Religions > Atheism > Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays'
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
22 Apr 2006 03:29:49 PM |
| Object: |
Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
Librarians to sever ties with Scouts?
Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays'
By Walter Skold
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
In 1998, the council of the ALA, the world's largest library
organization, condemned the Boy Scouts over its policies, but a
WorldNetDaily investigation reveals activists quietly are planning to take
action at the association's annual convention in June.
The renewed effort is led by Mark Rosenzweig, formerly an official
archivist with the U.S. Communist Party and a chief defender of Fidel Castro
in the ALA controversy over the communist regime's repression of the
independent library movement in Cuba, reported by WorldNetDaily .
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Rosenzweig unveiled his proposal April 9 on the ALA council e-mail
list, declaring, "I am tired of seeing Council pass resolutions which like
the previous one on the BSA are never monitored or reported back upon and
for which no one takes responsibility."
He was referring to a 1999 ALA resolution, which read: "That the
American Library Association urges the Boy Scouts of America to reconsider
their policy of discrimination in the areas of sexual orientation and
religious belief and demonstrate a commitment to human rights,
inclusiveness, and mutual respect."
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they would
disrespect those rights."
Michael Golrick, an ALA council member and city librarian for
Bridgeport, Ct., told WND he believes the resolution "will accomplish
exactly what the last one did: No changes in BSA policies, and irritated
librarians who hold views not shared by the radical left."
Golrick was one of the few council members to publicly object to the
1999 resolution. He wore his Scout uniform to the meeting, prompting
ridicule from John Berry III, editor of Library Journal, who called it
"silly."
"This resolution plays into the hands of critics who take ALA to task
for being too liberal," Golrick warned. "If anything, this will turn off
many librarians who might otherwise join the organization since it positions
ALA in such a left-wing position."
The announcement of the new proposal touched off a flurry of policy
questions and debate on the ALA council e-mail list in which members from
various committees looked into old records to see what is meant by phrases
such as "affiliate," "liaison" and "official."
In response to apparent uncertainty about the outcome of the previous
resolution, Stephen L. Matthews, a councilor-at-large, said "We still need
to hear from ALSC about what is really happening today."
"Whether there is anything happening or not," he added, "it is
important to reiterate our concern to BSA about the destructive nature of
their so-called 'moral modeling' policy."
Matthews said, with little response from fellow councilors, "I
wholeheartedly support additional communication with BSA challenging their
policy of intolerance and its encouragement of hate and contempt as part of
their organizational commitment to 'moral education.'"
The volume and intensity of the response on weblogs, e-mail lists and
e-mails to WND shows the issue has struck a chord.
Among the opinions received by WND after querying three library e-mail
lists are these:
a.. We should be open to working with the Boy Scouts or any
organization which does so much to help boys in so many ways. If ALA wants
to help the Scouts become more inclusive, they certainly won't do it by
severing all contact and shutting them out of our organization. - Carol
Simmons, director, Daly City Library, Calif.
b.. I am so sick of the ALA speaking for ALL librarians when I
believe that they are only speaking for a MINORITY of librarians. I was a
Boy Scout leader for 10 years. Boys Scouts is a great organization. The ALA
needs to concentrate on library issues and leave the Boy Scouts ALONE!!!!! -
Sharon Beever, Maine.
c.. "This could turn into a bigger brouhaha than Dr. Laura started,
and even teach the Scouts themselves how uptight we are about being
liberal - another side of bigotry," wrote a retired California librarian who
wished to remain anonymous. "Young people deserve better."
"Couldn't ALA show the bigger heart and merely proclaim itself
disapproving of the BSA stance and continue to help the Scouts in the
reading and librarianship business?" she wondered.
d.. "I absolutely believe the ALA should take this action, as should
all organizations committed to fairness. With its goal of being "a leader in
recruiting and developing a highly qualified and diverse library work
force," the organization must take actions like the proposed resolution to
improve the profession's relationship to diversity." - Liberty Smith.
e.. "Because the Boy Scouts choose to discriminate within their
organization, my family does not support any of their local or national
efforts. I would truly appreciate the gesture of ALA breaking all ties with
them as well." - Katie O'Dell, reading promotions coordinator, Multnomah
County Library, Portland, Ore.
f.. "We would be undermining another value - that of inclusivity -
that many people love about libraries and by extension ALA. On the other
hand our relationships say something about our values, and not making some
sort of statement puts us in murky ethical territory - kind of like not
divesting in the Sudan or wherever. I wonder if there is some middle ground
that preserves the value of inclusivity." University of California
librarian.
g.. "BSA will not change its policies but ALA can and should." -
"Big grandma"
Officially, leaders of the ALA and its divisions appear to be taking a
cautious approach.
Asked the president's opinion and if the executive board had discussed
the issue, ALA spokeswoman Larra Clark said, "The ALA executive board is not
discussing the BSA matter at this time, but I can let you know if action is
taken in the future."
Officials at the Association of Library Services to Children, which
has had the most contact with the BSA - and which was criticized most on the
council list - did not reply to WND by press time.
Beth Yoke, executive director of the Young Adult Library Services
Association, or YALSA, told WND that if an official resolution "regarding
any issue is put before ALA's council, YALSA's board of directors, when it
next meets, will discuss the proposed resolution with the intent of coming
to a consensus on what direction to provide YALSA's Councilor on how to vote
on the resolution."
She also confirmed her group has not received any complaints from ALA
members or the public about the informal contacts the ALA maintains with the
Scouts.
Librarian and ALA council candidate Greg McClay says the lack of
public outcry over the BSA-ALA relationship shows there is "no professional
reasoning behind any of this, as libraries serve everyone."
"This is strictly personal politics," he charged, pointing out
comments posted on the weblog of ALA councilor K. R. Roberto, who said
"Personally, I am rather uncomfortable with the concept of ALA having close
ties with an organization that finds me morally unfit."
"And yet this person engages in a discussion to decide if the Boy
Scouts are morally fit enough for ALA to have close ties with?" said McClay,
a Massachusetts librarian.
While no scientific opinion polls have been take, this week the ALA's
American Libraries Direct online magazine asked the question, "Should the
Boy Scouts of America's policy of excluding agnostics, atheists, and gays
prohibit libraries from cooperating with the organization in joint
programs?"
Forty-Seven percent voted yes while a majority, 53 percent, vote no.
There is a difference, however, between this poll and an informal one
by WND. The WND question asked only about a resolution that would cut off
relations with the BSA; it didn't mention particular libraries.
Even supporters of the resolution within the ALA have not gone as far
as to say individual libraries should not cooperate with Scouts and Scout
troops.
As Rosenzweig wrote to the council list: "Serving the needs of members
of the Boy Scouts is one thing, supporting the BSA, Inc. organizationally
linking to them is QUITE another."
The AL Direct poll seems to indicate many members are not familiar
with the Library Bill of Rights, which forbids viewpoint with respect to
collection policy and public use.
"Who are we to tell the Boy Scouts that their philosophies are wrong?
Have the Boy Scouts told ALA that they disagree with our stand on certain
issues?" asked Evelyn Bell, administrative secretary at the Moreno, Calif.,
Valley Public Library. "While I don't agree with BSA's stand on atheists and
homosexuals, I'm not interested in alienating, as a group, an organization
who works at creating good citizens."
In support of her argument against the resolution, Bell cited a policy
on tolerance from the BSA website:
"A core value of the BSA is respect. Scouting respects those with
ideas and customs that are different from our own and expects the same
respect from those who may disagree with Scouting's position. Tolerance for
a diversity of values and ideals does not require abdication of one's own
values."
"If human rights are the issue let us remove the mask of deception,"
wrote Nanette Overholt a library associate at the Solano, Calif., County
Library.
"There is no persecution against the right to be gay that comes from
the Boy Scouts of America, but there does seem to be a constant harassment
and bullying from the gay community for the Boy Scouts to conform to their
beliefs," she complained. "The gay community seems to want to abolish the
right and freedom to think differently than themselves."
"Let me leave you with this question: Who is tolerant here?" she
ended.
Anthony E. Lee, a professor and librarian at Seton Hall University in
New Jersey, agreed in a telephone interview that, "This would be going
against their very own principles of liberal openness" not to tolerate the
Scouts.
Lee, a longtime BSA and ALA member who has degrees from Seton Hall,
Columbia University and Princeton, told WND, "The Boy Scouts of America,
ever since I was in scouting in the 1960s, has maintained a stance that is
unchanged by the winds of caprice."
"Meaning they are who they have always been - very straight-laced," he
added, "And I, being an Eagle Scout and a member of the Order of the Arrow
have always backed Scouting in that stance."
"Look, if you don't subscribe to ALA rules you don't have to join,"
agreed Bork. "There is no 'right' to membership."
But Bork agreed that if discrimination is seen from the standpoint of
ALA policies, one could conclude the association has the right, as a private
organization, to choose not to associate with the BSA.
"It is a private, non-profit group and it has rights for membership
standards," said Bork, "But we would find it insulting if the ALA removed
all mention of Scouts from their websites."
The renewed debate over the Boy Scout resolution will come to a head
at the ALA annual convention this June in New Orleans when the council can
decide to table the resolution, accept or modify it, or recommend that the
matter be given further consideration by a relevant committee.
"There will be, if necessary, a floor fight," the resolution sponsor
Rosenzweig already has told his fellow council members.
"And this time I hope the majority is not bullied by special interests
connected to the BSA," he said.
Golrick warned those same council members: "As a public library
director, I know how critical it is to have support throughout the
community. The youth of today are the voters of tomorrow. How can
[libraries] expect support in the future, if we do not support the youth
today."
--
----------
J Young
youngopinions@aol.com
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 07:43:26 PM |
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wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as
you would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 09:47:51 PM |
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"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
news:O4A2g.6562$YI5.6315@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 10:13:53 AM |
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Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
Well, this should be interesting: "How so?"
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 10:47:49 AM |
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"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
news:RQM2g.6709$YI5.3213@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said
BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a
non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
Well, this should be interesting: "How so?"
Why does the ALA disagree with the BSA?
Why do they think they have the authority to change something they are not
authorized to change?
For them to propose things contrary to the BSA is enough for the BSA to
propose things that are contrary to the ALA's agenda.
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 07:29:57 PM |
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Johnny wrote:
Why does the ALA disagree with the BSA?
I think they've stated the reasons.
Why do they think they have the authority to change something they are not
authorized to change?
Changing what? Their right to associate with those they disagree with?
That hasn't changed.
For them to propose things contrary to the BSA is enough for the BSA to
propose things that are contrary to the ALA's agenda.
Yeah, learning, seeking knowledge, encouraging thought. That's bad!
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 07:47:05 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:47:49 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
news:RQM2g.6709$YI5.3213@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said
BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a
non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
Well, this should be interesting: "How so?"
Why does the ALA disagree with the BSA?
Why do they think they have the authority to change something they are not
authorized to change?
Are you suggesting that the ALA, doesn't have the authority to stop giving
handouts, if it doesn't like the way the money is used?
For them to propose things contrary to the BSA is enough for the BSA to
propose things that are contrary to the ALA's agenda.
Irrelevant. Besides; What does the BSA do for the ALA?
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| User: "Boy Toy" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 12:37:57 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:13:53 GMT, Dionisio
<moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
<RQM2g.6709$YI5.3213@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>
Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
Well, this should be interesting: "How so?"
Who cares? The ALA isn't a religious organization. The BSA is. The
BSA can choose to be bound all it wants by its own religious dogma,
but that doesn't mean the ALA has to be so bound. In this case, I say
the best rule is "what goes around comes around." It's probably even
in the bible somewhere if you "interpret" hard enough.
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| User: "Miriam Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 03:33:02 PM |
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Boy Toy wrote:
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:13:53 GMT, Dionisio
<moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
<RQM2g.6709$YI5.3213@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>
Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
"It is scary that an organization which purports to believe in free
speech and intellectual freedom would take this kind of action," said BSA
spokesman Bob Bork. "It is a Soviet-style effort to make us a non-person."
Guess the "Christian organization" hasn't heard of "do unto others as you
would have them do unto you," or it has and objects.
Hmm. Seems to me the ALA is transgressing the Golden Rule here.
Well, this should be interesting: "How so?"
Who cares? The ALA isn't a religious organization. The BSA is. The
BSA can choose to be bound all it wants by its own religious dogma,
but that doesn't mean the ALA has to be so bound. In this case, I say
the best rule is "what goes around comes around." It's probably even
in the bible somewhere if you "interpret" hard enough.
IIRC Public libraries are at least partially funded by governing bodies
(local/ state) and aren't they therefore forbidden to give money to
religious organizations?
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 04:02:09 PM |
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wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
..
..
..
..
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
Jim
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 09:44:36 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1145739729.336237.116650@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts
of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against
avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
.
.
.
.
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard
to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights
of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they
would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
how typically hypocritical.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 10:12:32 AM |
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Johnny wrote:
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
Ah, care to cite the case law that says the ALA *must* give the BSA
funds, space, and genuflections?
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 10:44:43 AM |
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"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote in message
news:APM2g.6708$YI5.3032@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
Johnny wrote:
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
Ah, care to cite the case law that says the ALA *must* give the BSA funds,
space, and genuflections?
No.
I see nothing that requires the ALA to give anything to the BSA.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
So, why are they bitching about it then?
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 07:25:54 PM |
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Johnny wrote:
"Dionisio" <moc-rr-thgisniTA@5ellimd.com> wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
Ah, care to cite the case law that says the ALA *must* give the BSA funds,
space, and genuflections?
No.
I see nothing that requires the ALA to give anything to the BSA.
Fascinating. I've seen light bouncing off of mirrors performing slower 180s.
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 07:41:06 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:44:43 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
So, why are they bitching about it then?
They ain't. They are simply withdrawing support, and explaining why.
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 08:05:13 PM |
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"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:mj7o42h35e08i5up3d3m2ud3i7gcnpcpef@4ax.com...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:44:43 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
So, why are they bitching about it then?
They ain't. They are simply withdrawing support, and explaining why.
No one cares.
The person who posted it just wanted to show people what the ALA is made of
now.
You got a problem with that?
They are showing the ALA to be a bunch of wimpy bitching complainers.
The BSA doesn;t care about the ALA withdrawing their support.
No one cares.
No one cares because the ALA doesn't care.
The ALA is intolerant of the BSA.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 10:04:47 AM |
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"Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote in message
news:wvV2g.8266$t61.6029@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:mj7o42h35e08i5up3d3m2ud3i7gcnpcpef@4ax.com...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 11:44:43 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
So, why are they bitching about it then?
They ain't. They are simply withdrawing support, and explaining why.
No one cares.
The person who posted it just wanted to show people what the ALA is made
of now.
You got a problem with that?
They are showing the ALA to be a bunch of wimpy bitching complainers.
The BSA doesn;t care about the ALA withdrawing their support.
No one cares.
No one cares because the ALA doesn't care.
The ALA is intolerant of the BSA.
So? Are you tolerant of the KKK?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 07:32:30 PM |
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Johnny wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
They ain't. They are simply withdrawing support, and explaining why.
No one cares.
Except, of course, you...
The BSA doesn;t care about the ALA withdrawing their support.
Then why the whining?
--
"If Christians want us to believe in a Redeemer, let them act redeemed."
--Voltaire
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| User: "Miriam Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discriminationagainst atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 03:30:48 PM |
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Dionisio wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
Ah, care to cite the case law that says the ALA *must* give the BSA
funds, space, and genuflections?
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aren't.
Doesn't it amaze you that "Johnny" didn't kill himself as a child by
running with scissors? However did that boy survive childhood with such
an obvious lack of intelligence or even common sense?
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 07:39:31 PM |
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:44:36 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
No they aint, they are simply exercising their first amendment right, to only
associate with those they like.
The BSA, refuses to associate with gays, and atheists, and the ALA refuses to
associate/finance, bigots.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
how typically hypocritical.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aint trying to. They are simply exercising their rights of freedom of
association., and freedom of speech.
They have chosen not to associate, and have stated why.
If the BSA, does not like that, then they have the right, NOT to go begging at
the ALA's door, for funds.
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 08:08:13 PM |
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"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:837o42lcs6dcjbb0hefil1vjkhehftg9o4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:44:36 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
No they aint, they are simply exercising their first amendment right, to
only
associate with those they like.
The BSA, refuses to associate with gays, and atheists, and the ALA refuses
to
associate/finance, bigots.
Which means they would withdraw any and all support from atheists and gays,
who are the chief bigots in the USA.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
What I typed seems more reasonable.
how typically hypocritical.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aint trying to. They are simply exercising their rights of freedom
of
association., and freedom of speech.
I do NOT care.
I really don't care about any defense you make for the ALA in this.
They have chosen not to associate, and have stated why.
Because they are bigoted against the BSA.
WE KNOW WHY!
If the BSA, does not like that, then they have the right, NOT to go
begging at
the ALA's door, for funds.
Is that when you will stop begging for breast cancer research dollars?
LOL!!!!!!!!
is that when you will stop asking people for money to fight AIDS?
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
23 Apr 2006 09:25:57 PM |
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Johnny <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:837o42lcs6dcjbb0hefil1vjkhehftg9o4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:44:36 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
No they aint, they are simply exercising their first amendment right, to
only
associate with those they like.
The BSA, refuses to associate with gays, and atheists, and the ALA refuses
to
associate/finance, bigots.
Which means they would withdraw any and all support from atheists and gays,
who are the chief bigots in the USA.
People aren't obligated to accept YOUR hatred and lies.
how typically hypocritical.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aint trying to. They are simply exercising their rights of freedom
of
association., and freedom of speech.
I do NOT care.
You're sure whining a lot for somebody who doesn't care.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 06:36:48 AM |
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"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:444c3735$0$1515$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
Johnny <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:837o42lcs6dcjbb0hefil1vjkhehftg9o4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:44:36 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
No they aint, they are simply exercising their first amendment right, to
only
associate with those they like.
The BSA, refuses to associate with gays, and atheists, and the ALA
refuses
to
associate/finance, bigots.
Which means they would withdraw any and all support from atheists and
gays,
who are the chief bigots in the USA.
People aren't obligated to accept YOUR hatred and lies.
What hatred, what lies?
how typically hypocritical.
The ALA has no authority to make rules for the BSA.
They aint trying to. They are simply exercising their rights of freedom
of
association., and freedom of speech.
I do NOT care.
You're sure whining a lot for somebody who doesn't care.
I treat others the way they treat others.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
24 Apr 2006 12:21:09 PM |
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Johnny <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:444c3735$0$1515$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
Johnny <wxpprofessional@msn.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:837o42lcs6dcjbb0hefil1vjkhehftg9o4@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:44:36 -0400, "Johnny" <wxpprofessional@msn.com>
wrote:
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
Actually, it is the ALA that is interferring with the independent BSA
organization.
No they aint, they are simply exercising their first amendment right, to
only
associate with those they like.
The BSA, refuses to associate with gays, and atheists, and the ALA
refuses
to
associate/finance, bigots.
Which means they would withdraw any and all support from atheists and
gays,
who are the chief bigots in the USA.
People aren't obligated to accept YOUR hatred and lies.
What hatred, what lies?
Your murderous hatred of gays and atheists.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Andrealphus" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 04:09:34 PM |
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In News 1145739729.336237.116650@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,, J Forbes at
jforbspam@fastmail.fm, typed this:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy
Scouts of America until the youth organization stops
"discriminating" against avowed atheists and homosexuals.
.
.
.
.
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter
disregard to the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have
the same rights of freedom of association as the ALA and it is
disgusting to think they would disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
Jim
I guess it hasn't dawned in jyoung that the ALA has decided to disassociate
from the BSA... Which would seem to be the very right that jyoung is
complaining about.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Boy Toy" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 06:34:40 PM |
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On 22 Apr 2006 14:02:09 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote in message
<1145739729.336237.116650@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
.
.
.
.
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
Jim
And the sad part is that the BSA doesn't realize it. It's a classic
symptom of xtianity.
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| User: "Johnny" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 09:45:34 PM |
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"Boy Toy" <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com> wrote in message
news:j9fl42pmiceo7hbuc7j90c64drb2esoq72@4ax.com...
On 22 Apr 2006 14:02:09 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote in message
<1145739729.336237.116650@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts
of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against
avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
.
.
.
.
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter
disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights
of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they
would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
Jim
And the sad part is that the BSA doesn't realize it. It's a classic
symptom of xtianity.
The ALA's statement is an example of their anti-liberty stance.
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 04:02:22 PM |
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wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
..
..
..
..
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
Jim
.
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| User: "Fooj" |
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| Title: Re: Librarians to sever ties with Scouts? Effort underway cites discrimination against atheists, 'gays' |
22 Apr 2006 06:32:18 PM |
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J Forbes wrote:
youngopinions@aol.com wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49860
A renewed effort by several members of the American Library
Association's governing council would sever all ties with the Boy Scouts of
America until the youth organization stops "discriminating" against avowed
atheists and homosexuals.
.
.
.
.
The BSA's Bork responded: "How could they show such utter disregard to
the First Amendment rights of any organization? We have the same rights of
freedom of association as the ALA and it is disgusting to think they would
disrespect those rights."
let's see here....BSA has the right of freedom of association, but
wants to deny this right to the ALA
how typically hypocritical.
The communist agent of ALA is there to sheild the boyscouts from
accusations of fascism and accusations actually wanting homosexual
scout masters. Perhaps the fascists want the Boy Scouts to continue to
be government funded and introduce homo scout masters. I think the Boy
Scouts should actively remove themselves from government funding. I
think if a parent likes the ideals of the boy scout, then the parent
should have his own family camping trips rather than relying on the Boy
Scouts.
The Boy Scouts supposed to be a gay, fascist and nonfamily organization
by design. I think their doomed.
.
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| User: "fgoodwin" |
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| Title: ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts ! |
28 Apr 2006 04:11:30 PM |
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ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
http://lp-web.ala.org:8000/guest/archives/ALACOUN/log0604/msg00063.html
http://tinyurl.com/hesj4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
To: ALA Council List <alacoun@ala1.ala.org>
Subject: [ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
From: MCR <>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:54:05 -0400
Cc: srrtac-l@ala.org, PLGNET-L@listproc.sjsu.edu.
Reply-To:
Sender:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
Time is up for ALA's relationship with the Boy Scouts of America.
After two years of debate in the late '90s the ALA Council voted that
our concerns about BSA's discriminatory policies with regards to
homosexuals and atheists, affecting scouts and scoutmasters alike, was
putting us in conflict with some of our most basic principles. (See ALA
Council Actions, 1999 ALA Midwinter Meeting (January 29-February 3,
1999, Actions of the ALA Council February 3 (?), 1999) Philadelphia,
PA, Council III)
VOTED, To adopt CD#51-A, Resolution on the Boy Scouts of America, which
read: "That the American Library Association urges the Boy Scouts of
America to reconsider their policy of discrimination in the areas of
sexual orientation and religious belief and demonstrate a commitment to
human rights, inclusiveness, and mutual respect."(1998-99 CD#51-A)
Councilor Karen Schneider put this matter well back then:
"After two years of debate, it was agreed that as a group with a
relationship to the Boy Scouts, what we wanted to do, and what we were
in a very good position to do, is ask them to reconsider their
policy--nothing more or less. Considering the reaction of other
organizations to the Supreme Court decision, our response to an issue
which the Boy Scouts alone chose to raise--no one asked them to start a
witch-hunt on their gay members--was constructive, moderate, and
prescient.
It was that Council vote that is responsible for why I am still in ALA.
We all have our self-esteem issues, and those of us who are gay often
find ourselves overlooking or rationalizing comments that were they
directed at persons of color, women, the disabled, etc. would invoke
outrage in ourselves as well as others. But I do get to decide where my
money goes, and I would not, could not pay dues (not to mention
attending conference, etc.--I recently totted up what I spent on
ALA-related activities in the last decade, and it was not
inconsiderable) to an organization that would not stick up for a
significant percentage of its own members--those who are gay, and those
who support gay rights--in such a modest, diplomatic, but ultimately
important way. Karen G. Schneider"
The culminating official action to which Schneider refers was as
follows:
Since then we have heard NOTHING about the response of the Boy Scouts
of America to this resolution.
I would like Council to be able to see how this had been communicated
to BSA by ALA and, hopefully, by ALSC; what their written/formal
response was;how their response was communicated byh the EB to relevant
sections; how the matter was publicized if at all, in order to actually
put pressure on the BSA; what progress has been made, if any (there's
has been NONE to my knowledge as of today) ; and what we intend to do
about the apparent utter disregard by the BSA of our concerns. We know
these practices of discrimination continue, are still being defended in
the courts, and that many scouts and scoutmasters have been and are
being affected adversely.
THis week I saw aired on HBO an current episode of Penn [Gillete] and
Teller's "BULSHIT!!" in which these equal-opportunity debunkers took on
the Boy Scouts and demonstrated the unreconstructed and even deepened
nature of the BSA's commitment to bigotry and their domination by the
Mormon Church, whose religious influence they essay.
It is intolerable now as it was in the 90s to be providing SPECIAL
SERVICES to the BSA, in engaging in SPECIAL ORGANIZATIONL
CO-ACTIVITIES, in CO-SPONSORSHIPS with an organization which brazenly
and ever more extensively practices discrimination on the basis of
sexual orientation, religious belief, and sectarian "moral
values".Serving the needs of members of the Boy Scouts is one thing,
supporting the BSA, Inc. organizationally linking to them is QUITE
another.
Penn and Teller, in their uniquely acute and acidic manner, point out
that the BSA that they knew (which is the one I knew as a young scout)
changed in the 1980s when it was virtually taken over by the Mormon
Church (they present the numbers about Mormon influence and interviews
with proponents of it). Of course it is not just Mormonism but to a
lesser degree other religious fundamentalist organizations who exercise
decisive determinant influence over the oaths and obligations of
troops around the country. The national policy remains unequivocal
rejection of the morality and fitness of homosexuals and atheists and
their exclusion from or expulsion from the BSA.
It is time to tally the balance sheet here. In my estimate, NO progress
has been made in their adjusting their behavior based on religious and
sexual-orientation prejudice. If ALA remains committed to combatting
those evils it is high time to re-open this chapter and say "They had
their chance. They ignored our concerns. We must terminate any special
relations to the BSA through designated liaisons, joint-programs etc.
I will be rallying support for this before the ALA New Orleans
conference. There will be a resolution. There will be, if necessary a
floor fight and this time I hope the majority is not bullied by special
interests connected to the BSA to allow the argument of their "long
term relationship" with an organization which radically changed its
position on these matters for the=B4worse since the 80s (i.e. in the
middle of that relationship) to use longevity as an argument for
continuation.
I will. be bringing to Council a resolution along the following lines:
RESOLUTION ON THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA
WHEREAS the American Library Association (ALA) has had a long official
relationship with the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), currently in the
form, among other things, of a designated ALSC (Association for Library
Service to Children liaison; and
WHEREAS ALA and units may provide bibliographies and other material and
services to any organization with or without formal or official
affiliation and therefore can continue to do due diligence; and
WHEREAS the BSA continues to exclude persons from membership and
leadership on the basis of religious ideas and/or sexual orientation;
and
WHEREAS ALA Policy 9.5 specifically prohibits ALA or its component
units from having formal relationships with organizations which violate
ALA=EDs principles and policies regarding human rights and social
justice; and
WHEREAS ALA policies 54/17 and 60.2 declare the Association=EDs support
for gay rights and against creed-based discrimination; therefore be it
RESOLVED that the American Library Association calls upon ALA to
suspend formal or official relations with the Boy Scouts of America
until such time as the Boy Scouts of America ends its exclusionary
policy on the basis of a person=EDs religious beliefs or sexual
orientation; and be it further
RESOLVED that the ALA once again strongly urges the Boy Scouts of
America to change its membership practices so that they demonstrate a
commitment to human rights, inclusiveness and mutual respect before
prior relations with us can be restored.
I need a seconder and will send this immediately to the resolutions
committee.
I am tired of seeing Council pass resolutions which like the previous
one on the BSA are never monitored or reported back upon and for which
no one takes responsibility. This time we should be decisive and see if
that makes any difference. In any case, it's the right thing to do and
the right time to finally do it.
Mark C. Rosenzweig
ALA Councilor at large
.
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| User: "Bitchin Bonney" |
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| Title: Re: ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts ! |
28 Apr 2006 09:47:53 PM |
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On 28 Apr 2006 14:11:30 -0700, "fgoodwin" <fgoodwin@yahoo.com> wrote:
ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
http://lp-web.ala.org:8000/guest/archives/ALACOUN/log0604/msg00063.html
http://tinyurl.com/hesj4
--------------------------------------------------------------------
To: ALA Council List <alacoun@ala1.ala.org>
Subject: [ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
From: MCR < >
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:54:05 -0400
Cc: srrtac-l@ala.org, PLGNET-L@listproc.sjsu.edu.
Reply-To:
Sender:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Time's up for the Boy Scouts !
Time is up for ALA's relationship with the Boy Scouts of America.
Do they still provide meeting facilities for the "North American
Man/Boy Love Association" (NAMBLA) at several libraries in San
Francisco?
.
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