| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
08 Apr 2005 11:14:41 AM |
| Object: |
Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month will have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's schools should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
J. Spaceman
--
My email address (notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
.
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| User: "Jason Spaceman" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 11:51:47 PM |
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Also see 'Evolution backers to boycott Kansas hearings'
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050408152158253
From the article:
---------------------------
Fri, Apr. 08, 2005
By DIANE CARROLL
The Kansas City Star
?Intelligent design is not going to get its forum, at least not one in which
they can say that scientists participated.? Harry McDonald, Kansas Citizens for
Science
It looks as if the coming hearings on the Kansas science standards will be a
one-sided event.
Proponents of intelligent design have lined up 23 witnesses ? including one from
Italy and another from Turkey ? to support their point of view.
But scientists who defend evolution apparently are boycotting the hearings, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of Education.
-----------------------------
Any idea who they are flying in from Turkey? Harun Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out?
J. Spaceman
--
My email address (notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
.
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 03:26:14 AM |
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
news:uYydnX-g1bCShMrfRVn-1g@rogers.com:
Also see 'Evolution backers to boycott Kansas hearings'
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20050408152158253
From the article:
---------------------------
Fri, Apr. 08, 2005
By DIANE CARROLL
The Kansas City Star
?Intelligent design is not going to get its forum, at least not one in
which they can say that scientists participated.? Harry McDonald,
Kansas Citizens for Science
It looks as if the coming hearings on the Kansas science standards
will be a one-sided event.
Proponents of intelligent design have lined up 23 witnesses ?
including one from Italy and another from Turkey ? to support their
point of view.
But scientists who defend evolution apparently are boycotting the
hearings, said Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state
Department of Education. -----------------------------
Any idea who they are flying in from Turkey? Harun Get Yer Ya-Ya's
Out?
I would just _love_ for Harun Yahya to show up.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"Creationists don't want equal time. They want all the time there is."
- Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 12:17:34 PM |
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In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
.
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| User: "RHertz" |
|
| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 03:53:35 PM |
|
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"Frank J Warner" <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote in message
news:080420050517349806%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net...
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month
will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school
children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to
testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed,
said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There
isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
That is a very stupid strategy. It will backfire for certain. It is the
same strategy that the Soviets used when they boycotted a certain UN
Security Council meeting. It didn't work then, and it WILL NOT work in this
issue. We need to confront these people head on!! Staying away from this
meeting is COWARDICE. Scientists have a DUTY to STAND UP AND SPEAK THE
TRUTH!!!
This is also incredible political naiveté. Their absence will be taken as
acquiescence. "Silence equal consent". Instead, 100 scientists with
impeccable credentials should appear as witnesses at EVERY BOE meeting where
this issue comes up to state flatly that creationists and IDer's are wrong
and to put before the public their argument in language so clear and
convincing that it commands their ascent.
The Kansas BOE has implied "legitimacy" because it is an elected body. You
cannot ignore that fact simply because there are a few ignoramuses that were
elected to it. Scientists do not have the power to deny that any elected
person or body lacks "legitimacy". In fact, the scientists need to
establish their own political "legitimacy". More than half the public
believes a lie, and that is as much the responsibility of the Scientific
Community as it is that of the reactionary theocrats who are spreading that
lie.
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
.
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| User: "Stan Gosnell, FCD" |
|
| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 11:50:04 PM |
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"RHertz" <rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote in
news:yNx5e.1689$d43.1177@lakeread03:
That is a very stupid strategy. It will backfire for certain. It is
the same strategy that the Soviets used when they boycotted a certain
UN Security Council meeting. It didn't work then, and it WILL NOT
work in this issue. We need to confront these people head on!!
Staying away from this meeting is COWARDICE. Scientists have a DUTY
to STAND UP AND SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!
This is a *minority report* meeting. Meaning a minority of the BOE is
***** that it got voted down, and is holding its own hearings, which
do not have the approval of the complete BOE. These folks have made up
their minds in advance, and legitimizing them is a waste of time.
--
Regards,
Stan
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:07:55 PM |
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Stan Gosnell, FCD wrote:
"RHertz" <rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote in
news:yNx5e.1689$d43.1177@lakeread03:
That is a very stupid strategy. It will backfire for certain. It
is
the same strategy that the Soviets used when they boycotted a
certain
UN Security Council meeting. It didn't work then, and it WILL NOT
work in this issue. We need to confront these people head on!!
Staying away from this meeting is COWARDICE. Scientists have a
DUTY
to STAND UP AND SPEAK THE TRUTH!!!
This is a *minority report* meeting. Meaning a minority of the BOE
is
***** that it got voted down, and is holding its own hearings,
which
do not have the approval of the complete BOE. These folks have made
up
their minds in advance, and legitimizing them is a waste of time.
--
Regards,
Stan
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
Right. And noone who has followed these types of conferences, debates,
etc. will expect to see -any- floor time given to the oponents. It will
be another smoke and mirrors show with the antis either ignored or
snowed under with so many absurd claims they have no chance to rebut.
Harry K
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:14:04 AM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Friday 08 April 2005 11:53 am
rhertz314@spamlesscox.net wrote:
"Frank J Warner" <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote in message
news:080420050517349806%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net...
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month
will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school
children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to
testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed,
said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There
isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
That is a very stupid strategy. It will backfire for certain. It is the
same strategy that the Soviets used when they boycotted a certain UN
Security Council meeting. It didn't work then, and it WILL NOT work in
this
issue. We need to confront these people head on!! Staying away from this
meeting is COWARDICE. Scientists have a DUTY to STAND UP AND SPEAK THE
TRUTH!!!
This is also incredible political naiveté. Their absence will be taken
as
acquiescence. "Silence equal consent". Instead, 100 scientists with
impeccable credentials should appear as witnesses at EVERY BOE meeting
where this issue comes up to state flatly that creationists and IDer's are
wrong and to put before the public their argument in language so clear and
convincing that it commands their ascent.
The Kansas BOE has implied "legitimacy" because it is an elected body.
You cannot ignore that fact simply because there are a few ignoramuses
that were
elected to it. Scientists do not have the power to deny that any elected
person or body lacks "legitimacy". In fact, the scientists need to
establish their own political "legitimacy". More than half the public
believes a lie, and that is as much the responsibility of the Scientific
Community as it is that of the reactionary theocrats who are spreading
that lie.
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its
head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
In the end, it won't matter if the majority on that school board are
fundamentalists. In a battle of facts vs faith, faith will win every time
for them. You write as though you are speaking of educated individuals.
Have you ever looked at the qualifications of most people on school boards?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
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| User: "Hatunen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 05:23:49 PM |
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On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:53:35 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
Easy to say about scientists as a group, but useless because
scientists do not constitute such a group and creationists do.
Individual scientist have better things to do than ***** upwind by
testifying at a political circus.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
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| User: "RHertz" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 06:08:10 PM |
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"Hatunen" <hatuunen@cox.net> wrote in message
news:udfd515e6rnned6vhmkb7q7cv5rv7qhs1r@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:53:35 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its
head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
Easy to say about scientists as a group, but useless because
scientists do not constitute such a group and creationists do.
Individual scientist have better things to do than ***** upwind by
testifying at a political circus.
With that kind of defeatist attitude, Science and civilization are going to
lose. Reactionary theocracy will win and then the theocrats will arrest
all the scientists, cut off their grants, and burn them at the stake as
heretics. Don't say it won't happen, and don't come crying to me when it
does.
GET INVOLVED. You have everything to lose! This is your fight, whether you
admit it or not. We must be proactive in this long twilight struggle
against the theocrats. Don't just curl up your lip and sneer at them, FIGHT
THEM! Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!
.
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| User: "Hatunen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 07:40:40 PM |
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On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:08:10 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
"Hatunen" <hatuunen@cox.net> wrote in message
news:udfd515e6rnned6vhmkb7q7cv5rv7qhs1r@4ax.com...
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:53:35 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its
head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
Easy to say about scientists as a group, but useless because
scientists do not constitute such a group and creationists do.
Individual scientist have better things to do than ***** upwind by
testifying at a political circus.
With that kind of defeatist attitude, Science and civilization are going to
lose. Reactionary theocracy will win and then the theocrats will arrest
all the scientists, cut off their grants, and burn them at the stake as
heretics. Don't say it won't happen, and don't come crying to me when it
does.
My, you do go off the deep end, don't you?
GET INVOLVED. You have everything to lose! This is your fight, whether you
admit it or not. We must be proactive in this long twilight struggle
against the theocrats. Don't just curl up your lip and sneer at them, FIGHT
THEM! Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!
Then I suggest you GET INVOLVED and organize the scientists to
testify at these fiascos. Clue: the working scientists aren't
reading this newsgroup so you've got to go to them. And find a
way to get them to the hearings in Topeka, including airfare and
lodging, since very few of them are working in Topeka. If you
feel that strongly maybe you could start an organization.
Sitting on your ***** at your computer isn't doing any good.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
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| User: "Pithecanthropus Erectus" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 06:29:49 PM |
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Hatunen wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:53:35 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
Easy to say about scientists as a group, but useless because
scientists do not constitute such a group and creationists do.
Individual scientist have better things to do than ***** upwind by
testifying at a political circus.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Then they need to recruit somebody to respond at these circuses cause
they are going to end up in breadlines before the ID'ers and Creationists.
NCSE should at least be able to throw together a few orators to kick
some evolution-denyer butt.
--
"God Forbid we should actually test anything."
Creationism
"The curses of Deuteronomy 28 will plague America until we return to God
(Ps 9:17). Wealth and military might are not substitutes for God-given
character and blessing. Freedom comes, not from democracy, but Jesus
Christ. The outline below lists our wars & keys to victory. May God lead
us in the strategic and tactical prayers that are required!"
Capitol Hill Action Network, 2005
.
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| User: "Hatunen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 07:55:15 PM |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:29:49 -0500, Pithecanthropus Erectus
<tuibguy1EGNUM@comcast.net> wrote:
Hatunen wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:53:35 -0400, "RHertz"
<rhertz314@spamlesscox.net> wrote:
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
Easy to say about scientists as a group, but useless because
scientists do not constitute such a group and creationists do.
Individual scientist have better things to do than ***** upwind by
testifying at a political circus.
Then they need to recruit somebody to respond at these circuses cause
they are going to end up in breadlines before the ID'ers and Creationists.
Who, exactly, are the "they" who you are claiming need to recruit
someone? Are you doing it? Why not?
NCSE should at least be able to throw together a few orators to kick
some evolution-denyer butt.
NCSE doesn't appear to be in the recruiting business. And the
history of scientists in hearings of this sort is pretty dismal,
since scientists suffer from the disability of being rational and
not demogogic. Also, of course, school boards are political
animals and easily note that there are more voters on the
creationist side than in-state scientist/voters on the evolution
side.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
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| User: "Pithecanthropus Erectus" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 06:27:16 PM |
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RHertz wrote:
"Frank J Warner" <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote in message
news:080420050517349806%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net...
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month
will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school
children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to
testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed,
said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There
isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
That is a very stupid strategy. It will backfire for certain. It is the
same strategy that the Soviets used when they boycotted a certain UN
Security Council meeting. It didn't work then, and it WILL NOT work in this
issue. We need to confront these people head on!! Staying away from this
meeting is COWARDICE. Scientists have a DUTY to STAND UP AND SPEAK THE
TRUTH!!!
This is also incredible political naiveté. Their absence will be taken as
acquiescence. "Silence equal consent". Instead, 100 scientists with
impeccable credentials should appear as witnesses at EVERY BOE meeting where
this issue comes up to state flatly that creationists and IDer's are wrong
and to put before the public their argument in language so clear and
convincing that it commands their ascent.
The Kansas BOE has implied "legitimacy" because it is an elected body. You
cannot ignore that fact simply because there are a few ignoramuses that were
elected to it. Scientists do not have the power to deny that any elected
person or body lacks "legitimacy". In fact, the scientists need to
establish their own political "legitimacy". More than half the public
believes a lie, and that is as much the responsibility of the Scientific
Community as it is that of the reactionary theocrats who are spreading that
lie.
We are right on this issue. Confront the enemy wherever it rears its head.
Do not be afraid. Do your duty to the truth.
You got it exactly straight. Their political argument will be that
science is afraid to confront ID, afraid to defend evolution. It may be
a stupid argument, but it will play well in Manhattan, Minneapolis (yes
there is one in Kansas), Liberal, Durango, Plainview and Hays. And it
will even attract some nods of assent in Kansas City, Wichita and Topeka.
--
"God Forbid we should actually test anything."
Creationism
"The curses of Deuteronomy 28 will plague America until we return to God
(Ps 9:17). Wealth and military might are not substitutes for God-given
character and blessing. Freedom comes, not from democracy, but Jesus
Christ. The outline below lists our wars & keys to victory. May God lead
us in the strategic and tactical prayers that are required!"
Capitol Hill Action Network, 2005
.
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| User: "Ron O" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 12:58:02 PM |
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Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point. Let them admit that there isn't a
scientific theory of ID to teach. Let them admit that they haven't
been able to produce any testable hypotheses. Ask them for a single
positive example of ID in nature. Where has their designer ever been
verified to have done something in nature? If such an example existed
we would already be teaching it.
All the Discovery Institute has been able to do to obfuscate the issue
is to claim that some of the governing board didn't have first hand
knowledge of ID. It doesn't matter if everyone in the AAAS knows about
ID because ID really isn't worth knowing about. Why should scientist
waste their time on ID at this point? If there are a few of them fine,
but until it starts to matter for their own research most scientists
will continue to ignore it. What matters is that the statements stand
and have not been retracted. Not a single ID advocate will be able to
counter the AAAS statement with real research or a real scientific
hypothesis.
If they try and blather about a controversy, they should be asked "What
controversy?" What does it have to do with ID or creationism?
They should be asked point blank just like they were at the Ohio state
board meeting "Do you have anything to teach about ID?" Not a single
ID advocate put anything forward to teach when asked that question.
Not a single one of these guys will either unless you have someone that
is mentally off his rocker. If anything is put forward there will be a
lot of moaning on the ID side about how it will be misinterpreted.
They don't have anything that they can put forward and not look like
IDiots.
If the ID advocates go into their teach the controversy scam routine,
just ask them the same question again "Do you have anything to teach
about ID?" Just like the Ohio board meeting they won't come up with
anything. That was the most damning thing about the ID advocates that
included Meyers and Wells at the Ohio board meeting. Not a single one
of them had anything that they were willing to put forward as being
teachable about ID. The only thing that they put forward was the
"teach the controversy" scam that didn't have any ID in it.
That should give a message to the Kansas board that there is nothing to
trust about the guys that they trust. 23 or 2300 it won't matter
because not a single ID advocate has science education as a priority.
They all are interested in teaching something else. That will become
very apparent when they are asked "Do you have anything to teach about
ID?" We know what the answer was in Ohio. "Nothing."
Ron Okimoto
.
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| User: "Jim Guillory" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 03:44:44 PM |
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"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point. Let them admit that there isn't a
scientific theory of ID to teach. Let them admit that they haven't
been able to produce any testable hypotheses. Ask them for a single
positive example of ID in nature. Where has their designer ever been
verified to have done something in nature? If such an example existed
we would already be teaching it.
Unfortunately you have it backwards. The committee will not ask the ID
advocates to defend ID. They will not ask what to teach about ID. They will
only ask them about flaws in evolution. Its the old creationist argument: if
something is wrong with evolution, then creationism must be true and never
mind about any evidence to support creationism.
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
Regards,
Jim
.
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| User: "Ron O" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 09:22:19 PM |
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Jim Guillory wrote:
"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the
state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had
agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she
said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to
boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real
legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they
can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make
the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science
education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point. Let them admit that there isn't a
scientific theory of ID to teach. Let them admit that they haven't
been able to produce any testable hypotheses. Ask them for a
single
positive example of ID in nature. Where has their designer ever
been
verified to have done something in nature? If such an example
existed
we would already be teaching it.
Unfortunately you have it backwards. The committee will not ask the
ID
advocates to defend ID. They will not ask what to teach about ID.
They will
only ask them about flaws in evolution. Its the old creationist
argument: if
something is wrong with evolution, then creationism must be true and
never
mind about any evidence to support creationism.
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
Regards,
Jim
This could be true if there isn't a single science advocate on the
committee. Just one honest guy can make the IDers look like the clowns
that they are. What would be wrong with asking them what they think
that they can teach about ID. If they admit that there isn't anything
to teach, what would be wrong with asking them what the "controversy"
has to do with anything that they want the students to learn? If they
have nothing to teach they obviously can't claim that ID is part of any
scientific controversy. It would be worth it just to get the goof
balls like Dembski to commit to something.
Ron Okimoto
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 01:38:24 AM |
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"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Jim Guillory wrote:
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
This could be true if there isn't a single science advocate on the
committee.
Which seems likely, given where this is taking place, and the agenda of
those who organized it.
Just one honest guy can make the IDers look like the clowns
that they are. What would be wrong with asking them what they think
that they can teach about ID.
Nothing. But nobody who thinks that way is likely to be (or have been)
appointed to the committee.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
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| User: "Ron O" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:23:43 AM |
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Stanley Friesen wrote:
"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Jim Guillory wrote:
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to
have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
This could be true if there isn't a single science advocate on the
committee.
Which seems likely, given where this is taking place, and the agenda
of
those who organized it.
Just one honest guy can make the IDers look like the clowns
that they are. What would be wrong with asking them what they think
that they can teach about ID.
Nothing. But nobody who thinks that way is likely to be (or have
been)
appointed to the committee.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
Even the scam artists like Dembski and Meyers have more self respect
than to parade in a dog and pony show as lame as that. If this
committee is stacked, who would they get to attend on the ID side? The
fundamentalist creationists on the board only have a majority of one or
two people. It isn't like Dover, and even if it was you didn't see the
Discovery Institute claiming anything there except that the board was
"misguided."
They could have created a panel composed only of IDiots, but who would
participate in such a blatant scam? They claim that they have 23 ID
proponents willing to present their junk. Does anyone have a list of
names? Who got on the panel?
Ron Okimoto
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| User: "Hatunen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:15:33 AM |
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On 8 Apr 2005 14:22:19 -0700, "Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Jim Guillory wrote:
"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the
state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had
agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she
said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to
boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real
legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they
can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make
the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science
education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point. Let them admit that there isn't a
scientific theory of ID to teach. Let them admit that they haven't
been able to produce any testable hypotheses. Ask them for a
single
positive example of ID in nature. Where has their designer ever
been
verified to have done something in nature? If such an example
existed
we would already be teaching it.
Unfortunately you have it backwards. The committee will not ask the
ID
advocates to defend ID. They will not ask what to teach about ID.
They will
only ask them about flaws in evolution. Its the old creationist
argument: if
something is wrong with evolution, then creationism must be true and
never
mind about any evidence to support creationism.
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
Regards,
Jim
This could be true if there isn't a single science advocate on the
committee. Just one honest guy can make the IDers look like the clowns
that they are.
Look like clowns to whom? It's not you or me that would be the
object of such testimony, and no one is going to look like a
clown to those who already believe the way the creationists do.
What would be wrong with asking them what they think
that they can teach about ID. If they admit that there isn't anything
to teach, what would be wrong with asking them what the "controversy"
has to do with anything that they want the students to learn? If they
have nothing to teach they obviously can't claim that ID is part of any
scientific controversy. It would be worth it just to get the goof
balls like Dembski to commit to something.
I should think past evidence should be sufficient to show that a
reasoned response isn't going to work here.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
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| User: "Ron O" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:12:53 AM |
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Hatunen wrote:
On 8 Apr 2005 14:22:19 -0700, "Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Jim Guillory wrote:
"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards
next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching
public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the
state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had
agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department
of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she
said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to
boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real
legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If
they
can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is
make
the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science
education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point. Let them admit that there isn't a
scientific theory of ID to teach. Let them admit that they
haven't
been able to produce any testable hypotheses. Ask them for a
single
positive example of ID in nature. Where has their designer ever
been
verified to have done something in nature? If such an example
existed
we would already be teaching it.
Unfortunately you have it backwards. The committee will not ask
the
ID
advocates to defend ID. They will not ask what to teach about ID.
They will
only ask them about flaws in evolution. Its the old creationist
argument: if
something is wrong with evolution, then creationism must be true
and
never
mind about any evidence to support creationism.
The outcome was decided before the committee even decided to
have a
debate. The committee will find that evolution is flawed.
Regards,
Jim
This could be true if there isn't a single science advocate on the
committee. Just one honest guy can make the IDers look like the
clowns
that they are.
Look like clowns to whom? It's not you or me that would be the
object of such testimony, and no one is going to look like a
clown to those who already believe the way the creationists do.
What would be wrong with asking them what they think
that they can teach about ID. If they admit that there isn't
anything
to teach, what would be wrong with asking them what the
"controversy"
has to do with anything that they want the students to learn? If
they
have nothing to teach they obviously can't claim that ID is part of
any
scientific controversy. It would be worth it just to get the goof
balls like Dembski to commit to something.
I should think past evidence should be sufficient to show that a
reasoned response isn't going to work here.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
It probably isn't going to changes the diehards minds. That didn't
happen in Ohio. Even after the Ohio State board was convinced that
there was nothing about ID to teach and that they would look stupid
trying to teach what there was, they still went with the replacement
scam. They even took it from the scam artists that sold them on the ID
scam in the first place. Not only that, but they tried to sneak
ID/creationism into the lesson plan through the back door. So there
isn't much hope for people that are that dishonest.
I just assume that since the Kansas board only has a majority of
creationists/IDiots that there will be at least one pro science person
on the board. It would be pretty pathetic if they composed the whole
show with only fundamentalist creationists on the panel. Even other
creationists would balk at coming to parade before such a panel. There
would be no semblance of an honest approach to this problem. Well,
Hovind would probably come. He was supposed to be the outside expert
in 1999 for the Kansas board.
All that the science side can expect is that the IDiots are made to
look so foolish that they will be embarrassed to try anything too
stupid. That they will try something stupid is a given. It is just a
matter of seeing how stupid it will be.
Ron Okimoto
.
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| User: "Hatunen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 03:41:05 AM |
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On 8 Apr 2005 19:12:53 -0700, "Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
I should think past evidence should be sufficient to show that a
reasoned response isn't going to work here.
It probably isn't going to changes the diehards minds. That didn't
happen in Ohio. Even after the Ohio State board was convinced that
there was nothing about ID to teach and that they would look stupid
trying to teach what there was, they still went with the replacement
scam. They even took it from the scam artists that sold them on the ID
scam in the first place. Not only that, but they tried to sneak
ID/creationism into the lesson plan through the back door. So there
isn't much hope for people that are that dishonest.
I just assume that since the Kansas board only has a majority of
creationists/IDiots that there will be at least one pro science person
on the board. It would be pretty pathetic if they composed the whole
show with only fundamentalist creationists on the panel.
Boards of Education are elected. I can't see any reason why there
should be a science person on the Board.
You might find Richard Feynmann's description of serving on the
board selecting California's texts enlightening.
Even other
creationists would balk at coming to parade before such a panel.
Are you kidding?? After they worked so hard to get a Board like
that elected??
There
would be no semblance of an honest approach to this problem. Well,
Hovind would probably come. He was supposed to be the outside expert
in 1999 for the Kansas board.
All that the science side can expect is that the IDiots are made to
look so foolish that they will be embarrassed to try anything too
stupid.
Look stupid to whom? they won't look stupid to the other
creationists that will be packing the audience.
That they will try something stupid is a given. It is just a
matter of seeing how stupid it will be.
We, you and I, will probably find it amusing in a pathetic sort
of way, but neither you nor I is a Kansan and likely to have an
influence (although I used to be a Kansan).
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
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| User: "Ron O" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
09 Apr 2005 02:41:09 AM |
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Hatunen wrote:
On 8 Apr 2005 19:12:53 -0700, "Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
I should think past evidence should be sufficient to show that a
reasoned response isn't going to work here.
It probably isn't going to changes the diehards minds. That didn't
happen in Ohio. Even after the Ohio State board was convinced that
there was nothing about ID to teach and that they would look stupid
trying to teach what there was, they still went with the replacement
scam. They even took it from the scam artists that sold them on the
ID
scam in the first place. Not only that, but they tried to sneak
ID/creationism into the lesson plan through the back door. So there
isn't much hope for people that are that dishonest.
I just assume that since the Kansas board only has a majority of
creationists/IDiots that there will be at least one pro science
person
on the board. It would be pretty pathetic if they composed the
whole
show with only fundamentalist creationists on the panel.
Boards of Education are elected. I can't see any reason why there
should be a science person on the Board.
SNIP:
They are elected. This is the first year since the 1999 debacle, where
the creationist were made to look so stupid that they got voted out of
the majority, that the creationist/IDiots have again gained a majority
on the board.
Ron Okimoto
.
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| User: "Marc Carter" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
10 Apr 2005 02:46:08 AM |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:41:09 -0700, Ron O wrote:
Hatunen wrote:
On 8 Apr 2005 19:12:53 -0700, "Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
I should think past evidence should be sufficient to show that a
reasoned response isn't going to work here.
It probably isn't going to changes the diehards minds. That didn't
happen in Ohio. Even after the Ohio State board was convinced that
there was nothing about ID to teach and that they would look stupid
trying to teach what there was, they still went with the replacement
scam. They even took it from the scam artists that sold them on the
ID
scam in the first place. Not only that, but they tried to sneak
ID/creationism into the lesson plan through the back door. So there
isn't much hope for people that are that dishonest.
I just assume that since the Kansas board only has a majority of
creationists/IDiots that there will be at least one pro science
person
on the board. It would be pretty pathetic if they composed the
whole
show with only fundamentalist creationists on the panel.
Boards of Education are elected. I can't see any reason why there should
be a science person on the Board.
SNIP:
They are elected. This is the first year since the 1999 debacle, where
the creationist were made to look so stupid that they got voted out of the
majority, that the creationist/IDiots have again gained a majority on the
board.
Damn. Now we're going to have to vote them out again.
The story in the Lawrence Journal-World had it that there was one
scientist going to be there, and I thought that was enough. As long as he
explains what science is and shows that ID ain't it, doesn't try to
defend evolution other than as science, and doesn't get into questioning
what ID purports to teach, it could work.
Then again, that assumes some rationality on the parts of the membership
of the board, and about that I am not sanguine.
m
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
10 Apr 2005 01:42:36 PM |
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Marc Carter <marcMUNGEcarter@speakMUNGEeasy.net> wrote:
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:41:09 -0700, Ron O wrote:
They are elected. This is the first year since the 1999 debacle, where
the creationist were made to look so stupid that they got voted out of the
majority, that the creationist/IDiots have again gained a majority on the
board.
Damn. Now we're going to have to vote them out again.
The story in the Lawrence Journal-World had it that there was one
scientist going to be there, and I thought that was enough. As long as he
explains what science is and shows that ID ain't it, doesn't try to
defend evolution other than as science, and doesn't get into questioning
what ID purports to teach, it could work.
Hey, my home town. Are you a associated with KU?
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Now Heres Clayton With The Weather" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 10:50:11 PM |
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"Ron O" <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
And then it get thrown out by the supreme court anyway after it's
introduced!
.
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| User: "Robert Grumbine" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
11 Apr 2005 07:42:51 PM |
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In article <1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Ron O <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point.
How are you going to _make_ the theocrats and their ID lackeys
address anything?
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
11 Apr 2005 11:57:37 PM |
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(Robert Grumbine) wrote in news:115lkpr4ga6hf91
@corp.supernews.com:
In article <1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Ron O <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point.
How are you going to _make_ the theocrats and their ID lackeys
address anything?
As far as I can see, there is only one way to handle this kind of thing.
Hold a PROPER, public hearing, with real rules of evidence and real
penalties for violating them. Invite the IDists and YEC's and any other
nonsense-peddlers who want to show up to do so. Then the ball is in
THEIR court and their kangaroo court can either adopt proper rules or
stand down.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
.
|
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|
| User: "Danny Kodicek" |
|
| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
12 Apr 2005 12:02:07 AM |
|
|
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9635AC863CB51doldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
bobg@radix.net (Robert Grumbine) wrote in news:115lkpr4ga6hf91
@corp.supernews.com:
In article <1112965082.431051.186590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Ron O <pokemoto@aol.com> wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next
month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public
school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed
to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been
confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
This strategy could backfire on the science communittee. If they can't
get enough people for the science side all they have to do is make the
23 ID advocates address the AAAS statement on ID and science education.
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id2.shtml
Make them address each point.
How are you going to _make_ the theocrats and their ID lackeys
address anything?
As far as I can see, there is only one way to handle this kind of thing.
Hold a PROPER, public hearing, with real rules of evidence and real
penalties for violating them. Invite the IDists and YEC's and any other
nonsense-peddlers who want to show up to do so. Then the ball is in
THEIR court and their kangaroo court can either adopt proper rules or
stand down.
The problem is that this has already happened several times and the IDists
lost every time. This is the only way they've found to get the verdict they
want.
Danny
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 04:25:38 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 05:17:34 -0700, Frank J Warner
<warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed, said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said. "There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
Unfortunately, this strategy will more than likely have the exact
opposite effect. ID proponents will claim that scientists refuse to
defend evolution because they can't. The uneducated masses will
believe them. ID wins. Education loses.
-Frank
.
|
|
|
| User: "Now Heres Clayton With The Weather" |
|
| Title: Re: Kansas: Evolution hearings likely to be one-sided |
08 Apr 2005 10:53:06 PM |
|
|
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:d1cd51ljdeitgf48hgaukm22girh7cdcbe@4ax.com...
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 05:17:34 -0700, Frank J Warner
<warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
In article <CoWdnfPBzNc8-svfRVn-rg@rogers.com>, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
-------------------------------
Associated Press
TOPEKA, Kan. - Public hearings on Kansas science standards next month
will
have
as many as 23 witnesses speaking in support of teaching public school
children
intelligent design alongside the theory of evolution.
But there won't be much of a voice for people who say the state's
schools
should
only teach evolution. As of Thursday, only one scientist had agreed to
testify
for the pro-evolution side, and his appearance has not been confirmed,
said
Alexa Posny, assistant commissioner for the state Department of
Education.
"We have contacted scientists from all over the world," she said.
"There isn't
anywhere else we can go."
-------------------------------
Read it at http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/11341051.htm
There is a tacit understanding in the scientific community to boycott
these meetings in order to deny the Kansas BOE any real legitimacy.
Unfortunately, this strategy will more than likely have the exact
opposite effect. ID proponents will claim that scientists refuse to
defend evolution because they can't. The uneducated masses will
believe them. ID wins. Education loses.
The the SCOTUS throws the whole thing out. Debating with creationists using
science is pointless because those they are debating to are almost
completely ignorant and the ID people are better showmen. Might as well
save the science for when it will actually be paid attention too!
.
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