| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Thurston Phoremost" |
| Date: |
17 Oct 2003 03:01:10 AM |
| Object: |
Maybe these Xtians are useful after all? |
Department of Credit Where Credit Due Dept?
http://www.gospelcom.net/moh/WinkPrat/DTM/ContractOnChildrenPart2.htm
(...)
Yet a protected childhood is a relatively new thing, introduced by
Christian reformers. Only a century ago, children in England were made
to work in coal mines because they were considered the only ones with
bones flexible enough for the horrifying conditions. Imagine the
terror of their days in the mine shafts.
Human Flesh Was Cheaper
The simplest job was being a "trapper." A child was lowered 50 feet
down a shaft to squat in the mud in total darkness with trickling
water, beetles, and rats, waiting to open the trap door for other
children pulling coal cars. He would let the coal through and then
close the trap door again. That way, if there was a mine explosion, it
only killed the children between the doors. The trap doors cut off the
exploding gas from spreading further. Little children, seven or eight
years old, would sit in the dark every day, sometimes 18 to 20 hours,
listening for the coal cars. Some went insane. Yet in the mines, that
was the best job.
The children suffered terrible cruelty at the hands of adults, who
bargained for them, used them, and dismissed them as they pleased.
Many working underground were only eight or nine years old, girls as
well as boys. Some began toiling in the pits when they were only four
or five. They only saw the sun on Sundays. There were no hours of
relaxation, their meals were mostly eaten in the dark, and they lived
with parents who devoted them to this life.
Think about the actual pulling of the coal cars. Women or small
children had to crawl on their hands and knees dragging enormous
weights along narrow passageways that were only 18 to 24 inches in
height, and were as wet and slimy as common sewers. Women remained at
this work until the last hour of pregnancy. Boys and girls performed
the work by using a girdle and chain. A girdle was put around their
naked waist. A chain from the carriage was hooked to the girdle and
passed between their legs. Crawling on hands and knees they drew the
carriages after them.
"It is not necessary to describe," says Shaftesbury, the Christian
politician who fought against this horror for most of his life, "how
their sides were blistered, their ankles stained, their backs chafed
from rubbing against the roofs, or how they stumbled in the darkness
and choked in the stifling atmosphere. It is enough to say they were
obliged to do the work of horses or other beasts of the field, only
because human flesh and blood was cheaper in some cases and horse
labor was impossible in others."
(...)
.
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| User: "Dude Blion" |
|
| Title: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
12 Nov 2003 05:57:26 PM |
|
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(Karen J) wrote in message news:<2855c1c7.0311061102.4bcb8769@posting.google.com>...
Binyamin Dissen <postingid@dissensoftware.com>:
Don't worry about it.
She and her ilk also believe that Jews - fighting back - is equally "an
outrageous violation of Judaism's basic tenets and heritage".
(Karen J):
It's OK to fight back.
But do it with links and quotes.
Not slurs.
Yeah.
Good idea.
Give me your two best quotes.
Indicating that I don't think you should fight back.
Or that kosher slaughter is just fine the way it is now.
Here's a couple of links, but I haven't had
time to distill my favorite quotes yet. Sorry.
Oh, and they're on YOUR side, not Dissen's.
----------
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
In 1996, Viva! launched its campaign against the religious killing of
conscious animals. Under UK law, all farmed animals have to be stunned
to render them unconscious before their throats are cut. However, a
special legal exemption means that animals slaughtered, "by a
religious method" - i.e. for halal or kosher meat - are exempt from
this law and can have their throats cut whilst fully conscious. The
terror and pain which these animals experience is immense. They are
held in metal crushes or forced onto their backs before having their
necks forcibly extended and their throats slashed. Death can take
minutes.
[more...]
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
---------------------
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/index.htm
Our campaign recently received a significant boost when the Farm
Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) echoed our call for repeal. FAWC is a
prestigious government-appointed advisory body which is funded and
supported by the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs (DEFRA). Its Report on the Welfare of Farmed Animals at
Slaughter or Killing (DEFRA 2003) bluntly dismissed claims that the
use of a very sharp knife in the hands of a skilled operator means
that halal and shechita killing is humane. They wrote:
When a very large transverse incision is made across the neck a number
of vital tissues are transected . . . We are persuaded that such a
massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in
the period before insensibility supervenes. (Para 195)
The scientific evidence shows that sheep become insensible
[unconscious] within 5-7 seconds of the cut . . . adult cattle,
however, may take between 22 and 40 seconds. This period may be
extended . . . Work done on calves has shown a variation in period to
insensibility from 10-120 seconds. (Para 198)
They concluded:
Council considers that slaughter without stunning is unacceptable and
that the Government should repeal the current exemption. (Para 201)
FAWC made the same recommendation in 1985 but no Government, at the
time or since, acted upon it. Viva! wrote to Animal Welfare Minister
Ben Bradshaw in June to seek his response to the Council's call. He
replied that the Government was considering the report as a whole and
would not comment on the question of religious slaughter
independently. In other words, the Government is taking no action at
present.
[more...]
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/index.htm
.
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|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
15 Nov 2003 06:30:22 PM |
|
|
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
karen715j@yahoo.com (Karen J) wrote in message
news:<2855c1c7.0311061102.4bcb8769@posting.google.com>...
Binyamin Dissen <postingid@dissensoftware.com>:
Don't worry about it.
She and her ilk also believe that Jews - fighting back - is equally
"an
outrageous violation of Judaism's basic tenets and heritage".
karen715j@yahoo.com (Karen J):
It's OK to fight back.
But do it with links and quotes.
Not slurs.
Yeah.
Good idea.
Give me your two best quotes.
Indicating that I don't think you should fight back.
Or that kosher slaughter is just fine the way it is now.
Here's a couple of links, but I haven't had
time to distill my favorite quotes yet. Sorry.
Oh, and they're on YOUR side, not Dissen's.
----------
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
15 Nov 2003 10:46:41 PM |
|
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"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
Ooops - now it's your turn!
Susan
.
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| User: "pearl" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
15 Nov 2003 07:46:23 PM |
|
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"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
by Richard H. Schwartz, Ph. D.
In promoting vegetarianism since 1977, I have been arguing that Jews
have a choice as to whether or not to be vegetarians. In support of the
view that Jews need not eat meat today is the Talmud (Pesachim 109a
states that since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews are
not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on festivals), scholarly articles
by Rabbi Alfred Cohen and Rabbi J. David Bleich that indicate additional
sources and arguments supporting the view that Jews do not need to eat
meat in this period, and the fact that several Chief Rabbis are strict
vegetarians.
Through my book, Judaism and Vegetarianism, articles, and talks, I have
tried to help make Jews more aware of Jewish mandates to take care of
our health, treat animals with compassion, protect the environment,
conserve resources, and help hungry people, and how far the realities
related to the production and consumption of animal products are from
these mandates. I have hoped that sensitive, committed Jews, "rachamim
b'nei rachamim" (compassionate children of compassionate ancestors),
once they were aware of these discrepancies, would switch to vegetarian
diets. While this has happened in some cases, the vast majority of Jews
still consume animal products.
Hence, I am starting to think about the argument that committed Jews are
not only permitted but are obligated to be vegetarians. This article aims to
further respectful dialogue on this question, in order to determine a position
most consistent with Jewish values.
Hence, comments and suggestions are very welcome.
First we will present the case for those who take halacha (Jewish law as
interpreted by Jewish sages and rabbis) seriously. A fundamental question
for such people is: since Jews can only kill animals for an essential human
need, and it is not necessary to consume animal products in order to maintain
good health (the contrary is the case), aren't observant
Jews obligated to be vegetarians?
Points in support of this argument include:
1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
killed to meet a basic human need. For example, in an essay on "Animals",
in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals must
be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out that
"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only discouraged
in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
2. There are many people who abstain completely from animal products
and yet lead very healthy lives. Many degenerative diseases, including
heart disease, stroke, and several types of cancer have been related to
animal-based diets.
3. Jewish sages and others thought that meat was necessary for proper
nutrition. Maimonides, for example, stated that it is the need of procuring
food that necessitates the slaying of animals, and thus the laws of shechita
were established in order to minimize the animal's pain during the slaughtering
process. However, modern science has found that all necessary nutrients
can be obtained from plant foods, with the possible exception of vitamin B12,
which can easily be obtained by enriched cereals, soy milk, or yeasts, or a
vegetarian vitamin supplement. [.. or organically manured plant foods- L.]
Next, we will consider the possibility of obligation for Jews who are committed
to being Jewish, but do not attempt to live their lives according to halacha.
It is assumed that these people wish to live according to Jewish ideals and
values, but do not base their practices completely on Jewish law, although
Jewish law is also based on these values. Hence, they should be impressed
by the following argument:
In view of Judaism's strong teachings with regard to preserving human health,
treating animals with compassion, protecting the environment, conserving
resources, and helping the hungry, and the very negative effects that the
production and consumption of meat has in each of these areas, shouldn't
committed Jews who take Jewish values seriously be vegetarians?
It should be noted that many of the values discussed in this question are also
relevant to halachic Jews, since the mandates to take care of our health
(v'nishmartem meod l'nafshotechem, Deuteronomy 4:9), to treat animals
with compassion, to conserve resources, and to help hungry people are
Torah teachings.
The above question can be reinforced with the following comparisons:
1) While Judaism mandates that people be very careful about preserving
their health and their lives, animal-centred diets have been linked to
heart disease, stroke, several forms of cancer, and other illnesses. This
has contributed to recent soaring medical expenditures in the United States
and major change in the health care system, with insurance providers
having a major voice in medical decisions.
2) While Judaism mandates compassion for animals, most farm animals
are raised for food today under cruel conditions in small confined spaces
where they are denied fulfilment of their instinctual needs.
3) While Judaism stresses that we are to share our bread with hungry
people, over 70% of the grain grown in the United States is fed to animals
destined for slaughter, as 15 to 20 million people worldwide die annually
because of hunger and its effects.
4) While Judaism teaches that "the earth is the L-rd`s" and that we are
to be partners with G-d in preserving the world, animal-centred diets
contribute substantially to soil erosion and depletion, extensive air
and water pollution related to chemical fertilizer and pesticides, the
destruction of tropical rain forests and other habitats, and global warming.
5) While Judaism mandates bal tashchit, that we are not to waste or
unnecessarily destroy anything of value, livestock agriculture requires
far more food, land, water, energy, and other resources than plant-based
agriculture.
6) While Judaism stresses that we must seek and pursue peace and
that violence results from unjust conditions, animal-centred diets, by
wasting valuable resources, help to perpetuate the widespread hunger
and poverty that frequently lead to instability and war.
Another concern for committed Jews is tikkun olam, the general mandate
to preserve and protect the world, and, when necessary, to restore it to
a less polluted state. It is becoming increasingly apparent that vegetarianism
is not only an important individual choice today, but it is a societal imperative
because of the severe economic and environmental costs of animal-based
diets. In 1993, almost 1,700 of the world's scientists from 70 countries,
including 104 Nobel laureates, signed a "World Scientists Warning to
Humanity", which stated that:
"a great change in our stewardship of the earth and the life on it is
required if vast human misery is to be avoided and our global home
on this planet is not to be irretrievably mutilated."
Judaism teaches that Jews are to be partners and co-workers with G-d
in preserving the earth. This requires active involvement today, and an
essential part of that involvement is a switch to vegetarian diets.
The above seems to provide a strong case for the proposition that Jews
who take Jewish values and/or Jewish law seriously should be vegetarians.
However, there may be a problem in terms of the all-or-nothing nature of
that assertion. Someone might argue that, because of the Jewish mandate
to take care of our health, we should never have a piece of cake, or because
of the Jewish mandate to preserve the environment, we should never use a
car except in cases of emergency or absolute necessity. In an ideal world
with ideal people, we can perhaps advocate such absolutes. But in our real
world, it is best to advocate that people be aware of modern realities and
apply Jewish values in a conscientious but reasonable way.
In view of these considerations, rather than stating that committed Jews
are obligated to be vegetarians, I believe that it is best to advocate that
they are obligated to be aware of how realities related to the production
and consumption of meat sharply diverge from Jewish mandates to preserve
human health, treat animals with compassion, protect the environment,
conserve resources, share with hungry people, and seek and pursue
peace, and then to make a decision with regard to their diets that they
believe is consistent with that awareness. A consideration of these issues
should become an important part of the curriculum of Jewish schools, and
rabbis and other Jewish leaders should see that it becomes part of an
ongoing dialogue at synagogues and Jewish centres and in the Jewish media.
It would also be extremely helpful if a commission composed of rabbinic,
health, scientific, and agricultural experts were set up to study the many
issues related to animal-centred diets and how they impinge on halacha
and basic Jewish values, in order to assess whether Jews today should
reduce their consumption of animal products. The future of Judaism and
of our precious, but imperiled, planet is at stake.
http://www.ivu.org/jvs/articles.htm
.
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|
| User: "TonyaK911" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
15 Nov 2003 07:49:06 PM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.ht
m
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
< snip>
and basic Jewish values, in order to assess whether Jews today should
reduce their consumption of animal products. The future of Judaism and
of our precious, but imperiled, planet is at stake.
The future of Judaism and the future of our planet (the planet where every
third person is going to sleep hungry tonight) depend on many many things -
less of all on following vegetarian whim...
"We all started hunting and fishing when we were seven years old. Yeah, we
saw Bambi. We got over it."
- Southern Rules, #4
TK9
.
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| User: "pearl" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 08:41:09 AM |
|
|
"TonyaK911" <TonK911@excite.com> wrote in message
news:mIAtb.2323$n56.247@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.ht
m
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
< snip>
and basic Jewish values, in order to assess whether Jews today should
reduce their consumption of animal products. The future of Judaism and
of our precious, but imperiled, planet is at stake.
The future of Judaism and the future of our planet (the planet where every
third person is going to sleep hungry tonight) depend on many many things -
less of all on following vegetarian whim...
'The problem is that corporate-driven agriculture, after it "encloses"
land and evicts the farm communities from these lands, does not grow
staple foods for the hungry. Global corporations favor high-profit luxury
items like flowers, sugarcane, beef, shrimp, cotton, coffee, and soybeans
for export to wealthy countries. Local people are often left with nothing.
In Africa, where severe famines have occurred in the past decade,
industrialized agriculture has not produced foods for the people, but
rather record crops of cotton and sugarcane. As export crops and
livestock use up available land, small farmers are forced to use marginal,
less fertile lands. Staple food production for local use plummets and
hunger increases. In fact, one could classify the world's population
into three groups: about 1.2 billion "overconsumers" who eat the
equivalent of 850 kilograms of grain each year, mostly in the form of
animal products or other "luxury" foods; 3.5 billion "sustainers" who
consume the equivalent of 350 kilograms of grain in a mixed diet; and
1.2 billion who are surviving on only 150 kilograms or less each year.
With this understanding, it is not surprising that during industrial
agriculture's prime years (1970--90), the number of hungry people in
every country except China actually increased by more than 11 percent.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13900
"We all started hunting and fishing when we were seven years old. Yeah, we
saw Bambi. We got over it."
- Southern Rules, #4
'Got over it'? What? Your compassion, your humanity?
1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
killed to meet a basic human need. For example, in an essay on "Animals",
in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals must
be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out that
"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only discouraged
in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
http://www.ivu.org/jvs/articles.htm
.
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| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 08:58:59 AM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp821d$5fi$1@kermit.esat.net...
"TonyaK911" <TonK911@excite.com> wrote in message
news:mIAtb.2323$n56.247@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.ht
m
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
< snip>
and basic Jewish values, in order to assess whether Jews today should
reduce their consumption of animal products. The future of Judaism and
of our precious, but imperiled, planet is at stake.
The future of Judaism and the future of our planet (the planet where
every
third person is going to sleep hungry tonight) depend on many many
things -
less of all on following vegetarian whim...
'The problem is that corporate-driven agriculture, after it "encloses"
land and evicts the farm communities from these lands,
And none of this changes the fact that Viva! is an antisemitic/anti-Arab
group which has decided to target shechita and halal specifically. The proof
is that their propaganda contains numerous "testimonials" from non-Jewish
slaughterers which include statements about the *cruelty* of shechita (as
opposed to other methods of slaughter) as well as a great deal of character
assassination of the Jewish slaughterers and unfounded projections regarding
supposed hidden agendas.
does not grow
staple foods for the hungry.
And again, this is not related in any way, shape, or form to anything in
Judaism or the torah.
[snipped remainder for brevity]
1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
killed to meet a basic human need. For example, in an essay on "Animals",
in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals must
be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out
that
"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only
discouraged
in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
Yes, I agree that *hunting for sport* is not permitted in Judaism. This is
because the meat of an animal killed by a method other than shechita (ritual
slaughter) is not kosher. The rabbi is not delegitimizing eating shechted
meat (if he were, he would be in a serious violation of Jewish law); he is
only condemning hunting for sport. From a Jewish perspective, eating meat
is perfectly legitimate and not frivolous at all. As I stated previously,
the torah mandates the sacrifices/eating meat when the temple stands. And
even without the temple, the Rambam and our sages mandated it in the talmud
for the celebration of shabbos and yom tov. There is no such thing as an
Orthodox rabbi who would ever say that Jews shouldn't eat meat or are
obligated to be vegetarians. To say such a thing would be to
contradict/refute halacha and the entire torah.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
|
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| User: "pearl" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:24:35 AM |
|
|
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:TgMtb.112553$ZC4.78516@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp821d$5fi$1@kermit.esat.net...
"TonyaK911" <TonK911@excite.com> wrote in message
news:mIAtb.2323$n56.247@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
<..>
'The problem is that corporate-driven agriculture, after it "encloses"
land and evicts the farm communities from these lands,
And none of this
Maybe you should keep to replies to you.
changes the fact that Viva! is an antisemitic/anti-Arab
Nonsense. You're dishonestly playing the race card.
group which has decided to target shechita and halal specifically. The proof
is that their propaganda contains numerous "testimonials" from non-Jewish
slaughterers which include statements about the *cruelty* of shechita (as
opposed to other methods of slaughter) as well as a great deal of character
assassination of the Jewish slaughterers and unfounded projections regarding
supposed hidden agendas.
BS. Who better to provide testimony than slaughterers that have witnessed
the *cruelty* involved in shechita. A great deal of character assassination, and
unfounded projections regarding supposed hidden agendas is what you are doing.
does not grow staple foods for the hungry.
And again, this is not related in any way, shape, or form to anything in
Judaism or the torah.
Then you are unworthy of inclusion in "rachamim b'nei rachamim"
(compassionate children of compassionate ancestors).
Jewish text and tradition provides a clear mandate to
work towards the eradication of hunger.
What Jewish texts say about our mandate to fight hunger;
http://www.mazon.org/pages/Jewish%20Sources.pdf
[snipped remainder for brevity]
1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
killed to meet a basic human need. For example, in an essay on "Animals",
in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals must
be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out that
"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only discouraged
in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
Yes, I agree that *hunting for sport* is not permitted in Judaism. This is
because the meat of an animal killed by a method other than shechita (ritual
slaughter) is not kosher. The rabbi is not delegitimizing eating shechted
meat (if he were, he would be in a serious violation of Jewish law); he is
only condemning hunting for sport. From a Jewish perspective, eating meat
is perfectly legitimate and not frivolous at all. As I stated previously,
the torah mandates the sacrifices/eating meat when the temple stands. And
even without the temple, the Rambam and our sages mandated it in the talmud
for the celebration of shabbos and yom tov. There is no such thing as an
Orthodox rabbi who would ever say that Jews shouldn't eat meat or are
obligated to be vegetarians. To say such a thing would be to
contradict/refute halacha and the entire torah.
See other post.
.
|
|
|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:48:36 AM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp84iq$7k0$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TgMtb.112553$ZC4.78516@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
What Jewish texts say about our mandate to fight hunger;
http://www.mazon.org/pages/Jewish%20Sources.pdf
[snipped remainder for brevity]
-------------
I read every single quotation. Every single one of them was about giving
food and money to the poor. As I stated, giving tzedakah is a very Jewish
value, and I highly recommend it. Not one single cite from this website
mentioned anything at all about not eating meat.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:45:23 AM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp84iq$7k0$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:TgMtb.112553$ZC4.78516@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp821d$5fi$1@kermit.esat.net...
"TonyaK911" <TonK911@excite.com> wrote in message
news:mIAtb.2323$n56.247@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
<..>
'The problem is that corporate-driven agriculture, after it "encloses"
land and evicts the farm communities from these lands,
And none of this
Maybe you should keep to replies to you.
This sentence doesn't make sense.
changes the fact that Viva! is an antisemitic/anti-Arab
Nonsense. You're dishonestly playing the race card.
When the focus of the attack is only shechita and halal and not other
methods of slaughter, it speaks for itself.
group which has decided to target shechita and halal specifically. The
proof
is that their propaganda contains numerous "testimonials" from
non-Jewish
slaughterers which include statements about the *cruelty* of shechita
(as
opposed to other methods of slaughter) as well as a great deal of
character
assassination of the Jewish slaughterers and unfounded projections
regarding
supposed hidden agendas.
BS. Who better to provide testimony than slaughterers that have witnessed
the *cruelty* involved in shechita. A great deal of character
assassination, and
unfounded projections regarding supposed hidden agendas is what you are
doing.
Nameless slaughterers with an antisemitic agenda. And according to them,
only shechita and halal are *cruel,* in contrast to the methods they employ.
does not grow staple foods for the hungry.
And again, this is not related in any way, shape, or form to anything in
Judaism or the torah.
Then you are unworthy of inclusion in "rachamim b'nei rachamim"
(compassionate children of compassionate ancestors).
Yes, me and 95-99% of the other Jews in the world (including all the
Orthodox ones).
Jewish text and tradition provides a clear mandate to
work towards the eradication of hunger.
What Jewish texts say about our mandate to fight hunger;
http://www.mazon.org/pages/Jewish%20Sources.pdf
Courtesy of the talmid chachaim Richard Schwartz. And what a smokescreen
this is. As if *fighting hunger* obligates us to be vegetarians. A much more
efficient and immediate way to fight hunger is to spend time working in a
local soup kitchen, donate canned and packaged items to the local food
cupboard and/or send a check to any of the worthwhile charitable
organizations that provide food RIGHT NOW for people who are starving.
Giving tzedakah is a very Jewish value.
[snipped remainder for brevity]
1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
killed to meet a basic human need. For example, in an essay on
"Animals",
in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals
must
be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out
that
"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only
discouraged
in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
Yes, I agree that *hunting for sport* is not permitted in Judaism. This
is
because the meat of an animal killed by a method other than shechita
(ritual
slaughter) is not kosher. The rabbi is not delegitimizing eating
shechted
meat (if he were, he would be in a serious violation of Jewish law); he
is
only condemning hunting for sport. From a Jewish perspective, eating
meat
is perfectly legitimate and not frivolous at all. As I stated
previously,
the torah mandates the sacrifices/eating meat when the temple stands.
And
even without the temple, the Rambam and our sages mandated it in the
talmud
for the celebration of shabbos and yom tov. There is no such thing as an
Orthodox rabbi who would ever say that Jews shouldn't eat meat or are
obligated to be vegetarians. To say such a thing would be to
contradict/refute halacha and the entire torah.
See other post.
I saw all the posts. You cannot possibly post anything that will prove
vegetarianism is a *Judaic value* because it simply is not.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Patricia Heil" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering ofanimals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:06:31 AM |
|
|
cindys wrote:
I saw all the posts. You cannot possibly post anything that will prove
vegetarianism is a *Judaic value* because it simply is not.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I admit I haven't been readinall the posts. Has she pulled the
Daniel bit on you yet? the point of the Daniel issue is that the
only reason he and the other three ate vegetarian is because
they COULD NOT GET KOSHER MEAT from the king's table.
.
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|
|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:23:02 AM |
|
|
"Patricia Heil" <pjayheil@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3FB7A087.23D68EF6@erols.com...
cindys wrote:
I saw all the posts. You cannot possibly post anything that will prove
vegetarianism is a *Judaic value* because it simply is not.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
I admit I haven't been readinall the posts. Has she pulled the
Daniel bit on you yet? the point of the Daniel issue is that the
only reason he and the other three ate vegetarian is because
they COULD NOT GET KOSHER MEAT from the king's table.
-----------------
No, that's a new one on me (as a vegetarian argument, that is).
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
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| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:08:26 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:58:59 GMT "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
[ snipped ]
:>Yes, I agree that *hunting for sport* is not permitted in Judaism. This is
:>because the meat of an animal killed by a method other than shechita (ritual
:>slaughter) is not kosher.
That would not make it prohibited.
One could feed the meat to dogs, for example. Or use the hides.
The prohibition would be on wasting things.
[ snipped ]
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:24:01 AM |
|
|
"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:158frvg15evlf4h7gkhktk9set945psjsa@4ax.com...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:58:59 GMT "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com>
wrote:
[ snipped ]
:>Yes, I agree that *hunting for sport* is not permitted in Judaism. This
is
:>because the meat of an animal killed by a method other than shechita
(ritual
:>slaughter) is not kosher.
That would not make it prohibited.
One could feed the meat to dogs, for example. Or use the hides.
The prohibition would be on wasting things.
-----------
I stand corrected.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
|
|
|
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|
| User: "TonyaK911" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:41:52 AM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote, in response to my statement:
The future of Judaism and the future of our planet (the planet where
every
third person is going to sleep hungry tonight) depend on many many
things -
less of all on following vegetarian whim...
'The problem is that corporate-driven agriculture, after it "encloses"
land and evicts the farm communities from these lands, does not grow
staple foods for the hungry. Global corporations favor high-profit luxury
Well, well, well!
Now you really start talking about your true agenda.
The real target are not just a few Jews shamelessly enjoying meat - the
socialist moron wants to fight capitalism!
Good luck, buddy.
Go to Havana, tell those poor schmucks you want to spread their ever-lasting
fast to the whole planet, pearl!
ROFL!!!
TK9
.
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|
|
|
| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:06:35 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 14:41:09 -0000 "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
[ snipped ]
:>1. It is generally agreed by Jewish scholars that animals can only be
:>killed to meet a basic human need.
Source?
:> For example, in an essay on "Animals",
:>in his The Jewish Encyclopaedia of Moral and Ethical Issues, Nachum
:>Amsel, an Israeli Orthodox rabbi, states, "Man's need to use animals must
:>be a legitimate and not a frivolous one". As an example, he points out that
:>"hunting for sport is not considered legitimate, and is not only discouraged
:>in the Talmud, but is also prohibited in Jewish law."
:>http://www.ivu.org/jvs/articles.htm
Interesting and quite telling contradiction.
Perhaps you might show some sources from EDUCATED Jews?
No, of course not. There aren't any.
Hunting for sport would be prohibited as wasting things. If one used the hide
or meat it is fully permitted.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.
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|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
15 Nov 2003 09:23:13 PM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
No, you should be.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
Of course, we are not, and there is no halachic basis for it at all
(despite the fact that the author of the article desperately tries to
convince us that there this by using the usual out-of-context quotations and
twisting the words of the torah.) And to cut to the chase, Rav Kook (who is
not mentioned in this particular article, but whom vegetarians love to
quote as supposedly having said that in the days of Moshiach, we will all be
vegetarians) was, in fact, a meat-eater throughout his life.
by Richard H. Schwartz, Ph. D.
The only Jews who assert that God intended for us to be vegetarians are
those with a weak Jewish background, haven't a clue about halacha, and make
use of the torah to validate their own personal vegetarian agendas. Richard
Schwartz does not have a halachic torah background at all, only a personal
agenda. There is nothing Jewish about vegetarianism. The torah clearly
permits and encourages us to eat meat. In some cases, we are mandated to eat
meat as in the case of the korban pesach. When the temple stands, the
animal sacrifices are mitzvos. Eating the korban pesach is a mitzvah. A huge
percentage of the torah is devoted to laws regarding animal sacrifices. The
Rambam held that it was a torah obligation to eat meat for simchas yom tov.
Chazal also were quite explicit when they stated that there is no simcha
without bassar v'yayin (meat and wine). This refers to the meat of the
karbanos (sacrifices) as well as that simcha is experienced by consumption
of meat. Anyone who says that the torah encourages vegetarianism doesn't
know what he is talking about.
In promoting vegetarianism since 1977, I have been arguing that Jews
have a choice as to whether or not to be vegetarians. In support of the
view that Jews need not eat meat today is the Talmud (Pesachim 109a
states that since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews are
not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on festivals), scholarly
articles
by Rabbi Alfred Cohen and Rabbi J. David Bleich that indicate additional
sources and arguments supporting the view that Jews do not need to eat
meat in this period
There is a big difference between *not required* to eat meat and *obligated
to be vegetarians.* The reality is that there is not one Orthodox rabbi who
would ever claim that Jews are *obligated* to be vegetarians.
and the fact that several Chief Rabbis are strict
vegetarians.
Really? Like who? Not Rav Kook.
[snippage of remainder of personal agenda]
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
.
|
|
|
| User: "pearl" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:03:45 AM |
|
|
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message news:B4Ctb.72320$1N3.4669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
No, you should be.
No, you should be. You are willing to deny basic Jewish values
(see below), simply in order to satisfy your own personal desire.
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
Of course, we are not, and there is no halachic basis for it at all
(despite the fact that the author of the article desperately tries to
convince us that there this by using the usual out-of-context quotations and
twisting the words of the torah.) And to cut to the chase, Rav Kook (who is
not mentioned in this particular article, but whom vegetarians love to
quote as supposedly having said that in the days of Moshiach, we will all be
vegetarians) was, in fact, a meat-eater throughout his life.
by Richard H. Schwartz, Ph. D.
The only Jews who assert that God intended for us to be vegetarians are
those with a weak Jewish background, haven't a clue about halacha, and make
use of the torah to validate their own personal vegetarian agendas.
To remind you;
Genesais 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed;
to you it shall be for meat.
The principle of tsa'ar ba'alei chayim is enshrined in Torah and
Halacha. As the Encyclopedia Judaica states in its entry under,
"Animals: Cruelty to:
Moral and legal rules concerning the treatment of animals are
based on the principle that animals are part of God's creation
toward which man bears responsibility. Laws and other
indications in the Pentatuech and the rest of the bible make it
clear not only that cruelty to animals is forbidden but also that
compassion and mercy to them are demanded by God.'
Richard
Schwartz does not have a halachic torah background at all, only a personal
agenda.
Ipse dixit ad hominem.
There is nothing Jewish about vegetarianism. The torah clearly
permits and encourages us to eat meat. In some cases, we are mandated to eat
meat as in the case of the korban pesach. When the temple stands, the
animal sacrifices are mitzvos. Eating the korban pesach is a mitzvah. A huge
percentage of the torah is devoted to laws regarding animal sacrifices. The
Rambam held that it was a torah obligation to eat meat for simchas yom tov.
Chazal also were quite explicit when they stated that there is no simcha
without bassar v'yayin (meat and wine). This refers to the meat of the
karbanos (sacrifices) as well as that simcha is experienced by consumption
of meat. Anyone who says that the torah encourages vegetarianism doesn't
know what he is talking about.
Maybe a couple of rabbis can help you out;
'ELOHIM was, at one time, prior to the formation of Yis_ra'EL,
the MOST HIGH GOD of Canaan / Kh_na'an . The supremacy
of 'ELOHIM was cherished and maintained by the people of the
Levant and later with Abraham , the ancient "patriarch" of the
'Ivriy / Hebrews, cherished and maintained by the standard employed
within the term or embodiment surrounding the now mythical
Melchizedek , which, seemingly appearing to take on a seperate
life of its own ascending to these mythical purportions, was even
legendary in the time of Abraham.
Before Abraham's time, it was impressed upon the young from
this voice of Mal_khiy-tzehthehq , whose fleeting importance is
apparent in Genesis, in the ancient account of Torah [The account
is actually a last minute insertion into the Torah by a small but
persistent survivorship of later northern tradition 'Eloists who
survived the Assyrian crushing of the Northern Kingdom in 722
BCE], that 'ELOHIM was the GOD of blessing, and the earth a
blessing of 'ELOHIM , the TRUE GOD of all. The tithes and
offerings brought to 'EL were nothing more than thanksgiving
offerings given out of gratitude.
Still, these accounts from Torah are only faded remnants attempting
to capture the relational values established between the peoples of
Kh_na'an and 'ELOHIM . Most accounts concerning 'ELOHIM,
accounts compiled 1,000 years after, are badly distorted by Yahwistic
redaction, notably the Abraham / Isaac account of blood sacrifice
wrongly attributed to as if directed by 'ELOHIM.
'ELOHIM does not and will not accept blood sacrifice. Such
appeasement, petition, and sacrifice is blasphemy.
Far into the past, deep into antiquity, all that was ever brought
before this ancient GOD of Kh_na'an / Canaan, when agriculture
was still young, and a miracle before the people, long before blood
sacrifice began, long before the pain of seasons set in, grain and fruit
offerings were brought to this GREAT ONE in gratitude for the fruits
of the harvest and the earth, never in blood, never in the shedding
of blood to appease imagined "sins" or wrongs. That was a desert
fear, easily overcome by the truth.
'ELOHIM , in the beginning, was, to the most ancient of Canaanites,
a GOD of Thanksgiving, a GOD to WHOM gratitude was given in
celebration of LIFE as a sacred and wonderful gift. Pesach, the
original spring festival was given in honor of the fruitfulness and
rebirth of the earth, its fertility and promise. ..
Only later did that change when a fusion with his "sons" or "children" began.
Despite the tendency of three thousand years to believe otherwise,
YHWH and 'ELOHIM are not and were not the same.
'ELOHIM was and continues to be the supreme MOST HIGH GOD
of Yis_ra'EL and Canaan / Kh_na'an , and of humankind.
YHWH is nothing more than an inferior or lesser ba'al of the southern
Kenite-Midianite Shahssu_YHWH bedhouins of the 'Ariv / Arabia:
YHW , 'ahiyi_hwah, very distinct from the region and thinking of the
people residing in Kh_na'an / Canaan.
Here, too, know the distinction between Kenite / Cain and
Kh_na'an / Canaan. Cain, not the agriculturalist the Genesis account
depicts him as, carries the blood mark of YHWH , and is of the tribal
alignment and grouping of the bedhouins of southern Arabia and Moab.
Canaan is the guardian of integrity, and the keeper of the gate of
'ELOHIM, 'AHLEHP , the archetypal civilized, living in cities.
Biblical redaction and tampering have twisted, mixed up, and confused
the actual representations in the early accounts of Genesis. '
http://www.messiah.org/elohim.htm
In promoting vegetarianism since 1977, I have been arguing that Jews
have a choice as to whether or not to be vegetarians. In support of the
view that Jews need not eat meat today is the Talmud (Pesachim 109a
states that since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews are
not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on festivals), scholarly articles
by Rabbi Alfred Cohen and Rabbi J. David Bleich that indicate additional
sources and arguments supporting the view that Jews do not need to eat
meat in this period
There is a big difference between *not required* to eat meat and *obligated
to be vegetarians.* The reality is that there is not one Orthodox rabbi who
would ever claim that Jews are *obligated* to be vegetarians.
It is your choice whether you adhere to basic Jewish values or not.
and the fact that several Chief Rabbis are strict
vegetarians.
Really? Like who? Not Rav Kook.
'several Chief Rabbis of Israel, including Shear Yashuv Cohen,
present Chief Rabbi of Haifa and the late Shlomo Goren, former
Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Israel, are or have been strict vegetarians.'
http://www.europeanvegetarian.org/evu/english/news/news991/jewish.html.
.
|
|
|
| User: "cindys" |
|
| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:26:43 AM |
|
|
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp83bp$761$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:B4Ctb.72320$1N3.4669@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:bp6kkm$hu7$1@kermit.esat.net...
"cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yyztb.72301$1N3.7057@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
"Dude Blion" <wierdloc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ab4ae.0311121557.64bd9ee3@posting.google.com...
<..>
http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/ritual_slaughter/Goingforthekill.htm
Viva! Report on Religious Slaughter
by Juliet Gellatley BSc (Zoology),
Director of Viva!
Introduction
----------------
{Snip crap}
Yes, we had an interesting thread about this biased, antisemitic
propaganda
machine (Viva) on the moderated Jewish newsgroup.
You should be ashamed.
No, you should be.
No, you should be. You are willing to deny basic Jewish values
(see below), simply in order to satisfy your own personal desire.
Vegetarianism is NOT a Jewish value (except in the minds of those with a
personal agenda who don't know the first thing about Judaism).
Forward;
ARE JEWS OBLIGATED TO BE VEGETARIANS?
Of course, we are not, and there is no halachic basis for it at all
(despite the fact that the author of the article desperately tries to
convince us that there this by using the usual out-of-context quotations
and
twisting the words of the torah.) And to cut to the chase, Rav Kook (who
is
not mentioned in this particular article, but whom vegetarians love to
quote as supposedly having said that in the days of Moshiach, we will
all be
vegetarians) was, in fact, a meat-eater throughout his life.
by Richard H. Schwartz, Ph. D.
The only Jews who assert that God intended for us to be vegetarians are
those with a weak Jewish background, haven't a clue about halacha, and
make
use of the torah to validate their own personal vegetarian agendas.
To remind you;
Genesais 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed;
to you it shall be for meat.
How did you ever come up with such a unique translation of the word
"l'achla?" It means "food" not "meat." At any rate, the entire book of
Vayikra is all about animal sacrifices and eating meat.
The principle of tsa'ar ba'alei chayim is enshrined in Torah and
Halacha. As the Encyclopedia Judaica states in its entry under,
"Animals: Cruelty to:
Moral and legal rules concerning the treatment of animals are
based on the principle that animals are part of God's creation
toward which man bears responsibility. Laws and other
indications in the Pentatuech and the rest of the bible make it
clear not only that cruelty to animals is forbidden but also that
compassion and mercy to them are demanded by God.'
Of course. This is why we have shechita (ritual slaughter) as opposed to
conking the animals over the head.
Richard
Schwartz does not have a halachic torah background at all, only a
personal
agenda.
Ipse dixit ad hominem.
It's a statement of fact. He does not have a torah background. He is not an
halachic authority.
There is nothing Jewish about vegetarianism. The torah clearly
permits and encourages us to eat meat. In some cases, we are mandated to
eat
meat as in the case of the korban pesach. When the temple stands, the
animal sacrifices are mitzvos. Eating the korban pesach is a mitzvah. A
huge
percentage of the torah is devoted to laws regarding animal sacrifices.
The
Rambam held that it was a torah obligation to eat meat for simchas yom
tov.
Chazal also were quite explicit when they stated that there is no simcha
without bassar v'yayin (meat and wine). This refers to the meat of the
karbanos (sacrifices) as well as that simcha is experienced by
consumption
of meat. Anyone who says that the torah encourages vegetarianism doesn't
know what he is talking about.
Maybe a couple of rabbis can help you out;
'ELOHIM was, at one time, prior to the formation of Yis_ra'EL,
the MOST HIGH GOD of Canaan / Kh_na'an . The supremacy
of 'ELOHIM was cherished and maintained by the people of the
Levant and later with Abraham , the ancient "patriarch" of the
'Ivriy / Hebrews,
[snip crap unrelated to topic]
In promoting vegetarianism since 1977, I have been arguing that Jews
have a choice as to whether or not to be vegetarians. In support of
the
view that Jews need not eat meat today is the Talmud (Pesachim 109a
states that since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jews are
not required to eat meat in order to rejoice on festivals), scholarly
articles
by Rabbi Alfred Cohen and Rabbi J. David Bleich that indicate
additional
sources and arguments supporting the view that Jews do not need to eat
meat in this period
There is a big difference between *not required* to eat meat and
*obligated
to be vegetarians.* The reality is that there is not one Orthodox rabbi
who
would ever claim that Jews are *obligated* to be vegetarians.
It is your choice whether you adhere to basic Jewish values or not.
I noticed that you couldn't refute my statement. So, I guess you think you
know more about Jewish *values* than all the Orthodox rabbis, too, including
the Rambam and the sages of the talmud, all of whom permit and encourage the
consumption of meat.
and the fact that several Chief Rabbis are strict
vegetarians.
Really? Like who? Not Rav Kook.
'several Chief Rabbis of Israel, including Shear Yashuv Cohen,
present Chief Rabbi of Haifa and the late Shlomo Goren, former
Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of Israel, are or have been strict vegetarians.'
http://www.europeanvegetarian.org/evu/english/news/news991/jewish.html.
And now show me where they stated that they are or *were* (What happened?
;-) vegetarians because it is a *Judaic obligation.* And if vegetarianism
is a "Jewish value" why do the other 99% of the Orthodox rabbis in the world
all eat meat?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
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| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
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| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of suffering of animals. |
16 Nov 2003 10:12:47 AM |
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On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:26:43 GMT "cindys" <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
:>"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
:>news:bp83bp$761$1@kermit.esat.net...
[ snipped ]
:>> The principle of tsa'ar ba'alei chayim is enshrined in Torah and
:>> Halacha. As the Encyclopedia Judaica states in its entry under,
:>> "Animals: Cruelty to:
:>> Moral and legal rules concerning the treatment of animals are
:>> based on the principle that animals are part of God's creation
:>> toward which man bears responsibility. Laws and other
:>> indications in the Pentatuech and the rest of the bible make it
:>> clear not only that cruelty to animals is forbidden but also that
:>> compassion and mercy to them are demanded by God.'
:>Of course. This is why we have shechita (ritual slaughter) as opposed to
:>conking the animals over the head.
Actually, that is not necessarily true. The are other ways of killing animals
that would be of less pain.
The prohibition is against UNNECESSARY pain. One can cause pain to animals for
many reasons, including looking for a medical cure or to eat them.
[ snipped ]
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
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| User: "usual suspect" |
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| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of sufferingof animals. |
16 Nov 2003 09:48:36 AM |
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cindys wrote:
<snip>
Vegetarianism is NOT a Jewish value (except in the minds of those with a
personal agenda who don't know the first thing about Judaism).
That would be pearl, alright.
<snip>
To remind you;
Genesais 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every
herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed;
to you it shall be for meat.
How did you ever come up with such a unique translation of the word
"l'achla?" It means "food" not "meat." At any rate, the entire book of
Vayikra is all about animal sacrifices and eating meat.
Lesley, aka pearl, Lotus, and lilweed, has some very strange
translations and beliefs. I apologize in advance to the different groups
for this lengthy list, but it's only fair for you to know what you're up
against.
The following list is annotated to show certain peculiar beliefs she has
promoted on aaev and tpa (among other groups). Note that she has stated
today that she's Jewish. This is interesting considering the points
related to her skinhead lifestyle.
------------------
(1) "veganism"
KDB -- That's actually far enough. That one stupid belief is all anyone
needs to know. I doubt you're disputing her belief in this one.
JB*
------------------
(2) "inner earth beings"
(3) "hollow earth"
KDB -- I'm one of many people who have argued against her insane belief
in these two fantasies. Why would you defend someone who is so clearly
not in command of all her mental faculties?
JB*
-------------------
(4) that goofy patent for a MANUFACTURED globe
KDB -- The stupid ***** thought you could receive a patent for a
geographical discovery. My wife pointed out exactly what the patent
category numbers meant, and "pearl' (or whatever silly name she was
using at the time) continued to argue against all reason. I think this
was about the time that other ignorant halfwit, Dreck, began to realize
his sweetheart just ain't playing with a full deck.
JB*
-------------------
(5) your helium-inflated number(s) for feed:beef
KDB -- She and Dreck post that one often. In the last discussion I had
on the issue, the numbers started out ridiculously high, and since
neither of them is intelligent enough to know what they are doing, they
kept adding to the numbers until they reached stratospheric proportions.
At the exponential rate their "ratio" kept increasing, had they
continued for a few more days, they'd have "shown" there's not enough
vegetation on the planet to feed one friggin' cow!
JB*
-------------------
(6) rain forest destruction
(7) Brazil's exports (based on *Argentina's* trade)
KDB -- Jonathan has discussed these two at length.
JB*
--------------------
(8) Stolen French flying saucer
KDB -- That's a new one to me, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the
ignorant ***** believes in all sorts of things of this nature. Damn Bob,
she believes the FUCKING EARTH is HOLLOW with an "inner sun" and is
inhabited by a SUPERHUMAN RACE! *****, what would someone that mentally
unstable NOT be likely to believe in?
US -- From her site: http://www.iol.ie/~creature/disc.html
She mentioned it on two threads.
first thread:
http://tinyurl.com/h0br
second thread:
http://tinyurl.com/h0bl
----------------------
(9) Zapper
KDB -- Are you disputing this one?
JB*
US -- http://tinyurl.com/v5p8
[She readily defends the quack Hulda Clark.]
------------------------
(10) Foot massage (as cure-all)
KDB -- Ask Dreck.
JB*
US -- http://tinyurl.com/v5pf
------------------------
(11) Astrology
(12) Numerology
(13) Alien abduction
KDB -- I don't recall seeing these actually mentioned, but the other
stuff she believes practically requires that she also subscribes to
these three. Hell, she probably thinks she is an alien abductee.
US -- Per (11) http://tinyurl.com/v5jj
Per (12), I found this little exchange between Lotus and Jon Ball:
Jon:
She NEEDS to believe in magic, crystals,
amazing but bogus medical instruments, astrology,
numerology - anything at all that modern science says
is *****.
Loony Lesley:
There's a good little conspiracy lap-dog, boil.
'modern science' your new god, boil?
All the things you mention have been around for
aeons, but 'modern science' is terminal.
http://tinyurl.com/v5kd
She certainly didn't deny it.
Per (13) http://tinyurl.com/v5l6
-------------------------
(14) Holocaust denial
KDB -- I don't know about this one.
US -- Neither do I, but fwiw a search through her pseudonyms reveals
that she likens farming to the Holocaust. See end note.
--------------------------
(15) Leprechauns
KDB -- Hehe.
US -- When asked if she believes in them, she doesn't say no. Instead
she quotes Skakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and Earth,
Horatio, than are dreamt in your philosophy."
see: http://tinyurl.com/v5ft
--------------------------
(16) Channeling
(17) Polar fountains
(18) Sun gazing
(19) Chemtrails
(20) AIDS and ebola conspiracy theory
(21) Crop circles
KDB -- Every single one of those is a natural belief for the way her
mind works and she has alluded to everyone of them in the past, and has
probably defended them outright. The "hollow earth" nonsense involved
both channeling and polar fountains. Tell me which ones you don't
believe and I'll see what i can find.
JB* for 17, 19, and 21
US --
Per (16): This reference goes hand-in-hand with her beliefs in the
hollow earth. Adama of Telos, the priestess from the netherworld or
underground or whatever, was channeled by one Aurelia Louise Jones.
http://www.mslpublishing.com/heart-heart.html
Per (17): http://tinyurl.com/v5fj
Per (18): http://tinyurl.com/v5fp
When it was shown to be a hoax, she kind of backed off it. Still, she
posted it without any verification or hesitation.
Per (19): http://tinyurl.com/v5ft
Per (20): http://tinyurl.com/v5ga
Per (21): http://tinyurl.com/v5gc
(There are more threads with crop circle info, should anyone want to
review each individual thread and/or post.)
-------------------------
(22) sexually aroused by violent ex-convicts
(23) participation in skinhead subculture
JB*
US -- Conjecture based upon her marriage to a skinhead and his calling
her a Chelsea (and even saying that she shaved). In his own words:
What's wrong, mate? Can't be worse than your wife turnin into a
fuckin love everyone and the animals hippy.
That's why I'm gettin a divorce.Beware of the Chelsea that
shaves only to lure a skinhead into her llair. Then she shows
her true colours. It's a rainbow with cute little furry
creatures you want to take a bat to.
See: http://tinyurl.com/v5i2
--------------------------
(24) the validity of online IQ tests
JB*
US -- http://tinyurl.com/v5gk
---------------------------
(25) crackpot 9-11 conspiracy theories
US -- She wrote:
Where have you been, much more to the point.
And pasted the following flawed article about WTC:
Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC
By Jerry Russell, Ph.D.
see: http://tinyurl.com/v5h1
----------------------------
(26) Jeff Rense for "news"
KDB (per last entries) -- Those are all quite recent, I've read the posts.
JB*
US -- http://tinyurl.com/v5h9
-----------------------------
I'm considering removing the one about Holocaust denial, but it'll be
replaced with one of her other zany thoughts (no shortage there!). Other
items which lack links can be found in Google's archives of aaev/tpa etc.
<snip>
And now show me where they stated that they are or *were* (What happened?
;-) vegetarians because it is a *Judaic obligation.* And if vegetarianism
is a "Jewish value" why do the other 99% of the Orthodox rabbis in the world
all eat meat?
I suspect you won't get a clear answer -- her M.O. is to simply
overburden people with cuts-and-pastes from various activist sites. At
least she hasn't offended your sensibilities with the crap she lifts
from a VEGAN MOTORCYCLIST site yet. Hehe.
.
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| User: "pearl" |
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| Title: Re: Kosher and tsa'ar ba'alei hayim , the prevention of sufferingof animals. |
17 Nov 2003 06:20:41 AM |
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"usual suspect" <support@our.troops> wrote in message news:o%Mtb.94480$KY1.15760@twister.austin.rr.com...
cindys wrote:
<snip>
Vegetarianism is NOT a Jewish value (except in the minds of those with a
personal agenda who don't know the first thing about Judaism).
That would be pearl, alright.
<..>
The following list is annotated to show certain peculiar beliefs she has
promoted on aaev and tpa (among other groups).
'usual suspect is distorting, or lying about my beliefs, etc.
He's also a hypocrite of the highest (or is that 'lowest') order;
First on his list of infantile ridicule;
(1) "veganism"
KDB -- That's actually far enough. That one stupid belief is all anyone
needs to know. I doubt you're disputing her belief in this one.
usual suspect Date: 2002-09-09;
"I dislike flesh, though my reasons for being vegan
are overwhelmingly health-oriented: I want to live
a long, healthy life, and I think the consumption of
meat, dairy, and eggs is bad for me, animals, my
environment, and the whole world. Is that first part
selfish? Perhaps to some people. Do the other,
more selfless consequences of my diet (no animal
must die for my nourishment or enjoyment, less
pollution and less harm to the environment, etc.)
mitigate the selfish notion of wanting to live long and
without serious health problems associated with an
animal-based diet?"
Hell knows what tipped him onto the trash-heap since.
I'll put the record straight regarding the rest, when
I have the time later on, and address all your replies.
:)
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