JWs USE FEAR

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	""
Date:	05 Sep 2007 04:56:48 PM
Object:	JWs USE FEAR

Fear of "Worldly People"
The fear of the world, and those in it, is a prime concern of the Witness.
Those who have relationships with non-Witness friends outside the
congregation are frowned upon by the Society as being involved in "bad
association." The Watchtower reasons that because everything in the world
that is outside the Organization is viewed as "evil", non-Witness people
are a potential spiritual threat and therefore must be avoided except as
targets for conversion. This creates an "us and them" mentality, as
intended, and helps isolate the Witness from influences that might bring
him or her out of this cult.
Fear of Close Relationships
Even in the Organization, close relationships are secretly feared. People
get so close to one another, but no further. This is because of fear that
if one confides in one's close friend too much, then that "friend" may go
to the elders and disclose something that was disclosed in confidence.
This fear also covers the fear of someone (say, the Witness receptionist
atyour
doctor's, an assistant at a pharmacy) whistle-blowing when they spot you
doing something they think is wrong - however much a breach of confidence
this is.
Fear of Satan and Demons
In the mind of the Witness, everything that is outside the Organization
is demonized. Many Jehovah's Witnesses are gripped by a kind of fanatical
superstition seeing demons in things where they are just simply not
present. For example, such things as inanimate objects, like a "smurf
doll"
or a microwave oven or an aluminum pan will be viewed by some Witnesses as
demonic. Other areas of demon activity, in the mind of the average
Witness,
includes such things as television programs and even the religious
enthusiasm of Christians! For example, a Christian who makes a habit of
spending long hours in prayer will be rejected by some Witnesses as
someone
who is under the control of demons (many were shunned for life in the
"cleanup" at Brooklyn headquarters in the early 1980s simply for reading
the Bible alone.
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	05 Sep 2007 09:29:38 PM

<spokperson@watchtower.org> wrote in message
news:5c78eb562ed4ed55530573ee62cd1be4@pseudo.borked.net...

Fear of "Worldly People"

The fear of the world, and those in it, is a prime concern of the Witness.
Those who have relationships with non-Witness friends outside the
congregation are frowned upon by the Society as being involved in "bad
association." The Watchtower reasons that because everything in the world
that is outside the Organization is viewed as "evil", non-Witness people
are a potential spiritual threat and therefore must be avoided except as
targets for conversion. This creates an "us and them" mentality, as
intended, and helps isolate the Witness from influences that might bring
him or her out of this cult.

Fear of Close Relationships

Even in the Organization, close relationships are secretly feared. People
get so close to one another, but no further. This is because of fear that
if one confides in one's close friend too much, then that "friend" may go
to the elders and disclose something that was disclosed in confidence.
This fear also covers the fear of someone (say, the Witness receptionist
atyour
doctor's, an assistant at a pharmacy) whistle-blowing when they spot you
doing something they think is wrong - however much a breach of confidence
this is.

Fear of Satan and Demons

In the mind of the Witness, everything that is outside the Organization
is demonized. Many Jehovah's Witnesses are gripped by a kind of fanatical
superstition seeing demons in things where they are just simply not
present. For example, such things as inanimate objects, like a "smurf
doll"
or a microwave oven or an aluminum pan will be viewed by some Witnesses as
demonic. Other areas of demon activity, in the mind of the average
Witness,
includes such things as television programs and even the religious
enthusiasm of Christians! For example, a Christian who makes a habit of
spending long hours in prayer will be rejected by some Witnesses as
someone
who is under the control of demons (many were shunned for life in the
"cleanup" at Brooklyn headquarters in the early 1980s simply for reading
the Bible alone.

Times they are a changing...
JWs more than in past times are taking to heart these scriptures:
". . .God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and
God remains in union with him. 17 This is how love has been made perfect
with us, that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment,
because, just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world. 18 There is
no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear
exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made
perfect in love." (1Jo 4:16-18)
No, I'm not an 'apologist' just an optimist who has waited a long time to
see the organization make the next leap in its spiritual growth.
________________________________________
'' A bending staff I would not break,
A feeble faith I would not shake,
Nor even rudely pluck away
The error which some truth may stay,
Whose sudden loss might leave without
A shield against the shafts of doubt.''
-- an early Christian, 1890 C.E.
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User: "I.M. deLaw"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	06 Sep 2007 06:26:38 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189045598_14617@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

<spokperson@watchtower.org> wrote in message <SNIP>

Times they are a changing...

JWs more than in past times are taking to heart these scriptures:

". . .God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God
and God remains in union with him.

That's why he slaughtered so many people in the OT, including wiping out
whole towns and cities, except for the young virgins = who were given, like
animals, to the men of God's people? He showed his love by watching all
those innocent people die? Watching those young virgins being sexually
assaulted by *HIS* chosen people?
Snip bible babble........

No, I'm not an 'apologist' just an optimist who has waited a long time to
see the organization make the next leap in its spiritual growth.

So then they did away with DFing and shunning..........
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 12:21:59 AM

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbq2be$ojn$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189045598_14617@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

That's why he slaughtered so many people in the OT, including wiping out
whole towns and cities, except for the young virgins = who were given,
like animals, to the men of God's people?

Certainly you don't ascribe these atrocities to Jehovah God? If so then you
haven't read the Bible carefully enough to discern between the actions of
primitive men who were given God's patience for the sake of future humanity,
and the actions of God himself. That is part of the problem in this forum,
people either deliberately or ignorantly MISreading the holy scriptures.
"14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR utmost
to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15
Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our
beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, 16
speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them,
however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady
are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own
destruction." (2Pe 3:14-16)
Indeed, some things are "hard to understand" and those like yourself who are
"untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the
Scriptures, to their own destruction."

He showed his love by watching all those innocent people die? Watching
those young virgins being sexually assaulted by *HIS* chosen people?

Snip bible babble........

No, I'm not an 'apologist' just an optimist who has waited a long time to
see the organization make the next leap in its spiritual growth.

So then they did away with DFing and shunning..........

User: "I.M. deLaw"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 12:58:00 AM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189142330_451@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbq2be$ojn$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189045598_14617@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

That's why he slaughtered so many people in the OT, including wiping out
whole towns and cities, except for the young virgins = who were given,
like animals, to the men of God's people?

Certainly you don't ascribe these atrocities to Jehovah God?

You obviously never read the OT page by page. They were directed to those
towns and cities and told to do what they did... and they did what they were
told to do. The young girls were given to the men of the tribe as one gives
a man a cat or a goat.
If so then you

haven't read the Bible carefully enough to discern between the actions of
primitive men who were given God's patience for the sake of future
humanity,

What future of humanity? There were humans all over by then. Don't you
know anything about the history of mankind? There was no need for this
Hebrew god to have them wipe out entire cities including infants, old people
and the livestock.

and the actions of God himself. That is part of the problem in this forum,
people either deliberately or ignorantly MISreading the holy scriptures.

No, the problem is people who act as *APOLOGISTS* for that this god they
claim to worship has done or what the early followers claim he had them do.

"14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR
utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.
15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as
our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU,
16 speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In
them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and
unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to
their own destruction." (2Pe 3:14-16)

Indeed, some things are "hard to understand" and those like yourself who
are "untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the
Scriptures, to their own destruction."

The bible makes it perfectly CLEAR.... every atrocity this Hebrew god
perpetuated on mankind including genocide, slavery, kidnapping and the
sexual abuse of young girls. What's hard to understand unless one is
illiterate and cannot read at all? Where's the need to have someone explain
the killing of 43 boys for teasing a bald man? God having she-bears rip
them to bloody shreds. The angels this so-called loving god had slaughter
all the first borns of Egypt? No one needs to explain these things to
someone who can read.... they either happened or they didn't. They're just
more myths and fables or the god was a vicious blood thirsty killer. There
is no other explanation.
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 01:49:42 AM

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbqp9b$98c$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189142330_451@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbq2be$ojn$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189045598_14617@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

That's why he slaughtered so many people in the OT, including wiping out
whole towns and cities, except for the young virgins = who were given,
like animals, to the men of God's people?

Certainly you don't ascribe these atrocities to Jehovah God?

You obviously never read the OT page by page. They were directed to those
towns and cities and told to do what they did... and they did what they
were told to do. The young girls were given to the men of the tribe as
one gives a man a cat or a goat.

If so then you

haven't read the Bible carefully enough to discern between the actions of
primitive men who were given God's patience for the sake of future
humanity,

and the actions of God himself. That is part of the problem in this
forum, people either deliberately or ignorantly MISreading the holy
scriptures.

No, the problem is people who act as *APOLOGISTS* for that this god they
claim to worship has done or what the early followers claim he had them
do.

"14 Hence, beloved ones, since YOU are awaiting these things, do YOUR
utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.
15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as
our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote
YOU, 16 speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters.
In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught
and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures,
to their own destruction." (2Pe 3:14-16)

Indeed, some things are "hard to understand" and those like yourself who
are "untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of
the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

The bible makes it perfectly CLEAR.... every atrocity this Hebrew god
perpetuated on mankind including genocide, slavery, kidnapping and the
sexual abuse of young girls. What's hard to understand unless one is
illiterate and cannot read at all? Where's the need to have someone
explain the killing of 43 boys for teasing a bald man? God having
she-bears rip them to bloody shreds. The angels this so-called loving god
had slaughter all the first borns of Egypt? No one needs to explain these
things to someone who can read.... they either happened or they didn't.
They're just more myths and fables or the god was a vicious blood thirsty
killer. There is no other explanation.

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned. Places where God is
implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive perceptions
of the Israelites.
I'll say it again, you have no clue what the Bible teaches because you
haven't read it from cover to cover. You've taken little "sound bites" from
atheist sites and woven a tapestry of deceit and lies in your anti-JW
ministry.
.

User: "I.M. deLaw"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 12:14:30 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189147598_485@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned.

Please provide scripture proving he did not condone any of those things.
What about the 600 something laws he gave the Hebrews in the OT. If those
laws weren't from Jah, who were they from? Zeus?
Places where God is

implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive perceptions
of the Israelites.

Here comes the "apologist" nonsense. Then you also admit the flood never
happened, there was no Ark, no Adam and Eve with a talking serpent, no dead
man awoke after 3 days of decomposition...........all stories are based on
the primitive perceptions of the Israelites. You pick and choose what to
believe just like every other fundy.

I'll say it again, you have no clue what the Bible teaches because you
haven't read it from cover to cover.

Oh I have, and you know I have. Maybe it's something YOU need to do instead
of reading all those WTS rags and books.
You've taken little "sound bites" from

atheist sites and woven a tapestry of deceit and lies in your anti-JW
ministry.

Same old baseless accusations as you try to defend the indefensible.
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 03:48:08 AM

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbs0tm$2fs$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189147598_485@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned.

implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive
perceptions of the Israelites.

Here comes the "apologist" nonsense. Then you also admit the flood never
happened, there was no Ark, no Adam and Eve with a talking serpent, no
dead man awoke after 3 days of decomposition...........all stories are
based on the primitive perceptions of the Israelites. You pick and choose
what to believe just like every other fundy.

I'll say it again, you have no clue what the Bible teaches because you
haven't read it from cover to cover.

Oh I have, and you know I have. Maybe it's something YOU need to do
instead of reading all those WTS rags and books.

You've done WHAT... read Witness Inc.'s cliff notes they hand out to all
their missionaries in the field?
FYI, I have read the Bible cover to cover. I accepted the challenge by an
elder who studied the Bible with me... he said I would never regret it. And
I never have.

You've taken little "sound bites" from

atheist sites and woven a tapestry of deceit and lies in your anti-JW
ministry.

Same old baseless accusations as you try to defend the indefensible.

I don't need to defend the Bible, it stands on its own merits. You simply
have a personal vested interest in not believing it.
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User: "I.M. deLaw"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 04:20:37 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189241097_1453@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fbs0tm$2fs$1@registered.motzarella.org...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189147598_485@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned.

implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive
perceptions of the Israelites.

Here comes the "apologist" nonsense. Then you also admit the flood never
happened, there was no Ark, no Adam and Eve with a talking serpent, no
dead man awoke after 3 days of decomposition...........all stories are
based on the primitive perceptions of the Israelites. You pick and
choose what to believe just like every other fundy.

I'll say it again, you have no clue what the Bible teaches because you
haven't read it from cover to cover.

Oh I have, and you know I have. Maybe it's something YOU need to do
instead of reading all those WTS rags and books.

You've done WHAT... read Witness Inc.'s cliff notes they hand out to all
their missionaries in the field?

I did something you never did - I actually tossed out the WTS trash rags and
books and read the bible for myself.

FYI, I have read the Bible cover to cover. I accepted the challenge by an
elder who studied the Bible with me... he said I would never regret it.
And I never have.

Then you would be aware of the viciousness and cold-boldness of the Bronze
age Hebrew god. You would KNOW what's in the bible.

Same old baseless accusations as you try to defend the indefensible.

I don't need to defend the Bible, it stands on its own merits. You simply
have a personal vested interest in not believing it.

What's there to believe? It's a book of superstition, murder, manipulation,
fear, rape, kidnapping, disease, the killing of infants........ and you've
yet to provide one shred of evidence any of the god or goddesses exist.
.

User: "lare"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 02:25:55 PM

Responding,
answer ofr I.M.Law
Yes, there is fair share of superstition, murder, manipulation, fear,
rape, kidnapping, disease, the killing of infants........
Perhaps even worse under conditions of anarchy and war. Traditionally,
the "enlightenened ones" trash the Dark Ages for being the age of
sacred terror, yet under any imperial religious system there is always
the temptation to conformity and totalitarianism.
You can't blame it all on the bible, or the pope, or the roman
missionaries cramming their faith (and agriculture, work ethic,
morals) on the tribal volk of the northland forests.
The argument is an old one, a bold one.
Missionaries come, force their belief system, and treat the hunter-
gatherers like just being human is a moral SIN.
Yet, perhaps the work ethic and sedentary lifestyle was all in all, on
balance, a beneficial thing for our ancestors. The jury is still out
on that one.
I am slightly radical. It ought to be free will. I am in favor (here
in the states) of our first amendment.
I ought to have the same freedoms as you, and (no offense) not be
muzzled by your self-righteousness, your eagerness to CENSOR.
.

User: "Kenneth Doyle"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 07:12:42 PM

lare <cott1388@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1189452355.582227.251200@
22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

I ought to have the same freedoms as you, and (no offense) not be
muzzled by your self-righteousness, your eagerness to CENSOR.

Name one single instance of a religious publication being forcibly edited
by atheists, to remove something the author had originally included. We're
waiting...
.

User: "I.M. deLaw"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 08:47:22 PM

"Kenneth Doyle" <nobody@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99A867C69D680nobodynotmailcom@61.9.191.5...

lare <cott1388@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1189452355.582227.251200@
22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

I ought to have the same freedoms as you, and (no offense) not be
muzzled by your self-righteousness, your eagerness to CENSOR.

Name one single instance of a religious publication being forcibly edited
by atheists, to remove something the author had originally included.
We're
waiting...

Lare is another deceitful baptized JW and has been for a long time. Don't
bother to ask him any questions as you'll never get a "straight answer" from
him. All he does is waste people's time defending mother Watchtower as he
repeats the same old song and dance day after day after day.........
.

User: "Kenneth Doyle"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 09:10:49 PM

"I.M. deLaw" <durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote in
news:fc4s3h$9gv$1@registered.motzarella.org:

"Kenneth Doyle" <nobody@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99A867C69D680nobodynotmailcom@61.9.191.5...

lare <cott1388@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1189452355.582227.251200@
22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:

I ought to have the same freedoms as you, and (no offense) not be
muzzled by your self-righteousness, your eagerness to CENSOR.

Name one single instance of a religious publication being forcibly
edited by atheists, to remove something the author had originally
included. We're
waiting...

Lare is another deceitful baptized JW and has been for a long time.
Don't bother to ask him any questions as you'll never get a "straight
answer" from him. All he does is waste people's time defending mother
Watchtower as he repeats the same old song and dance day after day
after day.........

I'm not really expecting an answer. The most I could expect is some
mendacious re-definition of "censor". I like to watch them squirm.
.

User: "le t�n�breux"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 01:14:53 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned. Places where God
is implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive
perceptions of the Israelites.

I was discussing this with a Jewish work colleague recently
and she pretty much said the same thing. "Oh, that was just
Moses writing all that stuff down, HaShem didn't actually
tell them to do it."
If it wasn't God's intention for them to go around killing
everyone, couldn't he have stepped in and said something
the first time they ransacked a city? "Hey guys, that's
not what I meant. You really shouldn't do that. Look,
there's some nice land over there where nobody is living
right now. How about you go and possess that bit instead?"
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 03:42:52 AM

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:xygEi.10206$h%5.4737@fe06.usenetserver.com...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

God never condoned any of those things you mentioned. Places where God
is implied to condone these atrocities are based on the primitive
perceptions of the Israelites.

I was discussing this with a Jewish work colleague recently
and she pretty much said the same thing. "Oh, that was just
Moses writing all that stuff down, HaShem didn't actually
tell them to do it."

If it wasn't God's intention for them to go around killing
everyone, couldn't he have stepped in and said something
the first time they ransacked a city? "Hey guys, that's
not what I meant. You really shouldn't do that. Look,
there's some nice land over there where nobody is living
right now. How about you go and possess that bit instead?"

You've raised an excellent point and I agree with your Jewish work
colleague. Perhaps Jehovah DID tell them to do this but it was left out...
consider that a LOT of things were left out, otherwise, the Bible would be a
100 volume encyclopedic tome of every little thing that happened (on the
extreme end). Where do the authors draw the line... but let's just say the
authors DID NOT attempt to "draw the line" but rather, the early Church that
canonized the scriptures left out various writings that would shed light on
Jehovah's displeasure at the barbarism of the early Israelites?
That is why I'm convinced that if one really reads the Bible in its
entirety, with an honest heart, one gets a sense of the TRUTH about
Jehovah's personality and loving kindness. One starts to put faith first,
knowing that PROOF will follow to give a solid foundation to that faith!
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User: "Kathy"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 04:26:41 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189240781_1451@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

That is why I'm convinced that if one really reads the Bible in its
entirety, with an honest heart, one gets a sense of the TRUTH about
Jehovah's personality and loving kindness.

What loving kindness? Read Numbers 31 again. Then read how he maniacally
had she-bears rip 43 boys to bloody shreds for teasing a bald man, about the
slaughter of the first-borns, killing people with plague and torturing them
with boils, how it was ok to kidnap rape and sexually abuse young virgins.
How do you see this as loving kindness?
One starts to put faith first,

knowing that PROOF will follow to give a solid foundation to that faith!

There is no proof! There isn't even any evidence this particular god
exists.
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 05:45:38 PM

"Kathy" <Kathy9045@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46e31392$0$1345$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189240781_1451@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

That is why I'm convinced that if one really reads the Bible in its
entirety, with an honest heart, one gets a sense of the TRUTH about
Jehovah's personality and loving kindness.

What loving kindness? Read Numbers 31 again. Then read how he maniacally
had she-bears rip 43 boys to bloody shreds for teasing a bald man, about
the slaughter of the first-borns, killing people with plague and torturing
them with boils, how it was ok to kidnap rape and sexually abuse young
virgins. How do you see this as loving kindness?

One starts to put faith first,

knowing that PROOF will follow to give a solid foundation to that faith!

There is no proof! There isn't even any evidence this particular god
exists.

I gave Reverend Taylor my take of Numbers 31 and see he has responded. I
will go over there now and read his response. Perhaps you do well to do the
same instead of spouting your endless rantings against God.
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User: "Kathy"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 07:53:50 PM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1189291343_2333@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

Which God? There are 10,000 known gods. Your "take" is the typical
"apologist" take on your god's atrocities against mankind.
.

User: "lare"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	17 Sep 2007 07:59:57 PM

I have appreciated some of the genuine and (I believe) honest dialog.
Certwainly I cannot pass final judgement, both precison has offered
some thoughtful points, and often balanced, yes, Joe Smith, evenif
some of the first-hand narratives, whether much older, still the
apparent authenticity makes them attractive reading, yes, informative
to those who never realized.
An enemy who tells us the truth (we need to know) helps us infinitely
more than does a "friend" who deludes us, flatters us, or never
challenges us to stretch our limits, or dare to leave our comfort
zone.
Why shouldn't people be allowed to try whatever church or school they
want.
When people find a scapegoat, either religous, or ethnic, or just a
handy underdog, for example they blame Catholics, Witnesses, Quakers.
Totalitarian religion?
Dont forget it was thanks to Quakers and other underdog religon we
have freedom of conscience, but obviously, those who reject such
freedoms have not
given up their effort to intimidate, censor, and force thought
conformity.
As I said, don't blame Catholics. It's been a long long time since the
inquisition. Those who passionately feel that only fundy types can be
saved. Ever hear of Vatican II. It was an American who lobbied the
Council on behalf of freedom of religion, Father John Courtney Murray.
We Hold These Truths. Right now, because of islamic and marxist
pressures, the principle of church-stae concordat has had to assume a
resurgence in non first-world areas, for the time being.
I get branded a liberal, but it is true that I support freedom of
conscience, while I find myself torn over time-honored doctrines of
Christian (Catholic and Protestant) theology. We tend to forget the
ancient origins of our faith were not European at all, but judaic,
hebraic, hamitic, and yes Egyptian. That is, our religion did not
begin Western Civilization, or Europe, Caucasion sort of white
supremacy thing. look it up, you will see I am right. The Bible
originated in
Africa (the Nile) and the Middle East. The Garden of Eden included
Ethiopia.
A shock to a lot of know-it-all (whether Christian or anti-Christian)
Look it up. You will see that I am right.
.

User: "le t�n�breux"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 04:31:41 AM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

Perhaps Jehovah DID tell them to do this but it was left out...

Are we talking about the same God who is supposed to have been
protecting the Bible throughout history from corruption, destruction,
canonization and mistranslation because it is his inspired Word?
And at no point did he take a look at it and say: "Hey... what the...!?
This scroll has me explicitly commanding the Hebrews to go around
slaughtering and pillaging and to feel no pity! People are going to
get completely the wrong idea about me! Moses...you're fired!"
It's just too weird.
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 05:42:29 PM

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:1_tEi.20$6c4.2@fe05.usenetserver.com...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

Perhaps Jehovah DID tell them to do this but it was left out...

You're right. The road to the truth is just too weird. As scientists make
new discoveries hidden across this planet from the Biblical past, I
guarantee you it's going to just get weirder. We get right back to the
endless debate as to whether every word in every book the early Church
canonized is inerrant AND COMPLETE; or whether Christians are responsible
for examining all available Bible history over the course of their
lifetimes.
With the widespread dissemination of the Dead Sea Scrolls as a tiny
appetizer to the journey ahead, the availability of pseudocryphal books not
to mention the Apocrypha accepted by the Catholic Church, and then there's
the early Church fathers writings, it has become evident those seeking the
TRUTH about God have a lifelong learning process ahead!
Perhaps God decided to let true believers who sincerely seek Him, learn the
truth about Him over their lifetimes of studying all of these historical
facets. Might this form of ongoing study and scientific inquiry provide a
deeper, more profound and most powerful lesson to the truth seeker, instead
of God handing over the absolute and inerrant truth on a proverbial silver
platter in the form of a neatly packaged, gilded edged compendium of holy
books?
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User: "le t�n�breux"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	09 Sep 2007 12:34:31 AM

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

Perhaps God decided to let true believers who sincerely seek Him,
learn the truth about Him over their lifetimes of studying all of
these historical facets. Might this form of ongoing study and
scientific inquiry provide a deeper, more profound and most powerful
lesson to the truth seeker, instead of God handing over the absolute
and inerrant truth on a proverbial silver platter in the form of a
neatly packaged, gilded edged compendium of holy books?

I would absolutely agree with that. That's why I find it disturbing
when an organization behaves as if they already have that complete
package, and that any additional information is some sort of contaminant.
Have you seen the Question Box in the latest KM? Basically,
independent reasearch is bad - we have given you everything that
God wants you to know in our publications.
Maybe religion was put here to test our faith?
.

User: "Precision"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	11 Sep 2007 02:40:56 AM

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:HBLEi.1799$qc7.83@fe09.usenetserver.com...

"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote:

If I understand the spirit in which you made that last remark, I have had
similar thoughts. In the end, I have a feeling it will come down to having
to choose between serving God and the Watchtower. Of course God wins hands
down. We'll cross that bridge if we ever get there...
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User: "M.M. Martinson"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	09 Sep 2007 04:00:23 PM

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:HBLEi.1799$qc7.83@fe09.usenetserver.com...

What is the KM? Is there a site where I can read this? Also, who made the
claim, "independent reasearch is bad - we have given you everything that God
wants you to know in our publications?"
.

User: "le t�n�breux"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 07:42:06 AM

"M.M. Martinson" <mmm954@invalid.com> wrote:

What is the KM? Is there a site where I can read this? Also, who
made the claim, "independent reasearch is bad - we have given you
everything that God wants you to know in our publications?"

The KM ("Our Kingdom Ministry") is an internal publication given
to Jehovah's Witnesses every month with information about their
preaching work - what will be offered, what points to emphasize,
presentation suggestions, etc. Plus other points they think the
JWs need counsel on at that time.
The "independent research is bad" bit is just my own synopsis of
the Question Box in the September 2007 issue. Perhaps I'm being
unfair though, perhaps I'm taking something completely out of
context. So here is the complete article:
http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/21912/2001532577224620787_rs.jpg
QUESTION BOX
Does "the faithful and discreet slave" endorse independent groups of
Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or
debate? - Matt. 24:45,47.
No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few
associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent
research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent
group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the
accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific
subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and
chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views.
They have also held conferences and produced publications to
present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our
Christian meetings and through our literature.
Throughout the earth, Jehovah's people are receiving ample
spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings,
assemblies, and conventions, as well as through the publications
of Jehovah's organization. Under the guidance of his holy spirit
and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is
needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the
same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized
in the faith." (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6,7) Surely we are grateful
for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, "the
faithful and discreet slave" does not endorse any literature,
meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under
its oversight. - Matt. 24:45-47.
It is commendable for individuals to want to use their thinking
ability in support of the good news. However, no personal pursuit
should detract from what Jesus Christ is accomplishing through
his congregation on earth today. In the first century, the apostle
Paul warned about getting involved in exhausting, time consuming
subjects, such as "genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which
furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything
by God in connection with faith." (1 Tim. 1:3-7) All Christians
should strive to "shun foolish questionings and genealogies and
strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and
futile." - Titus 3:9.
For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we
recommend that they explore Insight On The Scriptures, "All
Scripture Is Inspired Of God And Beneficial," and our other
publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found
in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation. These
provide abundant material for Bible study and meditation,
whereby we can be "filled with the accurate knowledge of
[God's] will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in
order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing
him as [we] go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing
in the accurate knowledge of God." - Col. 1:9,10
.

User: "M.M. Martinson"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	10 Sep 2007 10:47:04 AM

From: "le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie>
Subject: Re: JWs USE FEAR
Date: Monday, September 10, 2007 7:42 AM
"M.M. Martinson" <mmm954@invalid.com> wrote:

What is the KM? Is there a site where I can read this? Also, who
made the claim, "independent reasearch is bad - we have given you
everything that God wants you to know in our publications?"

The KM ("Our Kingdom Ministry") is an internal publication given
to Jehovah's Witnesses every month with information about their
preaching work - what will be offered, what points to emphasize,
presentation suggestions, etc. Plus other points they think the
JWs need counsel on at that time.
The "independent research is bad" bit is just my own synopsis of
the Question Box in the September 2007 issue. Perhaps I'm being
unfair though, perhaps I'm taking something completely out of
context. So here is the complete article:
http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/21912/2001532577224620787_rs.jpg
--- Thank you. I read this over twice and you have not taken anything out
of context. If this isn't discouraging independent thought and thinking, I
don't know what is.
QUESTION BOX
Does "the faithful and discreet slave" endorse independent groups of
Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or
debate? - Matt. 24:45,47.
No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few
associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent
research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent
group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the
accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific
subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and
chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views.
They have also held conferences and produced publications to
present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our
Christian meetings and through our literature.
Throughout the earth, Jehovah's people are receiving ample
spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings,
assemblies, and conventions, as well as through the publications
of Jehovah's organization. Under the guidance of his holy spirit
and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is
needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the
same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized
in the faith." (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6,7) Surely we are grateful
for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, "the
faithful and discreet slave" does not endorse any literature,
meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under
its oversight. - Matt. 24:45-47.
It is commendable for individuals to want to use their thinking
ability in support of the good news. However, no personal pursuit
should detract from what Jesus Christ is accomplishing through
his congregation on earth today. In the first century, the apostle
Paul warned about getting involved in exhausting, time consuming
subjects, such as "genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which
furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything
by God in connection with faith." (1 Tim. 1:3-7) All Christians
should strive to "shun foolish questionings and genealogies and
strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and
futile." - Titus 3:9.
For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we
recommend that they explore Insight On The Scriptures, "All
Scripture Is Inspired Of God And Beneficial," and our other
publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found
in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation. These
provide abundant material for Bible study and meditation,
whereby we can be "filled with the accurate knowledge of
[God's] will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in
order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing
him as [we] go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing
in the accurate knowledge of God." - Col. 1:9,10
.

User: "Kathy"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 03:43:44 PM

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:xygEi.10206$h%5.4737@fe06.usenetserver.com...

If it wasn't God's intention for them to go around killing
everyone, couldn't he have stepped in and said something
the first time they ransacked a city? "Hey guys, that's
not what I meant. You really shouldn't do that. Look,
there's some nice land over there where nobody is living
right now. How about you go and possess that bit instead?"

But that land wouldn't have come with livestock and pretty young virgins.
.

User: "Don Martin"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	08 Sep 2007 07:56:00 AM

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:43:44 -0500, "Kathy" <Kathy9045@gmail.com>
wrote:

"le t�n�breux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie> wrote in message
news:xygEi.10206$h%5.4737@fe06.usenetserver.com...

But that land wouldn't have come with livestock and pretty young virgins.

The trouble with getting hooked on pretty young virgins is that the
flavor just doesn't last. They don't stay young very long, the
prettiness oft takes less time to vanish, and the virginity, like the
bloom on a rose, is shattered at the first touch. Very soon, you find
youself needing another fix, and so off to the next town you go for a
bit of sacking.
God says it's OK (in the good old days before rehabilitation reared
its dreary head).
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
.

User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor"
Title: Re: JWs USE FEAR	07 Sep 2007 06:56:10 AM

Precision wrote: