"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:pmil21hplgbag4f7hmhbridj43qhddt49o@4ax.com...

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others and should be a lesson,
as proven throughout history, that moral decline precedes the loss of
liberty. So to deprive kids in public school the knowledge of
intelligent design deprives them of the morality which is the
beginning of the end of America itself. Is it a conspiracy?
----------------------------------------------

Rome didn't fall until after it had converted to Christianity! Which I
suppose supports the whole "moral decline" thing! Never has morality been
so brutally savaged than since the rise of the Hippy-On-A-Stick religion!

As Cicero was dead (43 BCE) before Empire's even being around (27 BCE)
he was mighty prescient :->
Tacitus died in 117 CE, Appian circa 165 and Cassius Dio circa 235 - so
they were pretty good at seeing the future too... all the way to a
conservative 476 CE (if one conservatively ignores the Eastern empire.

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others and should be a

lesson,

as proven throughout history, that moral decline precedes the loss of
liberty. So to deprive kids in public school the knowledge of
intelligent design deprives them of the morality which is the
beginning of the end of America itself. Is it a conspiracy?
----------------------------------------------

Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/60744/

And as long as we're indulging in post hoc explanations, let's also
remember that this moral decline coincided with the spread of
Christianity in the Roman Empire. ;)

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others and should be a lesson,
as proven throughout history, that moral decline precedes the loss of
liberty. So to deprive kids in public school the knowledge of
intelligent design deprives them of the morality which is the
beginning of the end of America itself. Is it a conspiracy?
----------------------------------------------

Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/60744/

"Intelligent Design is a synonym for morality"
I get the impression rather strongly that this person heard all about
I.D. from the pulpit, rather than from any of the available books. I
doubt if he is even aware of the space alien concept of the I.Der. and
if he was, obviously discounts it. I suppose that, if nothing else, this
letter clearly shows that at the grass roots level I.D. is straight
religious fundamentalism.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 04:25:02 -0500, Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others and should be a lesson,
as proven throughout history, that moral decline precedes the loss of
liberty.

Not exactly.

The fall Of Rome was economic.

So to deprive kids in public school the knowledge of
intelligent design deprives them of the morality which is the
beginning of the end of America itself. Is it a conspiracy?

The problem with that, is that ID, is an attempt to make superstition, look
like science.

Instead of calling it "Creationism", which is religion, and may not be taught
in schools, they call it the "THEORY of Intelligent Design", which *sounds*
like science, which IS allowed in schools; Encouraged even.

However, when pressed to explain the "theory" of ID, and to demonstrate the
evidence which supports the "theory" , all we get is puerile arguments from
incredulity, and appeals to ignorance.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 04:25:02 -0500, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others and should be a lesson,
as proven throughout history, that moral decline precedes the loss of
liberty.

Not exactly.

The fall Of Rome was economic.

Rome had an expansionist economy.
The trouble with that sort of economy, is that in order to maintain it, you have
to keep expanding, but your ability to expand, is limited by your ability to
defend your empire, and get re-enforcements from home, and "home's" ability to
supply your needs.

Assume an even, that is omni directional, expansion.

At fifty miles from the centre, the border is 314. app miles long.

Double that distance and the border is also doubled 628.app


A thousand miles, and you have got damn near 6300 miles of border to protect.

But not only do you have twenty times the border to defend, but it takes twenty
times as long to reach, and so, presumably, costs twenty times as much to
transport supplies.


This situation soon becomes untenable, it cost more to defend your outposts,
than your outposts are sending home.

AND, you have got no army at home, to protect you from disgruntled citizens who
have not been paid for their produce.

So you start a slow withdrawal, but many of your soldiers, and traders stay
behind, too many, Rome is just the name of somewhere far away, to them.

This gives you another problem. You are leaving well trained, and presumably
well armed, men at your rear, who no longer have any reason to be loyal to you.

This pushes up the cost of defending that border, so you withdraw a bit faster,
but it is a slippery slope, which is not helped when those countries renew old,
pre Roman invasion, alliances.

Add internal power struggles, and the cost of buying the public approval, "Bread
and Circuses" and ignorance, the belief that your god/s will protect you, and
your empire is doomed.

Over simplified, I know, but that is the basic story of the fall.

Morality had nothing to do with it.

So to deprive kids in public school the knowledge of
intelligent design deprives them of the morality which is the
beginning of the end of America itself. Is it a conspiracy?

The problem with that, is that ID, is an attempt to make superstition, look like
science.

Instead of calling it "Creationism", which is religion, and may not be taught in
schools, they call it the "THEORY of Intelligent Design", which *sounds* like
science, which IS allowed in schools; Encouraged even.

However, when pressed to explain the "theory" of ID, and to demonstrate the
evidence which supports the "theory" , all we get is puerile arguments from
incredulity, and appeals to ignorance.

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005, Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:

From the article:
--------------------------------------------
The prime reason Rome fell was moral decline as so well chronicled by
Apian, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, Cicero and others

It's kind of pointless to quibble with persons not present, but he
needs to define what he means by "Rome fell". Was it the increase in
Plebian power at the expense of the Patricians? The civil wars that
ended the Republic? The establishment of the Principate? The demise
of the Julio-Claudian dynasty? The partition of the empire into
eastern and western halves? The move of the capital to
Constantinople? The economic collapse that set the stage for the
feudalism? The adoption of Christianity as the state religion? The
political displacement of the western empire by various germanic
kingdoms? The political displacement of the eastern empire by the
Turks?
Once he clarifies the effect he is talking about, we can go on to
consider possible causes. (Though I doubt that it will prove to have
been the hiding of ID from schoolkiddies.)