| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Tom Moore" |
| Date: |
17 Jul 2005 06:22:18 PM |
| Object: |
London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
In Monty Python and the Holy Grail King Arthur confronts a black knight,
who challenges him to a duel. Arthur lops off one of his opponent's arms,
but the black knight keeps taunting him. "Snick!" There goes the other
arm, then one leg and then another, until the knight is reduced to a mere
trunk, with blood spurting in all directions. But still he doesn't give
up. "Come on then, you coward, do your worst!" he shouts. Funny thing,
defiance.
Any admiration for Londoners, though, was as nothing compared with the
adulation Londoners - egged on by the media - heaped on themselves.
Everything, from the spirit of the Blitz to the inherent strength of the
multicultural community, was trotted out, as if to suggest that, far from
a city being hit without warning by an invisible enemy we had actually
witnessed a major victory over the terrorists. "London 1 - Al Qaeda 0"
said one headline. What?
Prime Minister Tony Blair helped by telling us on the one hand that the
sole purpose of these evil men is to maim and kill (in the absence of a
serious political agenda) and, on the other, claiming that the terrorists
will never succeed.
For men who want to maim and kill - and nothing else - they'd just
succeeded remarkably well. Nor could the WTC, Bali and Madrid be
classified as dismal failures, from a maiming and killing point of view.
The Blairs and Bushes of this world are in a bit of a cleft stick over
terrorism. Unwilling to admit that there are political motives behind the
attacks (opposition to American world dominance, to its friendly
relations with undemocratic but oil-rich regimes in the Middle East, to
its unquestioning support of Israel and, more recently, to the wars
against Afghanistan and Iraq) they have no other explanation to offer
than the existence of groups of people who kill others - and frequently
themselves - for the sheer hell of it. Not very persuasive - and that's
why a new reason has been added to the mantra, "they hate our way of
life". Oh right.
So that's why I may in the near future be reduced to a mess on the
pavement: they hate my way of life. They've never in my 44 years hated my
way of life enough to blow me to bits, but now I'm told they do. Pull the
other one, it's a con, designed to keep your public on side. A political
motive behind terrorism would suggest that there is a political way to
deal with it.
This Bush and Blair are not prepared to do. Much better to give people
the idea that somehow not governments are the cause but the general
public, the men and women in the street themselves. We're guilty, because
of our way of life. There's nothing our leaders can or will do to protect
us, so we must take it on the chin and raise our fists in defiance. "Come
on you cowards! Do your worst! You won't get us down! We'll keep our way
of life!"
The train and bus bombers could be reduced to helplessness, with
laughter.
So now we wait to see whose way of life will next arouse the anger of
evil men. Could it be the Italians, whose taste for extravagant shirts
and artichokes alarms even non-Arabs? Or Denmark, where the Danish way of
life - including a diet rich in raw eggs - is now being protected by the
most Draconian immigration policy in Europe?
Or could it be the Netherlands, where our hateful predilections include
cannabis, free sex, gay marriage, euthanasia, and salt-cured herring with
onions and pickle? The same Netherlands where Islamic fundamentalism is
currently on trial in the person of Mohammed Bouyeri, the killer of Theo
van Gogh?
If the Dutch are due some punishment, they'll know it's their own fault,
not their leaders. With innocent blood running down the gutter there's
only one course of action. Be defiant, that'll teach these evil men.
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Bishop The" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
17 Jul 2005 07:16:55 PM |
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On 17-Jul-2005, Tom Moore <email@spam.com> wrote:
In Monty Python and the Holy Grail King Arthur confronts a black knight,
who challenges him to a duel. Arthur lops off one of his opponent's arms,
but the black knight keeps taunting him. "Snick!" There goes the other
arm, then one leg and then another, until the knight is reduced to a mere
trunk, with blood spurting in all directions. But still he doesn't give
up. "Come on then, you coward, do your worst!" he shouts. Funny thing,
defiance.
Any admiration for Londoners, though, was as nothing compared with the
adulation Londoners - egged on by the media - heaped on themselves.
Everything, from the spirit of the Blitz to the inherent strength of the
multicultural community, was trotted out, as if to suggest that, far from
a city being hit without warning by an invisible enemy we had actually
witnessed a major victory over the terrorists. "London 1 - Al Qaeda 0"
said one headline. What?
Prime Minister Tony Blair helped by telling us on the one hand that the
sole purpose of these evil men is to maim and kill (in the absence of a
serious political agenda) and, on the other, claiming that the terrorists
will never succeed.
For men who want to maim and kill - and nothing else - they'd just
succeeded remarkably well. Nor could the WTC, Bali and Madrid be
classified as dismal failures, from a maiming and killing point of view.
The Blairs and Bushes of this world are in a bit of a cleft stick over
terrorism. Unwilling to admit that there are political motives behind the
attacks (opposition to American world dominance, to its friendly
relations with undemocratic but oil-rich regimes in the Middle East, to
its unquestioning support of Israel and, more recently, to the wars
against Afghanistan and Iraq) they have no other explanation to offer
than the existence of groups of people who kill others - and frequently
themselves - for the sheer hell of it. Not very persuasive - and that's
why a new reason has been added to the mantra, "they hate our way of
life". Oh right.
So that's why I may in the near future be reduced to a mess on the
pavement: they hate my way of life. They've never in my 44 years hated my
way of life enough to blow me to bits, but now I'm told they do. Pull the
other one, it's a con, designed to keep your public on side. A political
motive behind terrorism would suggest that there is a political way to
deal with it.
This Bush and Blair are not prepared to do. Much better to give people
the idea that somehow not governments are the cause but the general
public, the men and women in the street themselves. We're guilty, because
of our way of life. There's nothing our leaders can or will do to protect
us, so we must take it on the chin and raise our fists in defiance. "Come
on you cowards! Do your worst! You won't get us down! We'll keep our way
of life!"
The train and bus bombers could be reduced to helplessness, with
laughter.
So now we wait to see whose way of life will next arouse the anger of
evil men. Could it be the Italians, whose taste for extravagant shirts
and artichokes alarms even non-Arabs? Or Denmark, where the Danish way of
life - including a diet rich in raw eggs - is now being protected by the
most Draconian immigration policy in Europe?
Or could it be the Netherlands, where our hateful predilections include
cannabis, free sex, gay marriage, euthanasia, and salt-cured herring with
onions and pickle? The same Netherlands where Islamic fundamentalism is
currently on trial in the person of Mohammed Bouyeri, the killer of Theo
van Gogh?
If the Dutch are due some punishment, they'll know it's their own fault,
not their leaders. With innocent blood running down the gutter there's
only one course of action. Be defiant, that'll teach these evil men.
Very interesting dissertation, and some of it is probably true. However,
there is one statement that caught me.........
"This Bush and Blair are not prepared to do. Much better to give people
the idea that somehow not governments are the cause but the general
public, the men and women in the street themselves. We're guilty, because
of our way of life. There's nothing our leaders can or will do to protect
us, so we must take it on the chin and raise our fists in defiance. "Come
on you cowards! Do your worst! You won't get us down! We'll keep our way
of life!""
If they are not after the men and women on the streets, then why don't
they focus on the military targets only? They have total disregard for
even their own civilian people.
I have to say that the methods that these terrorists use are, in fact,
cowardly. Too cowardly to take on the military that fights them, but
draw satisfaction from taking out those few military personnel by
way of blowing themselves up, along with any civilians around, in the
process.
Another point concerning their tactics. Killing civilians will only work
so long before the public at large will grow tired of it. Fear only works
so long before people get very angry. This may result in a worse
retaliation than the terrorists had imagined. Ask Japan.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
17 Jul 2005 11:44:42 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote
If they are not after the men and women on the streets,
then why don't they focus on the military targets only?
They have total disregard for even their own civilian
people.
Suicide attacks are a loser's strategy. Not only is it based
on the attacker's belief in their own inferiority, but it can't
help but result in the other side viewing the lives of the
attacker's people as worthless.
After all, when your enemy wants to die for what they
believe in, the best solution for both of you is to kill
them. All. Quickly.
There. Everyone is happy.
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| User: "Maria" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
18 Jul 2005 04:34:16 AM |
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 00:44:42 -0400, "JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote
If they are not after the men and women on the streets,
then why don't they focus on the military targets only?
They have total disregard for even their own civilian
people.
Suicide attacks are a loser's strategy. Not only is it based
on the attacker's belief in their own inferiority,
Suicide attacks are an effective way of conducting an attack when you
have no tanks or missiles.
but it can't
help but result in the other side viewing the lives of the
attacker's people as worthless.
Presumably if the simply bombed the buses or shops from a distance
with a long range missile, they would be more highly regarded.
After all, when your enemy wants to die for what they
believe in,
Do people really think that people do this for nothing? They could
just immolate themselves in a field out of harm's way, but they don't
do that.
the best solution for both of you is to kill
them. All. Quickly.
There. Everyone is happy.
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| User: "Tom Moore" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
17 Jul 2005 08:49:07 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in
news:XxCCe.18922$yC5.3428@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com:
If they are not after the men and women on the streets,
then why don't they focus on the military targets only?
I don't know, but I think the answer is obvious; albeit they did attack
federal government buildings in Washington DC.
They have total disregard for
even their own civilian people.
I do know.
Killing civilians will only work so long before
the public at large will grow tired of it.
And sometimes it works, for example, Nelson Mandela.
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Tom Moore" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
18 Jul 2005 04:39:54 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in
news:XxCCe.18922$yC5.3428@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com:
Very interesting dissertation, and
some of it is probably true.
Thanks. Hopefully my cancellation of my initial response to you worked.
If they are not after the men and women on the streets, then
why don't they focus on the military targets only? They have
total disregard for even their own civilian people.
I'm not an apologist for terrorists.
I have concerns about Islam as practiced. We need to deal with Islam,
and stop pretending today's Islam is like any other distant religion, not
substantially different to Hinduism or Buddhism.
Christianity and Judaism have scripture just as unhelpful as Islam's, but
it is almost unknown for adherents of those traditions to take them
seriously. Arguably, Allah is more vicious than Yahweh because the
latter prescribes sinners 40 lashes, the Islamic former requires 100.
"(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them,
(giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the
matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day,
and let a party of believers witness their chastisement" (Koran 24:2).
"And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the
judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face . . .
Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed" (Deuteronomy 25:2-3).
http://www.broomleigh.org/quiz/vicious.html (a God v Allah test)
http://www.broomleigh.org/quiz/vicians.htm (answers with scripture)
The difference, as far as I can tell, is that in today's Islam,
literalism and religious intellectual arrogance, is normal.
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Bishop The" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
18 Jul 2005 08:01:47 PM |
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On 18-Jul-2005, Tom Moore <email@spam.com> wrote:
Very interesting dissertation, and
some of it is probably true.
Thanks. Hopefully my cancellation of my initial response to you worked.
If they are not after the men and women on the streets, then
why don't they focus on the military targets only? They have
total disregard for even their own civilian people.
I'm not an apologist for terrorists.
I have concerns about Islam as practiced. We need to deal with Islam,
and stop pretending today's Islam is like any other distant religion, not
substantially different to Hinduism or Buddhism.
Christianity and Judaism have scripture just as unhelpful as Islam's, but
it is almost unknown for adherents of those traditions to take them
seriously. Arguably, Allah is more vicious than Yahweh because the
latter prescribes sinners 40 lashes, the Islamic former requires 100.
"(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them,
(giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the
matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day,
and let a party of believers witness their chastisement" (Koran 24:2).
"And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the
judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face . . .
Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed" (Deuteronomy 25:2-3).
http://www.broomleigh.org/quiz/vicious.html (a God v Allah test)
http://www.broomleigh.org/quiz/vicians.htm (answers with scripture)
The difference, as far as I can tell, is that in today's Islam,
literalism and religious intellectual arrogance, is normal.
After 58+ years, I have come to the realization that "religion" seems
to invoke the most evil in people, even as it pretends to raise them
to a, so-called, "higher level".
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| User: "Tom Moore" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
18 Jul 2005 09:49:10 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in
news:%hYCe.22626$yC5.1668@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com:
After 58+ years, I have come to the realization that
"religion" seems to invoke the most evil in people,
even as it pretends to raise them to a, so-called,
"higher level".
Took me 40 odd years to notice, and still find it difficult, but what you
say is my experience. I kick myself for not noticing, and chide myself
for not putting that knowledge into use in my life.
He does not make this public, and is not a very nice person anyway, so
Britain's leading active psychiatrist, Professor Robin Murray, uses a
simple first test for madness: belief in a god.
I thought it was funny when I first heard it, but eventually I asked some
users of psychiatric services. Every single one of them had some kind of
faith or other.
Are you a Church of England Bishop? The Anglicans have their own rules
of chess, because in the Anglican communion, as you may have noticed,
Bishops can jump whatever they please.
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Bishop The" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
19 Jul 2005 06:31:27 PM |
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On 18-Jul-2005, Tom Moore <email@spam.com> wrote:
After 58+ years, I have come to the realization that
"religion" seems to invoke the most evil in people,
even as it pretends to raise them to a, so-called,
"higher level".
Took me 40 odd years to notice, and still find it difficult, but what you
say is my experience. I kick myself for not noticing, and chide myself
for not putting that knowledge into use in my life.
I gave the crap up at 13. It's also used often as....
1. A crutch.
2. An excuse for bad actions.
3. Denial.
If you ever want to see the worse side of religion, get involved with
the catholic church. Most of the nuns are nuts, and many of the
priests are........well.........
He does not make this public, and is not a very nice person anyway, so
Britain's leading active psychiatrist, Professor Robin Murray, uses a
simple first test for madness: belief in a god.
Good start I'd say.
I thought it was funny when I first heard it, but eventually I asked some
users of psychiatric services. Every single one of them had some kind of
faith or other.
or on their way to getting it.
Are you a Church of England Bishop? The Anglicans have their own rules
of chess, because in the Anglican communion, as you may have noticed,
Bishops can jump whatever they please.
I'm from the church of common sense and responsibility for oneself. Plus,
I only move diagonally - whenever possible.
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| User: "Tom Moore" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
19 Jul 2005 11:18:01 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote in
news:j3gDe.22892$yC5.11616@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com:
A crutch. . . . An excuse for bad actions. . . . Denial.
True.
If you ever want to see the worse side of religion,
get involved with the catholic church.
I have been, and didn't notice.
Most of the nuns are nuts, and many of
the priests are........well.........
One priest patted my bum, which I didn't like. No complaints about the
others, above and beyond the truth about ministers of other religions.
One RC priest told me "it's not easy being single all the time." Father
Quinlan said in one of his sermons - Homily in Catholic speak - that God
may have created Adam, "by breathing a rational soul into an ape."
That seems to me more reasonable than creationism, but this was in the
1970s, before Reagan teemed up with Thatcher, in order to set the Anglo-
Saxon world on the march back into the dark ages.
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Lounger" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
19 Jul 2005 06:34:42 PM |
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"Bishop" <The Bishop@OnTheBoard.Com> wrote:
I'm from the church of common sense and responsibility for oneself. Plus,
I only move diagonally - whenever possible.
And you always sit on the same colour?
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| User: "Bishop The" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
19 Jul 2005 06:49:03 PM |
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On 19-Jul-2005, Lounger <lounger@mailexpire.com> wrote:
I'm from the church of common sense and responsibility for oneself. Plus,
I only move diagonally - whenever possible.
And you always sit on the same colour?
Depends on which side of the board I move from.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
19 Jul 2005 06:42:31 PM |
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Tom Moore wrote:
<Snippage>
Christianity and Judaism have scripture just as unhelpful as Islam's, but
it is almost unknown for adherents of those traditions to take them
seriously.
You've *got* to be kidding - or you're not paying attention. Here in
the USA, we've got a right *passel* of Christians who are Biblical
literalists, and a goodish number of them advocate Old Testament Law
replace the laws of the United States. They're called "Dominionists,"
and they're scary *and* influential bunch o'folks.
<More snipping>
The difference, as far as I can tell, is that in today's Islam, literalism and >religious intellectual arrogance, is normal.
And this differs from Fundamentalist Christianity ... how?
Admittedly, I'm looking at it from an American perspective, and not
that of a European; but still.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "Tom Moore" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
20 Jul 2005 09:32:43 PM |
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"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in
news:1121816551.391236.98920@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Here in the USA, we've got a right *passel* of
Christians who are Biblical literalists, and
a goodish number of them advocate Old Testament
Law replace the laws of the United States.
Remind me why your founding fathers left England for the Americas?
They're called "Dominionists," and they're
scary *and* influential bunch o'folks.
Like when they murder abortionists? They went too far with Terry Schavio
earlier this year. If I may put like this, "praise the Lord." Reminded
me of Star Trek, "it's life Jim, but not as we know it."
And this differs from Fundamentalist Christianity ... how?
Apart from the Creation Science Museum, http://www.drdino.com/ , of which
Islam has no equivalent?
Difference is this is not the norm in US Christianity, though US
Christianity is heading in that direction. In Islam, it is the norm.
Admittedly, I'm looking at it from an American
perspective, and not that of a European; but still.
Europeans are more concerned about it than you are. It took a Democrat
Senator from West Virginia to remind us that the appointment of a US
president is a matter for the people of the US alone, and if we don't
like it - and we don't - then we Europeans have to "get over it."
--
http://www.tommoore.co.uk
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| User: "Ordog" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
17 Jul 2005 10:58:44 PM |
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Bishop wrote:
<SNIP for brevity>
I could accept your opinion except for this:
I have to say that the methods that these terrorists use are, in fact,
cowardly.
Somehow killing yourself to achieve your goals is everything but
cowardly. They are stupid, brainwashed, fanatical etc. ... COWARDS?????
NO!
Ordog
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." Bernard Shaw
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| User: "Eddie C" |
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| Title: Re: London 1 - Al Qaeda 0 |
17 Jul 2005 06:43:55 PM |
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Tom Moore <email@spam.com> wrote:
Denmark, where the Danish way of
life - including a diet rich in raw eggs - is now being protected by the
most Draconian immigration policy in Europe
Draconian?
Any bugger can go there. (And any bugger's welcome to it.)
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