Jason, I have to admit that this is one of the most arrogant posts I've
seen a Christian put up in quite a while; but then, I haven't been posting
in quite a while, either. However, as you suggested, I researched Google
about some of the claims regarding you (remember, you told me that "Google
doesn't lie.") and the fact is that this kind of arrogance is
characteristic of you.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 06:51:30 +0000, Jason Gastrich wrote:

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position
is very weak.

What position is very weak--agnosticism or atheism? At what levels is it
weak, or are both concepts "weak" at their base?

I understand that the basis of fundamentalism is to effectively label all
those who tend to lean toward agnosticism as "atheists," which is
characteristically simplistic thinking. In fact, there are some
fundamentalists whom would claim that any belief other than their own is
effectively atheism, since it's worship of a false god and denies the
"real" God. I'm curious if you've conflated it all and if this what you
mean.

I know you're at least presumably getting ready to post an opening
statement in your debate with Doug Krueger over at the Internet Infidels
discussion boards. Since the subject of that debate is the reasonableness
of a belief in God, perhaps you have finally figured out that you should
do research before such a debate. Perhaps you are doing that research and
you have found a point or two you wish to share here. If that's the
case, congratulations. That's how intelligent discussion takes place. But
frankly, if your past performances are any indication, I don't think
that's what's happening at all. What I think is happening is that you are
monumentally arrogant, but also quite ignorant, and you are also very
immature and small-minded. I think you also know, deep down, that
you're not an intellectual match for at least several of the
participants in these newsgroups, so you post these useless posts and
then run. You are actually content with poking at people and running
away. You're the kind of person who would ring a doorbell and then run
behind the bushes several times, so that you could anger that neighbor you
didn't like, maybe because he caught you stealing his oranges one too many
times and told your parents. You get angry because of the responses you
get in these groups, but the only weapon you have in your rather puny
arsenal is a tendency to get under the skin of some others. Since that
is all that you have, that is all we can ever see from you.

What follows is a bunch of useless posturing from you, but since you seem
to have problems with point-by-point rebuttals, I can only apologize ahead
of time if you choose to be offended by what's going to happen next, but I
think point-by-point rebuttals are very useful in exposing people like

All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.

About those that "know," I would wonder how it is that *you* would presume
to know what they think. Apparently, if there's anything to your
posturing article, you have some people in mind. Care to name them and
then tell us why you think they "know" what you claim? What is this
"evidence" to which you refer? Don't bother referring me to a web page
and presume that that should do it. Anyone can cite a web page. In fact,
anyone can put up a web page, as anyone who visits your own can see. What
I want to see is if you can actually post examples of this "evidence" for
all to see and discuss it intelligently. I don't think that you can.

For the record, I did see your "evidence of God" article that you posted
some time ago. I'm not an atheist, but even *I* could take it apart and
leave you sputtering and mumbling; and that's if we pretend that the post
wasn't a sputtering and mumbling in the first place. Is that the
"evidence" to which you refer? Shall we go back to that? The reason I'm
asking is because you make a specific reference to "intelligent design,"
and if we limit ourselves to that subject, even there, I find you
woefully ignorant.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and
leave this group of scoffers.

Now why would anyone want to do that, Jason? Scoffing may not be very
attractive at times; but even *you* must admit that your own post to which
I am now responding is nothing more than scoffing. Part of this
"scoffing" that you resent so much is a part of natural skepticism for
extraordinary claims which, you may recall, require extraordinary
evidence, and this is evidence you seem incapable of providing.

Hundreds have come and gone, Jason--from most busy newsgroups or any group
that has been around for very long. I suspect that this will happen
regardless of your urgings; but watching you pretend to give this kind of
advice makes me wonder something. Considering the "goodwill" that you
have generated between yourself and the Usenet atheist community--which
isn't truly good, at all--and the lack of credibility that you have in
these groups, I guess I'm wondering whom you think will take your

Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know
have suddenly disappeared?

Are you presuming to tell us that these "disappearances" are due to
salvation events, or is it, perhaps, that part of the nature of newsgroups
is that people come and go for a variety of reasons? Speaking for
myself, I've dropped out of Usenet a few times, and then returned,
mostly because I get bored or real life intrudes.

I suppose that part of your statement is to attempt to imply that there
are those who have left alt.atheism or the newsgroups because they have
become "saved." If that is so, just come out and say it. I think we
all know why you won't do that. You won't do that because you know that
you will be challenged to produce the names of people whom you claim to
have had these salvation experiences. You will reply that you won't
provide their names because you want to protect them from harassment or
some other such nonsense, but we all know that, beyond the Usenet names,
quite a few of these people have relationships outside of Usenet. I have
a few, myself, and so it's likely that if you claim that UserName is no
longer around because he or she became a Christian, the claim will be
checked. It might be that one of us knows UserName personally and will
ask. It might be that UserName tells one of us that he or she isn't
participating because of something going on somewhere else in life, and it
might be that one of us reports that to the group, within the confines of
confidentiality, of course. You are then exposed as a liar.

But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Tell us, Jason, who you
have in mind as any of those "some people."

Are you tired of being associated with fools?

Now this is a different question, Jason, unless it really is a follow-up
and the unknown disappearances are simply by those who no longer want to
be associated with "fools." Let's explore that.

Who are the "fools," Jason? Are they those that post point-by-point
responses to you? Are they those that expose your, shall we say, little
bendings of the truth, as well as your peculiar standards of Christian
behavior, personal behavior, and ethics?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you
can have the chance to really consider what you believe.

Usenet is a strange place, Jason, but alt.atheism isn't much more hostile
than any other group outside of those specifically created for flaming.
It is, in fact, usually *less* hostile, in my experience, than the
Christian groups, at least as long as some arrogant Christian doesn't show
up and call everyone who disagrees with him a "fool."

You need to learn to understand that the hostility generated toward *you*,
which is really what you're complaining about, occurs because of you and
not because alt.atheism is necessarily inherently hostile to those who
wish to explore their beliefs. I strongly suspect that if I wanted to
discuss my own beliefs in a mature manner with any number of atheists in
alt.atheism, I'd get intelligent and reasoned responses. Sure, there are
a few react in a mean-spirited manner, but one can be radically atheist
and behave badly, just as Christians often do. Atheists are human beings,
Jason, and their personalities are as varied as those of any other group.
In fact, since it's harder to "program" them--they tend to think
criticially and skeptically a bit beyond Christians--there's no reason not
to expect that. Of all of the atheists that I've seen in alt.atheism over
the years, I can count on one hand the number with whom I would not prefer
to interact. But if I had to do the same with Christians, I could build
quite a list. The fact is that I was a Christian for a number of yours;
and in your neck of the woods, too. I went to Mapleview Baptist Church
for a while before settling on Scott Memorial Baptist Church (now Shadow
Mountain Community Church) as a "home church." I sat in the pews with
several of your creationist heroes--most of whom I later discovered,
through my own researches, to be liars. (By the way, Jason, I did all of
that long before anyone had ever heard of the Internet or Usenet.) I give
you all of that to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about, and I
can tell you, as you so often demonstrate, that Christians can be and are
some of the most arrogant, ignorant, mean-spirited, and cruel people you'd
ever want to meet; and I was discovering that even as I was attending
church.

Face it. The feelings you've been having about a Creator won't be
confirmed here.

This is actually very strange. Why would anyone *expect* those "feelings"
to be "confirmed here?"

They won't be respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Neither of those things is true, Jason--at least not automatically.
Respect is *earned*. It's not something to which you are
immediately entitled. We all know that you have gone out of your way to
create artificial mechanisms by which you can be "respected," through the
manipulation of Shepherd Bible College (a diploma mill in the first
place) and the granting of a "doctorate", and the self-bestowal of titles
such as "minister," "counselor," and even "CEO," and that you seem to
think that these things should result in an automatic respect that your
personality and intellect have never been able to grant you. You resent
it that it hasn't worked out, as your frequent whinings about "respect"
have shown. People get respect for who they are and how they act,
especially in places such as Usenet, and not by artificial titles. The
almost anonymous nature of Usenet almost *requires* that very little be
taken as claimed or at face value. If your problem is that you don't get
any respect, Jason--and we all know that that's what this is all
about--it's because you haven't *earned* it.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your
heart, and even consult some real and honest friends is wise.

So there are *no* "real or honest friends" in Usenet or in alt.atheism,
Jason? Is *that* your claim? Is it not possible to build real, human
relationships in Usenet? It's just another human invention, after all.
And if one of my "friends" in alt.atheism discusses my beliefs with me and
causes me to examine them more critically and honestly within myself, is
he or she not being honest with me, and being a *real* friend to me?

I find this thing about "real and honest" friends interesting, in a way,
because when Christians behave badly, as you have done, in discussion
groups, they are often confronted about their behavior while making
claims about "love." (You have made claims about "love," as well.) When
challenged about it, the Christian often responds that they are showing
"real" love and being a true "friend" by challenging the person to rethink
what they believe and consider the Gospel. You tell us that atheists are
"fools," and you might claim to be "real and honest" but that's only what
you believe. If an atheist who is every bit as sincere as you want us to
believe you to be tells us that the Christian "God" doesn't exist, you
want to represent that person as not being "real and honest" or a true
"friend." Isn't that so?

My prayers are with you.

Your prayers have proven to be meaningless and even bot-like. In fact, I
wouldn't be at all surprised if the post to which I am responding isn't a
reaction to the fact that your prayers don't seem to have any effect. I
am not aware of one "atheist" in this newsgroup whom has been moved to
even consider Christianity more favorably, let alone actually convert.
Are you aware of such a person?

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very
weak. All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the
evidence is just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this
group of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to
know have suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated
with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have
the chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The
feelings you've been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here.
They won't be respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and
even consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are
with you.

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.

All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.

Sincerely,

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared?

Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism,

you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here.

They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared?

Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism,

you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here.

They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.

All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away.

Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared?

Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism,

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe.

Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here.

They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

Dear agnostics and atheists,

This message is for all of you that know that your position is very weak.
All of you that know deep down there is a Creator

because the evidence is
just too compelling for intelligent design.

Just walk away. Do what hundreds have done before you and leave this
group
of scoffers. Do you ever wonder why some people you used to know have
suddenly disappeared? Are you tired of being associated with fools?

When you leave the hostile environment of alt.atheism, you can have the
chance to really consider what you believe. Face it. The feelings you've
been having about a Creator won't be confirmed here. They won't be
respected here. Heck, you won't be respected here.

Leaving alt.atheism to research your beliefs, search your heart, and even
consult some real and honest friends is wise. My prayers are with you.

Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich

--

--------

Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
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John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
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