Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:

Any Latin scholars around here?

Genesis 22:14 (King James Version)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it
is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."
Genesis 22:14 (Latin Vulgate)
"appellavitque nomen loci illius Dominus videt unde usque
hodie dicitur in monte Dominus videbit"
Genesis 22:14 (MSG Version)
"Abraham named that place GOD-Yireh (GOD-Sees-to-It). That's
where we get the saying, "On the mountain of GOD, he sees to it."

Now for the interesting stuff...
There is no modern city name.

The Bible (at least in this case) is NOT talking about the Earth. It's
talking about Heaven. The stars.

The Bible is allegorical. Taking it literally ruins it.
Abraham was not a real man. Abraham is a character, but I don't know
right off hand what he represents.
Read Gen 22:13. Picture a character doing what it says. The Ram is the
constellation of Aries. Picture Abraham looking up into Heaven and seeing
the Ram with it's "horns" caught in a cluster of starts (thicket).

Isn't the Bible fun?

Check out this link:
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm
The Bible is filled with tons of stories related to the Sun,
astronomy, Geometry, and esoteric teachings. The story of "Jonah and
the Whale" should tip you off that the stories are not real. There is
no way to put two of every kind of animal on an ark.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:13:32 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
wrote:

Any Latin scholars around here?

After reading a claim by Boobie Winn about the Gutenberg Bible, I
looked up a verse which contains the word "Jehovah" in the KJV, and
found the following:

Genesis 22:14 (King James Version)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it
is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

Genesis 22:14 (Latin Vulgate)
"appellavitque nomen loci illius Dominus videt unde usque
hodie dicitur in monte Dominus videbit"

Genesis 22:14 (MSG Version)
"Abraham named that place GOD-Yireh (GOD-Sees-to-It). That's
where we get the saying, "On the mountain of GOD, he sees to it."

What's that first word in the Latin version? Does appellavitque
actually mean Abraham?

And what is the actual name of the place being talked about
in the verse, as far as some modern city name?

Not a Latin scholar, but did my time in medicine.

Appellavitque does not mean Abraham. Apello- means to call, name, or
summon. I was not able to determine the suffix -vitque, but I've seen
it with other words. Therefore, the applelavitque seems to be the
translation of "called" or something to that effect and you'll
probably figure out that nomen means "name". Thus, appellavitque
nomen means "called the name" or something similar.

http://www.math.ubc.ca/people/faculty/cass/frivs/latin/latin-dict-full.html
"appello : to call, name, summon."

Preceding verses do speak directly of Abraham. Therefore, they used
context to add Abraham to the verse 14. Try using the Blue Letter
Bible @ www.blueletterbible.org to see multiple versions of the Bible
and other good information.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Gen/22/14.html
Gen 22:14 — And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as
it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Phrase of Scripture Correlating Passages

called Gen 16:13,14; Gen 28:19; Gen 32:30; Exd 17:15; Jdg
6:24; 1Sa 7:12; Eze 48:35
Jehovah-jireh i.e., The LORD will see, or provide. Gen
22:8,13; Exd 17:15
In Deu 32:36; Psa 22:4,5; Dan 3:17-25; Mic 4:10; Jhn
1:14; 2Cr 1:8-10; 1Ti 3:16
it shall be seen """In the mount of the LORD it shall
be provided."" The meaning is, that God, in the greatest difficulties,
when all human assistance is vain, will make a suitable provision for
the deliverance of those who trust in Him."

Previous verse:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Gen/22/13.html
Gen 22:13 — And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold
behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went
and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead
of his son. Phrase of Scripture Correlating Passages


behind Gen 22:8; Psa 40:6-8; Psa 89:19,20; Isa 30:21; 1Cr 10:13;
2Cr 1:9,10
in the 1Cr 5:7,8; 1Pe 1:19,20



Now for the interesting stuff...

There is no modern city name. The Bible (at least in this case) is
NOT talking about the Earth. It's talking about Heaven. The stars.

The Bible is allegorical. Taking it literally ruins it.
Abraham was not a real man. Abraham is a character, but I don't know
right off hand what he represents. Read Gen 22:13. Picture a
character doing what it says. The Ram is the constellation of Aries.
Picture Abraham looking up into Heaven and seeing the Ram with it's
"horns" caught in a cluster of starts (thicket).

Isn't the Bible fun?

Check out this link:
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm

The Bible is filled with tons of stories related to the Sun,
astronomy, Geometry, and esoteric teachings. The story of "Jonah and
the Whale" should tip you off that the stories are not real. There is
no way to put two of every kind of animal on an ark.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 02:13:32 GMT, Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net>
wrote:

Any Latin scholars around here?

After reading a claim by Boobie Winn about the Gutenberg Bible, I
looked up a verse which contains the word "Jehovah" in the KJV, and
found the following:

Genesis 22:14 (King James Version)
"And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it
is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

Genesis 22:14 (Latin Vulgate)
"appellavitque nomen loci illius Dominus videt unde usque
hodie dicitur in monte Dominus videbit"

Genesis 22:14 (MSG Version)
"Abraham named that place GOD-Yireh (GOD-Sees-to-It). That's
where we get the saying, "On the mountain of GOD, he sees to it."

What's that first word in the Latin version? Does appellavitque
actually mean Abraham?

No. The suffix -que means "and".

"Appellare" is a first conjugation verb meaning "to name, call,
accuse, or appeal" according to context.

Latin (and modern Italian to a lesser extent) modifies the verbs
rather than using a separate pronoun, eg "I name" would be "appello".

So "appellavit" (or "appellabit", the "b" often substituted for the
"v") means "he called" or "he named" ("he appealed" doesn't fit the
context).

But it's been 40 years since I last did Latin at grammar school.

Literally:

:appellavitque nomen loci illius Dominus
and he named the name of the place that the Master
[we would say "that place"]


:videt unde usque hodie dicitur
(he, the Master) sees whence up to today it is said

:in monte Dominus videbit
in,into by, with, from (the) mountain (the) Master (he) saw


Confusing? Especially when it is a translation of a translation. With
no surrounding context to take into account.

Everything after "appellavitque" until "unde" is the object of "and he
named". The literal name of that place is "the Master sees".

With no specific object being seen, or perhaps an implied one from the
previous context.

"Dominus" is the subject of both "videt" and "videbit" It's not the
object or the owner of a subject or object.

It's more "the mountain that the Master saw [from]".

In that light "dicitur" probably translates better as "it is called"
than "it is said".

My more accurate translation:

And he said the name of that place that place "the Master sees". Even
today it is called the "the mountain the Master saw from".

Just explaining what the name means and that they still use that name.

"Sees to it" is definitely wrong and replaces what was written in the
Latin with an English idiom that means something else completely. The
MSG translation is extremely sloppy with the sentence.

Any translation has to draw an intelligent conclusion as to what is
meant.

Especially when it is a single sentence that is a translation from a
pre-Latin language into Latin and then English.

This is sloppier than the classical Latin I learned at grammar school,
between 1958 and 1964.

And it illustrates just how unjustified biblical literalists are.

And what is the actual name of the place being talked about
in the verse, as far as some modern city name?

No idea.