| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
02 Oct 2005 03:33:11 PM |
| Object: |
Keep religious theory out of class |
http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
Keep religious theory out of class
THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
Sunday, October 2, 2005
“Intelligent design” should not be taught in public school science classes
because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America’s commitment to
diversity and jeopardizes our children’s future.
As a lawsuit under way now in federal district court will show, intelligent
design — or ID — is a religious concept, not a scientific theory. ID
advocates say the universe is so complex that it must have been created by
a designer. Although they stop short of saying that the designer is God,
they offer no other plausible explanation.
Members of the Dover, Pa., school board were a little more candid about
their sectarian agenda when they voted last year to require schools to
offer ID as an alternative to evolution in biology class.
When the resolution was adopted, one school member said, “Two thousand
years ago, someone died on a cross. Can’t someone take a stand for him?”
In other words, the school board majority is using the school system to
advance a particular religious perspective, and that violates the
separation of church and state. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on two
occasions that elected officials cannot change the science curriculum to
please religious pressure groups.
In a 1968 case, the justices overturned an Arkansas law banning the
teaching of evolution; in a 1987 case, they struck down a Louisiana statute
requiring schools to give equal time to “creation science” and evolution.
Those decisions reflect sound constitutional law and also common sense.
America is home to 2,000 denominations and faith groups. They each have
their own perspectives on the origins of human life and the universe. Even
if it were constitutional, it would be impossible to teach them all in
science class.
And it is certainly wrong to select one and leave out all the others.
I am an ordained Christian minister, and I deeply appreciate the
constitutional right of all faith traditions to disseminate their religious
viewpoints. But I strongly believe that public school science classes are
not the place to do it.
In America, we do not allow the government to meddle in religious matters.
Decisions about faith are left up to each individual, and politicians and
bureaucrats are forbidden to trespass in that very personal corner of our
lives.
Our nation is increasingly diverse when it comes to religion. Out of
respect for and recognition of that pluralism, we must ensure that our
public schools leave religious instruction to parents. Some families will
choose a particular faith, and some will choose no religious path all.
We must also think about the effect of this issue on our public schools and
the students who learn there.
America is increasingly challenged to compete in a world economy. If our
children are to be ready for that competition, they must have the best
instruction possible in the sciences as well as other parts of the
curriculum. The National Academy of the Sciences has repeatedly urged
teachers to offer sound science instruction in their classes, regardless of
the religious and political pressures to do otherwise.
Earlier this year, NAS President Bruce Alberts warned that there is “a
growing threat to the teaching of science through the inclusion of
non-scientifically based ‘alternatives’ in science courses throughout the
country.” He called on members of the academy to resist these efforts
wherever they crop up.
One of the parents challenging ID in court in Pennsylvania summarized the
issue well. Said Bryan Rehm, “As a parent and a person of faith, I want to
share my religious beliefs with my own children. But as a high school
physics teacher, I believe it would be a great disservice and fallacy to
teach students that a perfectly valid faith constitutes scientific
knowledge.”
That’s a pretty good short sermon, and I’d like to add my hearty “Amen!”
The Rev. Barry W. Lynn is executive director of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State (http://www.au.org). He is an ordained
minister in the United Church of Christ and a longtime civil liberties
attorney. Readers may write to him at Americans United, 518 C Street NE,
Washington, D.C. 20002.
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Keep religious theory out of class |
09 Oct 2005 10:28:25 AM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> >:|> http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Keep religious theory out of class
:|> >:|> THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
:|> >:|> Sunday, October 2, 2005
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "Intelligent design" should not be taught in public school science classes
:|> >:|> because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America's commitment to
:|> >:|> diversity and jeopardizes our children's future.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Beware of generalizations like "because it violates the Constitution".
:|> >:|This bottom line is that people who attack our freedom of religious
:|> >:|expression often can't point to anything specific in the Constitution
:|> >:|to prove that the Constitution is being violated. They have to resort
:|> >:|to strawman generalizations to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
:|> >:|Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
:|> >:|from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
:|> >:|federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
:|> >:|constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
:|> >:|discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
:|> >:|and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
:|> >:|Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
:|>
:|> LOL, Jefferson believed the opposite. You just got exposed again for your
:|> dishonesty
:|
:|If you are talking about the line below which starts with, "No
:|religious reading," then please read in carefully. Jefferson is not
:|saying that religion cannot be taught in schools.
No troll I am talking about Jefferson's over all views about education and
religion
You know. all fhe the following you didn't bother to look over.
BTW, since you singled this one out let me do it first:
This was a reply to Barclay but will work here since you and him are clones
of each other basically:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem, he meant exactly what he said.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
[babclay said ]
So much for your claims that you follow proper historical methodology. It
is NOT proper historical methodology to completely ignore the primary
source material that is most immediately applicable to a particular issue
and focus entirely on less directly >applicable material.
Hehehehehehe Nice try but no cigar.
The two quotes above are PRIMARY SOURCE
This quote
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
which is also pron]mary source requires a certain understanding of the
period (known today as the history of the period)
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or
denomination. "
There were approx 20 religions, sects, denomination etc at that time.
perhaps that many, perhaps not that many in Virginia. However, it might be
beyond your comprehension today, but those religions, sects, denominations
did not get along. People were put in jail deprived of their civil rights,
banned etc for being a member of the "wrong" religion, sect or
denomination.
THERE COULD HAVE BEEN NO RELIGIOUS READING, INSTRUCTION
OR EXERCISE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PRESCRIBED OR PRACTICED
THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INCONSISTENT WITH SOME RELIGION, SECT OR
DENOMINATION THAT EXISTED AT THAT TIME. Thus under his Elementary
School Act, 1817. there could have been "No religious reading, instruction
or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced. . . " in any elementary
school.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
*****************************************************************
[barclay said]
:|Keep in mind that in between Jefferson's 1778 proposal and his 1817
:|proposal, almost forty years had passed. He was in his 30's when he wrote
:|the former proposal, and in his 70's at the time of the second. People's
:|thinking can change during that much time, both in their principles and,
:|probably more importantly in Jefferson's case here, in their willingness to
:|compromise in order to get at least some of what they want. Historians and
:|would-be historians have to allow for that possibility.
Ahem, 1781-82
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1817
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817.
*************************************************
Both are saying the same thing.
**********************************************************************
now all the rest you didn't feel like addressing:
Religion Intermeddling in Government
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical
affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or
conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving
their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and
giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would
rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the
county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were
the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and
with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative
and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:419
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any
religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:425
******************************************************************************
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Jefferson founded his unique vision of education at the University of
Virginia, then one of the first universities in the world to completely
separate higher learning from religious doctrine.
*********************************************************
EDUCATION - HISTORY-U.S.
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
40. Publicly Supported Education
Jefferson developed an elaborate plan for making education
available to every citizen, and for providing a complete education through
university for talented youths who were unable to afford it. He considered
his most important accomplishment, after Author of the Declaration of
Independence and the Statute for Religious Freedom, to have been the
father of the University of Virginia.
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm
*******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and Education, By Son H. Mai
http://clioseye.sfasu.edu/jefferson/education.htm
******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and the Education of a Citizen. Edited By James Gilreath.
Library of Congress, (1999)
********************************************************
JEFFERSON ON EDUCATION AND RELIGION:
A summation of Jefferson's views on education and religion by Leonard W.
Levy can be found at the following:
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by his
service as the first president of the Washington D. C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
The above claim by David Barton is false as shown in the article below
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
***********************************************************
also see the following:
Historical Data Against "Vouchers"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/vouchist.htm
:|> >:|"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
:|> >:|natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
:|> >:|government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
:|> >:|to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
:|> >:|--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
:|>
BTW, the above isn't properly cited.
University of Virginia was charted in 1819, thus if you are trying to pass
off the above letter as how he had set up UVA, you are incorrect and
dishonest.
The entire letter can be read below
http://0-www.search.eb.com.library.uor.edu/eb/article-9116916?tocId=9116916
:|
:|> >:|The 14th Amendment requires that state laws that authorize religious
:|> >:|theme classes in the public schools make such classes optional.
:|>
Really? Do quote the 14th Amendment on this point
.
Religiious theme classes in public school
What might those classes be?
Religion In The Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Law
http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/04-1995/prayer.html
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: Keep religious theory out of class |
09 Oct 2005 02:22:05 PM |
|
|
wrote:
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|
:| wrote:
:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:| wrote:
:|> >:|> http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Keep religious theory out of class
:|> >:|> THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
:|> >:|> Sunday, October 2, 2005
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> "Intelligent design" should not be taught in public school science classes
:|> >:|> because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America's commitment to
:|> >:|> diversity and jeopardizes our children's future.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Beware of generalizations like "because it violates the Constitution".
:|> >:|This bottom line is that people who attack our freedom of religious
:|> >:|expression often can't point to anything specific in the Constitution
:|> >:|to prove that the Constitution is being violated. They have to resort
:|> >:|to strawman generalizations to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
:|> >:|Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
:|> >:|from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
:|> >:|federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
:|> >:|constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
:|> >:|discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
:|> >:|and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
:|> >:|Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
:|>
:|> LOL, Jefferson believed the opposite. You just got exposed again for your
:|> dishonesty
:|
:|If you are talking about the line below which starts with, "No
:|religious reading," then please read in carefully. Jefferson is not
:|saying that religion cannot be taught in schools.
No troll I am talking about Jefferson's over all views about education and
religion
You know. all fhe the following you didn't bother to look over.
BTW, since you singled this one out let me do it first:
This was a reply to Barclay but will work here since you and him are clones
of each other basically:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem, he meant exactly what he said.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
Jefferson is not saying that schools cannot teach religion.
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
Jefferson is not saying that schools cannot teach religion.
[babclay said ]
So much for your claims that you follow proper historical methodology. It
is NOT proper historical methodology to completely ignore the primary
source material that is most immediately applicable to a particular issue
and focus entirely on less directly >applicable material.
Hehehehehehe Nice try but no cigar.
The two quotes above are PRIMARY SOURCE
This quote
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
<snipped for brevity>
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Keep religious theory out of class |
10 Oct 2005 08:00:59 AM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> >:|> "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> >:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> >:|> >:|> http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
:|> >:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> >:|> Keep religious theory out of class
:|> >:|> >:|> THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
:|> >:|> >:|> Sunday, October 2, 2005
:|> >:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> >:|> "Intelligent design" should not be taught in public school science classes
:|> >:|> >:|> because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America's commitment to
:|> >:|> >:|> diversity and jeopardizes our children's future.
:|> >:|> >:|
:|> >:|> >:|Beware of generalizations like "because it violates the Constitution".
:|> >:|> >:|This bottom line is that people who attack our freedom of religious
:|> >:|> >:|expression often can't point to anything specific in the Constitution
:|> >:|> >:|to prove that the Constitution is being violated. They have to resort
:|> >:|> >:|to strawman generalizations to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
:|> >:|> >:|
:|> >:|> >:|The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
:|> >:|> >:|Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
:|> >:|> >:|from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
:|> >:|> >:|federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
:|> >:|> >:|constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
:|> >:|> >:|discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
:|> >:|> >:|and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
:|> >:|> >:|Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> LOL, Jefferson believed the opposite. You just got exposed again for your
:|> >:|> dishonesty
:|> >:|
:|> >:|If you are talking about the line below which starts with, "No
:|> >:|religious reading," then please read in carefully. Jefferson is not
:|> >:|saying that religion cannot be taught in schools.
:|>
:|>
:|> No troll I am talking about Jefferson's over all views about education and
:|> religion
:|>
:|> You know. all fhe the following you didn't bother to look over.
:|>
:|> BTW, since you singled this one out let me do it first:
:|>
:|> This was a reply to Barclay but will work here since you and him are clones
:|> of each other basically:
:|> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:|> Ahem, he meant exactly what he said.
:|>
:|> "No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
:|> practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
:|> any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
:|> School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
:|
:|Jefferson is not saying that schools cannot teach religion.
The evidence I provided shows you are a liar with your comment about
:|
:|>
:|> QUERY XIV
:|> The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
:|> Laws?
:|>
:|> To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
:|> [pp 236-237]
:|> [EMPHASIS ADDED]
:|> Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
:|> generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
:|> education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
:|> people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
:|> order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
:|> BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
:|> AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
:|> MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
:|> HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
:|> GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
:|> SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
:|> Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
:|> Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
:|
:|Jefferson is not saying that schools cannot teach religion.
The evidence I provided shows you are a liar with your comment about
:|
:|>
:|> [babclay said ]
:|> >So much for your claims that you follow proper historical methodology. It
:|> >is NOT proper historical methodology to completely ignore the primary
:|> >source material that is most immediately applicable to a particular issue
:|> >and focus entirely on less directly >applicable material.
:|>
:|> Hehehehehehe Nice try but no cigar.
:|>
:|> The two quotes above are PRIMARY SOURCE
:|> This quote
:|>
:|> "No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
:|
:|<snipped for brevity>
Let me restore the damming evidence you deleted troll
I'll even add something new to begin it:
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven
by his service as the first president of the Washington, D.C. public
schools, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
(The aove is false as you will see from the following URL)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|> >:|The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
:|> >:|Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
:|> >:|from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
:|> >:|federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
:|> >:|constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
:|> >:|discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
:|> >:|and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
:|> >:|Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
:|>
:|> LOL, Jefferson believed the opposite. You just got exposed again for your
:|> dishonesty
:|
:|If you are talking about the line below which starts with, "No
:|religious reading," then please read in carefully. Jefferson is not
:|saying that religion cannot be taught in schools.
No troll I am talking about Jefferson's over all views about education and
religion
You know. all fhe the following you didn't bother to look over.
BTW, since you singled this one out let me do it first:
This was a reply to Barclay but will work here since you and him are clones
of each other basically:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahem, he meant exactly what he said.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
[babclay said ]
So much for your claims that you follow proper historical methodology. It
is NOT proper historical methodology to completely ignore the primary
source material that is most immediately applicable to a particular issue
and focus entirely on less directly >applicable material.
Hehehehehehe Nice try but no cigar.
The two quotes above are PRIMARY SOURCE
This quote
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
which is also pron]mary source requires a certain understanding of the
period (known today as the history of the period)
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or
denomination. "
There were approx 20 religions, sects, denomination etc at that time.
perhaps that many, perhaps not that many in Virginia. However, it might be
beyond your comprehension today, but those religions, sects, denominations
did not get along. People were put in jail deprived of their civil rights,
banned etc for being a member of the "wrong" religion, sect or
denomination.
THERE COULD HAVE BEEN NO RELIGIOUS READING, INSTRUCTION
OR EXERCISE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PRESCRIBED OR PRACTICED
THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INCONSISTENT WITH SOME RELIGION, SECT OR
DENOMINATION THAT EXISTED AT THAT TIME. Thus under his Elementary
School Act, 1817. there could have been "No religious reading, instruction
or exercise, shall be prescribed or practiced. . . " in any elementary
school.
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817. ME 17:425
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia. The Life and
Selected Writings of Thomas Jefferson, edited by Adrienne Koch and William
Peden. Random House, New York, (1993) pp 243-246)
*****************************************************************
[barclay said]
:|Keep in mind that in between Jefferson's 1778 proposal and his 1817
:|proposal, almost forty years had passed. He was in his 30's when he wrote
:|the former proposal, and in his 70's at the time of the second. People's
:|thinking can change during that much time, both in their principles and,
:|probably more importantly in Jefferson's case here, in their willingness to
:|compromise in order to get at least some of what they want. Historians and
:|would-be historians have to allow for that possibility.
Ahem, 1781-82
QUERY XIV
The Administration of Justice and the Description of the
Laws?
To establish religious freedom on the broadest bottom.
[pp 236-237]
[EMPHASIS ADDED]
Another object of the revisal is to diffuse knowledge more
generally through the mass of the people. . . The first stage of this
education being the schools of the hundreds, wherein the great mass of the
people will receive their instruction, the principal foundations of future
order will be laid here. INSTEAD, THEREFORE, OF PUTTING THE
BIBLE AND TESTAMENT INTO THE HANDS OF THE CHILDREN AT
AN AGE WHEN THEIR JUDGMENTS ARE NOT SUFFICIENTLY
MATURED FOR RELIGIOUS INQUIRIES, THEIR MEMORIES MAY
HERE BE STORED WITH THE MOST USEFUL FACTS FROM
GRECIAN, ROMAN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN HISTORY. . .
SOURCE OF INFORMATION
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1817
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of
any religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary
School Act, 1817.
*************************************************
Both are saying the same thing.
**********************************************************************
now all the rest you didn't feel like addressing:
Religion Intermeddling in Government
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm
"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their
congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical
affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or
conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving
their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and
giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would
rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281
"Ministers of the Gospel are excluded [from serving as Visitors of the
county Elementary Schools] to avoid jealousy from the other sects, were
the public education committed to the ministers of a particular one; and
with more reason than in the case of their exclusion from the legislative
and executive functions." --Thomas Jefferson: Note to Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:419
"No religious reading, instruction or exercise, shall be prescribed or
practiced [in the elementary schools] inconsistent with the tenets of any
religious sect or denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Elementary School
Act, 1817. ME 17:425
******************************************************************************
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
Jefferson founded his unique vision of education at the University of
Virginia, then one of the first universities in the world to completely
separate higher learning from religious doctrine.
*********************************************************
EDUCATION - HISTORY-U.S.
Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government
40. Publicly Supported Education
Jefferson developed an elaborate plan for making education
available to every citizen, and for providing a complete education through
university for talented youths who were unable to afford it. He considered
his most important accomplishment, after Author of the Declaration of
Independence and the Statute for Religious Freedom, to have been the
father of the University of Virginia.
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1370.htm
*******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and Education, By Son H. Mai
http://clioseye.sfasu.edu/jefferson/education.htm
******************************************************
Thomas Jefferson and the Education of a Citizen. Edited By James Gilreath.
Library of Congress, (1999)
********************************************************
JEFFERSON ON EDUCATION AND RELIGION:
A summation of Jefferson's views on education and religion by Leonard W.
Levy can be found at the following:
Jefferson, Religion, and the Public Schools.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jeffschl.htm
Thomas Jefferson supported Bible reading in school; this is proven by his
service as the first president of the Washington D. C. public schools,
which used the Bible and Watt's Hymns as textbooks for reading.
The above claim by David Barton is false as shown in the article below
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg6.htm
***********************************************************
also see the following:
Historical Data Against "Vouchers"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/vouchist.htm
:|> >:|"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
:|> >:|natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
:|> >:|government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
:|> >:|to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
:|> >:|--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
:|>
BTW, the above isn't properly cited.
University of Virginia was charted in 1819, thus if you are trying to pass
off the above letter as how he had set up UVA, you are incorrect and
dishonest.
The entire letter can be read below
http://0-www.search.eb.com.library.uor.edu/eb/article-9116916?tocId=9116916
:|
:|> >:|The 14th Amendment requires that state laws that authorize religious
:|> >:|theme classes in the public schools make such classes optional.
:|>
Really? Do quote the 14th Amendment on this point
.
Religiious theme classes in public school
What might those classes be?
Religion In The Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Law
http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/04-1995/prayer.html
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: Keep religious theory out of class |
02 Oct 2005 05:19:28 PM |
|
|
wrote:
http://ydr.com/story/op-ed/87727/
Keep religious theory out of class
THE REV. BARRY W. LYNN
Sunday, October 2, 2005
"Intelligent design" should not be taught in public school science classes
because it violates the Constitution, undercuts America's commitment to
diversity and jeopardizes our children's future.
Beware of generalizations like "because it violates the Constitution".
This bottom line is that people who attack our freedom of religious
expression often can't point to anything specific in the Constitution
to prove that the Constitution is being violated. They have to resort
to strawman generalizations to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
The bottom line is that an examination of the 1st, 10th and 14th
Amendments will show you that the 14th Amendment prohibits the states
from using their power to legislate religion to abridge our personal
federal rights as US citizens. So the states do have the
constitutional power to authorize public schools to lead classroom
discussions on issues like the pros and cons of evolution, creationism
and irreducible complexity, for example. However, I disagree with
Jefferson that religion classes should be mandatory:
"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
The 14th Amendment requires that state laws that authorize religious
theme classes in the public schools make such classes optional.
As a lawsuit under way now in federal district court will show, intelligent
design - or ID - is a religious concept, not a scientific theory. ID
advocates say the universe is so complex that it must have been created by
a designer. Although they stop short of saying that the designer is God,
they offer no other plausible explanation.
Members of the Dover, Pa., school board were a little more candid about
their sectarian agenda when they voted last year to require schools to
<snipped for brevity>
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