| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"derng" |
| Date: |
01 Dec 2003 02:31:44 PM |
| Object: |
Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
.... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in 10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "nullus fides" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 08:15:14 AM |
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And so upon Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:21:56 -0700 didst derng speak thusly:
You act as though none of the events in the NT actually happened. They did.
The books merely recount the activities of Jesus and his apostles, letters
to various Church communities, etc. Your problem is that you apparently
think it is all just made up. That is not the case.
So you assert.
But you haven't any evidence.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 11:10:35 AM |
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In article <bqh1290emf@enews3.newsguy.com>, derng says...
You act as though none of the events in the NT actually happened. They did.
The books merely recount the activities of Jesus and his apostles, letters
to various Church communities, etc. Your problem is that you apparently
think it is all just made up. That is not the case.
So, prove it then.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 07:05:36 PM |
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:12 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> in news
message <bqgllt022tn@enews2.newsguy.com> wrote:
Ever hear of google?
Have a site? I'm not going to spend hours trying to verify your
assertion that there are 456. It's up to you to provide your own
verification.
But even if there were some duplicates it wouldn't reduce the probability
that any random man could have someone wedged himself into a position to
fulfill all of them.
So far, you haven't provided even 1 characteristic to test so, at this
point, your math doesn't mean much. I can declare that Lint® has
fulfilled 2,398 prophecies, and no I'm not going to post the list. So
there. My Lint® is obviously better than your god.
That is still quite impossible. There was no massaging
of the prophecies similar to the way some people do with say the prophecies
of Nostradamus always finding some other interpretation that fits what he
wrote.
"Liz" <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message
news:ejknsv4964tios9f44r91t29jm6n46gj62@4ax.com...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:31:44 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> in news
message <bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com> wrote:
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
Please name all 456 characteristics so that we are certain that there
are no duplicates.
Liz #658 BAAWA
"Lintanetics®" by L<dot> iz
A guide to a cleaner, brighter laundry.
Guaranteed to remove lamb's blood stains.
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| User: "Phylter" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 08:36:02 AM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> astounded us with:
news:11pnsv4gta0sabcjqrbnn99ee83fteugd2@4ax.com:
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:12 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> in news
message <bqgllt022tn@enews2.newsguy.com> wrote:
Ever hear of google?
Have a site? I'm not going to spend hours trying to verify your
assertion that there are 456. It's up to you to provide your own
verification.
Yet again, the "burden of proof" raises it's inescapable head"
--
Phylter
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://www.rudraigh.com/afjc/regulars.html
Change "freeway" to "hotmail" to respond
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 10:41:33 PM |
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:12 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
Ever hear of google?
But even if there were some duplicates it wouldn't reduce the probability
that any random man could have someone wedged himself into a position to
fulfill all of them.
Why not? Why can't the author of a piece of fiction create a
character who fulfills 10,000 prophesies? 456 is a relatively small
number.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus (2nd century C.E.)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "derng" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 10:53:53 PM |
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You do realize that it wasn't a single author right, unless of course you
consider God, as one?
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:rs5osvg2vd37v9r0k9qq7dcua2s8co76t3@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:07:12 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
Ever hear of google?
But even if there were some duplicates it wouldn't reduce the probability
that any random man could have someone wedged himself into a position to
fulfill all of them.
Why not? Why can't the author of a piece of fiction create a
character who fulfills 10,000 prophesies? 456 is a relatively small
number.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They
slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any
sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of
its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins
over to its
side."
- Celsus (2nd century C.E.)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "nullus fides" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 08:44:01 AM |
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And so upon Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:53:53 -0700 didst derng speak thusly:
You do realize that it wasn't a single author right, unless of course you
consider God, as one?
So what?
In fact, that's worse. There's no telling how many times the texts were
altered by later "authors."
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 08:42:43 PM |
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:53:53 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
You do realize that it wasn't a single author right, unless of course you
consider God, as one?
You do realize that we have no idea who the author or authors of
either testament were, right? All we have is different books written
in different styles. That usually, but not always, means different
authors.
We don't even have any originals, so we can't be certain that the
differences in style weren't the result of different copyists.
--
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "derng" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 10:20:31 PM |
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Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt.html
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:0ajqsv8guvi4lacvrgmk3rmihtc03fad8e@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:53:53 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
You do realize that it wasn't a single author right, unless of course you
consider God, as one?
You do realize that we have no idea who the author or authors of
either testament were, right? All we have is different books written
in different styles. That usually, but not always, means different
authors.
We don't even have any originals, so we can't be certain that the
differences in style weren't the result of different copyists.
--
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and
it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 08:09:00 AM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have that
supports this?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "derng" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 08:31:40 AM |
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How inconsiderate of them not to have left a DVD ROM with their whole life
story included along with their resume and any other pertinent fact that any
future skeptic might 'need' to know. I suspect that much of the transmission
was by oral history - the same way even the Iliad was passed on from
generation to generation. We are just lucky that what survived, survivived.
Other civilizations have similar histories with only certain aspects of
events and peoples maintained properly until the written word recorded them
for posterity. Some of them didn't even write anything down leaving just a
few pictures scratched on a wall or crypt. It seems that some want to hold
the Bible to a different standard.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94465D6EFCD6Ewodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have that
supports this?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 11:03:43 AM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqksao12fd@enews1.newsguy.com...
How inconsiderate of them not to have left a DVD ROM with their whole life
story included along with their resume and any other pertinent fact that
any
future skeptic might 'need' to know.
Certainly not beyond the capabilities of an all powerful god. This god of
yours would have known about DVDs way back then, but alas.
I suspect that much of the transmission
was by oral history - the same way even the Iliad was passed on from
generation to generation. We are just lucky that what survived,
survivived.
Other civilizations have similar histories with only certain aspects of
events and peoples maintained properly until the written word recorded
them
for posterity. Some of them didn't even write anything down leaving just a
few pictures scratched on a wall or crypt. It seems that some want to hold
the Bible to a different standard.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94465D6EFCD6Ewodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have that
supports this?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "derng" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 11:12:09 AM |
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Christian development in the West had not developed the power to control and
use electricity yet so even if he had given them a DVD recorder they
wouldn't have been able to plug it in.
"The Holy Kafir" <x@x.x> wrote in message
news:bql51i$8r4b$1@news3.infoave.net...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqksao12fd@enews1.newsguy.com...
How inconsiderate of them not to have left a DVD ROM with their whole
life
story included along with their resume and any other pertinent fact that
any
future skeptic might 'need' to know.
Certainly not beyond the capabilities of an all powerful god. This god of
yours would have known about DVDs way back then, but alas.
I suspect that much of the transmission
was by oral history - the same way even the Iliad was passed on from
generation to generation. We are just lucky that what survived,
survivived.
Other civilizations have similar histories with only certain aspects of
events and peoples maintained properly until the written word recorded
them
for posterity. Some of them didn't even write anything down leaving just
a
few pictures scratched on a wall or crypt. It seems that some want to
hold
the Bible to a different standard.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94465D6EFCD6Ewodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have that
supports this?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 02:01:10 PM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bql5o91crk@enews1.newsguy.com...
Christian development in the West had not developed the power to control
and
use electricity yet so even if he had given them a DVD recorder they
wouldn't have been able to plug it in.
So what? He could have added a passage: "Thou shalt not use thine shiney
round do-dad until ye understand it." But he didn't. I guess your god is a
12:00 o'clock blinker, eh?
"The Holy Kafir" <x@x.x> wrote in message
news:bql51i$8r4b$1@news3.infoave.net...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqksao12fd@enews1.newsguy.com...
How inconsiderate of them not to have left a DVD ROM with their whole
life
story included along with their resume and any other pertinent fact
that
any
future skeptic might 'need' to know.
Certainly not beyond the capabilities of an all powerful god. This god
of
yours would have known about DVDs way back then, but alas.
I suspect that much of the transmission
was by oral history - the same way even the Iliad was passed on from
generation to generation. We are just lucky that what survived,
survivived.
Other civilizations have similar histories with only certain aspects
of
events and peoples maintained properly until the written word recorded
them
for posterity. Some of them didn't even write anything down leaving
just
a
few pictures scratched on a wall or crypt. It seems that some want to
hold
the Bible to a different standard.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94465D6EFCD6Ewodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have
that
supports this?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
08 Dec 2003 08:08:26 AM |
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And so upon Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:12:09 -0700 didst derng speak thusly:
Christian development in the West had not developed the power to control and
use electricity yet so even if he had given them a DVD recorder they
wouldn't have been able to plug it in.
Okay then how about pi to, oh, a thousand places or so?
I mean, hell, they sat around copying tomes anyway. And the babble is
*full of numbers. Even has a chapter named Numbers. So how about some
*real numbers? The kinds of things that could not *possibly have been
calculated at the time?
That'd go a hell of a long way to convincing me.
Which, mind you, if your "god" exists, he *knows that. So since he didn't
*do that, obviously doesn't want me to believe he exists.
So preaching at me is kind of ignoring the will of your god ennit?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
http://nullusfides.blogspot.com/
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
04 Dec 2003 12:24:59 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 3 Dec 2003 10:12:09 -0700, a stranger
called by some "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> came forth and told this
tale in alt.atheism
Christian development in the West had not developed the power to control and
use electricity yet so even if he had given them a DVD recorder they
wouldn't have been able to plug it in.
Proving that the books were written by simple men, transcribing myths.
(Oh, the Assyrians had developed a battery long before Jesus allegedly
lived. They used it to electroplate items.)
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 10:21:32 PM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in news:bqksao12fd@enews1.newsguy.com:
How inconsiderate of them not to have left a DVD ROM with their whole
life story included along with their resume and any other pertinent
fact that any future skeptic might 'need' to know. I suspect that much
of the transmission was by oral history - the same way even the Iliad
was passed on from generation to generation. We are just lucky that
what survived, survivived. Other civilizations have similar histories
with only certain aspects of events and peoples maintained properly
until the written word recorded them for posterity. Some of them
didn't even write anything down leaving just a few pictures scratched
on a wall or crypt. It seems that some want to hold the Bible to a
different standard.
How about we hold the bible to the same standard as other works which
started a oral histories -- say "The Iliad" or Plato's Atlantis... In
other words, myth and legend.
You're the one claiming that it is more than that, specifically the "word
of god" and any rational person would expect some evidence from you
supporting that contention.
So I guess maybe we do hold the bible to a different standard than you
do.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 08:31:34 AM |
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Woden wrote:
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqjoeg01ktt@enews1.newsguy.com:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Book Author *
Genesis Moses
Exodus Moses
Leviticus Moses
Numbers Moses
Deuteronomy Moses
Joshua Joshua
Judges Anonymous
Ruth Uncertain
1 Samuel Samuel and others
2 Samuel Samuel and others
1 Kings Jeremiah
2 Kings Jeremiah
1 Chronicles Ezra
2 Chronicles Ezra
Ezra Ezra
Nehemiah Nehemiah
Esther Uncertain
Job Uncertain
Psalm Various
Proverbs Solomon and others
Ecclesiastes Solomon
Song of Songs Solomon
Isaiah Isaiah
Jeremiah Jeremiah
Lamentations Jeremiah
Ezekiel Ezekiel
Daniel Daniel
Hosea Hosea
Joel Joel
Amos Amos
Obadiah Obadiah
Jonah Jonah
Micah Micah
Nahum Nahum
Habakkuk Habakkuk
Zephaniah Zephaniah
Haggai Haggai
Zechariah Zechariah
Malachi Malachi
Matthew Matthew
Mark Mark
Luke Luke
John John
Acts Luke
Romans Paul
1 Corinthians Paul
2 Corinthians Paul
Galatians Paul
Ephesians Paul
Philippians Paul
Colossians Paul
1 Thessalonians Paul
2 Thessalonians Paul
1 Timothy Paul
2 Timothy Paul
Titus Paul
Philemon Paul
Hebrews Paul
James James
1 Peter Peter
2 Peter Peter
1 John John
2 John John
3 John John
Jude Jude
Revelation John
* Based on my Ryrie, New American Standard Bible
(for some books the author is debatable)
http://www.geocities.com/johndavidmueller/print/Books_of_the_Bible-prnt
.html
Nice list. Now what evidence (other than the bible) do you have that
supports this?
Even the Bible itself doesn't support that list.
--
Fred Stone
Illegitimi non Carborundum
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 10:44:22 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:20:31 -0700, a stranger
called by some "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> came forth and told this
tale in alt.atheism
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
*snip*
And the Necronomicon was written by Adul Alhazred.
Really! Honestly! How do i know this? Because the Necronomicon says
so!
And Moby ***** was written by Ishmael. Says so in the first few lines.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 08:00:11 PM |
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On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:20:31 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
Books Of The Bible and Their Author(s)
Purported authors. We don't have any evidence that the purported
authors are the actual authors.
--
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tichy
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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