| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Fred Stone" |
| Date: |
23 Nov 2005 03:37:25 PM |
| Object: |
Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-
boot23nov23,0,1306469.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
Iraq's a lost cause? Ask the real experts
WHEN IT COMES to the future of Iraq, there is a deep disconnect between
those who have firsthand knowledge of the situation — Iraqis and U.S.
soldiers serving in Iraq — and those whose impressions are shaped by
doomsday press coverage and the imperatives of domestic politics.
A large majority of the American public is convinced that the liberation
of Iraq was a mistake, while a smaller but growing number thinks that we
are losing and that we need to pull out soon. Those sentiments are
echoed by finger-in-the-wind politicians, including many — such as John
Kerry, Harry Reid, John Edwards, John Murtha and Bill Clinton — who
supported the invasion.
Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican
Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the
right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was
going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in
six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.
American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians.
The Pew Research Center and the Council on Foreign Relations just
released a survey of American elites that found that 64% of military
officers are confident that we will succeed in establishing a stable
democracy in Iraq. The comparable figures for journalists and academics
are 33% and 27%, respectively. Even more impressive than the Pew poll is
the evidence of how our service members are voting with their feet.
Although both the Army and the Marine Corps are having trouble
attracting fresh recruits — no surprise, given the state of public
opinion regarding Iraq — reenlistment rates continue to exceed
expectations. Veterans are expressing their confidence in the war effort
by signing up to continue fighting.
Now, it could be that the Iraqi public and the U.S. armed forces are
delusional. Maybe things really are on an irreversible downward slope.
But before reaching such an apocalyptic conclusion, stop to consider why
so many with firsthand experience have more hope than those without any.
FOR STARTERS, one can point to two successful elections this year, on
Jan. 30 and Oct. 15, in which the majority of Iraqis braved insurgent
threats to vote. The constitutional referendum in October was
particularly significant because it marked the first wholesale
engagement of Sunnis in the political process. Since then, Sunni
political parties have made clear their determination to also
participate in the Dec. 15 parliamentary election. This is big news. The
most disaffected group in Iraq is starting to realize that it must
achieve its objectives through ballots, not bullets.
There are also positive economic indicators that receive little or no
coverage in the Western media. For all the insurgents' attempts to
sabotage the Iraqi economy, the Brookings Institution reports that per
capita income has doubled since 2003 and is now 30% higher than it was
before the war. Thanks primarily to the increase in oil prices, the
Iraqi economy is projected to grow at a whopping 16.8% next year.
According to Brookings' Iraq index, there are five times more cars on
the streets than in Saddam Hussein's day, five times more telephone
subscribers and 32 times more Internet users.
The growth of the independent media — a prerequisite of liberal
democracy — is even more inspiring. Before 2003 there was not a single
independent media outlet in Iraq. Today, Brookings reports, there are 44
commercial TV stations, 72 radio stations and more than 100 newspapers.
But aren't bombs still going off at an alarming rate? Of course. It's
almost impossible to stop a few thousand fanatics who are willing to
commit suicide to slaughter others.
Yet there is hope on the security front. Since the Jan. 30 election, not
a single Iraqi unit has crumbled in battle, according to Army Lt. Gen.
David H. Petraeus, who until September was in charge of their training.
Iraqi soldiers are showing impressive determination in fighting the
terrorists, notwithstanding the terrible casualties they have taken.
Their increasing success is evident on "Route Irish," from Baghdad
International Airport. Once the most dangerous road in Iraq, it is now
one of the safest. The last coalition fatality there that was a result
of enemy action occurred in March.
This is not meant to suggest that everything is wonderful in Iraq. The
situation remains grim in many respects. But the most disheartening
indicator of all is simply the American public's loss of confidence in
the war effort. Abu Musab Zarqawi may be losing on the Arab street (his
own family has disowned him), but he's winning on Main Street. And, as
the Vietnam War showed, defeatism on the home front can become self-
fulfilling.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"I actually think what we learned during the inspection
made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than,
in fact, we thought it was even before the war." -- David Kay
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6075
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| User: "G-Ride" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
23 Nov 2005 06:26:54 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97176C307B4A1fstone69@213.155.197.138...
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-
boot23nov23,0,1306469.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
And, as
the Vietnam War showed, defeatism on the home front can become self-
fulfilling.
Funny how the people that start wars never seem to want to take the blame
for their pet adventures turning to *****. Instead they blame the people
that said it was a bad idea to begin with.
--
Aloha, G-Ride
"Like a quarrelling group of monkeys on a leaky boat, armed with sticks of
dynamite, we are now embarked on an uncertain journey."
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
23 Nov 2005 05:21:04 PM |
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In our last episode, <Xns97176C307B4A1fstone69@213.155.197.138>,
the lovely and talented Fred Stone broadcast on alt.atheism:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-
boot23nov23,0,1306469.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
Obviously Fred's clue shield is holding.
Here is the outcome of the Iraq war:
The US will pull out sometime. The American public will not
stand for making Iraq the 51st State at the cost of 1,000
killed/year.
A Shiite Islamic republic will be established. The status of
women and minorities will be worse than under Saddam. Iraq will
be no friend of the US, but will align itself in lockstep with
Iran. The Islamic republic will purge itself of Al Qaida, but
will never achieve complete control of all areas of the country,
so Al Qaida camps will thrive and the Iraqi population will
continue to be a bountiful recruitment ground. The US will
look the other way as the Iraqi government cooperates with the
Turks to destroy the Kurds.
This will be the outcome if the US pulls out tomorrow. Or a
year from now. Or ten years from now. It was the certain
outcome once Bush invaded. The only question is how many
American lives will be thrown away before that outcome is
reached.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC http://www.larseighner.com/
The Mint Jelly of God® -- The World's Best Atheist -- Unholier Than Thou
First Church of Electro-Baptism ***Atheist #1965*** One Short Circuit to Jesus
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." --T. Jefferson
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
23 Nov 2005 09:11:07 PM |
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In <slrndo9961.62t.usenet@goodwill.io.com>, Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com> wrote:
Iraq will be no friend of the
US, but will align itself in lockstep with Iran.
The Shia have been getting cozy with Tehran for a while now. The
administration's solution seems to be "ignore it and maybe it'll go away."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Forgotten Already
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1233272C
Feds are treating Louisiana like enemy
"...it may be that they may have written us off."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O21E51C1C
http://www.nola.com
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| User: "Nightshade" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
25 Nov 2005 10:35:12 PM |
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:37:25 +0000 (UTC), Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> wrote:
A large majority of the American public is convinced that the liberation
of Iraq was a mistake, while a smaller but growing number thinks that we
are losing and that we need to pull out soon. Those sentiments are
echoed by finger-in-the-wind politicians, including many — such as John
Kerry, Harry Reid, John Edwards, John Murtha and Bill Clinton — who
supported the invasion.
Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican
Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the
right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was
going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in
six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.
American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians.
I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that soldiers are
never given time to think, or worry, when in action.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
26 Nov 2005 12:51:20 AM |
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Nightshade <nightshade@thedeepwoods.web> wrote in
news:pu3fo1hijs58uo4ko6os03na2ftdq1muen@4ax.com:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:37:25 +0000 (UTC), Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> wrote:
A large majority of the American public is convinced that the
liberation of Iraq was a mistake, while a smaller but growing number
thinks that we are losing and that we need to pull out soon. Those
sentiments are echoed by finger-in-the-wind politicians, including
many — such as John Kerry, Harry Reid, John Edwards, John Murtha and
Bill Clinton — who supported the invasion.
Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International
Republican Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was
headed in the right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought
that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would
be better in six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.
American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American
civilians.
I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that soldiers are
never given time to think, or worry, when in action.
Not likely. Soldiers do get free time, you know. I think it has more to
do with the fact that they know what's going on over there, better than
some MSM reporters at the Baghdad Hilton.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"I actually think what we learned during the inspection
made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than,
in fact, we thought it was even before the war." -- David Kay
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6075
.
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| User: "Eris" |
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| Title: Re: Lost Cause? Ask the real experts. |
25 Nov 2005 10:35:59 PM |
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On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:35:12 GMT, Nightshade
<nightshade@thedeepwoods.web> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:37:25 +0000 (UTC), Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> wrote:
A large majority of the American public is convinced that the liberation
of Iraq was a mistake, while a smaller but growing number thinks that we
are losing and that we need to pull out soon. Those sentiments are
echoed by finger-in-the-wind politicians, including many — such as John
Kerry, Harry Reid, John Edwards, John Murtha and Bill Clinton — who
supported the invasion.
Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican
Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the
right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was
going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in
six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.
American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians.
I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that soldiers are
never given time to think, or worry, when in action.
It is a courts martial offense to criticize the military, while in
uniform.
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