| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dan Harbor" |
| Date: |
13 Dec 2003 03:24:24 PM |
| Object: |
Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
Lot of folk regard Christians as dickheads. Especially when they
thing of all the things they learned in public school in the last
century. You know,
"Believe two impossibilities before gobbling down breakfast." Say,
for instance, Jesus was born of a Virgin or Mary and Joseph grabbed
Jesus and his swaddling clothes and ran off into Egypt. Possible but
not likely.
Now, taken literally, the whole New Testament including its piece de
resistance, the Resurrection is junked in most modern minds as pious
wishful thinking. Rightly so.
But now you can follow in the footsteps of Bishop Spong and, say, Tom
Harpur
actually junk the literalist crap foisted on you by dickheads (maybe
power hungry jerks oblivious to modern thinking) and believe the real
message of the Bible which then, understood parabolically, takes on
new truth and good guidance at every hand.
So I give you Spong's latest comments on Christmas Pagents.
There is no reputable New Testament scholar in the world today, either
Catholic or protestant, who regards the birth stories of Matthew and
Luke as history. I say reputable because there are a few evangelical
fundamentalists and pre-Vatican II Roman Catholics who have not yet
caught up with the last 150 years of biblical scholarship.
Does that mean, however, that these beautiful stories have no eternal
value? Of course not! They are great narratives and our lives would be
considerably poorer without those shepherds and wise men, the manger
and swaddling clothes, the star in the East and the angelic chorus.
These stories are filled with interpretative meaning but they were
never written to be understood literally. The star to announce the
birth of a special life had a long history in Jewish piety. The story
of the Wise Men was based on Isaiah 60. The story of Joseph, the
earthly father of Jesus is based on the story of Joseph the patriarch
from Genesis 37:50. The swaddling clothes came out of the apocryphal
book of the Wisdom of Solomon. The manger is from Isaiah 1:3. The
story of Zechariah and Elizabeth having John the Baptist in their old
age is a retelling of the Abraham and Sarah story from Genesis 15 to
34. We could go on and on. I developed all of these connections in a
book entitled, "Born of a Woman: A Bishop Rethinks the Virgin Birth
and the Place of Women in a Male-Dominated Church."
Does that mean when we learn that these stories are interpretative
legends we discard them? I certainly do not. Our home has several
crèche scenes on display every holiday season and we normally attend
at least one Christmas pageant a year.
The meaning of these stories is that in the adult Jesus, people
believed that they had experienced the presence of the Holy God. That
moment was so transforming that when they wrote it they said things
like "the heavens rejoiced at his birth." Why cannot those themes be
acted out in pageantry without telling the children that they are
literally so. The great myth of Santa Claus/Kris Kringle does not
disappear when children learn that no literal elf lives at the literal
North Pole. The power of the Christ is likewise not diminished when
the miraculous story of his birth is recognized as an interpretative
myth.
So enjoy the holidays and welcome the birth of the one many of us
acknowledge as our gateway into all that God means.
-- John Shelby Spong
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
13 Dec 2003 06:05:28 PM |
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And so upon Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0800 didst Dan Harbor speak thusly:
Does that mean, however, that these beautiful stories have no eternal
value?
Who says they had any to begin with?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
http://nullusfides.blogspot.com/
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| User: "Thomas Curmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
13 Dec 2003 08:53:25 PM |
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Dan Harbor wrote:
Lot of folk regard Christians as dickheads. Especially when they
thing of all the things they learned in public school in the last
century. You know,
"Believe two impossibilities before gobbling down breakfast." Say,
for instance, Jesus was born of a Virgin or Mary and Joseph grabbed
Jesus and his swaddling clothes and ran off into Egypt. Possible but
not likely.
Now, taken literally, the whole New Testament including its piece de
resistance, the Resurrection is junked in most modern minds as pious
wishful thinking. Rightly so.
But now you can follow in the footsteps of Bishop Spong and, say, Tom
Harpur
actually junk the literalist crap foisted on you by dickheads (maybe
power hungry jerks oblivious to modern thinking) and believe the real
message of the Bible which then, understood parabolically, takes on
new truth and good guidance at every hand.
So I give you Spong's latest comments on Christmas Pagents.
There is no reputable New Testament scholar in the world today, either
Catholic or protestant, who regards the birth stories of Matthew and
Luke as history. I say reputable because there are a few evangelical
fundamentalists and pre-Vatican II Roman Catholics who have not yet
caught up with the last 150 years of biblical scholarship.
Does that mean, however, that these beautiful stories have no eternal
value? Of course not! They are great narratives and our lives would be
considerably poorer without those shepherds and wise men, the manger
and swaddling clothes, the star in the East and the angelic chorus.
These stories are filled with interpretative meaning but they were
never written to be understood literally. The star to announce the
birth of a special life had a long history in Jewish piety. The story
of the Wise Men was based on Isaiah 60. The story of Joseph, the
earthly father of Jesus is based on the story of Joseph the patriarch
from Genesis 37:50. The swaddling clothes came out of the apocryphal
book of the Wisdom of Solomon. The manger is from Isaiah 1:3. The
story of Zechariah and Elizabeth having John the Baptist in their old
age is a retelling of the Abraham and Sarah story from Genesis 15 to
34. We could go on and on. I developed all of these connections in a
book entitled, "Born of a Woman: A Bishop Rethinks the Virgin Birth
and the Place of Women in a Male-Dominated Church."
Does that mean when we learn that these stories are interpretative
legends we discard them? I certainly do not. Our home has several
crèche scenes on display every holiday season and we normally attend
at least one Christmas pageant a year.
The meaning of these stories is that in the adult Jesus, people
believed that they had experienced the presence of the Holy God. That
moment was so transforming that when they wrote it they said things
like "the heavens rejoiced at his birth." Why cannot those themes be
acted out in pageantry without telling the children that they are
literally so. The great myth of Santa Claus/Kris Kringle does not
disappear when children learn that no literal elf lives at the literal
North Pole. The power of the Christ is likewise not diminished when
the miraculous story of his birth is recognized as an interpretative
myth.
So enjoy the holidays and welcome the birth of the one many of us
acknowledge as our gateway into all that God means.
I think christian mythology, without the supernatural beliefs, should
have some cultural value, some lessons for people. But religion seldom
benefits it's believers or non-believers as it could.
This person has taken a first step by recognizing that the bible isn't
literal, but he has a long way to go.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
14 Dec 2003 02:43:52 AM |
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In article <e3eccc04.0312131324.329e7ccc@posting.google.com>,
(Dan Harbor) wrote:
Does that mean, however, that these beautiful stories have no eternal
value?
They are myths and should be studies as such. Actually, I find the
Greek and Egyptian myths much more entertaining.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
- Question authority. Now more than ever. -
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
14 Dec 2003 09:50:48 PM |
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On 13 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0800, (Dan Harbor)
wrote:
Lot of folk regard Christians as dickheads.
They have probably tried to talk inteligently to them.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
13 Dec 2003 05:06:50 PM |
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On 13 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0800, (Dan Harbor)
wrote:
Lot of folk regard Christians as dickheads. Especially when they
thing of all the things they learned in public school in the last
century. You know,
:
<snip>
:
North Pole. The power of the Christ is likewise not diminished when
the miraculous story of his birth is recognized as an interpretative
myth.
So enjoy the holidays and welcome the birth of the one many of us
acknowledge as our gateway into all that God means.
-- John Shelby Spong
Your proposal is predicated on the existance of a single god.
As I do not think that concept is a tenable one, why should I embrace
so-called christians?
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| User: "Levy Oates" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
14 Dec 2003 01:09:54 AM |
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On 13 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0800, (Dan Harbor) wrote:
These stories are filled with interpretative meaning but they were
never written to be understood literally.
I think they were. I, as a post Vatican II catholic was certainly brought up to
believe that they were. Most depictions of Christ on stage, film and in
literature portray them as if they were. Scholars may have concluded otherwise,
but they've been very quiet about saying so from their pulpits or to the kids in
school.
The meaning of these stories is that in the adult Jesus, people
believed that they had experienced the presence of the Holy God.
So having figured out that the stories are bollocks how can we still get them to
retrospectively support the god myth? I know - rather than doing the obvious
thing and discarding them as the frauds that they were, we'll "interpret" them.
---------
Archdeacom Levy Oates
On behalf of the Prophet Eric Peabody (pbuh)
Basingstoke, England
http://www.angelfire.com/alt/bumblism/
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| User: "Bill, The Avender" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
14 Dec 2003 01:50:39 AM |
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In alt.atheism on Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:09:54 +0000, Levy Oates
<levy_oates@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 13 Dec 2003 13:24:24 -0800, (Dan Harbor) wrote:
These stories are filled with interpretative meaning but they were
never written to be understood literally.
By all accounts, that would certainly have been news to the people who
wrote them.
I think they were. I, as a post Vatican II catholic was certainly brought up to
believe that they were. Most depictions of Christ on stage, film and in
literature portray them as if they were. Scholars may have concluded otherwise,
but they've been very quiet about saying so from their pulpits or to the kids in
school.
Not so sure how much you can blame them. Fundamentalists routinely
flaunt their willingness to return to the Dark Ages - a time when they
could freely execute anyone they didn't like. Any time anyone poses a
serious challenge to the Christian establishment (or any other major
religion for that matter), one barely has a chance to take another
breath before the death threats start pouring in. And sometimes,
death threats are carried out. Sure, any interested adults can debate
this issue among themselves, but risk exposing _their_ children to
reality? You might just as well _ask_ them to kill you.
--
L8r,
Bill
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
The quest is never fruitless -
even when all you walk away with
are memories of the search.
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
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| User: "Martin Crisp" |
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| Title: Re: Learn How to embrace Christians and their Ideas. |
13 Dec 2003 04:12:22 PM |
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 8:24:24 +1100, Dan Harbor wrote
(in message <e3eccc04.0312131324.329e7ccc@posting.google.com>):
Lot of folk regard Christians as dickheads. Especially when
they thing of all the things they learned in public school in
the last century. You know, "Believe two impossibilities
before gobbling down breakfast." Say, for instance, Jesus was
born of a Virgin or Mary and Joseph grabbed Jesus and his
swaddling clothes and ran off into Egypt. Possible but not
likely.
Now, taken literally, the whole New Testament including its
piece de resistance, the Resurrection is junked in most modern
minds as pious wishful thinking. Rightly so.
But now you can follow in the footsteps of Bishop Spong and,
say, Tom Harpur actually junk the literalist crap foisted on
you by dickheads (maybe power hungry jerks oblivious to modern
thinking) and believe the real message of the Bible which then,
understood parabolically, takes on new truth and good guidance
at every hand.
The 'real' message? How do you establish that this, rather than,
say, "slavery is a good thing as it mimics your relationship with
God®," is the 'real' messaage of the Bible?
What /facts/ underlie this 'real' meaning?
So I give you Spong's latest comments on Christmas Pagents.
There is no reputable New Testament scholar in the world today,
either Catholic or protestant,
[snip rest of quote that got silly after a promising start]
Have Fun
Martin
--
aa #1792
Almost always SMASHed
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