| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Luke" |
| Date: |
06 Sep 2007 12:56:13 AM |
| Object: |
Logic |
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
a steady base, alas these foundations have become weaker at an exponential
rate over time. Your core argument must be as solid as a rock, and by that
we don't mean skill in apologetics, it means the argument is able to defend
itself. To me, this does not appear to be a very sound type of logic.
Now, we have similar scenarios for other religions, particularly Islam and
Judaism, as these have similar roots.
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
As soon as we are born, most of us cry. It's the cold after being in our
mother's womb and the stress on us of being born. We're sensing the world
and we haven't even opened our eyes yet. We may be using our instincts to
call for help and protection, but still that reaction has a logical root.
This one is "Everything we sense is real.", not necessarily real as it is
what you think it is (For example if you play a sound file of a cow mooing,
it doesn't mean that there is a cow nearby, but you could fool someone), but
importantly, it is something on which to base a reaction on. Trust in our
sensory organs is built in from the first second of life.
"Everything we sense is real" doesn't mean that we aren't trapped in a
Matrix-type situation (and we probably are not), but if we were, everything
we would sense is still something, whether simulated or not and we do not
necessarily need to understand it to do something with that information.
Of course, this is true in the animal world also, which even though they
aren't as intelligent as us, and like babies also, are all atheists. Yes, if
you touch the atheist caterpillar, it will attempt to defend itself. The
atheist dog will bark at the television. If an atheist cat spots an atheist
mouse, it will chase it.
We're generally open-minded people, but I think this helps explain the
difference for some between "Believing that there is no God" and "Not
believing in God".
Unfortunately for young children, there is an instinct which explains how
easy it is for them to be entered into religion, and that is the "Trust your
peers" instinct. Children often believe what is told to them by adults as
truth, basically children are gulliable, because they want to learn, but are
unsure as to where to learn from, ie why we tell them to not talk to
strangers. This gets switched off when puberty kicks in, so maybe all
children should receive a secular upbringing until the age of 13 by law.
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 08:41:28 AM |
|
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"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
.
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| User: "Luke" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 12:40:22 PM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 12:59:28 PM |
|
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On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 11:17:09 AM |
|
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removethis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 11:41:36 AM |
|
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removethis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
.
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| User: "Hollis Brown" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 12:45:38 PM |
|
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On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
HB
.
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| User: "Rob Brown" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 12:54:56 PM |
|
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"Hollis Brown" <AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190310338.633154.278060@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way,
that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything
that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
HB
Only on the far side of town. Change your name and move.
Rob Brown
.
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| User: "Hollis Brown" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 01:56:19 PM |
|
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On Sep 20, 11:54 am, "Rob Brown" <bbr...@csmflorida.com> wrote:
"Hollis Brown" <AT_Tapp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190310338.633154.278060@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way,
that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything
that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
HB
Only on the far side of town. Change your name and move.
Well, I am thinking about moving. This shack is just too big, now
that I'm single again.
No offer to put me up on your couch, cousin Rob? Even iffen I promise
to leave the shotgun behind?
HB
.
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| User: "Rob Brown" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 02:15:26 PM |
|
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"Hollis Brown" <AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190314579.643210.194250@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 20, 11:54 am, "Rob Brown" <bbr...@csmflorida.com> wrote:
"Hollis Brown" <AT_Tapp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190310338.633154.278060@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way,
that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything
that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
HB
Only on the far side of town. Change your name and move.
Well, I am thinking about moving. This shack is just too big, now
that I'm single again.
No offer to put me up on your couch, cousin Rob? Even iffen I promise
to leave the shotgun behind?
HB
You and Bob are welcome any time. Who could turn down a master lyricist and
his lyric? You have both been in my mind and record collection for years.
Rob Brown
.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 01:02:24 PM |
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Hollis Brown wrote:
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
And your evidence for this claim is...?
--
Uncle Vic
#2011
.
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| User: "Hollis Brown" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 02:14:49 PM |
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On Sep 20, 12:02 pm, Uncle Vic <addr...@withheld.com> wrote:
Hollis Brown wrote:
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
And your evidence for this claim is...?
"Barbara Stanwyck makes me nervous."
HB
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
28 Sep 2007 12:31:29 PM |
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
When they haven't any fabric connecting the skeletal structure.
HB
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
29 Sep 2007 01:19:21 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:31:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <kfeqf3dme7acb5cfnnolsfae43ddv4oh53@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
What point did you have? Your comment does not seem to have any
relevance to this thread, or anything else that I can think of. I have
opposed ignorant bigotry in this newsgroup no matter whether or not I
agree with the target of the bigotry. I oppose bad arguments against
either evolution or creationism, I oppose ignorant and/or bad
arguments against Christianity, Judaism, atheism, etc. If you find me
doing otherwise, if you find me misusing the Razor (or any other such
tool) then be sure to point it out. But random seemingly irrelevant
out of context comments such as your do not have a point and do not
have much meaning.
So, again, what point?
Purple umbrellas keep the rain off just as well as orange umbrellas
do.
When they haven't any fabric connecting the skeletal structure.
HB
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
13 Oct 2007 06:11:09 PM |
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:19:21 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:31:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <kfeqf3dme7acb5cfnnolsfae43ddv4oh53@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
What point did you have? Your comment does not seem to have any
relevance to this thread, or anything else that I can think of. I have
opposed ignorant bigotry in this newsgroup no matter whether or not I
agree with the target of the bigotry. I oppose bad arguments against
either evolution or creationism, I oppose ignorant and/or bad
arguments against Christianity, Judaism, atheism, etc. If you find me
doing otherwise, if you find me misusing the Razor (or any other such
tool) then be sure to point it out. But random seemingly irrelevant
out of context comments such as your do not have a point and do not
have much meaning.
So, again, what point?
Fair enough. I stated: "Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from
examination." Such was in reply to your comment: "Which is not a
reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
The sequencing therefore is:
"Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
"Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination."
I was pointing out you haven't utilized those tools against your
religion. Such is your perogitive, but I found it a bit amusing.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
13 Oct 2007 08:10:29 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:11:09 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <3aj2h3pi6dnnrrnqv4m2gdc809enreu6b6@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:19:21 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:31:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <kfeqf3dme7acb5cfnnolsfae43ddv4oh53@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
What point did you have? Your comment does not seem to have any
relevance to this thread, or anything else that I can think of. I have
opposed ignorant bigotry in this newsgroup no matter whether or not I
agree with the target of the bigotry. I oppose bad arguments against
either evolution or creationism, I oppose ignorant and/or bad
arguments against Christianity, Judaism, atheism, etc. If you find me
doing otherwise, if you find me misusing the Razor (or any other such
tool) then be sure to point it out. But random seemingly irrelevant
out of context comments such as your do not have a point and do not
have much meaning.
So, again, what point?
Fair enough. I stated: "Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from
examination." Such was in reply to your comment: "Which is not a
reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
The sequencing therefore is:
"Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
"Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination."
I was pointing out you haven't utilized those tools against your
religion. Such is your perogitive, but I found it a bit amusing.
Ok, now that you have made the accusation directly I ask you to defend
it with some evidence of some sort. Please give one example of my not
applying the Razor where it should be applied. Just one supported
example is sufficient for an existence claim, so let's see it.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
|
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
25 Oct 2007 03:29:03 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:10:29 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:11:09 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <3aj2h3pi6dnnrrnqv4m2gdc809enreu6b6@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:19:21 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:31:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <kfeqf3dme7acb5cfnnolsfae43ddv4oh53@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
What point did you have? Your comment does not seem to have any
relevance to this thread, or anything else that I can think of. I have
opposed ignorant bigotry in this newsgroup no matter whether or not I
agree with the target of the bigotry. I oppose bad arguments against
either evolution or creationism, I oppose ignorant and/or bad
arguments against Christianity, Judaism, atheism, etc. If you find me
doing otherwise, if you find me misusing the Razor (or any other such
tool) then be sure to point it out. But random seemingly irrelevant
out of context comments such as your do not have a point and do not
have much meaning.
So, again, what point?
Fair enough. I stated: "Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from
examination." Such was in reply to your comment: "Which is not a
reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
The sequencing therefore is:
"Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
"Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination."
I was pointing out you haven't utilized those tools against your
religion. Such is your perogitive, but I found it a bit amusing.
Ok, now that you have made the accusation directly I ask you to defend
it with some evidence of some sort. Please give one example of my not
applying the Razor where it should be applied. Just one supported
example is sufficient for an existence claim, so let's see it.
You're a follower of the Judaic religion or whatever nomenclature you
care to call it. Q.E.D.. Such is your business as I've stated
several times before. I indicated it was something I found of minor
amusement. That is as far as it goes. [shrug]
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
25 Oct 2007 03:40:48 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:29:03 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <emu1i3pln56g268ak2am8637gl8h7p2os7@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:10:29 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:11:09 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <3aj2h3pi6dnnrrnqv4m2gdc809enreu6b6@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:19:21 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:31:29 -0700, in alt.atheism , stoney
<stoney@the.net> in <kfeqf3dme7acb5cfnnolsfae43ddv4oh53@4ax.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:45:38 -0700, Hollis Brown
<AT_Tappman@hotmail.com> wrote:
[piggy backing]
On Sep 20, 10:41 am, Matt Silberstein <matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removet...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <t...@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Do you have a point to make or is it random comment time?
Thank you, Matt, for supporting my point so nicely.
What point did you have? Your comment does not seem to have any
relevance to this thread, or anything else that I can think of. I have
opposed ignorant bigotry in this newsgroup no matter whether or not I
agree with the target of the bigotry. I oppose bad arguments against
either evolution or creationism, I oppose ignorant and/or bad
arguments against Christianity, Judaism, atheism, etc. If you find me
doing otherwise, if you find me misusing the Razor (or any other such
tool) then be sure to point it out. But random seemingly irrelevant
out of context comments such as your do not have a point and do not
have much meaning.
So, again, what point?
Fair enough. I stated: "Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from
examination." Such was in reply to your comment: "Which is not a
reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
The sequencing therefore is:
"Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor."
"Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination."
I was pointing out you haven't utilized those tools against your
religion. Such is your perogitive, but I found it a bit amusing.
Ok, now that you have made the accusation directly I ask you to defend
it with some evidence of some sort. Please give one example of my not
applying the Razor where it should be applied. Just one supported
example is sufficient for an existence claim, so let's see it.
You're a follower of the Judaic religion or whatever nomenclature you
care to call it.
I don't know of anyone who says that they are a follower of the Judaic
religion.
Q.E.D..
No, Stoney, you need some actual evidence, some actual examples. Not
handwaving, evidence. When have you seen me not appropriately apply
the Razor?
Such is your business as I've stated
several times before. I indicated it was something I found of minor
amusement. That is as far as it goes. [shrug]
So you have no evidence at all to back up your claim. I don't mind,
but I find that amusing.
BTW, and this is an aside, the Razor does not tell you a thing about
the existence of God. It is a tool of reasoning, not a statement about
the world.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 09:35:27 PM |
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|
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removethis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Especially when Matt uses Occam's Razor to support non-consensual
ritual infant genital mutilation...
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
20 Sep 2007 11:40:27 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:05:27 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:17:09 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:59:28 -0400, Matt Silberstein
<matts2removethis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:40:22 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <this@aint.me> wrote in message
news:46e00301$0$18909$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"Luke" <alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:fbo53q$2ls$1@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
It is not how I work.
Occam's Razor is a key part of the necessary logic.
Good. I like Occam's Razor. It rubbishes Creationism entirely.
Which is not a reason to like it. I do not oppose Creationism a
priori, I oppose it because of examination using tools such as the
Razor.
Judaism isn't exempt, by others, from examination.
Especially when Matt uses Occam's Razor to support non-consensual
ritual infant genital mutilation...
Michael has an interesting style. He makes stuff up about other
people, spreads his lies, and then hides behind a killfile. If he had
the courage to discuss the subject I would, but he does not.
Meanwhile, here is a story about actual genital mutilation:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/world/africa/20girls.html
"The men in this poor farming community were seething. A 13-year-old
girl was brought to a doctor’s office to have her clitoris removed, a
surgery considered necessary here to preserve chastity and honor."
By using the same term for removing the foreskin Michael trivializes
the brutality these girls suffer.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 10:48:13 AM |
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On Sep 5, 10:56 pm, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual".
Aren't those premises?
For a long time, this has been thought of
a steady base, alas these foundations have become weaker at an exponential
rate over time. Your core argument must be as solid as a rock, and by that
we don't mean skill in apologetics, it means the argument is able to defend
itself. To me, this does not appear to be a very sound type of logic.
Well, those two premises you mentioned have been found to be
unsupportable, it seems to me.
Now, we have similar scenarios for other religions, particularly Islam and
Judaism, as these have similar roots.
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the root of atheism is that
theists have no evidence for their premise that God exists. Atheism is
mostly a reactionary position. It's not "God cannot exist" as much as
it is "You have no evidence that God exists." That I also think god
cannot exist is a function of my feeble attempts at learning modern
physics, but atheism was a position long before there was modern
physics.
As soon as we are born, most of us cry. It's the cold after being in our
mother's womb and the stress on us of being born. We're sensing the world
and we haven't even opened our eyes yet. We may be using our instincts to
call for help and protection, but still that reaction has a logical root.
This one is "Everything we sense is real.", not necessarily real as it is
what you think it is (For example if you play a sound file of a cow mooing,
it doesn't mean that there is a cow nearby, but you could fool someone), but
importantly, it is something on which to base a reaction on. Trust in our
sensory organs is built in from the first second of life.
"Everything we sense is real" doesn't mean that we aren't trapped in a
Matrix-type situation (and we probably are not), but if we were, everything
we would sense is still something, whether simulated or not and we do not
necessarily need to understand it to do something with that information.
Of course, this is true in the animal world also, which even though they
aren't as intelligent as us, and like babies also, are all atheists. Yes, if
you touch the atheist caterpillar, it will attempt to defend itself. The
atheist dog will bark at the television. If an atheist cat spots an atheist
mouse, it will chase it.
We're generally open-minded people, but I think this helps explain the
difference for some between "Believing that there is no God" and "Not
believing in God".
I may be dense, but I really don't get how you reached this
conclusion.
Unfortunately for young children, there is an instinct which explains how
easy it is for them to be entered into religion, and that is the "Trust your
peers" instinct. Children often believe what is told to them by adults as
truth, basically children are gulliable, because they want to learn, but are
unsure as to where to learn from, ie why we tell them to not talk to
strangers. This gets switched off when puberty kicks in, so maybe all
children should receive a secular upbringing until the age of 13 by law.
I disagree, although I can hardly wait for the day when all people
choose to have a secular education (I'll have to live to be 1000, but
I'm working on it). If you want to make religion stronger just try to
force people not to worship.
.
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| User: "Codebreaker" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 03:32:41 PM |
|
|
On Sep 6, 1:56 am, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
Here is the Christians core argument:
God through Moses foretold the advent of the Messiah,
the one that is called Christ in the Greek parlance.
Jesus was found to fit the descriptions contained not
in the bible but in the Torah of Moses as reported by the
Acts of the Apostles. So Jesus being the Messiah that is to
say Christ, therefore God is real as Islam and Catholicism/Trinitarian
the two branches of Christianity cancelled out each other
in a perfect equillibrium which could not be the work
of Darwin or Evolution or the work of any other human being.
Since the balance is not brought out by any humane being
it must be God's work. God dOES exist.
***** YOU ALL DENIERS
a steady base, alas these foundations have become weaker at an exponential
rate over time. Your core argument must be as solid as a rock, and by that
we don't mean skill in apologetics, it means the argument is able to defend
itself. To me, this does not appear to be a very sound type of logic.
Now, we have similar scenarios for other religions, particularly Islam and
Judaism, as these have similar roots.
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
As soon as we are born, most of us cry. It's the cold after being in our
mother's womb and the stress on us of being born. We're sensing the world
and we haven't even opened our eyes yet. We may be using our instincts to
call for help and protection, but still that reaction has a logical root.
This one is "Everything we sense is real.", not necessarily real as it is
what you think it is (For example if you play a sound file of a cow mooing,
it doesn't mean that there is a cow nearby, but you could fool someone), but
importantly, it is something on which to base a reaction on. Trust in our
sensory organs is built in from the first second of life.
"Everything we sense is real" doesn't mean that we aren't trapped in a
Matrix-type situation (and we probably are not), but if we were, everything
we would sense is still something, whether simulated or not and we do not
necessarily need to understand it to do something with that information.
Of course, this is true in the animal world also, which even though they
aren't as intelligent as us, and like babies also, are all atheists. Yes, if
you touch the atheist caterpillar, it will attempt to defend itself. The
atheist dog will bark at the television. If an atheist cat spots an atheist
mouse, it will chase it.
We're generally open-minded people, but I think this helps explain the
difference for some between "Believing that there is no God" and "Not
believing in God".
Unfortunately for young children, there is an instinct which explains how
easy it is for them to be entered into religion, and that is the "Trust your
peers" instinct. Children often believe what is told to them by adults as
truth, basically children are gulliable, because they want to learn, but are
unsure as to where to learn from, ie why we tell them to not talk to
strangers. This gets switched off when puberty kicks in, so maybe all
children should receive a secular upbringing until the age of 13 by law.
.
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| User: "Dan Listermann" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 04:38:29 PM |
|
|
"Codebreaker" <Codebreaker@bigsecret.com> wrote in message
news:1189110761.352378.264050@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Here is the Christians core argument:
God through Moses foretold the advent of the Messiah,
the one that is called Christ in the Greek parlance.
Jesus was found to fit the descriptions contained not
in the bible but in the Torah of Moses as reported by the
Acts of the Apostles.
More likely the Jesus story was massaged to meet the scriptures because his
followers believed he was the Messiah.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 04:03:22 PM |
|
|
On Sep 6, 1:32 pm, Codebreaker <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 1:56 am, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
Here is the Christians core argument:
God through Moses foretold the advent of the Messiah,
the one that is called Christ in the Greek parlance.
Jesus was found to fit the descriptions contained not
in the bible but in the Torah of Moses as reported by the
Acts of the Apostles. So Jesus being the Messiah that is to
say Christ, therefore God is real as Islam and Catholicism/Trinitarian
the two branches of Christianity cancelled out each other
in a perfect equillibrium which could not be the work
of Darwin or Evolution or the work of any other human being.
Since the balance is not brought out by any humane being
it must be God's work. God dOES exist.
***** YOU ALL DENIERS
So the Christian's "core argument" is incoherent? Maybe you should let
someone more rational take a shot at it, you're not helping your cause
at all.
.
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| User: "Codebreaker" |
|
| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 04:15:06 PM |
|
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On Sep 6, 5:03 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 1:32 pm, Codebreaker <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 1:56 am, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
Here is the Christians core argument:
God through Moses foretold the advent of the Messiah,
the one that is called Christ in the Greek parlance.
Jesus was found to fit the descriptions contained not
in the bible but in the Torah of Moses as reported by the
Acts of the Apostles. So Jesus being the Messiah that is to
say Christ, therefore God is real as Islam and Catholicism/Trinitarian
the two branches of Christianity cancelled out each other
in a perfect equillibrium which could not be the work
of Darwin or Evolution or the work of any other human being.
Since the balance is not brought out by any humane being
it must be God's work. God dOES exist.
***** YOU ALL DENIERS
So the Christian's "core argument" is incoherent? Maybe you should let
someone more rational take a shot at it, you're not helping your cause.
INCOHERENCE IS IN YOUR HEAD
at all.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 04:44:35 PM |
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On Sep 6, 2:15 pm, Codebreaker <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 5:03 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 1:32 pm, Codebreaker <Codebrea...@bigsecret.com> wrote:
On Sep 6, 1:56 am, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
Here is the Christians core argument:
God through Moses foretold the advent of the Messiah,
the one that is called Christ in the Greek parlance.
Jesus was found to fit the descriptions contained not
in the bible but in the Torah of Moses as reported by the
Acts of the Apostles. So Jesus being the Messiah that is to
say Christ, therefore God is real as Islam and Catholicism/Trinitarian
the two branches of Christianity cancelled out each other
in a perfect equillibrium which could not be the work
of Darwin or Evolution or the work of any other human being.
Since the balance is not brought out by any humane being
it must be God's work. God dOES exist.
***** YOU ALL DENIERS
So the Christian's "core argument" is incoherent? Maybe you should let
someone more rational take a shot at it, you're not helping your cause.
INCOHERENCE IS IN YOUR HEAD
I can hear your blood vessels popping from here. You ARE a master
debater, don't let me tell you otherwise.
Okay genius, perhaps you can tell me how this sentence makes any sense
whatsoever:
"So Jesus being the Messiah that is to say Christ, therefore God is
real as Islam and Catholicism/Trinitarian the two branches of
Christianity cancelled out each other in a perfect equillibrium which
could not be the work of Darwin or Evolution or the work of any other
human being."
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
22 Sep 2007 08:53:33 AM |
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On Sep 6, 1:56?am, "Luke" <alcatrazpla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
To me, pure logic doesn't have a central point (or points), core arguments
where all answers eminate from. Because that central point is a weakness
(and if disproven, becomes nothing more than fantasy)
Let us look at some models.
Christian Logic:
Christian Logic has two central arguments, "God (Jehovah) must exist" and
"The Bible is completely factual". For a long time, this has been thought of
a steady base, alas these foundations have become weaker at an exponential
rate over time. Your core argument must be as solid as a rock, and by that
we don't mean skill in apologetics, it means the argument is able to defend
itself. To me, this does not appear to be a very sound type of logic.
Now, we have similar scenarios for other religions, particularly Islam and
Judaism, as these have similar roots.
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
As soon as we are born, most of us cry. It's the cold after being in our
mother's womb and the stress on us of being born. We're sensing the world
and we haven't even opened our eyes yet. We may be using our instincts to
call for help and protection, but still that reaction has a logical root.
This one is "Everything we sense is real.", not necessarily real as it is
what you think it is (For example if you play a sound file of a cow mooing,
it doesn't mean that there is a cow nearby, but you could fool someone), but
importantly, it is something on which to base a reaction on. Trust in our
sensory organs is built in from the first second of life.
"Everything we sense is real" doesn't mean that we aren't trapped in a
Matrix-type situation (and we probably are not), but if we were, everything
we would sense is still something, whether simulated or not and we do not
necessarily need to understand it to do something with that information.
Of course, this is true in the animal world also, which even though they
aren't as intelligent as us, and like babies also, are all atheists. Yes, if
you touch the atheist caterpillar, it will attempt to defend itself. The
atheist dog will bark at the television. If an atheist cat spots an atheist
mouse, it will chase it.
We're generally open-minded people, but I think this helps explain the
difference for some between "Believing that there is no God" and "Not
believing in God".
Unfortunately for young children, there is an instinct which explains how
easy it is for them to be entered into religion, and that is the "Trust your
peers" instinct. Children often believe what is told to them by adults as
truth, basically children are gulliable, because they want to learn, but are
unsure as to where to learn from, ie why we tell them to not talk to
strangers. This gets switched off when puberty kicks in, so maybe all
children should receive a secular upbringing until the age of 13 by law.
Most Christians run on faith not logic
When it comes to faith...faith must always be based on the fact of a
'first see-er' or 'first contact' that is telling the truth.
We do not come up with ideas to base faith on all on our own.
All religious faith is based on someone else's reports.
If this persons report is based on lies, than the faith must
evaporate.
I am not shy to benefit from spiritual and religious tools. The only
requirement is that the tool can be tested for practical application.
And if the tool can't be tested and requires faith, I have to let it
go for the most part since there are so many lies that religion of man
is based on and no one can prove or disprove any of it.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for
the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the
time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken
and useless.
Traditional freethinkers do not accept me as one of their group, since
I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to garner wisdom
to live at peace. Traditional freethinkers do not like anything that
comes from religion. Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a
freethinker...but I must block out everything that comes from religion
and spiritual traditions and whatever other prejudice I wish to inject
into the equation?
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
Religious practicers as well as atheists need to open their mind and
see things without the delusions that both sides of this topic are
stuck in.
'Honor dies where interest lies.'
As an agnostic freethinker my interest is in discovering truth.
When we limit personal prejudice we can open our minds to truth and
peace. And realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside
within the human breast."
If it is religion that atheists or theists need to adopt, they only
have to look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying
secular humanism lip service will not do any good. Our talk of
spiritual values must match our actions.
I discuss this topic of faith with an ex-rabbi towards the end of this
thread:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=51.0
From my own perspective since religion is riddled with lies and
ambiguities, the need for faith is where I leave off.
I test the spiritual traditions for veracity. Those areas that cannot
be tested or otherwise proved are let go of and those that can be
tested are either peace producing or peace destroying.
If peace destroying I let them go and if peace promoting I try to
implement some of them in my life.
A lot of people get confused when I talk about inner peace.
Some of them call me a 'self righteous twit' or worse.
Well, just because I talk about this peace subject a lot, does not
mean I practice it in all waking and sleeping hours.
Sometime I destroy me own peace as well.
But at least I do know the formula how to get back to a place of inner
peace if I desire to return to that place.
Peace is always a personal choice as no one can do it for us.
Inner peace does not take faith...it takes testing and practice.
"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside
forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness
falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies
to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires." ~
Hindu Sage
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "marika" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
04 Oct 2007 11:31:54 PM |
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V wrote in message <1190469213.778126.22130@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>...
"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside
forces and energy to make it move uphill.
I think he meant he is constipated. I might not get it except that
the hallucinatory one is
always complaining about this. He goes in to the bathroom and reads while trying to
take a dump. And then when he gets out he says that he shouldn't do that because
reading in the bathroom will cause hemorrhoids ?????
I also guess the only reason men read in the bathroom is because they are constipated
They are not like me - either you gotta go or not
so the human consciousness
falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies
to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires." ~
Hindu Sage
old wives tale I guess
mk5000
"I found an easier tool
from Enonymous.com that autofills forms
for you. It doesn't always work
because some sites ask for a lot of
required info, so sometimes I do have
to go back and manually finish a form."--philip o
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 07:08:36 AM |
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On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:56:13 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
That's news to me but then I'm only an atheist so what would I be
expected to know about it?
For the last 60 years it has required no root because I'm simply not
any kind of theist. I don't have anything to say doesn't exist because
it's merely the belief of somebody else's religion. Nor do I have
anything to be agnostic about either, for the same reason.
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 11:43:22 AM |
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"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u8rvd3l7esa35p3g2rka10s80g4jab1bru@4ax.com...
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:56:13 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
That's news to me but then I'm only an atheist so what would I be
expected to know about it?
For the last 60 years it has required no root because I'm simply not
any kind of theist. I don't have anything to say doesn't exist because
it's merely the belief of somebody else's religion. Nor do I have
anything to be agnostic about either, for the same reason.
I like this particular view.
Saves a lot of bother when discussing theism with theists
--
Steve O
a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter)
B.A.A.W.A.
Convicted by Earthquack
"The only problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them underwater long
enough."
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| User: "Luke" |
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| Title: Re: Logic |
06 Sep 2007 12:16:05 PM |
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"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u8rvd3l7esa35p3g2rka10s80g4jab1bru@4ax.com...
On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:56:13 +0100, "Luke"
<alcatrazplanet@invalid.invalid> wrote:
It could be argued that Atheism can be rooted in a similar way, that our
root of logic is "God cannot exist" and vehemently deny anything that
doesn't fit. However, this may not be how we work.
That's news to me but then I'm only an atheist so what would I be
expected to know about it?
For the last 60 years it has required no root because I'm simply not
any kind of theist. I don't have anything to say doesn't exist because
it's merely the belief of somebody else's religion. Nor do I have
anything to be agnostic about either, for the same reason.
Well it could be argued, but I didn't really say that it was my argument.
Are we atheists because we want to be? No. We just know the facts.
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