| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Clover" |
| Date: |
17 Dec 2006 10:05:34 PM |
| Object: |
Keeping the faith... |
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before. It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god - the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in many
ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives me
strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that part of
me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm fuzzies any
time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the other warm fuzzy
ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 03:07:45 PM |
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It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess
in many
V:
Yes you are correct...
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge
of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a
life of fulfillment.
He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god.
An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a
church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a
prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape
into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war
eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."
V (male)
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| User: "ike milligan" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:51:11 AM |
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"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:ttebo2lp1br0j4pgf3sjba1rtasmr0ofpi@4ax.com...
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the
intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will
be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about
it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it.
Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all
your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing
that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad,
and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to
just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while
ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of
an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
And what happens when your world is shattered by treachery or just bad
events?
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god -
the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have
any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
The advantage of religion is that you can have it while losing faith, and
then you can use it to renew faith. Try a few religions and get back to us.
.
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 03:32:25 AM |
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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:51:11 GMT, "ike milligan" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:ttebo2lp1br0j4pgf3sjba1rtasmr0ofpi@4ax.com...
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the
intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will
be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about
it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it.
Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all
your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing
that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad,
and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to
just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while
ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of
an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
And what happens when your world is shattered by treachery or just bad
events?
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god -
the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have
any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
The advantage of religion is that you can have it while losing faith, and
then you can use it to renew faith. Try a few religions and get back to us.
Not gonna' work -this- time, grasshopper - I'm onto you now. ;-)
.
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| User: "ike milligan" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
20 Dec 2006 10:15:26 AM |
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"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:mt2co2to7u0htm3v98nv2bfsl09pa795sr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 02:51:11 GMT, "ike milligan"
<accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:ttebo2lp1br0j4pgf3sjba1rtasmr0ofpi@4ax.com...
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty
and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the
intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as
it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is
to
make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will
be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying
about
it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it.
Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending
all
your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment,
recognizing
that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or
bad,
and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to
just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while
ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind
of
an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to
before.
It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the
more
popular ideological arenas.
And what happens when your world is shattered by treachery or just bad
events?
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in
the
god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that
god -
the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have
any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
The advantage of religion is that you can have it while losing faith, and
then you can use it to renew faith. Try a few religions and get back to
us.
Not gonna' work -this- time, grasshopper - I'm onto you now. ;-)
Oh yeah? going to work what? You get paranoid all of a sudden?
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
17 Dec 2006 11:20:24 PM |
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"Uncle Clover" <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in message
news:ttebo2lp1br0j4pgf3sjba1rtasmr0ofpi@4ax.com...
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the
intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will
be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about
it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it.
Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all
your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing
that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad,
and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to
just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while
ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of
an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god -
the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have
any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in
many
ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives me
strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that
part of
me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm fuzzies
any
time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the other warm
fuzzy
ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Damn, you're an interesting deep-thinker (and a very intelligent dude),
'Uncle Clover'.
Greywolf
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| User: "BanderStern" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 04:01:33 AM |
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On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:05:34 -0500, Uncle Clover
<UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
It is when it comes to *blind* faith...
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:15:46 AM |
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Uncle Clover explained :
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I do like "Toddleresque word games". Nice phrase.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying
about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid
it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it
or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the
moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only temporary,
whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it, to be it for
but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what it was we were
just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an
odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the
more popular ideological arenas.
Perhaps you are describing your own self-confidence and your
determination to accept life as it happens? Your dependence on
yourself and acceptance that nature is indifferent to you?
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god - the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have any
of the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in many
ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives me
strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that part
of me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm fuzzies
any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the other warm
fuzzy ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
17 Dec 2006 10:53:00 PM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
I have the same attitude, but I don't call it faith, I call it having
accepting reality.
Jim
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
17 Dec 2006 11:21:15 PM |
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On 17 Dec 2006 14:53:00 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
I have the same attitude, but I don't call it faith, I call it having
accepting reality.
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion. Like a certainty that
one has some idea as to what's really going on in the universe and an acceptance
that we are very fragile, vulnerable creatures who can't control the rest of the
universe as much as we'd like. People who truly believe in any sort of divine
aspect to existence are often at peace with themselves because they feel that
they've found all the answers they need. That's what this is with me, too, it
seems. And like many of the religious, I can't help but to step back from time
to time and simply admire the awesome magnitude of it all.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:31:56 AM |
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After serious thinking Uncle Clover wrote :
On 17 Dec 2006 14:53:00 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense
worrying about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently
to avoid it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use
missing it or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's
being in the moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only
temporary, whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it,
to be it for but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what
it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
I have the same attitude, but I don't call it faith, I call it having
accepting reality.
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion.
Speaking only for myself, I accepted reality with all its beauty,
thorns and tragedies long before I became an actual theist - instead of
one in name only. I don't contemplate my belief either... it is there;
it is a small part of my life... but nothing more.
Like a certainty
that one has some idea as to what's really going on in the universe and an
acceptance that we are very fragile, vulnerable creatures who can't control
the rest of the universe as much as we'd like. People who truly believe in
any sort of divine aspect to existence are often at peace with themselves
because they feel that they've found all the answers they need.
Maybe not ALL the answers I need, but answers sufficient for me to be
at peace within - doubts and fears gone. Acceptance of reality set at
Max.
That's what
this is with me, too, it seems. And like many of the religious, I can't help
but to step back from time to time and simply admire the awesome magnitude of
it all.
As was pointed out to me when I once said something similar, one does
not need belief in a deity to admire the darting grace and sparkle of a
hummingbird; the gurgle, cough, and belch of a volcanic mini-geyser;
the tan grandeur of the desert freckled with ancient black volcanic
vents seen from a mountain top; the myriad complexities of the
interactions of people; the delightful diversities of food and clothing
and art presented by those people; this earth surrounded by a deep
blackness with pinpricks of possible life....
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
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| User: "Brian E. Clark" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
07 Jan 2007 12:25:36 AM |
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In article <80kbo2lccqqpign8m1bfohp97cb8a2ij72@4ax.com>,
Uncle Clover said...
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion.
I doubt that it is so.
As I see things, no sensible person (including a sensible
Christian) considers "The leaves fall in autumn" to be "the
same feeling of accepting reality" as "Mary was born
without sin and gave birth as a virgin to a God-man who
died and rose again."
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
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| User: "Merovingian" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 03:41:21 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
On 17 Dec 2006 14:53:00 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
I have the same attitude, but I don't call it faith, I call it having
accepting reality.
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion. Like a certainty that
one has some idea as to what's really going on in the universe and an acceptance
that we are very fragile, vulnerable creatures who can't control the rest of the
universe as much as we'd like. People who truly believe in any sort of divine
aspect to existence are often at peace with themselves because they feel that
they've found all the answers they need. That's what this is with me, too, it
seems. And like many of the religious, I can't help but to step back from time
to time and simply admire the awesome magnitude of it all.
Hahaha!... yeah they have found all the answers they need.
Unfortunately the test has a billion questions and they only have one
answer. "God works in mysterious ways"
Sorry Uncle clover the religious get a big fat "F".
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 12:07:45 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion. Like a certainty that
one has some idea as to what's really going on in the universe and an acceptance
that we are very fragile, vulnerable creatures who can't control the rest of the
universe as much as we'd like. People who truly believe in any sort of divine
aspect to existence are often at peace with themselves because they feel that
they've found all the answers they need. That's what this is with me, too, it
seems. And like many of the religious, I can't help but to step back from time
to time and simply admire the awesome magnitude of it all.
I guess I just have a problem with you equating your feeling of
understanding and contentment with the world as it is, to the same
feeling in someone who's living in some religious fantasy.
Accepting reality doesn't take faith....
Jim
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 01:52:37 AM |
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On 17 Dec 2006 16:07:45 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
That's just it, though - it's the same feeling of "accepting reality" that
religious people have when contemplating their religion. Like a certainty that
one has some idea as to what's really going on in the universe and an acceptance
that we are very fragile, vulnerable creatures who can't control the rest of the
universe as much as we'd like. People who truly believe in any sort of divine
aspect to existence are often at peace with themselves because they feel that
they've found all the answers they need. That's what this is with me, too, it
seems. And like many of the religious, I can't help but to step back from time
to time and simply admire the awesome magnitude of it all.
I guess I just have a problem with you equating your feeling of
understanding and contentment with the world as it is, to the same
feeling in someone who's living in some religious fantasy.
Accepting reality doesn't take faith....
Those who live in religious fantasy tend to feel the exact same way about those
who don't. I'm not sure what's so elusive about that concept, but it's a pretty
straight-forward observation. Many of them are exactly as certain of the truth
of their worldview as you or I are about ours (some of them perhaps even more
so). Kind of like one's sexuality - different things cause different desires in
different people, but the sexual urge is the sexual urge no matter where it
occurs. So I really don't see the distinction you're making. If it's just
because the religious use the word "faith" and you think it must therefore have
some sort of lexicological "cooties" or something, well that's just plain silly.
Aside from what inspires that emotion in any given person, what difference is
there between such contentment based on empirical observation or such based on
faith-based "discernment"?
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:59:58 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Those who live in religious fantasy tend to feel the exact same way about those
who don't. I'm not sure what's so elusive about that concept, but it's a pretty
straight-forward observation. Many of them are exactly as certain of the truth
of their worldview as you or I are about ours (some of them perhaps even more
so).
I think the difference is that I'm *not* certain of my worldview, I
just accept that this is how things seem to be. I don't claim any
divine or special knowledge...that is the domain of faith.
Aside from what inspires that emotion in any given person, what difference is
there between such contentment based on empirical observation or such based on
faith-based "discernment"?
probably none at all!
Jim
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 03:30:03 AM |
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On 17 Dec 2006 18:59:58 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
Those who live in religious fantasy tend to feel the exact same way about those
who don't. I'm not sure what's so elusive about that concept, but it's a pretty
straight-forward observation. Many of them are exactly as certain of the truth
of their worldview as you or I are about ours (some of them perhaps even more
so).
I think the difference is that I'm *not* certain of my worldview, I
just accept that this is how things seem to be. I don't claim any
divine or special knowledge...that is the domain of faith.
Actually, that's a pretty good point. As a whole, I'm not certain of my
worldview, either. Anyone who reads any significant number of my posts can see
that I have a lot of whacked, fluffy, "out-there" ideas - I'm committed to none
of them, I have faith in none of them.
The faith part comes in at a fundamental core - the certainty that at this
moment, no matter what the true underlying nature of reality may be, I appear to
exist and so does the world, and I don't apparently have any way to exist in any
other world but this one - at least not at the moment. I have faith that I have
done everything in my power to understand reality as it truly is rather than as
it has been taught to me, and that if there is any sort of benevolent, merciful,
omnipotent space pixie somewhere watching, I have faith that I'm not on her *****
list.
Those are the things of which I am absolutely certain - I've been as true to
myself as any human being can be. I also have faith that if I'm wrong and I
really _am_ on said space pixie's ***** list, then I didn't stand a chance to
begin with and I might as well enjoy what time I have here.
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 11:05:51 PM |
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Uncle Clover <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:992co2dc8ocptdqn5h13c4qnmu2n22ikda@4ax.com:
On 17 Dec 2006 18:59:58 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org>
wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
Those who live in religious fantasy tend to feel the exact same way
about those who don't. I'm not sure what's so elusive about that
concept, but it's a pretty straight-forward observation. Many of
them are exactly as certain of the truth of their worldview as you or
I are about ours (some of them perhaps even more so).
I think the difference is that I'm *not* certain of my worldview, I
just accept that this is how things seem to be. I don't claim any
divine or special knowledge...that is the domain of faith.
Actually, that's a pretty good point. As a whole, I'm not certain of my
worldview, either. Anyone who reads any significant number of my posts
can see that I have a lot of whacked, fluffy, "out-there" ideas - I'm
committed to none of them, I have faith in none of them.
You don't need certainty. Follow the verifiable evidence. That is the only
thing that has a good track record. You are getting confused by the
theistic equivocation on the meaning of the word faith.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 11:46:36 PM |
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On 19 Dec 2006 12:05:51 +1300, Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
<Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Uncle Clover <UncleClover@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:992co2dc8ocptdqn5h13c4qnmu2n22ikda@4ax.com:
On 17 Dec 2006 18:59:58 -0800, "J Forbes" <jforbnospam@selectric.org>
wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
Those who live in religious fantasy tend to feel the exact same way
about those who don't. I'm not sure what's so elusive about that
concept, but it's a pretty straight-forward observation. Many of
them are exactly as certain of the truth of their worldview as you or
I are about ours (some of them perhaps even more so).
I think the difference is that I'm *not* certain of my worldview, I
just accept that this is how things seem to be. I don't claim any
divine or special knowledge...that is the domain of faith.
Actually, that's a pretty good point. As a whole, I'm not certain of my
worldview, either. Anyone who reads any significant number of my posts
can see that I have a lot of whacked, fluffy, "out-there" ideas - I'm
committed to none of them, I have faith in none of them.
You don't need certainty. Follow the verifiable evidence. That is the only
thing that has a good track record. You are getting confused by the
theistic equivocation on the meaning of the word faith.
No, actually I'm not. You're just not understanding my point. But it's not
that important, it's not like you'll go to Hell for not seeing things my way.
;-)
.
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 03:04:51 PM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
No, I'm not about to go off on some tangent about how "even atheists
have faith because they believe the sun will rise" - that's just petty and
stupid. Toddleresque word games played by those who haven't the intellectual
integrity nor the psychological stamina for anything more meaningful.
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before. It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god - the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in many
ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives me
strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that part of
me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm fuzzies any
time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the other warm fuzzy
ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
I have been busy and not able to participate much here. Will hopefully
get some time in a few days. So I have not deserted my friends here.
All monotheist put their faith in a 'first witness' that claims to have
been in contact with God, Jesus, Allah, etc. And if that first witness
of God is a liar, then our faith evaporates. As everything we believe
is based on that first person.
I discuss this topic of faith with an ex rabbi towards the end of this
thread:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=51.0
V
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 12:03:51 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to make
the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be will be,
and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying about it any
more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once
what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your
time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing that
what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good or bad, and
that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a moment and then to just let
it go as we move on to what it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an odd
but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before. It's
an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the more
popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the god
they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god - the
faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't have any of
the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in many
ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives me
strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that part of
me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm fuzzies any
time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the other warm fuzzy
ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Mark.
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:40:53 AM |
|
|
Richo expressed precisely :
Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
I think many faithful do as I do ... enjoy faith quietly and privately.
It's those with the pride and boastfulness who are the loudmouths,
imo... and who, I suspect, don't enjoy their faith.
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Delightful!!!! I wonder if I'll ever be able to
see the names of some of the faithful (pun) posters to a.a without an
audio echo, "Look! I made pee pee"!
I'd nominate this for AQOTM - if I were an atheist! :')
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying
about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid
it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it
or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the
moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only temporary,
whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it, to be it for
but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what it was we were
just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an
odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the
more popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god
- the faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't
have any of the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in
many ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives
me strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that
part of me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm
fuzzies any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the
other warm fuzzy ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Or Richard Dawkins?
Sorry ... I just couldn't resist! >:| If I believed in Satan, I'd
claim the devil made me do it!
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 04:56:10 AM |
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Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo expressed precisely :
Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
I think many faithful do as I do ... enjoy faith quietly and privately.
It's those with the pride and boastfulness who are the loudmouths,
imo... and who, I suspect, don't enjoy their faith.
There have been some truly generous and open theists that have made
themselves known on alt atheism.We do need reminding of them from time
to tme.
Mostly we get Pastor Frank and Sound of trumpet and so on.
Yech!
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Delightful!!!! I wonder if I'll ever be able to
see the names of some of the faithful (pun) posters to a.a without an
audio echo, "Look! I made pee pee"!
It's nice to be appreciated!
8-)
I'd nominate this for AQOTM - if I were an atheist! :')
Damn! Fame elludes me once again!
8-(
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense worrying
about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently to avoid
it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use missing it
or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's being in the
moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only temporary,
whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it, to be it for
but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what it was we were
just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of an
odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to before.
It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in some of the
more popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that god
- the faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it doesn't
have any of the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in
many ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that gives
me strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's just that
part of me which - were I a much less logical person - would get the warm
fuzzies any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or any of the
other warm fuzzy ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Or Richard Dawkins?
Hey Watch it!
We could have a linching party formed in double quick time ya know.
(Truth be known - I like Dawkins talking about evolution much more than
him talking about religion - I agree with a lot of what he says of
course - but he is a bit too simplistic and over-reaching at times.)
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
I am glad you are still here.
8-)
Mark.
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 05:22:34 AM |
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Richo submitted this idea :
Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo expressed precisely :
Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
I think many faithful do as I do ... enjoy faith quietly and privately.
It's those with the pride and boastfulness who are the loudmouths,
imo... and who, I suspect, don't enjoy their faith.
There have been some truly generous and open theists that have made
themselves known on alt atheism.We do need reminding of them from time
to tme.
Mostly we get Pastor Frank and Sound of trumpet and so on.
Yech!
Hrmmm .... Faster Prank and Sound of the Strumpet?
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Delightful!!!! I wonder if I'll ever be able to
see the names of some of the faithful (pun) posters to a.a without an
audio echo, "Look! I made pee pee"!
It's nice to be appreciated!
8-)
I am going to bed shortly .. and it will be with a smile. Your Pee
Pee comment is priceless!
I'd nominate this for AQOTM - if I were an atheist! :')
Damn! Fame elludes me once again!
8-(
Well, I am not going to become an atheist just so I can nominate your
funny! lol
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense
worrying about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently
to avoid it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use
missing it or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's
being in the moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only
temporary, whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it,
to be it for but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what
it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of
an odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to
before. It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in
some of the more popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that
god - the faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it
doesn't have any of the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in
many ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that
gives me strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's
just that part of me which - were I a much less logical person - would get
the warm fuzzies any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or
any of the other warm fuzzy ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Or Richard Dawkins?
Hey Watch it!
We could have a linching party formed in double quick time ya know.
I've been threatened previously ... but it was decided it would take
too long to get the lynching party organized (despite the canard that
atheists are organized), then there's a stop for a few beers, then a
Pee Pee break, then a return to the bar/pub for the forgotten rope and
a few more beers, then the search for me (broken with more beer-and-pee
stops)..... and if any atheists did manage to find me, I STILL wouldn't
worry as beer influenced fingers couldn't tie a decent hangman's knot
anyway!
I'm not worried! :')
(Truth be known - I like Dawkins talking about evolution much more than
him talking about religion - I agree with a lot of what he says of
course - but he is a bit too simplistic and over-reaching at times.)
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
I am glad you are still here.
Thank you .... as am I.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "Merovingian" |
|
| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 09:23:35 AM |
|
|
Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo submitted this idea :
Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo expressed precisely :
Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
I think many faithful do as I do ... enjoy faith quietly and privately.
It's those with the pride and boastfulness who are the loudmouths,
imo... and who, I suspect, don't enjoy their faith.
There have been some truly generous and open theists that have made
themselves known on alt atheism.We do need reminding of them from time
to tme.
Mostly we get Pastor Frank and Sound of trumpet and so on.
Yech!
Hrmmm .... Faster Prank and Sound of the Strumpet?
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Delightful!!!! I wonder if I'll ever be able to
see the names of some of the faithful (pun) posters to a.a without an
audio echo, "Look! I made pee pee"!
It's nice to be appreciated!
8-)
I am going to bed shortly .. and it will be with a smile. Your Pee
Pee comment is priceless!
I'd nominate this for AQOTM - if I were an atheist! :')
Damn! Fame elludes me once again!
8-(
Well, I am not going to become an atheist just so I can nominate your
funny! lol
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as it
inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here is to
make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that whatever will be
will be, and once what will be has become what is, there's no sense
worrying about it any more or wondering what you could've done differently
to avoid it. Likewise once what is becomes what once was, there's no use
missing it or spending all your time wishing you had it back again. It's
being in the moment, recognizing that what we have in the present is only
temporary, whether it's good or bad, and that our task is just to feel it,
to be it for but a moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what
it was we were just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind of
an odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much attention to
before. It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find quite lacking in
some of the more popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in the
god they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please that
god - the faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only it
doesn't have any of the "drag" associated with far too many religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess in
many ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that
gives me strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess it's
just that part of me which - were I a much less logical person - would get
the warm fuzzies any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or Mohammed or
any of the other warm fuzzy ideologies to have emerged over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I have
no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Or Richard Dawkins?
Hey Watch it!
We could have a linching party formed in double quick time ya know.
I've been threatened previously ... but it was decided it would take
too long to get the lynching party organized (despite the canard that
atheists are organized), then there's a stop for a few beers, then a
Pee Pee break, then a return to the bar/pub for the forgotten rope and
a few more beers, then the search for me (broken with more beer-and-pee
stops)..... and if any atheists did manage to find me, I STILL wouldn't
worry as beer influenced fingers couldn't tie a decent hangman's knot
anyway!
I'm not worried! :')
(Truth be known - I like Dawkins talking about evolution much more than
him talking about religion - I agree with a lot of what he says of
course - but he is a bit too simplistic and over-reaching at times.)
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
I am glad you are still here.
Thank you .... as am I.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
Lynching party? I thought only Roman Catholics participated in witch
hunts?
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Keeping the faith... |
18 Dec 2006 02:00:28 PM |
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Merovingian wrote after much deliberation:
Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo submitted this idea :
Pangur Ban wrote:
Richo expressed precisely :
Uncle Clover wrote:
Faith is a peculiar thing, and one which - I've come to learn - isn't
particularly theistic in nature.
Oh sure! Everyone has it to some extent.
It's a mind function - just as taking a ***** is a body function.
Its a part of being Human.
The differnce between rational skeptics and the Faithful. - is that
when I find I have taken something on faith I am a little ashamed and
it gives me a reason to re-examine my beliefs a little more closely -
and with the faithfull its a cause of pride and boastfullness.
I think many faithful do as I do ... enjoy faith quietly and privately.
It's those with the pride and boastfulness who are the loudmouths,
imo... and who, I suspect, don't enjoy their faith.
There have been some truly generous and open theists that have made
themselves known on alt atheism.We do need reminding of them from time
to tme.
Mostly we get Pastor Frank and Sound of trumpet and so on.
Yech!
Hrmmm .... Faster Prank and Sound of the Strumpet?
Being proud and boastfull of your faith is like saying:
"Look! I made Pee Pee!"
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Delightful!!!! I wonder if I'll ever be able to
see the names of some of the faithful (pun) posters to a.a without an
audio echo, "Look! I made pee pee"!
It's nice to be appreciated!
8-)
I am going to bed shortly .. and it will be with a smile. Your Pee
Pee comment is priceless!
I'd nominate this for AQOTM - if I were an atheist! :')
Damn! Fame elludes me once again!
8-(
Well, I am not going to become an atheist just so I can nominate your
funny! lol
I realized today that I have "faith", and oddly enough, I can't tell
why, or what in. I guess it's just a belief that all will turn out as
it inevitably must in the end, and that all we can do while we're here
is to make the best of it that we can. It's the knowledge that
whatever will be will be, and once what will be has become what is,
there's no sense worrying about it any more or wondering what you
could've done differently to avoid it. Likewise once what is becomes
what once was, there's no use missing it or spending all your time
wishing you had it back again. It's being in the moment, recognizing
that what we have in the present is only temporary, whether it's good
or bad, and that our task is just to feel it, to be it for but a
moment and then to just let it go as we move on to what it was we were
just becoming a short while ago.
Living, being, becoming, growing and fading, listening to echoes of
the
past while glimpsing shadows of the future - it's all life. It's kind
of an odd but steady foundation that I never really paid much
attention to before. It's an odd sort of "integrity" which I find
quite lacking in some of the more popular ideological arenas.
I might never have thought to call this "faith" before, but thinking
back on those years when I had been religious, when I had believed in
the god they told me about and had been sincere in my desire to please
that god - the faith I have today is rather similar in some ways, only
it doesn't have any of the "drag" associated with far too many
religions.
It's rather odd, too - one might think that the natural thing to do
if
one doesn't believe in a god is to have faith in one's self. I guess
in
many ways, I do, but that's not what gives me comfort. The faith that
gives me strength, even as an atheist I cannot define it. I guess
it's
just that part of me which - were I a much less logical person - would
get the warm fuzzies any time someone mentioned Jesus or Mary or
Mohammed or any of the other warm fuzzy ideologies to have emerged
over the millenia.
The ideologies have faded away, but the faith still remains - and I
have no explanation for it.
Interesting thoughts - its an important thing to try and see your own
limitations and take them into account - stay open and receptive -
that's about the best we can try and do.
When you meet someone who is CERTAIN of the correctness of their
position - then you know you are in the presence of insanity - be they
a follower of Christ, L. Ron Hubbard or Ayn Rand.
Or Richard Dawkins?
Hey Watch it!
We could have a linching party formed in double quick time ya know.
I've been threatened previously ... but it was decided it would take
too long to get the lynching party organized (despite the canard that
atheists are organized), then there's a stop for a few beers, then a
Pee Pee break, then a return to the bar/pub for the forgotten rope and
a few more beers, then the search for me (broken with more beer-and-pee
stops)..... and if any atheists did manage to find me, I STILL wouldn't
worry as beer influenced fingers couldn't tie a decent hangman's knot
anyway!
I'm not worried! :')
(Truth be known - I like Dawkins talking about evolution much more than
him talking about religion - I agree with a lot of what he says of
course - but he is a bit too simplistic and over-reaching at times.)
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
I am glad you are still here.
Thank you .... as am I.
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
Lynching party? I thought only Roman Catholics participated in witch
hunts?
Pshaw. Any group can start a "witch hunt" if sufficiently angered.
Wonder if Wiccans would call their "witch-hunt" a "witch-hunt"? lol
--
Pangur Ban - nonchristian theist
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