Religions > Atheism > Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
26 Jun 2004 05:24:30 PM |
| Object: |
Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 09:43:40 PM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> ...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
What about the Hindu or the Buddhist taxpayers? And shouldn't schools also
teach the one about the Earth resting on a giant turtle? Or being held up
by Atlas? The Norse creation myths are also entertaining--definitely
include them.
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 06:12:36 PM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
<snip>
Creationism is not a theory and in fact the major groups that support it
implicitly acknowledge this when they say that you *MUST* believe in it.
The meaning of the word "faith" as (very rarely) used by a scientist in
his work has no correlation to the meaning of the word "faith" as used by
the religious.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 07:07:29 PM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea? That the raven created the universe?
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Mike Goodrich" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 08:37:19 PM |
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Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
.
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 10:25:40 AM |
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"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students with
a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what actually
happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy powerpoint
presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved". It explores the roots of
western thought and starts right back with the Greeks (Plato and his perfect
forms; Aristotle and the Scala Natura, etc.) Then we move on through the
Hebrews and Genesis before exploring the works of the 19th century
geologists like Hutton and William Smith. We look at catastrophists such as
Cuvier and the works of Jean Lamarck before finally arriving at Darwin and
Wallace. Added to this is the work of Mendel and the geneticists. I pause to
clarify the definition of science and scientific theory before presenting a
lengthy section on the varioius evidences used in support of the Theory of
Evolution. The one that the kids find the most interesting, by far, is
atavisms - the rare re-appearance of ancient structures from a previous
ancester (hind legs on whales; tails on humans)
In order to sort out the jumble and confusion injected by creationists, it
is necessary to assist students to gain perspective on the issue and place
knowledge in its proper context. In so doing they can see exactly how our
understanding of the natural world emerges through science and how belief
systems emerge to satisfy other human needs. They typically have no problems
sorting this out which always leaves me quite puzzled by the creationists
here who can't.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 07:49:33 PM |
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"R Brown" <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIBDc.909387$oR5.289635@pd7tw3no...
"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs
and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students
with
a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what
actually
happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy
powerpoint
presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved".
Any chance you could make this available to the group?
.
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| User: "Abakus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
29 Jun 2004 07:57:27 AM |
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"R Brown" <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIBDc.909387$oR5.289635@pd7tw3no...
"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs
and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students
with
a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what
actually
happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy
powerpoint
presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved". It explores the roots of
western thought and starts right back with the Greeks (Plato and his
perfect
forms; Aristotle and the Scala Natura, etc.) Then we move on through the
Hebrews and Genesis before exploring the works of the 19th century
geologists like Hutton and William Smith. We look at catastrophists such
as
Cuvier and the works of Jean Lamarck before finally arriving at Darwin and
Wallace. Added to this is the work of Mendel and the geneticists. I pause
to
clarify the definition of science and scientific theory before presenting
a
lengthy section on the varioius evidences used in support of the Theory of
Evolution. The one that the kids find the most interesting, by far, is
atavisms - the rare re-appearance of ancient structures from a previous
ancester (hind legs on whales; tails on humans)
In order to sort out the jumble and confusion injected by creationists, it
is necessary to assist students to gain perspective on the issue and place
knowledge in its proper context. In so doing they can see exactly how our
understanding of the natural world emerges through science and how belief
systems emerge to satisfy other human needs. They typically have no
problems
sorting this out which always leaves me quite puzzled by the creationists
here who can't.
Would it be possible to obtain those lectures or at least the syllabus? I'd
be very grateful.
regards
abakus
.
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| User: "Abakus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
29 Jun 2004 07:57:46 AM |
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"R Brown" <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIBDc.909387$oR5.289635@pd7tw3no...
"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs
and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students
with
a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what
actually
happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy
powerpoint
presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved". It explores the roots of
western thought and starts right back with the Greeks (Plato and his
perfect
forms; Aristotle and the Scala Natura, etc.) Then we move on through the
Hebrews and Genesis before exploring the works of the 19th century
geologists like Hutton and William Smith. We look at catastrophists such
as
Cuvier and the works of Jean Lamarck before finally arriving at Darwin and
Wallace. Added to this is the work of Mendel and the geneticists. I pause
to
clarify the definition of science and scientific theory before presenting
a
lengthy section on the varioius evidences used in support of the Theory of
Evolution. The one that the kids find the most interesting, by far, is
atavisms - the rare re-appearance of ancient structures from a previous
ancester (hind legs on whales; tails on humans)
In order to sort out the jumble and confusion injected by creationists, it
is necessary to assist students to gain perspective on the issue and place
knowledge in its proper context. In so doing they can see exactly how our
understanding of the natural world emerges through science and how belief
systems emerge to satisfy other human needs. They typically have no
problems
sorting this out which always leaves me quite puzzled by the creationists
here who can't.
Would it be possible to obtain those lectures or at least the syllabus? I'd
be very grateful.
regards
abakus
.
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| User: "Abakus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
29 Jun 2004 02:34:16 PM |
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"R Brown" <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIBDc.909387$oR5.289635@pd7tw3no...
"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs
and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students
with
a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what
actually
happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy
powerpoint
presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved". It explores the roots of
western thought and starts right back with the Greeks (Plato and his
perfect
forms; Aristotle and the Scala Natura, etc.) Then we move on through the
Hebrews and Genesis before exploring the works of the 19th century
geologists like Hutton and William Smith. We look at catastrophists such
as
Cuvier and the works of Jean Lamarck before finally arriving at Darwin and
Wallace. Added to this is the work of Mendel and the geneticists. I pause
to
clarify the definition of science and scientific theory before presenting
a
lengthy section on the varioius evidences used in support of the Theory of
Evolution. The one that the kids find the most interesting, by far, is
atavisms - the rare re-appearance of ancient structures from a previous
ancester (hind legs on whales; tails on humans)
In order to sort out the jumble and confusion injected by creationists, it
is necessary to assist students to gain perspective on the issue and place
knowledge in its proper context. In so doing they can see exactly how our
understanding of the natural world emerges through science and how belief
systems emerge to satisfy other human needs. They typically have no
problems
sorting this out which always leaves me quite puzzled by the creationists
here who can't.
Would it be possible to obtain those lectures or at least the syllabus? I'd
be very grateful.
regards
abakus
.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 05:29:12 PM |
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R Brown <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Abakus" <abakus@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8SADc.76$nz4.64@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs
and methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed
to be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due
to demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students
with a historical background. Following this example it would be
possible to include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past
many people believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of
what actually happened.
regards
abakus
This is precisely what I do in my science class. I have a lengthy
powerpoint presentation entitled "How Evolution Evolved". It explores the
roots of western thought and starts right back with the Greeks (Plato and
his perfect forms; Aristotle and the Scala Natura, etc.) Then we move on
through the Hebrews and Genesis before exploring the works of the 19th
century geologists like Hutton and William Smith. We look at
catastrophists such as Cuvier and the works of Jean Lamarck before finally
arriving at Darwin and Wallace. Added to this is the work of Mendel and
the geneticists. I pause to clarify the definition of science and
scientific theory before presenting a lengthy section on the varioius
evidences used in support of the Theory of Evolution. The one that the
kids find the most interesting, by far, is atavisms - the rare
re-appearance of ancient structures from a previous ancester (hind legs on
whales; tails on humans)
You are the science teacher I wished I had, sir.
In order to sort out the jumble and confusion injected by creationists, it
is necessary to assist students to gain perspective on the issue and place
knowledge in its proper context. In so doing they can see exactly how our
understanding of the natural world emerges through science and how belief
systems emerge to satisfy other human needs. They typically have no
problems sorting this out which always leaves me quite puzzled by the
creationists here who can't.
Selection bias. Your students are actually learning about science.
--
Dr John Wilkins
john_SPAM@wilkins.id.au http://wilkins.id.au
"Men mark it when they hit, but do not mark it when they miss"
- Francis Bacon
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 01:10:15 PM |
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"LP" <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lcdsd01dlicruvgtr7e9dcc4phog9q3c9p@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:37:19 +0000 (UTC), Mike Goodrich
<michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote:
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
That is already being taught.
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
The big bag is rather an event conjectured to account for the observation
that most of the galaxies are moving away from each other.
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Pithecanthropus Erectus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
28 Jun 2004 07:30:31 PM |
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Karl Johanson wrote:
"LP" <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lcdsd01dlicruvgtr7e9dcc4phog9q3c9p@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:37:19 +0000 (UTC), Mike Goodrich
<michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote:
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
That is already being taught.
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
The big bag is rather an event conjectured to account for the observation
that most of the galaxies are moving away from each other.
Karl Johanson
Is the "big bag" an expression of the limit of expansion of the universe?
.
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| User: "Steven J." |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 09:30:59 PM |
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"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Differences in air pressure can "create" a breeze. A beaver can "create" a
dam. A child at the beach can "create" a sandcastle, out of stuff that was
"created" by grinding down rocks over long periods of time. The word
"create" can embrace a multitude of assumptions, specifying, in itself,
neither to what extent one made or reshaped one's raw materials, or the
methods used, or even the intelligence of the creator. And, of course, "God
created using evolution as one of His tools" seems quite intelligible, if
one assumes that God is capable of working through history and historical
processes. If the Babylonians could be His tools, why could not evolution?
-- Steven J.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 07:48:18 PM |
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"Steven J." <sjt1957NOSPAM@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:10dscg473l4hgf6@corp.supernews.com...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Differences in air pressure can "create" a breeze. A beaver can "create"
a
dam. A child at the beach can "create" a sandcastle, out of stuff that
was
"created" by grinding down rocks over long periods of time. The word
"create" can embrace a multitude of assumptions, specifying, in itself,
neither to what extent one made or reshaped one's raw materials, or the
methods used, or even the intelligence of the creator. And, of course,
"God
created using evolution as one of His tools" seems quite intelligible, if
one assumes that God is capable of working through history and historical
processes. If the Babylonians could be His tools, why could not
evolution?
Any supporting observations that God used the Babylonians? Hmmm?
.
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| User: "Steven J." |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 09:56:54 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:PXJDc.163611$3x.44610@attbi_s54...
"Steven J." <sjt1957NOSPAM@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:10dscg473l4hgf6@corp.supernews.com...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Differences in air pressure can "create" a breeze. A beaver can
"create"
a
dam. A child at the beach can "create" a sandcastle, out of stuff that
was
"created" by grinding down rocks over long periods of time. The word
"create" can embrace a multitude of assumptions, specifying, in itself,
neither to what extent one made or reshaped one's raw materials, or the
methods used, or even the intelligence of the creator. And, of course,
"God
created using evolution as one of His tools" seems quite intelligible,
if
one assumes that God is capable of working through history and
historical
processes. If the Babylonians could be His tools, why could not
evolution?
Any supporting observations that God used the Babylonians? Hmmm?
The book of Habakuk, which is part of the Bible, says He did. Now, this may
not mean much to the Hindu creationists or the Raelians, but most of the ID
proponents will accept Habakuk's statement.
-- Steven J.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
28 Jun 2004 12:39:47 AM |
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"Steven J." <sjt1957NOSPAM@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:10dv2cvpm49or29@corp.supernews.com...
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:PXJDc.163611$3x.44610@attbi_s54...
"Steven J." <sjt1957NOSPAM@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:10dscg473l4hgf6@corp.supernews.com...
"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require
a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Differences in air pressure can "create" a breeze. A beaver can
"create"
a
dam. A child at the beach can "create" a sandcastle, out of stuff
that
was
"created" by grinding down rocks over long periods of time. The word
"create" can embrace a multitude of assumptions, specifying, in
itself,
neither to what extent one made or reshaped one's raw materials, or
the
methods used, or even the intelligence of the creator. And, of
course,
"God
created using evolution as one of His tools" seems quite intelligible,
if
one assumes that God is capable of working through history and
historical
processes. If the Babylonians could be His tools, why could not
evolution?
Any supporting observations that God used the Babylonians? Hmmm?
The book of Habakuk, which is part of the Bible, says He did. Now, this
may
not mean much to the Hindu creationists or the Raelians, but most of the
ID
proponents will accept Habakuk's statement.
This is not what I would call evidence.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 07:46:36 PM |
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"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Doesn't make for much of a theory does it sporto? What predictions
does this "theory" make? What observational data support this "theory"?
.
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| User: "Abakus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 08:27:38 AM |
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"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Some books of Clinical Medicine, Internal Medicine or Clinical Pathology
have an introductory chapter which recounts the history of the beliefs and
methods employed in the past, when knowledge was extremely limited,
microorganims were not known to exist, infectious diseases were believed to
be due to "bad air" and psychiatric disorders were thought to be due to
demonic possessions, etc etc. It is good, I think to provide students with a
historical background. Following this example it would be possible to
include in a biology book a brief mention that in the past many people
believed the myths of the bible to be an reliable account of what actually
happened.
regards
abakus
.
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| User: "Adam Warlock" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 08:57:27 PM |
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"Mike Goodrich" <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
That one requires a lot of faith.
.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
29 Jun 2004 03:02:29 PM |
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"Pithecanthropus Erectus" <tuibguy1creationists@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:sN2Ec.17073
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
The big bag is rather an event conjectured to account for the
observation
that most of the galaxies are moving away from each other.
Is the "big bag" an expression of the limit of expansion of the universe?
:)
Sorry. My computer was running low on n's and I wanted to save one to spell
my name right. I down loaded more n's from Dave's Discount Letter Barn.
Unfortunately, most of the n's are in Courier & I hate that font. Ah well...
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Vince Barmann" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
30 Jun 2004 02:26:18 AM |
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Karl Johanson wrote:
"Pithecanthropus Erectus" <tuibguy1creationists@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:sN2Ec.17073
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
The big bag is rather an event conjectured to account for the
observation
that most of the galaxies are moving away from each other.
Is the "big bag" an expression of the limit of expansion of the universe?
:)
Sorry. My computer was running low on n's and I wanted to save one to spell
my name right. I down loaded more n's from Dave's Discount Letter Barn.
Unfortunately, most of the n's are in Courier & I hate that font. Ah well...
Better tha having somebody P all over the screen.
Vince "Just how big was the sack of Rome?" B.
--
I'm a little ol' hoppy-toad
.
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| User: "Rodjk" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 01:06:34 AM |
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Mike Goodrich <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6>...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
So if a teacher tells you kid that Allah/Shiva/Zeus created the
universe, then that is ok with you? Interesting...
Rodjk #613
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| User: "Eros" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 09:19:01 PM |
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Mike Goodrich <michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9514DC6FC267Amichaelgoodrich@68.1.17.6>...
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
Unfortunately that is not a theory... it's a religious belief, based
on ancient superstition. Unless of course you do have a "theory" of
creation that stands up to scientific examination as well as the
Theory of Evolution does... well, do you Mike?
EROS.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am not necessarily attempting to define it; I am however appealing
to a consideration which would serve to distinguish it logically in a
categorical sense. This distinguishing characteristic would at least
be a constituent of some relevant definition, and perhaps all that is
needed in the present context." -- Mike Goodrich (Talk.Origins,
2004-06-09)
.
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
27 Jun 2004 12:26:42 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:37:19 +0000 (UTC), Mike Goodrich
<michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote:
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
That is already being taught.
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
.
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| User: "Pithecanthropus Erectus" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
28 Jun 2004 07:27:43 PM |
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LP wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:37:19 +0000 (UTC), Mike Goodrich
<michaelgoodrich@cox.net> wrote:
Karl Johanson <karljohanson@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:k6oDc.910114$Ig.703300@pd7tw2no:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Which creation idea?
Merely that the Universe was created?
That is already being taught.
The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin
of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created
sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago.
I think that the most recent estimate has been narrowed to 13.7 BYA.
This link shows the age to be somewhere between 11.2 and 20 billion
years at a level of confidence of 95%.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/age_universe_030103.html
The following link from the WMAP site, narrows the range down to 13.7
bya and 13.7 bya:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/age_universe_030103.html
And I am throwing the following in just for giggles:
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/03-ss5.htm
That they call this an encyclopedia is the funniest part.
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
28 Jun 2004 07:58:52 PM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves.
There is substantial objective evidence supporting evolution theory.
There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE supporting creationism theory.
This is a religious belief - not scientifically supported belief.
We should not teach children false theories any more than we should
continue the Santa Claus myth beyond early childhood.
April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
J. Spaceman
.
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| User: "Keenan Clay Wilkie" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
29 Jun 2004 03:52:26 PM |
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"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> writes:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves.
There is substantial objective evidence supporting evolution theory.
There is NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE supporting creationism theory.
This is a religious belief - not scientifically supported belief.
You mean that there is no "creationism theory" at all.
I've heard a number of people assert the existence of "creation theory".
Every time I ask what it is, I don't get an answer. One dishonest cretin
actually said "You already know what it is". No, I don't know what it is
because creationists ALWAYS duck the issue when the question is presented.
--
See the documented lies of Pastor Frank: http://tinyurl.com/6009
http://www.virginiaisforhaters.org/
d a r k s t a r @ i g l o u . c o m | atheist #29
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 10:42:12 PM |
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|
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
J. Spaceman
The thread I started about my science class project in which creationism
appears in part 2 "What is an example of non-science" seems to crush the
idea of "equal time". Although the creationists in this and
alt.talk.creationism deplored my "biased" treatment of creationism, not one
of them would demonstrate how creationism is an empirical science.
.
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| User: "Orac" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 10:20:33 PM |
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In article <butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com>,
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories
BZZZZZT! WRONG! STRIKE ONE!
and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
BZZZZZT! WRONG! STRIKE TWO!
There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves.
BZZZZT! WRONG! STRIKE THREE!
YER OUTTA THERE!
[Remainder of drivel snipped!]
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
.
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| User: "VoiceOfReason" |
|
| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 08:59:41 PM |
|
|
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message news:<butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com>...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
Yeah, some guy in California tried this same line over 20 years ago
and got shot down in the courts:
-----------------------------------------------------
In 1981, in Segraves v. State of California, the court found that the
California State Board of Education's Science Framework, as written
and as qualified by its antidogmatism policy, gave sufficient
accommodation to the views of Segraves, contrary to his contention
that class discussion of evolution prohibited his and his children's
free exercise of religion. (...) The court's ruling also directed the
Board of Education to disseminate the policy, which in 1989 was
expanded to cover all areas of science, not just those concerning
issues of origins. (Segraves v. California (1981) Sacramento Superior
Court #278978)
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3675_eight_significant_court_decisi_2_15_2001.asp
http://tinyurl.com/3hmol
-----------------------------------------------------
.
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| User: "SoF" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 09:17:31 PM |
|
|
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
J. Spaceman
As if there are only 2 ideas...
SoF
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 09:39:17 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:24:30 +0000 (UTC), Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith.
Teacher - Good morning class. Today we are going to talk about
Evolution and Creationism. Creationism is the concept
that a supreme being created us from dirt and bone and
made the Earth look 4 billion years old.
Teacher - Now we are going to talk about Evolution. Get out your
textbooks.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Letter to the Editor: Teach both ideas in school biology class |
26 Jun 2004 05:48:28 PM |
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|
There is very substantial and objective evidence to support evolution.
Evolution is based on a wealth of data accumulated over the years that
validate evolution.
There is NO objective evidence to support creationism. There is not even
any OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that there is a God or Gods.
--
Bill
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:butrd0d4u638dp0mh0tpsp8l0umkhnvi6j@4ax.com...
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------
Both evolution and creationism are theories and thus both require a
certain amount of faith. There is no substantial proof for either and
therefore both need to be presented to give students a fair chance to
decide for themselves. April Breneman said about the teaching of
creationism in the Dover high school biology textbook that "not only
would it influence students' choices about religion, it may, as Robert
Bowman noted, insult non-Christian taxpayers by deeming their beliefs
as unimportant." Not teaching, or at least not introducing,
creationism may very well also influence their choices about religion.
They have a right to know of every choice before they make the
decision. What of the Christian taxpayers? Shall the Dover school
board insult them by deeming their beliefs unimportant?
-----------------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/letters/30505/
J. Spaceman
.
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Related Articles |
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