grabbing control of energy sources and kicking all before them in the
teeth.
As the energy supply problem become more acute so the "war on
terrorism" will become more ruthless. A preemptive nuclear attack on a
non-nuclear state on fabricated grounds becomes very likely. This may
sound alarmist but bear in mind how severe the problems of energy
stress will become and the Bush promise that the "American way of life
is not negotiable". That promise is a threat to the entire world. The
formula is simple - SUVs in exchange for nukes.

--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 05:10:18 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:04:41 -0800, RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:

I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.
I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.

They don't have such rights now. How can they be taken away?

I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.

Historically, SC judges are much more rounded than anticipated.

That's a problem. It shouldn't be, but 'rat willie tamed it to be his personal voice.

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

Nah, you're letting other 'rats suck you in.

I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.

Heck yes I feel safer. Thank you President Bush.

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

I don't know anyone that says that.

I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.

"Code words" - you're a joke.

Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).

Thank JJackson, Superbowl performer, for that problem. She's a 'rat.

I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER?

Certainly not as long as you 'rats protect them.

What is the signal that it's done...that we can go to security
'green'... when we can restore the rights that have, and will, be
taken from US Citizens (as well as Prisoners of the USA.... 3 years
and counting, and no charges against them yet)

They are not US citizens. They are combatants or terrorists, and don't have citizenship
right.

Then I come here, to the newsgroups, and read what people have to
say... I realize that the majority HERE (on both sides of the issues)
do not represent the majority in the world, but in any case, I feel
like my voice... our voices... are being drowned out and ignored.
I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

Sleep tight tonight. President George Bush is protecting you.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "RainLover"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 06:31:24 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:10:18 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

I don't know anyone that says that.

Then you don't have a clue who is in charge of our nation..... John
Ashcroft approved 'waterboarding' prisoners to get information out of
them, and Alberto Gonzales feels that the Geneva conventions don't
even apply in many cases.
I don't care if it's an official prisoner of war, a supposed
'terrorist' plucked off the street or a U.S. Citizen.... torture is
wrong.
Even worse, by ignoring the Conventions or inventing 'loopholes' for
ourselves, the USA is setting up future U.S. military POWs for horrors
that we will have no right to complain about.
James, Seattle
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	18 Nov 2004 09:14:15 AM

"RainLover" <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote in message
news:am6lp0lkffqiu551omqap7p1qg7r4oc9cu@4ax.com...

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:10:18 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

I don't know anyone that says that.

Maybe you should learn how the Geneva Convention holds up with these
fuckers.
<hint> I DOES NOT APPLY since the Iraqis are following the rules of war by
the GC.
http://www.genevaconventions.org/
combatant status
Combatants have protections under the Geneva Conventions, as well as
obligations. <ob-li-ga-tions>
Convention I offers protections to wounded combatants, who are defined as
members of the armed forces of a party to an international conflict, members
of militias or volunteer corps including members of organized resistance
movements as long as they have a well-defined chain of command, are clearly
distinguishable from the civilian population, carry their arms openly, and
obey the laws of war. (Convention I, Art. 13, Sec. 1 and Sec. 2)

I don't care if it's an official prisoner of war, a supposed
'terrorist' plucked off the street or a U.S. Citizen.... torture is
wrong.

Even worse, by ignoring the Conventions or inventing 'loopholes' for
ourselves, the USA is setting up future U.S. military POWs for horrors
that we will have no right to complain about.

James, Seattle

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 05:39:54 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:31:24 -0800, RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:

I don't know anyone that says that.

Then you don't have a clue who is in charge of our nation.....

Sure I do - the American public.

John
Ashcroft approved 'waterboarding' prisoners to get information out of
them, and Alberto Gonzales feels that the Geneva conventions don't
even apply in many cases.

The Geneva conventions don't apply when making chocolate cake. Did you have anything in
mind?

I don't care if it's an official prisoner of war, a supposed
'terrorist' plucked off the street or a U.S. Citizen.... torture is
wrong.

Obsolutely.
Abu Garib is a good example of what happens when a soldier steps out of line.

Even worse, by ignoring the Conventions or inventing 'loopholes' for
ourselves, the USA is setting up future U.S. military POWs for horrors
that we will have no right to complain about.
James, Seattle

Like what?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "Rally"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 06:13:14 PM

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i6onp09s5meehq4nkanlh8ngcr9emon8q2@4ax.com...

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:31:24 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:

I don't know anyone that says that.

Then you don't have a clue who is in charge of our nation.....

Sure I do - the American public.

John
Ashcroft approved 'waterboarding' prisoners to get information out of
them, and Alberto Gonzales feels that the Geneva conventions don't
even apply in many cases.

The Geneva conventions don't apply when making chocolate cake. Did you
have anything in
mind?

I don't care if it's an official prisoner of war, a supposed
'terrorist' plucked off the street or a U.S. Citizen.... torture is
wrong.

Obsolutely.

<snip>
Obsolutely?
The freekin' "a" and "o" key are so far apart, this cannot be a typo...
Help us Duke, Is this more like obtuse, or obsolete?
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.

User: "Harry F. Leopold"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	18 Nov 2004 10:03:58 AM

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 18:13:14 -0600, Rally wrote
(in article <419be985$1_2@127.0.0.1>):

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:i6onp09s5meehq4nkanlh8ngcr9emon8q2@4ax.com...

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:31:24 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:

I don't know anyone that says that.

Then you don't have a clue who is in charge of our nation.....

Sure I do - the American public.

John
Ashcroft approved 'waterboarding' prisoners to get information out of
them, and Alberto Gonzales feels that the Geneva conventions don't
even apply in many cases.

The Geneva conventions don't apply when making chocolate cake. Did you
have anything in
mind?

I don't care if it's an official prisoner of war, a supposed
'terrorist' plucked off the street or a U.S. Citizen.... torture is
wrong.

Obsolutely.

<snip>

Obsolutely?
The freekin' "a" and "o" key are so far apart, this cannot be a typo...
Help us Duke, Is this more like obtuse, or obsolete?

He *could* be using a Dvorak keyboard, "a" and "o" are right next to each
other. I really doubt he is using one, but at least it is a possibility.
(I use one, I don't see why more don't use it.)
Personally I think he is just as stupid as he comes across on the newsgroup.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
Campus Crusade for Cthulhu Supporter
.

User: "dgillesp"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bearwith me)	17 Nov 2004 06:03:10 PM

duke wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:04:41 -0800, RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:

<snip>

Sleep tight tonight. President George Bush is protecting you.

"Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help." Ps 146.3

duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

" The Lord ... is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL
should reach repentance." 2 Pet 3.9
denny (methodios)

*****

User: "MarkA"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 02:48:52 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 10:04:41 -0800, RainLover wrote:

<snip>
It's kinda funny that one of the most technologically advanced countries
in the world is largely inhabited by superstitious rubes. You just hafta
learn to find the humor in these things.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 05:13:31 PM

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:48:52 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:

It's kinda funny that one of the most technologically advanced countries
in the world is largely inhabited by superstitious rubes. You just hafta
learn to find the humor in these things.

Why, what "superstition" are you thinking about?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "Woden wodencharternet"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 08:12:32 PM

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in news:5c2lp011tgqijnnr6901i226b6a8es8eq6
@4ax.com:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:48:52 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:

It's kinda funny that one of the most technologically advanced countries
in the world is largely inhabited by superstitious rubes. You just hafta
learn to find the humor in these things.

Why, what "superstition" are you thinking about?

As long as you persist in your willful ignorance, you'll never figure that
one out.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 05:37:06 PM

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 02:12:32 -0000, Woden <wodencharternet> wrote:

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in news:5c2lp011tgqijnnr6901i226b6a8es8eq6
@4ax.com:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:48:52 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote:

It's kinda funny that one of the most technologically advanced countries
in the world is largely inhabited by superstitious rubes. You just hafta
learn to find the humor in these things.

Why, what "superstition" are you thinking about?

As long as you persist in your willful ignorance, you'll never figure that
one out.

ok, I didn't think you had anything to say
..
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.

User: "nJb"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bearwith me)	16 Nov 2004 05:29:44 PM

RainLover wrote:

SNIPPAGE

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

Does anybody have a link to Bush's quote regarding this?
Jack
.

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	17 Nov 2004 06:29:25 PM

nJb <NoNHL@all.com> wrote in message news:<419A8D68.C404EE3A@all.com>...

RainLover wrote:

SNIPPAGE

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

Does anybody have a link to Bush's quote regarding this?

Jack

It was the elder George Bush. The current idiot's father.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm
http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html
jwk
.

User: "Tink"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (pleasebear with me)	16 Nov 2004 03:56:49 PM

RainLover wrote:

I think it's time WE went for the jugular. I mean, how did we EVER
allow an alcoholic C student to be put into the position of having his
finger on the nuclear (a word he can't even pronounce) trigger?

In my opinion, 80% of Americans (maybe the world) are sheep, they
simply follow whatever the few tell them to do or think. I don't want
to compare the current Religious Right exactly to Hitler or the Nazi
party, but I must feel like some of the German citizens must have felt
as they watched the Nazi Party gain power back in the early 1930's....
Remember, Hitler was democratically elected.

Herr Hitler received 13 million votes. The other five parties received
16 million. Thus, the fallacy of a multi party system that does not
allow for a run off.

I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.

Yeah, they didn't learn anything from the dark ages OR the present day
theocracies. If theocracies were a great thing, there would be lines,
long lines, at the immigration offices for those places. I stead there
are lines at the secular democracies.

I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.

Isn't it scary to watch as bigotry gets the force of law? Why is the
left not going apeshit over this? Are we THAT afraid of the churches?

I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. When Shrubya gets done with the SCOTUS, the
constitution won't stand a chance.

The Neocons got the ***** scared out of them after Watergate. They, to
their credit, say the problem and set about fixing it. They
systematically bought up as many media outlets as possible. They
changed the content to be entertainment based as opposed to fact based
and maintain a near total control of content. That way they will never
have to worry about a pesky reporter toppling a regime again. Sadly, we
allowed it to happen right under our noses. We didn't even see the huge
pink elephant sitting on the couch.

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

First, it was Shurbya's dad that said that. Second, the only saving
grace we have in that regard is that the X-tains would fight amongst
themselves so fiercely that they would never get anything done if they
were to be in charge.

I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.

Yeah, we just have to make soccer moms fell safe. Even if it means
ignoring the real threat.

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

Yeah, that little thing called the Geneva Convention is rather
inconvenient isn't it?

I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.

Again why aren't we, and what's left of out elected officials, going
apeshit over this?

Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).

Just goes to prove that noecons are hypocrites. They claim to want
freedom, but will chicken out at the first sign of a fight. This would
be an easily won victory. There are reams of case law that would
destroy utterly any mechanism the state would have to censor. The
networks, cable, radio and newspapers have MORE than enough resources to
wage the fight, but, for some reason, chicken out. Go figure.

I listen to the war drums beating louder and louder... I'm not an
utter pacifist, but answer me this: WHEN WILL THE "WAR ON TERROR" BE
OVER? What is the signal that it's done...that we can go to security
'green'... when we can restore the rights that have, and will, be
taken from US Citizens (as well as Prisoners of the USA.... 3 years
and counting, and no charges against them yet)

Mike Moore said it best: " you can't wage war on a noun..." This war,
like all other wars on nouns (poverty, hunger, drugs, etc...)is doomed
to failure.

Even here, we have to tolerate unwanted and unwelcome x-tain hypocrites.
They seem to only want ot shout us down. They want to win, whether or
not they are right. The sad part is that facts, logic, science and
truth are remarkably ineffective weapons to fight belief based stupidity
with.

I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.

Coming soon to a country near you: The United States of X-tianity.

James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

--
Skydivers don't knock on death's door; they ring the bell and run
away... It really pisses him off.
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
.

User: "Scott"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (please bear with me)	16 Nov 2004 05:00:23 PM

"Tink" <kjgrish@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:iPudnQ721MA-6gfcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

RainLover wrote:

I think it's time WE went for the jugular. I mean, how did we EVER allow
an alcoholic C student to be put into the position of having his finger on
the nuclear (a word he can't even pronounce) trigger?

Just keep telling yourself "bush made better grades than Al Gore did at
Yale"

Herr Hitler received 13 million votes. The other five parties received 16
million. Thus, the fallacy of a multi party system that does not allow
for a run off.

I watch as the Christian Right and Government become more and more
entangled into one entity.

I watch as people take away the chance (for now) of gay couples to get
married.

Isn't it scary to watch as bigotry gets the force of law? Why is the left
not going apeshit over this? Are we THAT afraid of the churches?

I watch as some political and religious leaders froth at the mouth in
excitement over getting to place 1 to 4 Supreme Court Justices in the
court.

Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. When Shrubya gets done with the SCOTUS, the
constitution won't stand a chance.

The Neocons got the ***** scared out of them after Watergate. They, to
their credit, say the problem and set about fixing it. They
systematically bought up as many media outlets as possible. They changed
the content to be entertainment based as opposed to fact based and
maintain a near total control of content. That way they will never have
to worry about a pesky reporter toppling a regime again. Sadly, we
allowed it to happen right under our noses. We didn't even see the huge
pink elephant sitting on the couch.

I listen to the Neocons (as opposed to plain ol' good 'republicans')
say that the USA is a CHRISTIAN NATION and some (Bush for one) have
said that Atheists aren't even true Americans.

First, it was Shurbya's dad that said that. Second, the only saving grace
we have in that regard is that the X-tains would fight amongst themselves
so fiercely that they would never get anything done if they were to be in
charge.

I see 'security' getting tighter and tighter, and on the 'news' all we
see are man-on-the-street interviews about how much safer they now
feel and would like to see more random searches of citizens.

Yeah, we just have to make soccer moms fell safe. Even if it means
ignoring the real threat.

I see people in government who say that torture is okay.... if it
makes us 'safer'.

Yeah, that little thing called the Geneva Convention is rather
inconvenient isn't it?

I listen to top government officials addressing right wing religious
groups, and using all the 'code words' to get their points across.

Again why aren't we, and what's left of out elected officials, going
apeshit over this?

Networks aren't showing movies because they are afraid of government
sanctions (saving private Ryan).

Just goes to prove that noecons are hypocrites. They claim to want
freedom, but will chicken out at the first sign of a fight. This would be
an easily won victory. There are reams of case law that would destroy
utterly any mechanism the state would have to censor. The networks,
cable, radio and newspapers have MORE than enough resources to wage the
fight, but, for some reason, chicken out. Go figure.

Mike Moore said it best: " you can't wage war on a noun..." This war,
like all other wars on nouns (poverty, hunger, drugs, etc...)is doomed to
failure.

Even here, we have to tolerate unwanted and unwelcome x-tain hypocrites.
They seem to only want ot shout us down. They want to win, whether or not
they are right. The sad part is that facts, logic, science and truth are
remarkably ineffective weapons to fight belief based stupidity with.

I'm watch as our nation marches in lockstep towards a theocracy and an
empire in all but name.

Coming soon to a country near you: The United States of X-tianity.

James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth

--
Skydivers don't knock on death's door; they ring the bell and run away...
It really pisses him off.

The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.

User: "Nivlem"
Title: Re: Just voicing my frustrations with the religious right (pleasebear with me)	17 Nov 2004 11:47:54 PM

Scott wrote:

"Tink" <kjgrish@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:iPudnQ721MA-6gfcRVn-vg@comcast.com...

RainLover wrote:

I think it's time WE went for the jugular. I mean, how did we EVER allow
an alcoholic C student to be put into the position of having his finger on
the nuclear (a word he can't even pronounce) trigger?

Just keep telling yourself "bush made better grades than Al Gore did at
Yale"

That was then. Now, it looks to me like Shrub's got some problems with
alcoholic dementia.

Page 1 of 2

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