| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
02 Nov 2005 02:51:53 PM |
| Object: |
Life After Darwin |
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/morgan5.html
My Life After Darwin
by John R Morgan, MD
Like most people, I never really bought the idea that life just
spontaneously developed out of nowhere, and then humans came from fish
or whatever.
It just didn't make sense.
A man named William Dembski with a PhD in mathematics from the
University of Chicago and a PhD in philosophy from the University of
Illinois has developed one good explanation why I always felt this way.
Let's say that you go to see the carving of Confederate heroes on
Stone Mountain right outside of Atlanta. Even though you didn't
actually see anyone perform the carving, you can infer that a designer
made the images. Now if you go to the back of the mountain and see
various amorphous shapes (although they are statistically as improbable
as the carving), you assume that they were randomly formed by erosion.
I know what you are thinking. This is basic common sense.
Unfortunately, however, we live in a time where common sense must be
justified; hence, Dembski is creating mathematical models to test the
validity of inferring design from something that is improbable and
specific. He hopes to prove that life falls into the category of
intelligent design.
I laud his efforts but in a way it is a sad commentary on our society.
Another man, Berkley law professor Phillip Johnson, has criticized the
intellectual leaps of faith necessary to accept evolution as a
life-creating force (leaps that I was never convinced to take). Johnson
argues that Darwinism has ceased to be a scientific theory and is now a
tautology that conveniently explains everything in nature. Although
Darwin himself operated within the context of the scientific method by
giving examples of empirical observations that would refute his
hypothesis, modern-day evolutionists entertain no such claims. Their
position is derived from a presupposed metaphysical belief that God
cannot exist.
As Johnson points out, in 1859 when Darwin wrote The Origin of Species
(actually entitled The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection;
or, the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life), the
fossil record was relatively incomplete. Darwin predicted that further
examination of fossils would demonstrate slow gradual change in living
organisms. Paleontologists have since found the abrupt appearance of
new organisms followed by long periods of static existence before
abrupt distinction.
The pattern of life as portrayed by the fossil record prompted Nobel
Prize-winning scientist, Francis Crick (he co-discovered DNA), to
suggest that space aliens must have visited earth at different times
bringing new species. Even the guy who discovered DNA has doubts about
evolution!
(Crick is actually an interesting fellow. He signed the "Resolution in
Scientific Freedom" with 49 other scientists noting that left-wing
institutions are censuring and punishing some scientists for
politically incorrect research.)
In Darwin's time it was also believed that cells were made of simple
vitalistic goo that contained life. Molecular biology has since
revealed that even the most primitive organisms contain amazingly
complex, interdependent parts. Micheal Behe, a professor of biological
sciences at Lehigh University, has adduced the concept of irreducible
complexity that challenges the logic of natural selection driving the
creation of complicated mechanisms with multiple independent parts.
(How can a sophisticated structure like a wing develop piecemeal if its
only functions in its completed form?)
My personal intellectual journey with Darwinism began at the University
of Georgia as an undergraduate. I majored in microbiology (graduating
1st in my class of roughly 5,000 students in 1991) and did non-human
genetic cloning research. I was overwhelmed with the diversity of life
and the power of genetics. In fact, I came to understand that genes
really matter. At the same time, I didn't buy the weak little theory
of survival of the fittest creating life.
I saw intraspecies change like bacterial anti-biotic resistance
(microevolution) but I needed missing-link evidence (macroevolution).
No one could give it to me.
I sincerely resented my professors conflating my skepticism in
Darwinism with irrational anti-intellectualism. I loved science and
truly respected the power of DNA. I just didn't think they had proven
how life was created.
I began reading everything I could get my hands on about evolution. I
put aside my biology textbooks that presented evolution as a
universally accepted law and started devouring the primary writings of
the modern-day evolution experts. It was at this point that I realized
that millions of students were being taught bad science for religious
and political reasons.
I also learned that a potentially internecine civil war was raging
within the Darwinian Nation.
On one side were the strict constructionists led by Richard Dawkins of
Oxford University in England. Dawkins was more like a religious zealot
than a political ideologue. He had long since accepted the fundamental
primacy of survival of the fittest, and was applying its logical
corollaries to human behavior.
On the other side were left wing ideologues led primarily by the
brilliant but ruthless Stephen Jay Gould. Gould, a self proclaimed
Marxist, loved the metaphysical liberation and culturally transforming
power of Darwinism. He despised, however, "the universal acid of
natural selection ... reducing human cultural change to the Darwinian
algorithm."
Basically, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
Remember, leftists like Gould require a worldview where human behavior
is 100% culturally conditioned; and here was Dawkins stating that
culture itself was an extension of human genes. (At this point I should
note that Dawkins is not a right winger, and received the Humanist of
the Year Award in 1996)
Gould viciously attacked the "ultra-Darwinists."
In a perfidious stab in the back to those committed to keeping "the
divine foot out of the door" (to borrow from another left-wing
ideologue, Richard C. Lewontin) Gould proclaimed, "Darwin is dead!" He
went on to attack the inadequacy of natural selection to explain the
complexity of life. He also cogently argued that the fossil evidence
did not support slow gradual change.
He proposed a new theory of (macro)evolution that he called punctuated
equilibrium. Basically, he suggested that (macro)evolution must have
occurred in quick spurts not captured by the fossil record. In
addition, he attempted to down play the importance of survival of the
fittest. Using his talented literary skills, he painted the world of
biological change as a non-threatening nebulous impression. He
fashioned himself an "evolutionary pluralist."
Now what was a confused young student to do?
I knew Darwin had stated that any reliance on macro mutations (or
saltations as he called them) would cause him to reject his theory of
evolution because it is not plausible; and here was Gould asking me to
accept (macro)evolution based on some unknown rapid genetic change,
basically a macro mutation. (Phillip Johnson has argued that punctuated
equilibrium is a euphemism for miracle)
I also didn't trust Gould. His primary concern seemed to be
maintaining the leftist moral code of life rather than the scientific
understanding of life.
I also couldn't buy Dawkin's historical narrative of life. The
power of Darwinism rested in its claim to a plausible mechanism (which
Gould destroyed) and its claim to a process without intentionallity.
Dawkins was writing about "selfish genes." How could the substrate of
evolution (DNA) be selfish and at the same time be without intention?
In addition, I was learning about other mechanisms of genetic
inheritance called genomic imprinting. Without going into detail, the
evolutionists were touting this phenomenon as a genetic "battle of the
sexes." Again, they were asking me to accept Darwinism because DNA
changed without purpose while simultaneously rejoicing that female DNA
held a grudge against male DNA (I hope to fully describe the
inconsistencies in logic of genomic imprinting and natural selection in
another setting).
Basically, I came to realize that Dawkins and Gould were not the
sophisticated atheists they wanted to be. They actually had faith in a
god - the DNA molecule. They seemed to believe that it was
omnipotent. To Dawkins it was a selfish god. To Gould it was an
egalitarian god.
Personally, I decided to pass on worshipping the double helix. No, sir,
I decided to keep the Christian faith of my ancestors.
But maybe it wasn't actually free will that brought me to my
decision. Maybe it was determined by the genes God gave me.
John R. Morgan, MD, is a practicing physician in Atlanta.
.
|
|
| User: "Shark school missionaries" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 05:51:17 PM |
|
|
"words of troll" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> suddenly spluttered:
I laud his efforts but in a way it is a sad commentary on our society.
What's sad about your society is that its education system turns out
so many shitheads at the end of it who will still buy God. Cf every
other developed country in the world.
------------------------------------------------
Conflict over the exact will/purpose/nature of God cannot ever be
resolved, since there are no facts to go on.
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
05 Nov 2005 06:58:39 PM |
|
|
What's sad about your society is that its education system turns out
so many shitheads at the end of it who will still buy God.
Good choice of words. Indeed the idiots actually *buy* the lies about
the alleged god or creator or lord or whatever. They go to churches
where they donate money to support preaching of the lies.
I'm in the USA, and I have to suffer these idiots all around me, making
idiotic remarks at me whenever they choose. I wish I could find some
intelligent non-religious people to hang around with.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
02 Nov 2005 06:27:34 PM |
|
|
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote in
news:1130943113.555419.157570@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/morgan5.html
My Life After Darwin
by John R Morgan, MD
Like most people, I never really bought the idea that life just
spontaneously developed out of nowhere, and then humans came from fish
or whatever.
It just didn't make sense.
A man named William Dembski with a PhD in mathematics from the
University of Chicago and a PhD in philosophy from the University of
Illinois has developed one good explanation why I always felt this way.
Let's say that you go to see the carving of Confederate heroes on
Stone Mountain right outside of Atlanta. Even though you didn't
actually see anyone perform the carving, you can infer that a designer
made the images. Now if you go to the back of the mountain and see
various amorphous shapes (although they are statistically as improbable
as the carving), you assume that they were randomly formed by erosion.
I know what you are thinking. This is basic common sense.
Unfortunately, however, we live in a time where common sense must be
justified; hence, Dembski is creating mathematical models to test the
validity of inferring design from something that is improbable and
specific. He hopes to prove that life falls into the category of
intelligent design.
I laud his efforts but in a way it is a sad commentary on our society.
Another man, Berkley law professor Phillip Johnson, has criticized the
intellectual leaps of faith necessary to accept evolution as a
life-creating force (leaps that I was never convinced to take). Johnson
argues that Darwinism has ceased to be a scientific theory and is now a
tautology that conveniently explains everything in nature. Although
Darwin himself operated within the context of the scientific method by
giving examples of empirical observations that would refute his
hypothesis, modern-day evolutionists entertain no such claims. Their
position is derived from a presupposed metaphysical belief that God
cannot exist.
As Johnson points out, in 1859 when Darwin wrote The Origin of Species
(actually entitled The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection;
or, the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life), the
fossil record was relatively incomplete. Darwin predicted that further
examination of fossils would demonstrate slow gradual change in living
organisms. Paleontologists have since found the abrupt appearance of
new organisms followed by long periods of static existence before
abrupt distinction.
The pattern of life as portrayed by the fossil record prompted Nobel
Prize-winning scientist, Francis Crick (he co-discovered DNA), to
suggest that space aliens must have visited earth at different times
bringing new species. Even the guy who discovered DNA has doubts about
evolution!
(Crick is actually an interesting fellow. He signed the "Resolution in
Scientific Freedom" with 49 other scientists noting that left-wing
institutions are censuring and punishing some scientists for
politically incorrect research.)
In Darwin's time it was also believed that cells were made of simple
vitalistic goo that contained life. Molecular biology has since
revealed that even the most primitive organisms contain amazingly
complex, interdependent parts. Micheal Behe, a professor of biological
sciences at Lehigh University, has adduced the concept of irreducible
complexity that challenges the logic of natural selection driving the
creation of complicated mechanisms with multiple independent parts.
(How can a sophisticated structure like a wing develop piecemeal if its
only functions in its completed form?)
My personal intellectual journey with Darwinism began at the University
of Georgia as an undergraduate. I majored in microbiology (graduating
1st in my class of roughly 5,000 students in 1991) and did non-human
genetic cloning research. I was overwhelmed with the diversity of life
and the power of genetics. In fact, I came to understand that genes
really matter. At the same time, I didn't buy the weak little theory
of survival of the fittest creating life.
I saw intraspecies change like bacterial anti-biotic resistance
(microevolution) but I needed missing-link evidence (macroevolution).
No one could give it to me.
I sincerely resented my professors conflating my skepticism in
Darwinism with irrational anti-intellectualism. I loved science and
truly respected the power of DNA. I just didn't think they had proven
how life was created.
I began reading everything I could get my hands on about evolution. I
put aside my biology textbooks that presented evolution as a
universally accepted law and started devouring the primary writings of
the modern-day evolution experts. It was at this point that I realized
that millions of students were being taught bad science for religious
and political reasons.
I also learned that a potentially internecine civil war was raging
within the Darwinian Nation.
On one side were the strict constructionists led by Richard Dawkins of
Oxford University in England. Dawkins was more like a religious zealot
than a political ideologue. He had long since accepted the fundamental
primacy of survival of the fittest, and was applying its logical
corollaries to human behavior.
On the other side were left wing ideologues led primarily by the
brilliant but ruthless Stephen Jay Gould. Gould, a self proclaimed
Marxist, loved the metaphysical liberation and culturally transforming
power of Darwinism. He despised, however, "the universal acid of
natural selection ... reducing human cultural change to the Darwinian
algorithm."
Basically, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
Remember, leftists like Gould require a worldview where human behavior
is 100% culturally conditioned; and here was Dawkins stating that
culture itself was an extension of human genes. (At this point I should
note that Dawkins is not a right winger, and received the Humanist of
the Year Award in 1996)
Gould viciously attacked the "ultra-Darwinists."
In a perfidious stab in the back to those committed to keeping "the
divine foot out of the door" (to borrow from another left-wing
ideologue, Richard C. Lewontin) Gould proclaimed, "Darwin is dead!" He
went on to attack the inadequacy of natural selection to explain the
complexity of life. He also cogently argued that the fossil evidence
did not support slow gradual change.
He proposed a new theory of (macro)evolution that he called punctuated
equilibrium. Basically, he suggested that (macro)evolution must have
occurred in quick spurts not captured by the fossil record. In
addition, he attempted to down play the importance of survival of the
fittest. Using his talented literary skills, he painted the world of
biological change as a non-threatening nebulous impression. He
fashioned himself an "evolutionary pluralist."
Now what was a confused young student to do?
I knew Darwin had stated that any reliance on macro mutations (or
saltations as he called them) would cause him to reject his theory of
evolution because it is not plausible; and here was Gould asking me to
accept (macro)evolution based on some unknown rapid genetic change,
basically a macro mutation. (Phillip Johnson has argued that punctuated
equilibrium is a euphemism for miracle)
I also didn't trust Gould. His primary concern seemed to be
maintaining the leftist moral code of life rather than the scientific
understanding of life.
I also couldn't buy Dawkin's historical narrative of life. The
power of Darwinism rested in its claim to a plausible mechanism (which
Gould destroyed) and its claim to a process without intentionallity.
Dawkins was writing about "selfish genes." How could the substrate of
evolution (DNA) be selfish and at the same time be without intention?
In addition, I was learning about other mechanisms of genetic
inheritance called genomic imprinting. Without going into detail, the
evolutionists were touting this phenomenon as a genetic "battle of the
sexes." Again, they were asking me to accept Darwinism because DNA
changed without purpose while simultaneously rejoicing that female DNA
held a grudge against male DNA (I hope to fully describe the
inconsistencies in logic of genomic imprinting and natural selection in
another setting).
Basically, I came to realize that Dawkins and Gould were not the
sophisticated atheists they wanted to be. They actually had faith in a
god - the DNA molecule. They seemed to believe that it was
omnipotent. To Dawkins it was a selfish god. To Gould it was an
egalitarian god.
Personally, I decided to pass on worshipping the double helix. No, sir,
I decided to keep the Christian faith of my ancestors.
But maybe it wasn't actually free will that brought me to my
decision. Maybe it was determined by the genes God gave me.
John R. Morgan, MD, is a practicing physician in Atlanta.
With logic like that, I would not want this man diagnosing me. He'd
probably conclude that demons caused my aches and pains and call for a
priest. Now, I'm perfectly happy having a priest around (in fact I am
one), but I'd rather my doctor use real logic instead of sophistry in his
diagnosis. Otherwise, the correlation between his diagnosis and the
actual cause of my aches and pains is apt to be somewhat random.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
02 Nov 2005 06:31:58 PM |
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
With logic like that, I would not want this man diagnosing me. He'd
probably conclude that demons caused my aches and pains and call for a
priest. Now, I'm perfectly happy having a priest around (in fact I am
one), but I'd rather my doctor use real logic instead of sophistry in his
diagnosis. Otherwise, the correlation between his diagnosis and the
actual cause of my aches and pains is apt to be somewhat random.
--
Dave Oldridge+
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
Jim
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
02 Nov 2005 07:26:28 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
With logic like that, I would not want this man diagnosing me. He'd
probably conclude that demons caused my aches and pains and call for
a priest. Now, I'm perfectly happy having a priest around (in fact I
am one), but I'd rather my doctor use real logic instead of sophistry
in his diagnosis. Otherwise, the correlation between his diagnosis
and the actual cause of my aches and pains is apt to be somewhat
random.
--
Dave Oldridge+
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Milan" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 01:48:44 AM |
|
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"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9702746252A0Ddoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
With logic like that, I would not want this man diagnosing me. He'd
probably conclude that demons caused my aches and pains and call for
a priest. Now, I'm perfectly happy having a priest around (in fact I
am one), but I'd rather my doctor use real logic instead of sophistry
in his diagnosis. Otherwise, the correlation between his diagnosis
and the actual cause of my aches and pains is apt to be somewhat
random.
--
Dave Oldridge+
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science.
Theology, as has been pointed out before, is intellectual tennis without a
net. Anything goes.
regards
Milan
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 03:51:37 PM |
|
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"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3st8q0Fpl932U1@individual.net:
"Dave Oldridge" <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Xns9702746252A0Ddoldridgsprintca@24.71.223.159...
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
With logic like that, I would not want this man diagnosing me.
He'd probably conclude that demons caused my aches and pains and
call for a priest. Now, I'm perfectly happy having a priest
around (in fact I am one), but I'd rather my doctor use real logic
instead of sophistry in his diagnosis. Otherwise, the correlation
between his diagnosis and the actual cause of my aches and pains
is apt to be somewhat random.
--
Dave Oldridge+
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as
logical as good science.
Theology, as has been pointed out before, is intellectual tennis
without a net. Anything goes.
Pretty much. The only way you can actually test anything is with actual
theurgy, which most practitioners of theological rhetoric claim to
despise.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
02 Nov 2005 07:45:51 PM |
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Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<...>
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
And from not allowing the logical consequences of (certain of) those
axioms to be codified in law.
--- Jim07D5
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 03:49:37 PM |
|
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Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:kk5im1lp23pttndsp6s45t46evknu8h355@4ax.com:
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<...>
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
And from not allowing the logical consequences of (certain of) those
axioms to be codified in law.
Law and theology should be orthogonal. They never will be fully, though,
since those who make the law will always have SOME theological opinions,
even if merely the opinion that theological opinions are worthless.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 04:02:07 PM |
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Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:kk5im1lp23pttndsp6s45t46evknu8h355@4ax.com:
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<...>
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
And from not allowing the logical consequences of (certain of) those
axioms to be codified in law.
Law and theology should be orthogonal. They never will be fully, though,
since those who make the law will always have SOME theological opinions,
even if merely the opinion that theological opinions are worthless.
Yes, but IMO not even those precepts that are universal to all of the
religions of the people of a state should be codified in law if the
only reason for their codification is theological.
--- Jim07D5
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:46:47 AM |
|
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Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:irckm1djj3lnje4k0qodsrua5shhdgpsvi@4ax.com:
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:kk5im1lp23pttndsp6s45t46evknu8h355@4ax.com:
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<...>
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as
logical as good science. It does, however, stem from different
underlying axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing
those axioms not from twisting the logic that flows from them.
And from not allowing the logical consequences of (certain of) those
axioms to be codified in law.
Law and theology should be orthogonal. They never will be fully,
though, since those who make the law will always have SOME theological
opinions, even if merely the opinion that theological opinions are
worthless.
Yes, but IMO not even those precepts that are universal to all of the
religions of the people of a state should be codified in law if the
only reason for their codification is theological.
Agreed. Laws that serve no secular purpose are actually dangerous to the
public welfare.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 04:59:40 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:49:37 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in
news:kk5im1lp23pttndsp6s45t46evknu8h355@4ax.com:
Dave Oldridge <doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> said:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<...>
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
And from not allowing the logical consequences of (certain of) those
axioms to be codified in law.
Law and theology should be orthogonal. They never will be fully, though,
since those who make the law will always have SOME theological opinions,
even if merely the opinion that theological opinions are worthless.
The fact. Because it is outside the religion.
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
02 Nov 2005 11:06:07 PM |
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|
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
Jim
.
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 12:00:19 AM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1130972767.641179.126590@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dave Oldridge wrote:
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
Or, to put it another way, 'theology' is essentially a game without rules,
played with cards that have no faces. Once you start playing, you can *do
anything you choose*, *from any starting-point you choose* -- as long as
your ''logic' finally leads to *ultimate conclusions* that meet the
following conditions: (i) that there is a 'god' of some kind; and that while
this 'god' may be 'inscrutable', it (ii) can't be 'bad', and (iii) mustn't
have any 'real world' property that would make it disprovable. Apart from
those restrictions, you can have *all the fun you want*, for *as many
fucking centuries as you want*...
Katt.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 03:50:28 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:1130972767.641179.126590
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130956318.667853.4040@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
yeah, sophistry belongs in your line of work, not his
You might like to think so, but the fact is good theology is as
logical
as good science. It does, however, stem from different underlying
axioms. Real freedom of religion comes from disputing those axioms
not
from twisting the logic that flows from them.
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 04:01:12 PM |
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:1130972767.641179.126590
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or not
they are true.
Jim
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:48:12 AM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131033671.986861.191170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130972767.641179.126590 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or not
they are true.
Not necessarily. We have no way of SHOWING that one is true (or false),
largely because of the subjective nature of theological revelation.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:51:36 AM |
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131033671.986861.191170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130972767.641179.126590 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or not
they are true.
Not necessarily. We have no way of SHOWING that one is true (or false),
largely because of the subjective nature of theological revelation.
Thus we have no way of KNOWING whether or not one is true or false.
If you can't show me, then I can't know it. And I'll just have to
assume it's probably false, especially if it's something that came from
a revelation!
Jim
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:17:43 PM |
|
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:1131083496.235576.50000
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131033671.986861.191170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130972767.641179.126590 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or not
they are true.
Not necessarily. We have no way of SHOWING that one is true (or
false),
largely because of the subjective nature of theological revelation.
Thus we have no way of KNOWING whether or not one is true or false.
If you can't show me, then I can't know it. And I'll just have to
assume it's probably false, especially if it's something that came from
a revelation!
Shrug. Suit yourself. There is really only one way to check a
revelation. That's to get one of your own. This, if you don't follow
the rules for getting them, is as unlikely as a chemical reaction between
sulphuric acid and calcium carbonate producing sodium chloride.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 07:42:44 PM |
|
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131083496.235576.50000 @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131033671.986861.191170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130972767.641179.126590 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter
how sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms
are necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or
not they are true.
Not necessarily. We have no way of SHOWING that one is true (or
false),
largely because of the subjective nature of theological
revelation.
Thus we have no way of KNOWING whether or not one is true or false.
If you can't show me, then I can't know it. And I'll just have to
assume it's probably false, especially if it's something that came
from a revelation!
Shrug. Suit yourself. There is really only one way to check a
revelation. That's to get one of your own. This, if you don't
follow the rules for getting them, is as unlikely as a chemical
reaction between sulphuric acid and calcium carbonate producing
sodium chloride.
There are lots of ways to check relevation.
Is it consistant?
Jesus is said to have ascended to heaven from
a room in Jerusalem (Mark) but in Matthew he
does not and his apostles go to Galilee. No
ascension to heaven is mentioned at all.
How many contradictions do YOU need to abandon
a claimed relevation?
The bible has hundreds of these!
Jesus repeatedly tells his followers
that they will work great miracles, move mountains,
work bigger miracles than Jesus, Mark 11;20, John 14:12-4.
How many failed promises do you need?
All the bible claims god exists, but I can show
you that the omni-everything, creator god claimed
by christianity, Islam and Judaism cannot exist.
How much debunking do you need anyway?
Jesus prophecied he'd preside over judgment
day itself 1930 years ago, its obvious that
did not happen.
How many false prohecies of this magnitude
do you need?
Much of the bible has been debunked by archaeology,
there was no Moses, no Joshua, no bloody genocide
in Canaan. No Moses on the mount.
How many facts do you need?
Its a bust! How much hard evidence do you need
anyway to abandom a stupid series of myths?
WHAT DOES IT TAKE!
Or are you one of these gits who will never
abandon a myth you imbibed at your mother's
knee no matter how obviously false it is?
No matter how much damage this damned superstition
is wreaking with its militant anti-inetllectual
campaign against logic, tructh, facts and science?
Despite 1600 years of a truely bad history showin
this damned superstition has always left a trail
of blood and ignorance behind it?
What does it take to turn christian into a thinking,
rational, logical, educated human being anyway?
--
The official spokesman of the Foxes said
today that investigation into what happened
to the henhouse may be needed.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
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| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
05 Nov 2005 04:40:09 AM |
|
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wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in news:11mndhbs6u7pd48
@corp.supernews.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131083496.235576.50000 @g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1131033671.986861.191170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:1130972767.641179.126590 @g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter
how sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms
are necessarily untrue.
No, I'm not assuming that they are untrue.
I'm just pointing out that we have no way of knowing whether or
not they are true.
Not necessarily. We have no way of SHOWING that one is true (or
false),
largely because of the subjective nature of theological
revelation.
Thus we have no way of KNOWING whether or not one is true or false.
If you can't show me, then I can't know it. And I'll just have to
assume it's probably false, especially if it's something that came
from a revelation!
Shrug. Suit yourself. There is really only one way to check a
revelation. That's to get one of your own. This, if you don't
follow the rules for getting them, is as unlikely as a chemical
reaction between sulphuric acid and calcium carbonate producing
sodium chloride.
There are lots of ways to check relevation.
Is it consistant?
Jesus is said to have ascended to heaven from
a room in Jerusalem (Mark) but in Matthew he
does not and his apostles go to Galilee. No
ascension to heaven is mentioned at all.
How many contradictions do YOU need to abandon
a claimed relevation?
The bible has hundreds of these!
Jesus repeatedly tells his followers
that they will work great miracles, move mountains,
work bigger miracles than Jesus, Mark 11;20, John 14:12-4.
How many failed promises do you need?
All the bible claims god exists, but I can show
you that the omni-everything, creator god claimed
by christianity, Islam and Judaism cannot exist.
How much debunking do you need anyway?
Jesus prophecied he'd preside over judgment
day itself 1930 years ago, its obvious that
did not happen.
How many false prohecies of this magnitude
do you need?
Much of the bible has been debunked by archaeology,
there was no Moses, no Joshua, no bloody genocide
in Canaan. No Moses on the mount.
How many facts do you need?
Its a bust! How much hard evidence do you need
anyway to abandom a stupid series of myths?
WHAT DOES IT TAKE!
Or are you one of these gits who will never
abandon a myth you imbibed at your mother's
knee no matter how obviously false it is?
No matter how much damage this damned superstition
is wreaking with its militant anti-inetllectual
campaign against logic, tructh, facts and science?
Despite 1600 years of a truely bad history showin
this damned superstition has always left a trail
of blood and ignorance behind it?
What does it take to turn christian into a thinking,
rational, logical, educated human being anyway?
It doesn't take anything at all. But then people will be people and only
a small percentage of people of any religion ever actually think
rationally much. Fundy atheists are no exception to that.
Ignorance comes and goes with the times. Every religion or philosophy
we've ever invented has been blamed for it and used as an excuse for it.
But the blood and gore does not come from following the golden rule. It
comes from NOT following it.
And it doesn't matter if you follow it because Jesus said it was a good
idea or whether you do so because reason and objective observation tell
you it's a good thing.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 06:20:07 PM |
|
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Dave Oldridge wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in news:1131083496.235576.50000
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
If you can't show me, then I can't know it. And I'll just have to
assume it's probably false, especially if it's something that came from
a revelation!
Shrug. Suit yourself. There is really only one way to check a
revelation. That's to get one of your own. This, if you don't follow
the rules for getting them, is as unlikely as a chemical reaction between
sulphuric acid and calcium carbonate producing sodium chloride.
Since I have some idea of how the "revelation" game works, I have no
desire to chase after them....
I mean, look at them damn hippies
Jim
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
03 Nov 2005 05:00:24 PM |
|
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology it
is.
.
|
|
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:48:58 AM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:5ggkm1pvpq1q14qqc0an8kd6gd9l7mbvi8@4ax.com:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology it
is.
This is still an assumption.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 06:19:12 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:48:58 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:5ggkm1pvpq1q14qqc0an8kd6gd9l7mbvi8@4ax.com:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how sound
the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology it
is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
.
|
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:18:29 PM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:v5vlm1hp367pd2jgqj2kqbqnu0tvh11t7l@4ax.com:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:48:58 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:5ggkm1pvpq1q14qqc0an8kd6gd9l7mbvi8@4ax.com:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology
it is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
I know the difference, IDIOT.
Apparently it has eluded YOU.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
|
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
04 Nov 2005 05:37:21 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:18:29 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:v5vlm1hp367pd2jgqj2kqbqnu0tvh11t7l@4ax.com:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:48:58 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:5ggkm1pvpq1q14qqc0an8kd6gd9l7mbvi8@4ax.com:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology
it is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
I know the difference, IDIOT.
Apparently it has eluded YOU.
No, moron. Your theology is only relevant to you and your
co-religionists from the same denomination. I make no assumptions
about your theology - it's merely part of your religion.
All your religion is to people outside it, is (at best) somebody
else's religion, and its deity merely the god-belief of that religion
(and what does that make its theology, moron?). And at worst something
that turns people into sciopaths who imagine their doctrines, theology
etc apply to everybody else as well.
.
|
|
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
05 Nov 2005 04:41:39 AM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:jo6nm1lvs5ld6ha6lvgprttee5973gj8pu@4ax.com:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:18:29 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:v5vlm1hp367pd2jgqj2kqbqnu0tvh11t7l@4ax.com:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 05:48:58 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:5ggkm1pvpq1q14qqc0an8kd6gd9l7mbvi8@4ax.com:
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 15:50:28 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
Perhaps, but theology doesn't interest me, because no matter how
sound the logic in the middle, GIGO.
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology
it is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
I know the difference, IDIOT.
Apparently it has eluded YOU.
No, moron. Your theology is only relevant to you and your
co-religionists from the same denomination. I make no assumptions
about your theology - it's merely part of your religion.
Now you're lying to me. Your assumptions shone right through.
All your religion is to people outside it, is (at best) somebody
else's religion, and its deity merely the god-belief of that religion
(and what does that make its theology, moron?). And at worst something
that turns people into sciopaths who imagine their doctrines, theology
etc apply to everybody else as well.
Well, to the extent that the ideas are correct descriptions of human
nature, they do, whether you LIKE it or not.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
|
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
05 Nov 2005 04:59:06 AM |
|
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 04:41:39 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms are
necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose theology
it is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
I know the difference, IDIOT.
Apparently it has eluded YOU.
No, moron. Your theology is only relevant to you and your
co-religionists from the same denomination. I make no assumptions
about your theology - it's merely part of your religion.
Now you're lying to me. Your assumptions shone right through.
No, liar. I wouldn't give aflying ***** about somebody else's
theological assumptionsif they had the common sense and courtesy to
keep them within their religion.
But you're incapable of that, aren't you?
So stop lying.
All your religion is to people outside it, is (at best) somebody
else's religion, and its deity merely the god-belief of that religion
(and what does that make its theology, moron?). And at worst something
that turns people into sciopaths who imagine their doctrines, theology
etc apply to everybody else as well.
Well, to the extent that the ideas are correct descriptions of human
nature, they do, whether you LIKE it or not.
Only in the deluded imagination of religionists who think their
doctrines reflect reality.
Your doctrines only apply to your co-religionists.
.
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| User: "Dave Oldridge" |
|
| Title: Re: Life After Darwin |
05 Nov 2005 08:02:46 PM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:pseom1tlk7cacmvop372q94p29a8h2pllu@4ax.com:
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 04:41:39 GMT, Dave Oldridge
<doldridg@leavethisoutshaw.ca> wrote:
You're ASSUMING (an axiom, if you like) that theological axioms
are necessarily untrue.
No. WORTHLESS in the real world outside the religion whose
theology it is.
This is still an assumption.
No, moron, a fact. Learn the difference.
I know the difference, IDIOT.
Apparently it has eluded YOU.
No, moron. Your theology is only relevant to you and your
co-religionists from the same denomination. I make no assumptions
about your theology - it's merely part of your religion.
Now you're lying to me. Your assumptions shone right through.
No, liar. I wouldn't give aflying ***** about somebody else's
theological assumptionsif they had the common sense and courtesy to
keep them within their religion.
And I wouldn't give a fig about your theological assumptions if you
really didn't feel obligated to comment about mine. So there you have
it. Like all fundies you can't help yourself. You MUST lie about your
religion. Your religion requires it.
But you're incapable of that, aren't you?
So stop lying.
I haven't lied to you. But I have found out that you are an incredibly
arrogant liar yourself.
All your religion is to people outside it, is (at best) somebody
else's religion, and its deity merely the god-belief of that
religion (and what does that make its theology, moron?). And at
worst something that turns people into sciopaths who imagine their
doctrines, theology etc apply to everybody else as well.
Well, to the extent that the ideas are correct descriptions of human
nature, they do, whether you LIKE it or not.
Only in the deluded imagination of religionists who think their
doctrines reflect reality.
No, IN REALITY. Which is something you cannot reflect because your
bigotry gets in the way of objectivity.
Your doctrines only apply to your co-religionists.
REALITY applies to all, whether YOU like it or not.
Enjoy your little trip down fantasy lane. If it makes you feel better,
it's probably not a total waste of time.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
.
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