| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MarkA" |
| Date: |
03 Jun 2005 08:09:21 AM |
| Object: |
Magical Thinking |
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of that
exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the magical
outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How does the
authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed rituals,
confident that the church knows as much about such things as your mom did
when you were 6.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Rally_Round" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 09:43:17 AM |
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"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.06.03.13.09.20.998642@stopspam.net...
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of
magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and
his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very
concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power
of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It
seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of
that
exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the magical
outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How does
the
authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict
the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of
God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone
who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed
rituals,
confident that the church knows as much about such things as your mom
did
when you were 6.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
What did she tell your son? Before or after?
I am just curious.
I would have said before. The reason for this is that I imagine the
wish being "imparted" onto the coin before it is tossed into the water
to perform it's magic. But I guess you can also look at it as asking
some spirit in the water to grant your wish, and you throw the coin to
get its attention first and as payment for presumed duties performed.
It is all bunk anyway, but it is fun to think about.
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| User: "Vince" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 11:57:32 AM |
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"MarkA" <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.06.03.13.09.20.998642@stopspam.net...
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of that
exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the magical
outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How does the
authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed rituals,
confident that the church knows as much about such things as your mom did
when you were 6.
Excellent post.
Vince
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 01:56:46 PM |
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In our last episode,
<pan.2005.06.03.13.09.20.998642@stopspam.net>,
the lovely and talented MarkA
broadcast on alt.atheism:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important.
Any sufficiently advance magic is indistinguishable from
technology.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner ULC Atheist #1965 http://www.larseighner.com/
"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."
--George Washington
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 03:43:40 PM |
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Lars Eighner wrote:
Any sufficiently advance magic is indistinguishable from
technology.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced. :-)
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 11:03:15 AM |
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MarkA wrote:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of that
exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the magical
outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How does the
authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed rituals,
confident that the church knows as much about such things as your mom did
when you were 6.
Why does "magical thinking" serve no practical purpose in the evolution
of homo sapiens as judged from an atheist viewpoint? One would at least
suspect that since it is so universal and dominant in human beings, it
has made a significant contribution to our evolutionary development.
Perhaps without it we would be bereft of any imagination or intuition,
and thus much the poorer for its absence.
Denny
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
--
ÐÏࡱá
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 12:48:27 PM |
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"dgillesp" <dgillesp@nospam.net> wrote
Why does "magical thinking" serve no practical purpose
in the evolution of homo sapiens as judged from an
atheist viewpoint? One would at least suspect that since
it is so universal and dominant in human beings, it has
made a significant contribution to our evolutionary
development.
One appears to more than suspect a significant contribution.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm merely pointing out how
limiting that is.
Because something was a significant influence on our
development, perhaps physically as well as socially,
does not mean it was critical to human development. It
in no way/shape/form implies that there would have
been no development without it. In fact, the opposite is
just as likely, that it's influence has hindered our
development.
Perhaps without it we would be bereft of any imagination
or intuition, and thus much the poorer for its absence.
Intuition is over rated, to say the least. Does an imagination
require us to believe in what we imagine as real? I don't
think so. I'd say all the "benefits" are there, even if we don't
take that next step and convince ourselves that fantasy is
reality.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
07 Jun 2005 06:33:38 AM |
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 12:03:15 -0400, dgillesp wrote:
MarkA wrote:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and
his mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very
concerned, and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or
after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of
that exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the
magical outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How
does the authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed
rituals, confident that the church knows as much about such things as
your mom did when you were 6.
Why does "magical thinking" serve no practical purpose in the evolution of
homo sapiens as judged from an atheist viewpoint? One would at least
suspect that since it is so universal and dominant in human beings, it has
made a significant contribution to our evolutionary development. Perhaps
without it we would be bereft of any imagination or intuition, and thus
much the poorer for its absence.
Denny
I think that "magical thinking" clearly does serve a practical purpose in
our evolution, which is why it is so prevalent today. Our ancestors'
survival was enhanced by their ability to recognize patterns, and
therefore to predict the future, so that they could be proactive, instead
of reactive. Once they figure out that the weather gets cold every year,
and animals migrate in response to changes in the weather, etc, they can
figure out where to be to improve the odds of a successful hunt. The
consequences of finding patterns where none exist, such as believing that
religious rituals also influence the success of the hunt, are trivial
compared to the consequences of failing to recognize a valid pattern where
it exists, such as predicting the seasons.
The discovery of "science" was due, in part, to the recognition that when
a pattern is recognized, it must be rigorously tested to verify its
validity. This is not a "natural", i.e. instinctive, activity; it is the
product of our intellect, recognizing that many cherished patterns are, in
fact, false.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 12:11:16 PM |
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dgillesp <dgillesp@nospam.net> wrote in
news:42A07F43.916DBF4C@nospam.net:
MarkA wrote:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of
magical thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a
mall, and his mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He
got very concerned, and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the
penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power
of magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It
seems that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated
version of that exact mindset. What rituals are important in
determining the magical outcome? Who is the authority that would
know the answer? How does the authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict
the behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind
of God than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is
someone who can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the
prescribed rituals, confident that the church knows as much about
such things as your mom did when you were 6.
Why does "magical thinking" serve no practical purpose in the
evolution of homo sapiens as judged from an atheist viewpoint? One
would at least suspect that since it is so universal and dominant in
human beings, it has made a significant contribution to our
evolutionary development. Perhaps without it we would be bereft of any
imagination or intuition, and thus much the poorer for its absence.
Denny
More likely it's a side effect of our imagination and intuition.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Even if the grass is greener on the other side,
they still have to cut it.
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 02:01:20 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
MarkA wrote:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important. It seems
that religions are very much the adult, more sophisticated version of that
exact mindset. What rituals are important in determining the magical
outcome? Who is the authority that would know the answer? How does the
authority get his information?
A skeptic is someone who realizes that *nobody* can reliably predict the
behavior of "magic". The pope has no more insight into the mind of God
than the drunk that lives under the bridge. The believer is someone who
can't face that ugly truth, and is happy to follow the prescribed rituals,
confident that the church knows as much about such things as your mom did
when you were 6.
Why does "magical thinking" serve no practical purpose in the evolution
of homo sapiens as judged from an atheist viewpoint? One would at least
suspect that since it is so universal and dominant in human beings, it
has made a significant contribution to our evolutionary development.
Perhaps without it we would be bereft of any imagination or intuition,
and thus much the poorer for its absence.
Since you have no evidence one way or the other, let me suggest that it
has been a hindrence to our development. Not all traits are positive.
I think we are poorer for it's presence.
jwk
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Magical Thinking |
03 Jun 2005 03:41:59 PM |
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MarkA wrote:
My 6 year old son gave me a little demonstration in the power of magical
thinking the other day. We were in front of a fountain at a mall, and his
mom gave him a penny to throw in and make a wish. He got very concerned,
and asked, "Do I make the wish before I throw the penny, or after?"
It impressed me that he should have such a strong belief in the power of
magic to think that such a technical point would be important.
Young children can be very interested in "technical points".
They've begun to understand just how much world
there is, and how little control they have over it, so
it can be very important to them to gain some control by
doing things just so. Games must be played by the rules,
teddy must be present before the good-night kiss, knocking
someone off the teeter-totter turns from an accident into
a serious crime if you don't stop and say "I'm sorry".
Therefore, it's not unusual for a child, when told by
an adult about wishing wells, to want to know exactly
how this "magic" is to be done.
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
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