| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
27 Jun 2005 01:22:44 PM |
| Object: |
libertarianism depends on religion |
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text? How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 06:58:03 AM |
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"How would an atheist libertarian justify treating animals and the
environment like trash? "
We don't. We're not the ones treating the environment like trash. The
government does that very well already.
A property right is the freedom to keep the fruit of our work, which
gives us the freedom to cooperate to improve our lives. Without
property rights, either the government owns everything, or no one does,
both leading inevitably to Tragedy of the Commons situations, social
warfare in trying to wrestle control over those goods, and devaluation
of the good.
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 10:35:43 PM |
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We're not the ones treating the environment like trash.
Hey Einstein, ever hear of the Exxon Valdez?
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 11:11:57 PM |
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We're not the ones treating the environment like trash.
Hey Einstein, ever hear of the Exxon Valdez? <<<
I'm confused. Was the Exxon Valdez a Libertarian organization? I was
speaking of Libertarians, who were accused of being polluters.
To stay on-topic, here is the quote:
"How would an atheist libertarian justify treating animals and the
environment like trash? "
If the United States Government had owned the ship, would the ship's
captain not still been a drunk?
BTW, The number one polluter in the world is the United States Army.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 09:29:29 PM |
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On 27 Jun 2005 23:58:03 -0700, "Hellbound Alleee"
<afrpennycentury@hotmail.com> thought hard and wrote:
"How would an atheist libertarian justify treating animals and the
environment like trash? "
We don't. We're not the ones treating the environment like trash. The
government does that very well already.
Indeed, who pollutes more? Some company of the United States
government?
Are all these wildfires occurring right now on government
land?
A property right is the freedom to keep the fruit of our work, which
gives us the freedom to cooperate to improve our lives. Without
property rights, either the government owns everything, or no one does,
both leading inevitably to Tragedy of the Commons situations, social
warfare in trying to wrestle control over those goods, and devaluation
of the good.
Hellbound Alleee
................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
................................................................
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 17 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 10:36:32 PM |
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Indeed, who pollutes more?
The USA pollution per capital is 10 times that of Germany.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
27 Jun 2005 02:24:47 PM |
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In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 06:22:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text?
No.
How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
They don't.
Don
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
27 Jun 2005 04:18:44 PM |
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Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 06:22:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text?
No.
The ones I've met do base it on the bible.
How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
They don't.
But libertarians claim that businesspeople should be
free to pollute, and that anyone who is harmed should
take the polluters to court. HOWEVER it is clear that
the animals and environment itself cannot take anyone
to court. Therefore libertarians are advocating for
a system in which non-human species and the environment
are treated, as I said, like so much trash.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
27 Jun 2005 09:01:25 PM |
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In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 09:18:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 06:22:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text?
No.
The ones I've met do base it on the bible.
You must have a sample of probably 2 people, then.
How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
They don't.
But libertarians claim that businesspeople should be
free to pollute,
Do they?
Don
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 09:26:27 PM |
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On 27 Jun 2005 09:18:44 -0700, thought hard and
wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 06:22:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text?
No.
The ones I've met do base it on the bible.
Then, obviously, you have not many libertarians.
How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
They don't.
But libertarians claim that businesspeople should be
free to pollute, and that anyone who is harmed should
take the polluters to court.
Indeed.
What sense does it make, however, for a company to pollute the
enviroment it is around?
HOWEVER it is clear that
the animals and environment itself cannot take anyone
to court. Therefore libertarians are advocating for
a system in which non-human species and the environment
are treated, as I said, like so much trash.
Wrong, you are.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 17 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Tak" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
27 Jun 2005 04:38:43 PM |
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On 27 Jun 2005 09:18:44 -0700, wrote:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism On 27 Jun 2005 06:22:44 -0700, let
us all know that:
It seems that libertarians believe that only
humans have "property rights". But isn't that
normally justified using the bible or some other
sacred text?
No.
The ones I've met do base it on the bible.
m ost of the ones I ment were atheists
How would an atheist libertarian
justify treating animals and the environment
like trash?
They don't.
But libertarians claim that businesspeople should be
free to pollute
No, actually.
, and that anyone who is harmed should
take the polluters to court. HOWEVER it is clear that
the animals and environment itself cannot take anyone
to court. Therefore libertarians are advocating for
a system in which non-human species and the environment
are treated, as I said, like so much trash.
If poultion goes no your property it is tresspass. And possibly
vandalism. Its not that hard to understand.
Try some non straw men next time
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
27 Jun 2005 10:45:08 PM |
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Le Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:38:43 +0000, Tak a écrit :
If poultion goes no your property it is tresspass. And possibly
vandalism. Its not that hard to understand.
Where does air pollution go?
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| User: "Tak" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 06:48:27 AM |
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 00:45:08 +0200, Divin Marquis
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:
Le Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:38:43 +0000, Tak a écrit :
If poultion goes no your property it is tresspass. And possibly
vandalism. Its not that hard to understand.
Where does air pollution go?
airspace was property last i checked
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 08:12:54 AM |
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Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:48:27 +0000, Tak a écrit :
Where does air pollution go?
airspace was property last i checked
It's not.
Do you ever wonder why people think that libertarians are nutjobs?
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 03:11:29 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:12:54 +0200, Divin Marquis
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> let us all know that:
Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 06:48:27 +0000, Tak a écrit :
Where does air pollution go?
airspace was property last i checked
It's not.
Sure it is.
Don
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 10:59:59 AM |
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Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:11:29 -0500, Don Kresch a écrit :
airspace was property last i checked
It's not.
Sure it is.
The airspace inside your skull is your property. That's the exception.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 12:45:41 PM |
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In alt.atheism On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:59:59 +0200, Divin Marquis
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> let us all know that:
Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:11:29 -0500, Don Kresch a écrit :
airspace was property last i checked
It's not.
Sure it is.
The airspace inside your skull is your property. That's the exception.
*yawn*
Get back to me when you have some sort of clue.
Don
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 10:33:54 PM |
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Tak wrote:
Where does air pollution go?
airspace was property last i checked
Your style of argumentation is so narrow and
laced with faith in the legal system, it is
downright evangelical.
Everyone who knows about pollution knows
that Eskimos have come down with numerous
illnesses because of air pollution coming
from North America and China. According to your
religion called Libertarianism, the Eskimos
can just sue somebody to get a remedy.
But that's obviously false, because there
is no specific company that can be tracked
down to sue.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
28 Jun 2005 11:25:46 PM |
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In alt.atheism On 28 Jun 2005 15:33:54 -0700, let
us all know that:
Tak wrote:
Where does air pollution go?
airspace was property last i checked
Your style of argumentation is so narrow and
laced with faith in the legal system, it is
downright evangelical.
That's nice. But you keep begging the question and poisoning
the well.
Everyone who knows about pollution knows
that Eskimos have come down with numerous
illnesses because of air pollution coming
from North America and China. According to your
religion called Libertarianism, the Eskimos
can just sue somebody to get a remedy.
There's a religion called "libertarianism"? News to me. Why
don't you go ahead and prove that.
Don
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 11:01:41 AM |
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Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:25:46 -0500, Don Kresch a écrit :
There's a religion called "libertarianism"? News to me. Why
don't you go ahead and prove that.
It's a figure of speech.
It certainly has some characteristics of a religion.
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| User: "Dr. Zarkov" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 04:06:00 PM |
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Divin Marquis wrote:
Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:25:46 -0500, Don Kresch a écrit :
There's a religion called "libertarianism"? News to me. Why
don't you go ahead and prove that.
It's a figure of speech.
It certainly has some characteristics of a religion.
Nonsense.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 08:40:12 PM |
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On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:06:00 -0400, "Dr. Zarkov" <Ming@Mongo.com> wrote:
Divin Marquis wrote:
Le Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:25:46 -0500, Don Kresch a écrit :
There's a religion called "libertarianism"? News to me. Why
don't you go ahead and prove that.
It's a figure of speech.
It certainly has some characteristics of a religion.
Nonsense.
Well, Libertarian economics would certainly require divine intervention to stand
any chance of working. <G>
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 08:47:02 PM |
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"Libertarian economics would certainly require divine intervention to
stand
any chance of working."
They're working fine right now, why would they require divine
intervention to work in the future ? I'd say it would require divine
intervention for statist monopolies to become efficient, or for black
markets to become safe, or... you know, any of the other major and
well-recognized problems of statist economies...
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 09:39:41 PM |
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On 29 Jun 2005 13:47:02 -0700, "Hellbound Alleee" <afrpennycentury@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Libertarian economics would certainly require divine intervention to
stand
any chance of working."
They're working fine right now, why would they require divine
intervention to work in the future ?
Tell me where they're working so I can move there, because it certainly isn't
here in the good ol' US of A, where everything's going up except my wages. <G>
I'd say it would require divine
intervention for statist monopolies to become efficient, or for black
markets to become safe, or... you know, any of the other major and
well-recognized problems of statist economies...
Hellbound Alleee
................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
................................................................
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 09:50:08 PM |
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"it certainly isn't here in the good ol' US of A, where everything's
going up except my wages."
Ah, I see you belong to the Seinfeld school of economy : facts don't
matter if you can make a pithy remark against something. A
crowd-pleaser, no doubt, but still inane and pointless.
As for the USA, well, why any atheist would want to live there is
beyond me.
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 09:56:51 PM |
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Hellbound Alleee wrote:
As for the USA, well, why any atheist would want to live there
is beyond me.
Some of us were born here, have roots here, and think of the great
days of old--and wish to bring them back.
We /do/ still have that glorious atheist manifesto, the
Constitution, after all--even if it is quite frayed around the
edges. Though many would seek to unravel it further, others are
trying to patch it back up again.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 10:02:15 PM |
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That's one way of seeing it. A more.. shall we say.. detached viewpoint
makes your noble words look like so many paper airplanes plunging in
the Fundamentalist Christian ocean.
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
29 Jun 2005 10:21:51 PM |
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Hellbound Alleee wrote:
That's one way of seeing it. A more.. shall we say.. detached
viewpoint makes your noble words look like so many paper
airplanes plunging in the Fundamentalist Christian ocean.
Considering you're right on the shores of that ocean, would you
rather we tried to stem the tide or not?
Because, rest assured, if America ever /does/ truly become a
Fundamentalist Christian nation, there won't be a place on Earth
you can hide.
Actually, there won't be a non-radioactive place on Earth, period.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
30 Jun 2005 01:31:58 AM |
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"if America ever /does/ truly become a Fundamentalist Christian
nation"
What do you mean "become" ?
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
30 Jun 2005 01:57:18 AM |
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Hellbound Alleee wrote:
"if America ever /does/ truly become a Fundamentalist Christian
nation"
What do you mean "become" ?
It's bad, to be sure, but it's /nowhere/ near as bad as it could
be. Just compare America today with Germany several decades ago.
There are several signs of chinks in Bush's armor. With even the
slightest bit of luck, the house of cards will shortly come
tumbling down. *If* that happens--and I do stress, ``if''--the
backlash will do a lot to swing the pendulum back the other way.
If not...well, we're probably all fucked, and definitely not in a
good way. Sad to say, you probably won't escape, either.
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "Hellbound Alleee" |
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| Title: Re: libertarianism depends on religion |
30 Jun 2005 02:33:11 AM |
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I didn't say it was as bad as Nazi Germany. You're the one who came up
with that. I'm afraid I have to call you on Godwin's Law now. You lose.
;)
Hellbound Alleee
.................................................................
Listen to the Hellbound Alleee Show at http://www.hellboundalleee.com
.................................................................
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