| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"derng" |
| Date: |
01 Dec 2003 02:31:44 PM |
| Object: |
Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
.... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in 10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 03:29:12 AM |
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The point is that if Mr. Jesus is the Christ does NOTBING for you,
it don't matter HOW the numbers add up...
Paul
derng wrote:
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in 10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 05:37:09 AM |
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"Paul Duca" <tomservo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3FCC5BD5.B1CD850E@comcast.net...
The point is that if Mr. Jesus is the Christ does NOTBING for
you,
it don't matter HOW the numbers add up...
Paul
That doesn't EVEN make sense/
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 05:10:13 PM |
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<snipped the maths>
as the saying goes..."there are lies..damn lies and statistics"
--
Steve
The Earth is degenerating these days. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book, and
it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
- Assyrian Stone Tablet, c.2800BC
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| User: "Samir Ribic" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 04:13:32 AM |
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"Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bqghrh$20a$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>...
<snipped the maths>
as the saying goes..."there are lies..damn lies and statistics"
For example:
I am male, Slavic, I speak Esperanto, I wrote emulator of computer ZX
Spectrum and my favorite book is "The hitchhiker's guide to galaxy".
The probability that exists yet another man with all the properties is
very low:
- To be male it is 0.5
- To be Slavic it is 400 000 000/6 000 000 000=0.06
- To write emulator of ZX spectrum it is 100/6 000 000
000=0.000000016, because only 100 men wrote emulators
- To speak Esperanto it is 2 000 000/6 000 000 000=0.000333
- To read the book The hitchhiker's guide to galaxy it is
15 000 000 / 6 000 000 000 = 0.0025 , because the book is printed in
15000000 copies. Assuming that one of ten readers of this book
consider it as favorite book, the probability that this is your
favorite book is 0.00025
All these events look independent. Therefore probability that exists
yet another man with all these attributes is
5*(10^-1)*6*(10^-2)*1.6*(10^-8)*3.33*(10^-4)*2.5*(10^-4)=
399.996*(10^-19), about 4*(10^-16)
So it looks impossible, even if you include all the people born before
invention of ZX Spectrum, Douglas Adams, Zamenhof and first mentions
of Slavic peoples.
However, there is yet another men in Slovakia who has all there
attributes!
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| User: "G" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 04:39:50 AM |
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On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Samir Ribic wrote:
"Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bqghrh$20a$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>...
<snipped the maths>
as the saying goes..."there are lies..damn lies and statistics"
For example:
I am male, Slavic, I speak Esperanto, I wrote emulator of computer ZX
Spectrum and my favorite book is "The hitchhiker's guide to galaxy".
The probability that exists yet another man with all the properties is
very low:
- To be male it is 0.5
- To be Slavic it is 400 000 000/6 000 000 000=0.06
- To write emulator of ZX spectrum it is 100/6 000 000
000=0.000000016, because only 100 men wrote emulators
- To speak Esperanto it is 2 000 000/6 000 000 000=0.000333
- To read the book The hitchhiker's guide to galaxy it is
15 000 000 / 6 000 000 000 = 0.0025 , because the book is printed in
15000000 copies. Assuming that one of ten readers of this book
consider it as favorite book, the probability that this is your
favorite book is 0.00025
All these events look independent. Therefore probability that exists
yet another man with all these attributes is
5*(10^-1)*6*(10^-2)*1.6*(10^-8)*3.33*(10^-4)*2.5*(10^-4)=
399.996*(10^-19), about 4*(10^-16)
So it looks impossible, even if you include all the people born before
invention of ZX Spectrum, Douglas Adams, Zamenhof and first mentions
of Slavic peoples.
However, there is yet another men in Slovakia who has all there
attributes!
Wow! And the probability of that would be 1.6*10^-31 ! :)
You should write a prophecy about this amazing coincidence.
--
Eternal Lands: www.eternal-lands.com
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 07:46:28 PM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
<snip crap>
<subject>
Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ = 0
--
Blast Femur
______________
"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes talking
to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"
-Paul Provenza
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| User: "nullus fides" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 09:01:25 PM |
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And so upon Tue, 02 Dec 2003 01:46:28 +0000 didst Blast Femur speak
thusly:
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
<snip crap>
<subject>
Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ = 0
Hm...
More like "probabitity Jesus is the Christ = 1" but "probability this
means anything at all = 0"
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 08:18:36 PM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does the science of probability make of this?
Wow! A bible character has 456 identifying characteristics specified
where? IN THE BIBLE!
Circular reference, clown.
Which renders the rest of your post *****.
NEXT!
--
Blast Femur
______________
"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes
talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"
-Paul Provenza
.
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 03:50:38 PM |
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TV's Blast Femur wrote:
"dung" <dung@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact,
what does the science of probability make of this?
Wow! A bible character has 456 identifying characteristics specified
where? IN THE BIBLE!
The bible is true because it SAYS that it's true!
</fundie>
--
Swayin' to the rhythm of the new world order
Count the bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drum
aa #2133
apatriot #19
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| User: "Jim07D3" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 03:58:58 PM |
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"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> said:
TV's Blast Femur wrote:
"dung" <dung@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact,
what does the science of probability make of this?
Wow! A bible character has 456 identifying characteristics specified
where? IN THE BIBLE!
The bible is true because it SAYS that it's true!
</fundie>
How does a allegations get into the Bible? Just like how allegations
get into the State of the Union Address. By supporting the predefined
propaganda. How do texts get excluded? Let's guess. When did this
happen? 300 years after the supposed facts.
Jim07D3
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| User: "Bill Litchfield" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 03:33:05 PM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell
says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
This has to be the biggest bunch of crap that I've seen on these groups so
far! You Fundies must really be getting desperate for converts...or maybe
you're just trying to re-assure yourselves. Pathetic.
Shalom,
Bill
.
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| User: "Ineedmoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
07 Dec 2003 09:04:01 AM |
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"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
Looks like you skipped a step. Prove he "fulfilled all of them". (all of
what I dont know)
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
lol
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length,
hahahaha
and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
I bet thats a lie.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah,
It doesnt refer to Jesus. Matthew butchered the original context.
Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
How many lies do you want to tell in one post? You havent even proved this
man existed yet!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward!
Just wait till someone writes their own made up mythology.
As apologist Josh McDowell says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
He is quite a big liar.
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
A FACT!??! HAHAHAHAHAA. Funny how much you lie.
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "Peter" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
07 Dec 2003 01:36:57 PM |
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TELL ME ONE PROPHECY THAT JESUS GUY FULFILLED.
--
Peter
http://atcoalition.showsit.info/
http://main.faithfreedom.org/
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
"Ineedmoney" <mail@atmycomputer.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bqvfh9$g7p$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
Looks like you skipped a step. Prove he "fulfilled all of them". (all of
what I dont know)
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability
has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies
made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve
different
classes representing some 600 university students.
lol
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy
at
length,
hahahaha
and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
I bet thats a lie.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American
Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah,
It doesnt refer to Jesus. Matthew butchered the original context.
Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same
period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was
one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
How many lies do you want to tell in one post? You havent even proved this
man existed yet!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores
the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company
is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward!
Just wait till someone writes their own made up mythology.
As apologist Josh McDowell says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
He is quite a big liar.
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance
is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance
in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think
that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
A FACT!??! HAHAHAHAHAA. Funny how much you lie.
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks
to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will
be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the
end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God
is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ
to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
|
|
|
| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
07 Dec 2003 02:40:34 PM |
|
|
"Peter" <peterusa@optonline.net> wrote
TELL ME ONE PROPHECY THAT JESUS GUY FULFILLED.
Well, there was that two-for-one breakfast special at Denny's....
.
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| User: "Geoff Offermann" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 03:46:35 PM |
|
|
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
Wow, 456, eh?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability
Having been stewed in statistics and probability for about 25 years now, I
would LOVE to see those calculations and those...cough...assumptions.
of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
Would you believe that my grandfather fulfilled 478 prophecies? His
disciples and I are going to get around to documenting it, oh say, within
the next 50 years. Our god kicks your god's *****.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
Did they discuss with Biblical scholars to whom the prophecies should apply.
Many of the prophecies attributed to have been fulfilled by Jesus were
intended for another.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
Wow! The American Scientific Affiliation. Very impressive name. Let's check
out their credentials. Their journal is Perspectives on Science and
Christian Faith.
The American Scientific Affiliation was founded in 1941 by five Christian
scientists. John Haitsma, Russell Sturgis, Irving Cowperthaite and
(ohmygosh) Peter Stoner. Go figure.
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
The cited prophecy was to foretell the coming of a new King of Israel. Jesus
was not a king.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
It depends on what population you're talking about. For people from
Bethlehem, the probability is significantly higher.
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Either that or the people who wrote the Bible chose to write Jesus'
biography with as much Judaic athoritative background as possible. Heck,
even they couldn't agree on where Jesus was born. John said Jesus was born
in Nazareth.
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
I may be foolish, but not on this account.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward!
And I'm sure the burden of proof will be much higher for my grandfather. We
have written that he was born in Bethlehem, but we have no birth
certificate. He was a King of Israel. His last name was King and he attended
Israel Putnam Elementary in Meriden, CT.
I can go on and on, but this is boring me.
snip
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 10:39:03 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:46:35 GMT, "Geoff Offermann"
<gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
The cited prophecy was to foretell the coming of a new King of Israel. Jesus
was not a king.
And Bethlehem Ephrathah is a clan, not a place. Anyone making just
that one mistake is not to be taken seriously about the bible.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
It depends on what population you're talking about. For people from
Bethlehem, the probability is significantly higher.
The chance of anyone being born in Bethlehem around 2,000 years ago is
slightly less than the chance that I was born on Mars. Bethlehem had
been an uninhabited ruin for a long time back then, and wasn't
reinhabited until well after anyone born 2,000 years ago had died of
old age. Another error anyone who knows real history (as opposed to
biblical assertion) would know.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
|
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| User: "Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 01:36:46 PM |
|
|
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com>...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact,
what does the science of probability make of this?
Blah, blah, blah. "Identifying characteristics" my *****. You jackasses
want to "sound" scientific but you have no clue what "scientific"
means. Please list these "456 identifying characteristics."
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 03:45:44 PM |
|
|
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
Subject: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ
0.00000000000% chance.
100.0000000000% chance you're a kook.
--
Dr. Smartass
BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"When you're slapped, you'll take it and like it!" -- Sam Spade
.
|
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 07:21:25 PM |
|
|
"Doc Smartass" <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9444A0300EC5Baskifyouwantit@216.77.188.18...
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com:
Subject: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ
0.00000000000% chance.
100.0000000000% chance you're a kook.
Having just viewed a page that contained the "prophesy" and the gospel
portion that filled it I can assure you that the probability of any man
filling it who lived at that time was high.
Since we know that Bethlehem was not a city at the time and that the
reference in Micah, vague as it is is to a person or tribe there is positive
evidence that Matthew (Not a Jew) just wrote to make things fit.
Something written well after the event with no contemporary records can be
made to look very good.
.
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| User: "B. Corporel" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 09:50:20 AM |
|
|
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
Moody Press, a part of The Moody Bible Institute http://www.moody.edu/
Your source is biased.
There are no gods, that's just the true-believers' delusional disorder
(impaired contact with reality, believing that one's imaginings are real)
http://www.psychologynet.org/delusion.html .
.
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| User: "B. Corporel" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 09:51:04 AM |
|
|
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
Moody Press, a part of The Moody Bible Institute http://www.moody.edu/
Your source is biased.
There are no gods, that's just the true-believers' delusional disorder
(impaired contact with reality, believing that one's imaginings are real)
http://www.psychologynet.org/delusion.html .
.
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| User: "nullus fides" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 05:43:14 PM |
|
|
And so upon Mon, 01 Dec 2003 13:31:44 -0700 didst derng speak thusly:
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what does
the science of probability make of this?
Simple.
The "prophetic" stuff was lying around when they wrote the "new testament"
so it was *easy to make the "new testament" fit whatever "prophecies" they
wanted when they wrote it...
.
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| User: "The Holy Kafir" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
01 Dec 2003 07:24:02 PM |
|
|
Circular logic
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell
says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Nakas" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 04:13:41 PM |
|
|
I was born on June 2nd, 1971. Now the odds of that, given that the universe
is 15 billion years old, is on the order of 10^-18. Does that mean I was
sent to earth by god too?
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell
says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
08 Dec 2003 08:05:42 AM |
|
|
And so upon Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:13:41 +0000 didst Nakas speak thusly:
I was born on June 2nd, 1971. Now the odds of that, given that the universe
is 15 billion years old, is on the order of 10^-18. Does that mean I was
sent to earth by god too?
Even worse, can you *imagine the number of possible genetic combinations
that "could've been?"
Wow.
All those possible combinations coming together so you could be born on
just *one day out of the billions of billions of them.
It's... it's... a murkul!!!!!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
http://nullusfides.blogspot.com/
.
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|
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|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
04 Dec 2003 12:26:38 PM |
|
|
Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:13:41 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Nakas" <nakas@comcast.net> came forth and told this
tale in alt.atheism
I was born on June 2nd, 1971. Now the odds of that, given that the universe
is 15 billion years old, is on the order of 10^-18. Does that mean I was
sent to earth by god too?
I was born on July 4th, 1966. My sister was born on July 4th, 1971.
We were born in the same room at Good Samaritan Hospital. Want to
figure the odds of that happening? Or two kids being born on
Independence Day to a British father?
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
.
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| User: "derng" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 07:14:14 PM |
|
|
Your mother's doctor couldn't even 'predict' that day the day before you
were born. And as long as you are interested in numbers, even the number of
hairs on your head are numbered. Today with computers people should be able
to easily appreciate how God can track each and every thing about us
including our actions throughout our life. We will all be shocked on
Judgment Day to realize just how 1. short our life was, and 2. that God saw
our every move.
"Nakas" <nakas@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:petzb.293765$9E1.1494404@attbi_s52...
I was born on June 2nd, 1971. Now the odds of that, given that the
universe
is 15 billion years old, is on the order of 10^-18. Does that mean I was
sent to earth by god too?
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability
has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies
made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve
different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy
at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American
Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same
period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was
one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores
the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company
is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell
says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance
is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance
in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think
that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks
to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will
be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the
end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God
is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ
to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "Varicose Brain" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
03 Dec 2003 09:52:21 PM |
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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 18:14:14 -0700, "derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your mother's doctor couldn't even 'predict' that day the day before you
were born. And as long as you are interested in numbers, even the number of
hairs on your head are numbered.
Of course, that doesn't take into account male pattern baldness or
beards and mustaches.
Today with computers people should be able
to easily appreciate how God can track each and every thing about us
including our actions throughout our life.
Computers weren't around back in biblical times, and I doubt that any
god could have foreseen their invention.
We will all be shocked on
Judgment Day to realize just how 1. short our life was, and 2. that God saw
our every move.
2000+ years and there's been no judgement day. The odds aren't looking
too good of that happening anytime soon.
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
11 Dec 2003 12:53:20 AM |
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derng wrote:
Your mother's doctor couldn't even 'predict' that day the day before you
were born. And as long as you are interested in numbers, even the number of
hairs on your head are numbered. Today with computers people should be able
to easily appreciate how God can track each and every thing about us
including our actions throughout our life. We will all be shocked on
Judgment Day to realize just how 1. short our life was, and 2. that God saw
our every move.
but 3. not shocked when God fails to give us money and material
goods and social status.
Paul
"Nakas" <nakas@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:petzb.293765$9E1.1494404@attbi_s52...
I was born on June 2nd, 1971. Now the odds of that, given that the
universe
is 15 billion years old, is on the order of 10^-18. Does that mean I was
sent to earth by god too?
"derng" <derng@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqg8oc01s6q@enews4.newsguy.com...
Excerpts from http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm
... Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, ...he had 456 identifying
characteristics well in advance, and fulfilled them all! In fact, what
does
the science of probability make of this?
The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given
event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability
has
been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are
fixed
according to statistical probabilities.
Professor Emeritus of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, has
calculated the probability of one man fulfilling the major prophecies
made
concerning the Messiah. The estimates were worked out by twelve
different
classes representing some 600 university students.
The students carefully weighed all the factors, discussed each prophecy
at
length, and examined the various circumstances which might indicate that
men
had conspired together to fulfill a particular prophecy. They made their
estimates conservative enough so that there was finally unanimous
agreement
even among the most skeptical students.
However Professor Stoner then took their estimates, and made them even
more
conservative. He also encouraged other skeptics or scientists to make
their
own estimates to see if his conclusions were more than fair. Finally, he
submitted his figures for review to a committee of the American
Scientific
Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were
dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented
(Peter Stoner, Science Speaks, Chicago: Moody Press, 1969, 4).
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be
born
in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average
population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they
divided it by the average population of the earth during the same
period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was
one
in
300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they
conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight
prophecies was one in 10^17.
From these figures, Professor Stoner, concludes the fulfillment of these
eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of the
prophecies (Idem, 107) - the likelihood of mere chance is only one in
10^17!
Another way of saying this is that any person who minimizes or ignores
the
significance of the biblical identifying signs concerning the Messiah
would
be foolish.
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another
calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies (Idem, 109) (even though he could
have used Edersheim's 456), and arrived at the extremely conservative
estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one
person
is the incredible number 10^157. In fact, if anybody can find someone,
living or dead, other than Jesus, who can fulfill only half of the
predictions concerning the Messiah given in the book "Messiah in Both
Testaments" by Fred J. Meldau, the Christian Victory Publishing Company
is
ready to give a ONE thousand dollar reward! As apologist Josh McDowell
says,
"There are a lot of men in the universities that could use some extra
cash!"
(Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, California: Campus
Crusade
for Christ, 175).
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the
probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance
is
vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance
in
10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think
that
they will ever occur (Ankerberg et. al., op. cit., 21).
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is
rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in
the
world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ that even mathematicians and
statisticians, who were without faith, had to acknowledge that it is
scientifically impossible to deny that Jesus is the Christ. our thanks
to
David Williams, a mathematician who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, sir, God so thoroughly vindicated Jesus Christ the unbeliever will
be
speechless at the judgment. But Jesus Christ was sent to Israel at the
end
of their dispensation, when their denominations were apostate. And God
is
no
respecter of persons. He promised to reveal and vindicate Jesus Christ
to
us
Gentiles at the end of our dispensation, when our denominations are
apostate.
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Mathematical Probability that Jesus is the Christ |
02 Dec 2003 06:44:40 AM |
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|
In alt.atheism on Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:31:44 -0700, "derng"
<derng@hotmail.com> let us all know that:
The probability is 0. He filled 0 prophecies. He supposedly did
miracles, which is the sign of a FALSE prophet.
And Josh McDowell is a proven liar and fraud.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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