| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Gastrich" |
| Date: |
26 Mar 2005 12:51:30 AM |
| Object: |
Just Walk Away |
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 90,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: aa TQOTM Nomination! (was Re: Just Walk Away) |
26 Mar 2005 01:02:49 PM |
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In our last episode <p1bb41lqdr0igl5h1vqdkp3l9egjolgkv8@4ax.com>, raven1
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net> wrote:
<In response to Jason Gasbag's usual tripe, Denny gained a world of
respect in my eyes with the following exchange:>
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
<Begin nominated section>:
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with
"fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among
them. However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for
Christ's sake and just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning
posts to atheists and agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian
faith. With friends who do that sort of thing, God is in no need of
enemies.
Would that more theists felt the same! Seconds?
Second!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: aa TQOTM Nomination! (was Re: Just Walk Away) |
27 Mar 2005 07:31:49 AM |
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In article <YrmdneW-UplELNjfRVn-sg@megapath.net>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <p1bb41lqdr0igl5h1vqdkp3l9egjolgkv8@4ax.com>, raven1
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net> wrote:
<In response to Jason Gasbag's usual tripe, Denny gained a world of
respect in my eyes with the following exchange:>
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
<Begin nominated section>:
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with
"fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among
them. However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for
Christ's sake and just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning
posts to atheists and agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian
faith. With friends who do that sort of thing, God is in no need of
enemies.
Would that more theists felt the same! Seconds?
Second!
Recorded.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
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| Title: Re: aa TQOTM Nomination! (was Re: Just Walk Away) |
26 Mar 2005 01:14:43 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:44:27 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<In response to Jason Gasbag's usual tripe, Denny gained a world of
respect in my eyes with the following exchange:>
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
<Begin nominated section>:
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with "fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among them.
However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for Christ's sake and
just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning posts to atheists and
agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian faith. With friends who do
that sort of thing, God is in no need of enemies.
Would that more theists felt the same! Seconds?
From the looks of things, more theists do feel the same, as in
"Jason... Stop... Helping..."
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1527 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: aa TQOTM Nomination! (was Re: Just Walk Away) |
27 Mar 2005 02:42:15 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:14:43 -0800, "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's
Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:44:27 GMT, raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
<In response to Jason Gasbag's usual tripe, Denny gained a world of
respect in my eyes with the following exchange:>
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
<Begin nominated section>:
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with "fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among them.
However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for Christ's sake and
just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning posts to atheists and
agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian faith. With friends who do
that sort of thing, God is in no need of enemies.
Would that more theists felt the same! Seconds?
From the looks of things, more theists do feel the same, as in
"Jason... Stop... Helping..."
I imagine God would feel the same.
For every person the arrogant and aggressive Christian turns from the
faith there would probably be an acounting.
Dedicated to the Christian who outranks God:
ST. PETER AT THE GATE
By Joseph Bert Smiley
St. Peter stood guard at the golden gate,
With a solemn mien and an air sedate,
When up to the top of the golden stair
A man and a woman ascending there,
Applied for admission, they came and stood
In hopes the City of Peace to win--
And asked St. Peter to let them in.
The woman was tall, and lank, and thin,
With a scraggy beardlet upon her chin.
The man was short, and thick, and stout,
His stomach was built so it rounded out;
His face was pleasant, and all the while
He wore a kindly and genial smile
The choirs in the distance the echoes awoke.
And the man kept still while the woman spoke:
"O thou who guardest the gate!" said she,
"We two come hither, beseeching thee
To let us enter the heavenly land
And play our harps with the angel band.
Of me, St. Peter, there is no doubt,
There's nothing from heaven to bar me out.
I've been to meetings three times a week,
And almost always I'd rise and speak.
"I've told the sinners about the day
When they'd repent of their evil way,
I've told my neighbors--I've told them all
Bout Adam and Eve, and the Primal Fall.
I've shown them what they'd have to do
If they'd pass in with the chosen few:
I've marked their path of duty clear--
Laid out the plan for their whole career.
"I've talked and talked to 'em, loud and long,
For my lungs are good and my voice is strong,
So, good St. Peter, you'll clearly see
The gate of heaven is open to me.
But my old man, I regret to say,
Hasn't walked in exactly the narrow way,
He smokes and he swears, and grave faults he's got,
And I don't know whether he'll pass or not.
"He never would pray with an earnest vim,
Or go to revivals or join in a hymn,
So I had to leave him in sorrow there
While I, with the chosen, united in prayer.
He ate what the pantry chanced to afford,
While I, in my purity, sang to the Lord.
And if cucumbers were all he got,
Its a chance if he merited them or not.
"But O St. Peter! I love him so,
To the pleasures of heaven please let him go!
I've done enough--a saint I've been.
Won't that atone? can't you let him in?
By my grim gospel I know tis' so
That the unrepentant must fry below.
But isn't there some way you can see,
That he may enter, who's so dear to me?
Its a narrow gospel by which I pray
But the chosen expect to find some way,
Of coaxing or of bribing you ,
So that their relations can amble through.
And Say, St. Peter, It seems to me,
This gate isn't kept as ought to be,
You ought to stand by the opening there
And never sit down in an easy chair
And say, St. Peter my sight is dimmed
But I don't like the way your whiskers are trimmed.
They're cut too wide, and outward toss,
They'd look better narrow, cut straight across,
Well.., we must be going our crowns to win,
So open, St. Peter, and we'll pass in."
St. Peter sat quiet and stroked his staff,
But in spite of his office, he had to laugh,
Then said with a fiery gleam in his eye:
Whos tending this gateway--you or I?"
And then he arose in stature tall,
And pressed a button upon the wall,
And said to the imp who answered the bell
"Escort this lady down to hell!"
The man stood still as a piece of stone--
Stood sadly, gloomily there alone.
A life-long, settled idea he had
That his wife was good and he was bad.
That he would certainly have to go--
That if she went to the regions dim
There wasn't a ghost of a show for him.
Slowly he turned, by habit bent
To follow wherever the woman went.
St. Peter, standing on duty there,
Observed that the top of his head was bare.
He called the gentleman back and said:
"Friend, how long have you been wed?"
"Thirty years" (with a weary sigh).
And then he thoughtfully added : "Why?"
St. Peter was silent, with head bent down,
He raised his hand and scratched his crown,
Then seeming a different thought to take,
Slowly, half to himself , he spake:
"Thirty years with that woman there?
No wonder the man has lost his hair!
Swearing is wicked, smokings not good.
He smoked and swore--I should think he would!
"Thirty years with that tongue so sharp?
Ho! Angel Gabriel! Give him a harp!
A jeweled harp with golden strings
Good sir, pass in where the angels sing!
Gabriel, give him a seat alone--
One with a cushion--up near the throne!
Call up some angels to play their best,
Let him enjoy the music and rest!
See that on finest ambrosia he feeds:
He's had about all the hell he needs,
It isn't just hardly the thing to do
To roast him on earth and the future, too.
They gave him a harp with golden strings,
A glittering robe, and a pair of wings,
And he said as he entered the Realm of Day:
"Well, this beats cucumbers, anyway!"
And so the Scriptures have come to pass--
"The last shall be first and the first shall be last."
atheist@home#1554
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1527 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 11:25:08 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with "fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among them.
However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for Christ's sake and
just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning posts to atheists and
agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian faith. With friends who do
that sort of thing, God is in no need of enemies.
Denny
The man has a major mental health problem. Probably the best
response to him is to just tell him to get some help. Anything else,
IMO just encourages him to repeatedly act out.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 10:26:10 PM |
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"Kate " <cobalt@newscene.com> wrote in message
news:428e9a22.844141703@news-west.newscene.com...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:44:59 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net>
wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with
"fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among
them.
However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for Christ's sake
and
just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning posts to atheists
and
agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian faith. With friends who
do
that sort of thing, God is in no need of enemies.
Denny
The man has a major mental health problem. Probably the best
response to him is to just tell him to get some help. Anything else,
IMO just encourages him to repeatedly act out.
And he is a father - Scary
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 12:44:05 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
As a Christian theist, I am not at all tired of being associated with "fools
for Christ's sake" (1Cor 4.10). And I assume you count yourself among them.
However, there is an enormous difference in being a fool for Christ's sake and
just being "a damn fool." Your insulting and demeaning posts to atheists and
agnostics only serve to discredit our Christian faith. With friends who do
that sort of thing, God is in no need of enemies.
Denny
OOoooooo, better watch out there Denny. You'll end up on Jason's, "not
a real christian" list. And we all know what happens when you find
yourself on a Jason list.
You generally end up laughing harder then you have laughed for a long time.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Just Mark" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 04:06:44 PM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this
group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know
have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have
the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings
you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and
even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with
you.
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
You know, I think this is actually beginning to work on me.
I'm feeling a stirring...way down deep...and I think I may need to walk
away from my disbe--...no, wait...it was only gas.
'scuze me.
Just Mark
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 02:08:14 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
I want to believe. What evidence are you talking about?
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this
group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know
have
suddenly disappeared?
Er, no.
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
Chritians?
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have
the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings
you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here.
Actually I am seeking evidence for the creator, not only here but many
other places. Where is it? I am still looking.
They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
I am not looking for respect, I seek evidence for the creator.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart,
I have, I have.
and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise.
also have tried this. But they do not provide any evidence.
My prayers are with you.
Prayers to whom? I am looking for evidence. Please help me.
Mike Syvanen
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 90,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free
indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 06:51:43 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
JERRY
What evidence is that, Jason? Do you understand what "Intelligent
Design" is and why it's not science? Do you understand that it's based
on the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance?
.
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| User: "Ian Braidwood" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 08:37:55 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
But our position isn't weak at all, but based upon evidence which is
all around us. Do you doubt that you inherited characteristics from
your parents? Do you doubt that if all young of plants and creatures
survived, the world would be impossibly overcrowded? Do you doubt that
a bird with a stronger beak will be more successful at cracking harder
seeds than one with a more modest beak?
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Intelligent design doesn't account for all the poor design in life,
like retinas in all vertibrates being the wrong way around. Like the
spine in humans going up the back of the torso instead of through the
centre for a better weight distribution.
Intelligent design can't account for why whales have the same
distribution of bones in their limbs as humans do, despite their having
flippers instead of hands. Why do whales have finger bones, my
Christian friends?
All these things make sense in the light of descent with modification,
because all vertibrates share a common ancestor, but are a paradox when
organisms are viewed as the independent creations of an intelligent
designer.
The intelligent design movement has been a public relations successs,
but hasn't addressed a single issue which caused honest people to
abandon the arguement from design in the last century.
The pattern of life and the relationships between organisms testify to
the actual interelatedness of living beings and what a richer, more
marvellous picture of life Darwinism gives!
Why don't you abandon this 'faith' which misleads you, Christians? If
it can't even show you the world as it is, how can it show you wisdom
in any other field of endeavour?
Atheism makes no promises; no Heaven, no Hell, except those you create
in the here and now through your own wisdom or folly. This freedom
makes demands upon you to learn and grow and think about right and
wrong for yourself; instead of failing to live up to a prescribed
morality backed up with a threat.
To be truely moral, you have to have free choice, because if an action
is coerced then the person performing the act isn't really responsible
for it. To act out of fear of retribution poisons any act of compassion
and destroys the true fellow feeling which guides the appropriateness
of any intended good act.
In short, people cannot be forced to act well by God or anyone else.
Only goodness can lead right action, so abandon this Christian doctrine
of coercion for the true path: goodness for goodness' sake.
(-: Ian :-)
.
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| User: "Auntie Lib" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
29 Mar 2005 01:40:38 PM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
So... this "message" isn't really for *any* of us, is it. And, by the
way, why do you bother posting messages to people you have killfiled
because you don't like what they have to say? Is it because you like
the "sound" of your own voice and aren't really interested in what
anyone else has to say?
Typical preacher. It's all one-sided with you people. No wonder we
think you're a waste of space human being.
Just walk away.
You first. Just do it, Jason. We don't need you. We don't want you.
We won't miss you. You have nothing to contribute to alt.atheism but
wasted bandwidth. You're not even amusing any more. You're a
post-and-run troll with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have
the chance to really consider what you believe.
alt.atheism will be a whole lot less "hostile" when *you* leave, Jason.
How does it feel to know that the world is better off *without* you
than it is *with* you in it? Damn, that's just a pathetic notion to
contemplate.
How very, very sad for you.
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 08:42:21 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
Oh, this message is not for me then.
Fatman
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| User: "Carson West" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 08:50:18 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:42:21 +0000, Fatman wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
Oh, this message is not for me then.
Good answer.
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:41:23 PM |
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"Carson West" <carson.west@coxspambox.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.26.14.50.18.944303@coxspambox.net...
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:42:21 +0000, Fatman wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak.
Oh, this message is not for me then.
Good answer.
Considering that most atheists (not the ones born and
raised as such) had a very difficult time coming to
understand and accept what their position is, there is
no weakness behind it at all. Even those of us raised
as atheists come to a time when they they realize and
understand why they stay that way. As usual, Jason is
speaking through his nether regions - no brain involved.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
.
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:55:39 PM |
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"Mickey" wrote
: Considering that most atheists (not the ones born and
: raised as such) had a very difficult time coming to
: understand and accept what their position is, there is
: no weakness behind it at all. Even those of us raised
: as atheists come to a time when they they realize and
: understand why they stay that way. As usual, Jason is
: speaking through his nether regions - no brain involved.
I agree. BTW, I scanned your website real quickly. I want to check it out
more after I finish my present project. Will probably join your list at that
time.
--
Bear
And I know it’s my own damn fault.
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| User: "Tim Jenson" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:08:28 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
Walk way from what? The Truth into your land of make believe. You can
take your Bible and SHOVE IT UP YOUR *****!
.
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:26:12 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:37:18 PM |
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Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted Gastranium
must be useful for SOMEthing.
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
Never use a weapon you don't like the taste of.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 02:09:48 PM |
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Doc Smartass wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted Gastranium
must be useful for SOMEthing.
Constipation ?
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 11:40:56 PM |
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Jez wrote:
Doc Smartass wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted
Gastranium must be useful for SOMEthing.
Constipation ?
Concrete for brain?
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
27 Mar 2005 12:19:08 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:56 -0500, Olrik <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com>
wrote:
Jez wrote:
Doc Smartass wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted
Gastranium must be useful for SOMEthing.
Constipation ?
Concrete for brain?
Is something impervious to reason really a good replacement for
Kevlar?
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
27 Mar 2005 01:03:49 AM |
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AngryJohn <AngryJohn@AngryJohnBelief.net> wrote in
news:q1kc41hlsbpq0sk2l6co3c9j0i2bibf81s@4ax.com:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:56 -0500, Olrik <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com>
wrote:
Jez wrote:
Doc Smartass wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted
Gastranium must be useful for SOMEthing.
Constipation ?
Concrete for brain?
Is something impervious to reason really a good replacement for
Kevlar?
Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment?
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
Never use a weapon you don't like the taste of.
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
27 Mar 2005 01:32:36 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 07:03:49 GMT, Doc Smartass
<gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
AngryJohn <AngryJohn@AngryJohnBelief.net> wrote in
news:q1kc41hlsbpq0sk2l6co3c9j0i2bibf81s@4ax.com:
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:40:56 -0500, Olrik <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com>
wrote:
Jez wrote:
Doc Smartass wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted
Gastranium must be useful for SOMEthing.
Constipation ?
Concrete for brain?
Is something impervious to reason really a good replacement for
Kevlar?
Wouldn't it be an interesting experiment?
Only if I could pull the trigger.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 01:58:14 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:37:18 GMT, Doc Smartass
<gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted Gastranium
must be useful for SOMEthing.
Fertilizer immediately comes to mind...
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
27 Mar 2005 12:58:00 AM |
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raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in
news:i5gb41511uiou270a1cdh4rvbd7mfflc44@4ax.com:
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:37:18 GMT, Doc Smartass
<gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
Richard Smol <jazzcat@_NOSPAM_dds.nl> wrote in
news:o881e.119339$o9.3829@amsnews03-serv.chello.com:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
Man, you're dense.
Hmmm. We could seel him to military weapons developers. Depleted
Gastranium must be useful for SOMEthing.
Fertilizer immediately comes to mind...
Too dense. Building material? Asphalt replacement?
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
Never use a weapon you don't like the taste of.
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| User: "Tink" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 04:40:05 PM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
WRONG! There is no evidence for you mythology based *****.
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?
Most of us who leave do so because we are tired of being harassed by
assholes like you, who come to a place where you are not wanted, stay
when told to leave and incessantly postwhore.
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
We HAVE considered what we believe. We have no reason to subscribe to
mythology.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.
No, we'd rather do real research in a real library or lab. That way we
get REAL results based on facts, not ***** mythology posted as fact.
***** you and everyone who looks like you.
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
--
Skydivers don't knock on death's door; they ring the bell and run
away... It really pisses him off.
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 07:17:37 PM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.
Well, it doesn't look al those big promises of great miracle by Jesus
himself are very good are they , Gassy?
And it looks like you KNOW it too. After all, I was willing
to put my Atheism on the line and give you a good long shot
at converting through the miracle working abilities promised
by Jesus in John 14, Mark 11, Matthew 18, Matthew 22 and so on.
What miracles? Ca nyou hear everybody laughing at you and Jesus
here in alt.atheism.
Weak?
Hey, I can prove your god doesn't exist.
Its almost trivial. No god, no ID, no Jesus, no creationism,
no miracles. Maybe that explains the failure of you, Jesus and
the bible in the matter of concerting me.
Here you go, you god disproven.
Lets just see how weak my position is.
******************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of God #1
William C. Barwell 3-8-05
******************************************************
1. Orthodox theology makes several very basic
dogmatic claims about god.
2. A. God is omnipotent
B. God is omniscient
C. God is omnibenevolent
D. God created the entire world
E. God is merciful
3. If god creates a world and everthing in it,
and he is omniscient, he knows everything that
is or will be in that Universe and any future
actions that will take place in that Universe.
4. He knows what a concious being will do in any possible
world he will create. If he creates a world that
at a future date has a man named John Smith, god
would know that there will indeed be a John Smith.
5. Being omniscient, he knows what Smith will do.
He will know in any possible world if Smith is good,
a believer and saved, or is evil and damned.
6. He would then have a choice. Create the contemplated
world with an evil Smith or not. He could easily
change his mind and create a world with a good Smith
instead. God may easily chose any world he wishes,
he has no constraints on his omnipotence.
7. Smith has no choice in the matter, he has no say in
being created, or being created as a good Smith or
an evil Smith. All choice is god's choice alone.
8. Thus Smith has no free will. If he is evil it is
solely because god made the concious and purposeful
decision to create an evil Smith who does moral evil.
Smith's actions, and all his intentions and mental states
are predetermined and created in actuality by god.
He can have no free will even in principle. God does
not create a Smith with free will and turn his loose
in an undetermined Universe. All real acts and all real
mental states of Smith have been considered by god, and
chosen from among many possiblibilities and purposefully
created by god to the smallest detail by god alone,
involving all time within Smith's life, second by second.
9. Nobody has free will. All decisions to create any
man or woman or other sentient beings, angels or devils,
that are good or evil are made by knowingly by god.
If any man or woman or being does moral evil it is
solely and only because god decided to create a world
where they exist and do evil and are damned.
All actions of these beings are specifically chosen
and created by god in the most finegrained manner
physically possible in any Universe God actually
creates, down to the smallest possible actually
existant quantum time and space scales in this world.
10 But god is alledegly omnibenevolent. That is all
good. If he creates men and women or beings who do
moral evil, moral evil exists solely and only because
god knowingly creates morally evil, sentient beings.
11. Since it is god who allows morally evil sentient beings
to exist, he is the creator and sustaining cause of
all moral evil in the Universe, and he could just as
easily created all men to do only moral good, but
specifically and purposefully chose not to do so.
12. Since free will is not possible for man, not even
in principle, there is no way to blame evil on man.
Smith if he is evil is evil because god created him
knowingly as a morally evil man. If he is good, he is
good only because god chose to create him good.
And thus no way to claim evil is necessary to allow for
free will which is a common theological claim.
Free will thus cannot be used to get god out of any
blame for existance of moral evil in the world.
13. An omnibenevolent god cannot, because he is indeed
omnibenevolent, create moral evil by definition.
14. Morally evil men and women exist.
15. Thus a god who is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent
4. Creator of the entire world
5. Merciful
Cannot exist in a world where moral evil exists.
16. If such a god existed, free will cannot exist.
17. A god that creates a man as evil, then tortures him
for all eternity for evil acts god created him doing,
who could have made him good, made all his acts good,
created him good a believer and saved, is the one who
is evil, not the man so created evil who had no choice
in this at all. Such a god cannot be said to be
omnibenevolent nor merciful, probably cannot even
be claimed to be sane.
(End)
****************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of God #2
William C. Barwell 3-14-05
****************************************************
1. God is said to be omnibenevolent, all good.
2. God is also said to have free will.
3. God is also said to be omnipotent.
4. By omnibenevolent, it is meant that god is said
to be incapable of doing evil.
5. But does not this mean god is not omnipotent?
Doesn't god's omnibenevolence limit his omnipotence?
6. No. God has a good nature. He does not do evil.
But he has the very real power to do evil if
he was not restrained by his good nature.
Thus his good nature does not affect his omnipotence.
7. Nor does this then affect his free will. Merely
having a good nature in no way can effect his
having free will. Men may be goodly or evil,
such qualities do not mean they lack free will.
Likewise god's good nature similarly does not
mean god has no free will.
6. So god has free will and a good nature incapable
of doing evil and retains his omnipotence also.
7. Why is there evil in this world? Alledgedly so
man can be said to have free will. Given free
will some men do evil by their own free will.
8. But if god can have free will, and a good nature
incapable of doing moral evil, why then cannot
god likewise give man free will and a good nature
incapable of evil such as god has, thus eliminating
moral evil from this world?
9. If god is as claimed, omnibenevolent and omnipotent
then he is obligated by his omnibenevolence to give
all men free will and a good nature so they will
not sin and be saved. And thus that no moral
evil is allowed to exist in the Universe.
10. Logically then, a god that is simultaneously
omnibenevolent, omnipotent and has free will
cannot exist. Man's free will is not an adequate
excuse to explain the existance of moral evil
and to save a god that is omnipotent, omnibenevolent
and allows moral evil to exist.
(End)
**************************************************
God disproven - Free will disproof of god #3
William C. Barwell 3-9-05
**************************************************
God is defined as being:
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnibenevolent.
4. The most powerful thing that can be imagined.
5. The creator of all.
6. Intelligent and concious, having will.
7. What do we mean by omnipotent?
Can god do the impossible, create a square circle or
a 4 sided triangle?
8. That really asks the question, does god create the
rules, the laws, the logic of the Universe at large?
And thus can change them at a whim, or for a reason?
9. Since god is supposedly omnipotent, let us try
answering yes.
10. If yes, god could easily create a world where man has
free will yet freely chooses only to do moral good.
11. But in this world we see that man often does moral
evil.
12. If god could create such a word since he creates the
Universe's rules, and does not do so, god is effectively
the creator of all evil, past, present and future.
Evil exists only because god allows it to when he could
easily end all evil by creating a Universe where indeed
man has free will and yet freely chooses only to do
moral good.
13. Thus god is the author and sustaining cause of all
evil and is himself evil, that is omni-malevolent,
rather than as claimed, omni-benevolent.
14. Since dogmatically, god is supposedly omni-benevolent
rather than omni-malevolent, this is obviously not
acceptable. Allowing god to make the rules makes
him overtly evil.
15. Free will is said to be why evil exists, man is given
free will and sometimes abuses it. But as we can see,
free will cannot save god from blame if he can make the
rules and laws and laws and logic of the Universe.
16. God therefore does not make the rules, the laws or
the logic of the Universe.
17. God is said to be the most powerful thing that can
be imagined, the greatest thing that can exist.
But if god does not make the laws and rules and logic
of the Universe, and cannot change them at whim,
then the Universe with its rules and laws and logic
are more powerful than god, and this dogmatic claim
is obviously not true.
18. This claim is used as a basis of ontological claims
such as Anselm's ontological proof and these type of
ontological proofs are all thus falsified.
19. God is supposedly omnipotent. But if he is limited
by the Universe with its rules and laws and logic,
obviously he is not omnipotent at all. This dogmatic
claim cannot be saved unless you accept a god that
is omni-malevolent as a basic dogma.
20. God is dogmatically claimed to have been the creator
of the Universe, of all that is. But if god does not
make the laws and rules and logic of the Universe,
they must be beyond him, outside him, and must either
preceed him or parallel god's existance, he cannot
have created it thusly, so the dogma that god created
all is falsified also.
21. One dodge here might be to claim god created the
Universe in the manner that limits him, but god,
being omniscient, superintelligent and omnibenevolent
would have known that by creating such a Universe, he
was creating a Universe that contained evil only because
he chose to create a limited Universe, so we are back
to claiming god is omni-malevolent. Thus such a dodge
fails.
22. The idea of a perfect omni-everything god preceeds
Christianity, Epicurus noted the pronblem of evil
in 300 BCE. The gods are omnibenevolent and omnipotent,
yet evil exists. The gods either cannot or will not end
evil thus must be either not omnibenevolent or
omnipotent or possible neither.
23. Yet over 2,500 years, the theological methodolgy
used to erect the hypothetical Grand God of Grand
Theology which is now dogmatic in all major religous
traditions has failed to see this god as shown above,
cannot exist as claimed.
24. Thus not only is god as so defined an impossible
and failed hypothesis, the theology methodology
used to create such a hypothetical god is a failed
methodology and its basic method, making overarching
assertions without evidence is a failed methodology.
25. What are the laws and the rules and the logic of
the Universe? And what can we say about them?
26. As far as can be noted, we do have good, basic
understandings of the laws of the Universe. Things
are made up of matter and energy, operating in a
framework of time, and dimensions, with rules known
by science, phsycs, chemistry, astronomy and other
sciences.
27. There is no room in these laws and rules of
the Universe for disembodied gods or entities
that have will and who act. Thinking beings
are made of matter and energy and subject to rules
of chemistry and physics.
28. If theology wishes to claim otherwise, theology
bears the burden of demonstrating with hard evidence
that a god or other supernatural entity can exist.
And very much has a burden to prove that the Grand
God of theological tradition has actual and real
existance.
29. The failed theological methodology of making
unsupported assertions and deriving subclaims
is not an acceptable method for doing theology,
since as demonstrated above, that has proven to
be a total failure as a methodology.
(END)
Just walk away.
/mocking voice on/
Don't just walk away, Gassy.
/mocking voice off/
Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this
group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?
Do what millions in America have done in the last ten years.
Convert to Atheism.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a
major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has
suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9
percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in
Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the
year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S.
Get on the bandwagon today! Religous superstition is
a sinking ship!
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
Go back to my three proofs your god cannot exist.
Why would anybody want to git ignert and become a
Christian. We can see no 'creator' is possible.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.
Your prayers don't do dirt.
John 14:12-4 is a fraud.
********************************************
Mark 11:23-4
For verily I say this unto you, That
whosoever shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed, and be thou cast
into the sea; and shall not doubt
in his heart, but shall believe that
those things which he saith shall
come to pass; he shall have whatsoever
he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things
soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe
ye recieve them and ye shall have them.
Matthew 18:19-20
Again I say unto you, that if two
of you shall agree on earth as
touching anything that they shall
ask, it shall be done for them of
my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there I am in the midst
of them.
Matthew 21:22
And all things,whatsoever ye shall ask
in prayer, believeing, ye shall recieve.
John 14:12-14
12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
believeth on me, the works that I do shall he
do also; and greater works than these shall
he do;because I go unto my Father.
13: And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,
that will I do, that the Father may be
glorified in the Son.
14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name,
I will do it.
***********************************************
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 11:40:10 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
[ rubbish snipped ]
Dear Christians and Creationists,
This message is for all of you whose foundations are built on sand. All
of you know deep down inside that there is no good evidence for
supernatural events, now or in the past. There simply isn't any reason
to believe in it.
Superstitious fears are everywhere -- your favorite sports hero
probably wears the same socks to every important game because he
suffers from paranoid superstitions. Without his 'lucky socks' he is
terrified. Fears are natural, but they can and do become irrational,
and you can't allow them to lock you into a lifetime of irrational
thinking.
Just walk away. Do what thousands have done before you and force
yourself to put the irrational aside. Do you ever wonder why some
people you used to know have left the fold? Are you tired of being
associated with those who always have to reinterpret everything?
Leaving the imaginary environment of delusion and fabrication, you can
have the chance to face the realities of the world as we actually find
it. You deserve the chance to put innate childishness aside and become
a real adult who can accept things as they are, not softened by some
quaint belief.
Superstitions and religions are supported by unconscious selective
interpretations of the random events of life. Force yourself to be
scientific in your thinking. The doubts you've been having about your
faith won't be respected by the deeply indoctrinated. They will bend
over backwards to keep you ensnared.
Leave the congregation of the manipulated and research your own
beliefs, read good books, and consider your existance on this planet.
You only get one life. Don't be a lifelong pawn of the long entrenched
liars who have been perfecting their craft since mankind discovered
fire and stone tools.
Dave
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| User: "Carson West" |
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| Title: Re: Just Walk Away |
26 Mar 2005 05:06:53 AM |
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Jason, I have to admit that this is one of the most arrogant posts I've
seen a Christian put up in quite a while; but then, I haven't been posting
in quite a while, either. However, as you suggested, I researched Google
about some of the claims regarding you (remember, you told me that "Google
doesn't lie.") and the fact is that this kind of arrogance is
characteristic of you.
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:51:30 +0000, Jason Gastrich wrote:
Dear agnostics and atheists,
This message is for all of you that know that your position
is very weak.
What position is very weak--agnosticism or atheism? At what levels is it
weak, or are both concepts "weak" at their base?
I understand that the basis of fundamentalism is to effectively label all
those who tend to lean toward agnosticism as "atheists," which is
characteristically simplistic thinking. In fact, there are some
fundamentalists whom would claim that any belief other than their own is
effectively atheism, since it's worship of a false god and denies the
"real" God. I'm curious if you've conflated it all and if this what you
mean.
I know you're at least presumably getting ready to post an opening
statement in your debate with Doug Krueger over at the Internet Infidels
discussion boards. Since the subject of that debate is the reasonableness
of a belief in God, perhaps you have finally figured out that you should
do research before such a debate. Perhaps you are doing that research and
you have found a point or two you wish to share here. If that's the
case, congratulations. That's how intelligent discussion takes place. But
frankly, if your past performances are any indication, I don't think
that's what's happening at all. What I think is happening is that you are
monumentally arrogant, but also quite ignorant, and you are also very
immature and small-minded. I think you also know, deep down, that
you're not an intellectual match for at least several of the
participants in these newsgroups, so you post these useless posts and
then run. You are actually content with poking at people and running
away. You're the kind of person who would ring a doorbell and then run
behind the bushes several times, so that you could anger that neighbor you
didn't like, maybe because he caught you stealing his oranges one too many
times and told your parents. You get angry because of the responses you
get in these groups, but the only weapon you have in your rather puny
arsenal is a tendency to get under the skin of some others. Since that
is all that you have, that is all we can ever see from you.
What follows is a bunch of useless posturing from you, but since you seem
to have problems with point-by-point rebuttals, I can only apologize ahead
of time if you choose to be offended by what's going to happen next, but I
think point-by-point rebuttals are very useful in exposing people like you:
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.
About those that "know," I would wonder how it is that *you* would presume
to know what they think. Apparently, if there's anything to your
posturing article, you have some people in mind. Care to name them and
then tell us why you think they "know" what you claim? What is this
"evidence" to which you refer? Don't bother referring me to a web page
and presume that that should do it. Anyone can cite a web page. In fact,
anyone can put up a web page, as anyone who visits your own can see. What
I want to see is if you can actually post examples of this "evidence" for
all to see and discuss it intelligently. I don't think that you can.
For the record, I did see your "evidence of God" article that you posted
some time ago. I'm not an atheist, but even *I* could take it apart and
leave you sputtering and mumbling; and that's if we pretend that the post
wasn't a sputtering and mumbling in the first place. Is that the
"evidence" to which you refer? Shall we go back to that? The reason I'm
asking is because you make a specific reference to "intelligent design,"
and if we limit ourselves to that subject, even there, I find you
woefully ignorant.
Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and
leave this group of scoffers.
Now why would anyone want to do that, Jason? Scoffing may not be very
attractive at times; but even *you* must admit that your own post to which
I am now responding is nothing more than scoffing. Part of this
"scoffing" that you resent so much is a part of natural skepticism for
extraordinary claims which, you may recall, require extraordinary
evidence, and this is evidence you seem incapable of providing.
Hundreds have come and gone, Jason--from most busy newsgroups or any group
that has been around for very long. I suspect that this will happen
regardless of your urgings; but watching you pretend to give this kind of
advice makes me wonder something. Considering the "goodwill" that you
have generated between yourself and the Usenet atheist community--which
isn't truly good, at all--and the lack of credibility that you have in
these groups, I guess I'm wondering whom you think will take your "advice."
Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know
have suddenly disappeared?
Are you presuming to tell us that these "disappearances" are due to
salvation events, or is it, perhaps, that part of the nature of newsgroups
is that people come and go for a variety of reasons? Speaking for
myself, I've dropped out of Usenet a few times, and then returned,
mostly because I get bored or real life intrudes.
I suppose that part of your statement is to attempt to imply that there
are those who have left alt.atheism or the newsgroups because they have
become "saved." If that is so, just come out and say it. I think we
all know why you won't do that. You won't do that because you know that
you will be challenged to produce the names of people whom you claim to
have had these salvation experiences. You will reply that you won't
provide their names because you want to protect them from harassment or
some other such nonsense, but we all know that, beyond the Usenet names,
quite a few of these people have relationships outside of Usenet. I have
a few, myself, and so it's likely that if you claim that UserName is no
longer around because he or she became a Christian, the claim will be
checked. It might be that one of us knows UserName personally and will
ask. It might be that UserName tells one of us that he or she isn't
participating because of something going on somewhere else in life, and it
might be that one of us reports that to the group, within the confines of
confidentiality, of course. You are then exposed as a liar.
But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Tell us, Jason, who you
have in mind as any of those "some people."
Are you tired of being associated with fools?
Now this is a different question, Jason, unless it really is a follow-up
and the unknown disappearances are simply by those who no longer want to
be associated with "fools." Let's explore that.
Who are the "fools," Jason? Are they those that post point-by-point
responses to you? Are they those that expose your, shall we say, little
bendings of the truth, as well as your peculiar standards of Christian
behavior, personal behavior, and ethics?
When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you
can have the chance to really consider what you believe.
Usenet is a strange place, Jason, but alt.atheism isn't much more hostile
than any other group outside of those specifically created for flaming.
It is, in fact, usually *less* hostile, in my experience, than the
Christian groups, at least as long as some arrogant Christian doesn't show
up and call everyone who disagrees with him a "fool."
You need to learn to understand that the hostility generated toward *you*,
which is really what you're complaining about, occurs because of you and
not because alt.atheism is necessarily inherently hostile to those who
wish to explore their beliefs. I strongly suspect that if I wanted to
discuss my own beliefs in a mature manner with any number of atheists in
alt.atheism, I'd get intelligent and reasoned responses. Sure, there are
a few react in a mean-spirited manner, but one can be radically atheist
and behave badly, just as Christians often do. Atheists are human beings,
Jason, and their personalities are as varied as those of any other group.
In fact, since it's harder to "program" them--they tend to think
criticially and skeptically a bit beyond Christians--there's no reason not
to expect that. Of all of the atheists that I've seen in alt.atheism over
the years, I can count on one hand the number with whom I would not prefer
to interact. But if I had to do the same with Christians, I could build
quite a list. The fact is that I was a Christian for a number of yours;
and in your neck of the woods, too. I went to Mapleview Baptist Church
for a while before settling on Scott Memorial Baptist Church (now Shadow
Mountain Community Church) as a "home church." I sat in the pews with
several of your creationist heroes--most of whom I later discovered,
through my own researches, to be liars. (By the way, Jason, I did all of
that long before anyone had ever heard of the Internet or Usenet.) I give
you all of that to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about, and I
can tell you, as you so often demonstrate, that Christians can be and are
some of the most arrogant, ignorant, mean-spirited, and cruel people you'd
ever want to meet; and I was discovering that even as I was attending
church.
Face it. The feelings you've been having about a Creator won't be
confirmed here.
This is actually very strange. Why would anyone *expect* those "feelings"
to be "confirmed here?"
They won't be respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.
Neither of those things is true, Jason--at least not automatically.
Respect is *earned*. It's not something to which you are
immediately entitled. We all know that you have gone out of your way to
create artificial mechanisms by which you can be "respected," through the
manipulation of Shepherd Bible College (a diploma mill in the first
place) and the granting of a "doctorate", and the self-bestowal of titles
such as "minister," "counselor," and even "CEO," and that you seem to
think that these things should result in an automatic respect that your
personality and intellect have never been able to grant you. You resent
it that it hasn't worked out, as your frequent whinings about "respect"
have shown. People get respect for who they are and how they act,
especially in places such as Usenet, and not by artificial titles. The
almost anonymous nature of Usenet almost *requires* that very little be
taken as claimed or at face value. If your problem is that you don't get
any respect, Jason--and we all know that that's what this is all
about--it's because you haven't *earned* it.
Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your
heart, and even consult some real and honest friends is wise.
So there are *no* "real or honest friends" in Usenet or in alt.atheism,
Jason? Is *that* your claim? Is it not possible to build real, human
relationships in Usenet? It's just another human invention, after all.
And if one of my "friends" in alt.atheism discusses my beliefs with me and
causes me to examine them more critically and honestly within myself, is
he or she not being honest with me, and being a *real* friend to me?
I find this thing about "real and honest" friends interesting, in a way,
because when Christians behave badly, as you have done, in discussion
groups, they are often confronted about their behavior while making
claims about "love." (You have made claims about "love," as well.) When
challenged about it, the Christian often responds that they are showing
"real" love and being a true "friend" by challenging the person to rethink
what they believe and consider the Gospel. You tell us that atheists are
"fools," and you might claim to be "real and honest" but that's only what
you believe. If an atheist who is every bit as sincere as you want us to
believe you to be tells us that the Christian "God" doesn't exist, you
want to represent that person as not being "real and honest" or a true
"friend." Isn't that so?
My prayers are with you.
Your prayers have proven to be meaningless and even bot-like. In fact, I
wouldn't be at all surprised if the post to which I am responding isn't a
reaction to the fact that your prayers don't seem to have any effect. I
am not aware of one "atheist" in this newsgroup whom has been moved to
even consider Christianity more favorably, let alone actually convert.
Are you aware of such a person?
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