Memorial wall for abortion victims

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Auric Hellman"
Date:	25 Jan 2005 12:05:30 AM
Object:	Memorial wall for abortion victims

100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 22, 2005
BOULDER - The stars twinkled in a velvet black sky Friday as Diane
Sillstrop carried a candle for the twins she aborted in 1976 when she
was 21.
About 100 abortion foes joined Sillstrop to grieve at a Memorial Wall
for the Unborn in a graveyard at the Sacred Heart of Mary Church. They
carried candles and brought flowers for an estimated 5,000 fetuses who
have been buried at the church since 1996.
Catholic Church officials and volunteers plan to bury the remains from
another 1,000 fetuses Sunday. The burial coincides with the 32nd
anniversary today of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision that
legalized abortion.
The fetal remains came from the Boulder Abortion Clinic. Unbeknownst to
Dr. Warren Hern, director of the clinic, the Crist Mortuary of Boulder
had been picking up fetal remains and delivering them to the church.
Disturbed by the remains, church officials and abortion foes decided to
build the memorial wall, which they dedicated in 2000.
Hern blasted the Catholic Church for what he said was exploitation of
his patients' pain.
"I am appalled that the Catholic Church again has shown its willingness
to exploit the private grief and pain of women seeking legal abortions
in order to advance its political goals," Hern said in a written
statement. "I am also appalled that the officers of Crist Mortuary,
which performs important work requiring public trust . . . have
publicly admitted that they have collaborated with this cynical
exploitation of private grief for political purposes."
Advocates for abortion rights said that many women who received
abortions at Hern's clinic had babies with fatal abnormalities. Hern
said abortion foes would stop "at nothing to inflict guilt and to
compound the grief, sadness and sense of loss that these women
experience. These fanatics simply cannot leave other people alone with
their most intimate sorrow."
Sillstrop and other abortion foes said they understand why public
revelations about the burials have been so explosive, especially for
women whose fetuses may be buried at the church.
"I know this isn't easy," Sillstrop said. "I hope and pray that they
can find what I have found here - healing."
Any woman who has had an abortion can request an acknowledgment of her
fetus at the Memorial Wall. Church officials estimate there are between
100 and 200 such plaques.
Now 49, Sillstrop wishes she had kept her twins. A plaque in their
memory sits on the wall. It notes the day Sillstrop had her abortion,
Aug. 11, 1976, and says, "Your lives have touched many."
Sillstrop, who has had three other children and who has become a
counselor to girls considering abortion, thinks the wall is vital for
women dealing with the pain of a poor decision. "Abortion gnaws at the
soul," she said.
Susan LaVelle has been helping with the burials for years and has
counseled expectant mothers at the Real Choices Pregnancy Center in
Boulder.
She and Father Dorino DeLazzer of the Sacred Heart of Mary parish
decided last spring that they should tell the public about the fetal
remains.
LaVelle said she knows that the Boulder Abortion Clinic will
undoubtedly find a different way now to dispose of the remains. Even
so, she said it was vital to let people know how significant the wall
is.
"It gives everyone, whether they've had an abortion or not, a place to
grieve the loss of so many babies over the last 32 years," she said.
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 09:32:22 AM

"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> wrote in message
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<...>

In essence Susan, you have a good point, the only thing is that you
have confused religion and morality... This is NOT to be taken in a
deraogatory manner, or as flamebait BTW.

But religion is not church -- *any* belief without data can be considered
religious to some degree, and that certainly includes moral beliefs (which
is not to say that morality necessarily derives from religion).

Yes, in the context of this conversation.
I haven't confused anything.

I myself would slant towards to life side of the debate simply due to
the potential that a fetus represents. Potential is, after all, what
humans are all about. I would also consider myself pretty
anti-religion.*

I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights, and
lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at
least) the beginning of the third trimester.

Which is where most people - if they *think* about it, are.
That's when the baby can usually live on it's own.
And, as an aside, any idiot who wants to claim "5 weeks" is the limit is
fooling only himself. There are plenty of women, if not most of us, who
don't even know they are pregnant until 3 weeks after this.
Susan

Jim

User: "Bob"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 11:07:54 AM

"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> wrote in message
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<...>

In essence Susan, you have a good point, the only thing is that you
have confused religion and morality... This is NOT to be taken in a
deraogatory manner, or as flamebait BTW.

But religion is not church -- *any* belief without data can be considered
religious to some degree, and that certainly includes moral beliefs (which is
not to say that morality necessarily derives from religion).

Yes, in the context of this conversation.
I haven't confused anything.

I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights, and
lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at least)
the beginning of the third trimester.

Which is where most people - if they *think* about it, are.

Is that where you are?
.

User: "Nichevo"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 05:08:55 PM

I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights,

and

lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at

least)

the beginning of the third trimester.

I am just going to throw some idea's out, just for feedback mainly.
A pro-choice advocate argument used is that a woman should have control
over her own body(her own DNA), yet the fetus' DNA is fully human and
not identical, would that make the fetus legally a different person? It
seems to be established in law that the use of DNA to identify
individuals is fairly set in stone.
In the age of DNA copyrights etc. we have more dilemma's to explore.
When a man and a woman combine genetic material to cause conception
what legal right should the male hold over his contribution. To make it
a bit clearer: It seems analogous to two authors writing a book, what
rights do each parties hold as to the fate of the book? I would almost
expect that it could be considered a legal loss to one party in the
case of abortion. OTOH is also binds the male party to ensure adequate
conditions for fruitation etc. This will become clearer as the laws
mature(monsanto has already made headway in the field of genetic
copyright here in Canada).
Anyways, something to chew on.
.

User: "Clave"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 05:18:20 PM

"Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106867335.911956.240630@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights,

and

lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at

least)

the beginning of the third trimester.

A different entity certainly, but you can't get around the putative "personhood"
problem.
Jim

It
seems to be established in law that the use of DNA to identify
individuals is fairly set in stone.
In the age of DNA copyrights etc. we have more dilemma's to explore.
When a man and a woman combine genetic material to cause conception
what legal right should the male hold over his contribution. To make it
a bit clearer: It seems analogous to two authors writing a book, what
rights do each parties hold as to the fate of the book? I would almost
expect that it could be considered a legal loss to one party in the
case of abortion. OTOH is also binds the male party to ensure adequate
conditions for fruitation etc. This will become clearer as the laws
mature(monsanto has already made headway in the field of genetic
copyright here in Canada).
Anyways, something to chew on.

User: "Democrats - pencilnecked freaks"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 05:34:13 PM

"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106867335.911956.240630@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights,

and

lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at

least)

the beginning of the third trimester.

A different entity certainly, but you can't get around the putative
"personhood" problem.

Which is what makes it the *intentional* slaughter of a live human being,
Jim.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 10:03:52 PM

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:34:13 GMT, "Democrats - pencilnecked freaks"
<Losers@Losers.net> said in alt.atheism:

Which is what makes it the *intentional* slaughter of a live human being,

But not the killing of a person, which is the only thing that the law
concerns itself with.
--
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 10:03:11 PM

On 27 Jan 2005 15:08:55 -0800, "Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> said in
alt.atheism:

A pro-choice advocate argument used is that a woman should have control
over her own body(her own DNA)

No, the argument is "over her own body", not "over her own DNA".

yet the fetus' DNA is fully human and
not identical, would that make the fetus legally a different person?

No, the fetus isn't a person - of any sort.
--
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 10:01:08 PM

On 26 Jan 2005 20:46:34 -0800, "Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I myself would slant towards to life side of the debate simply due to
the potential that a fetus represents.

Actuality always trumps potential, and the woman is an ACTUAL person.
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 09:48:25 PM

"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.

What pure *****.

Well, that's another way of rephrasing your previous post, yes.
Susan

User: "Bob"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 09:54:59 PM

"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.

What pure *****.

Well, that's another way of rephrasing your previous post, yes.

Do you believe in abortion on demand?
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 10:34:45 PM

"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.

What pure *****.

Well, that's another way of rephrasing your previous post, yes.

Do you believe in abortion on demand?

Do you think trying to change the discussion is going to make anyone not
notice that we were right? You are basing your opinion on what YOU BELIEVE,
just like we said.
Susan
.

User: "Bob"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 07:47:18 AM

"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.

What pure *****.

Well, that's another way of rephrasing your previous post, yes.

Do you believe in abortion on demand?

Do you think trying to change the discussion is going to make anyone not
notice that we were right? You are basing your opinion on what YOU BELIEVE,
just like we said.

Of course I am ... as is everyone on this topic. I
do not have a "religious axe to grind" ... which is
where this started until YOU moved it.
At what point do you believe human life deserves
protection in law?
.

User: "Jos Flachs"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	27 Jan 2005 06:45:01 PM

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:54:59 -0600, "Bob" <no@email.address> wrote:

Well, that's another way of rephrasing your previous post, yes.

Do you believe in abortion on demand?

I don't believe at all. Unless, that is, in a a cup of coffee. I'll
believe I'll have one, thanks.
.

User: "Clave"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 03:49:50 PM

"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.

What pure *****.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I notice you didn't answer the question.
Jim
.

User: "Bob"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 04:57:29 PM

"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.

What pure *****.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I notice you didn't answer the question.

I personally consider it wrong to terminate
the life of an innocent human being. Since
brain activity begins at approximately 6 weeks,
I use 5 weeks as my line of demarcation when
a human life is worthy of protection in law.
At what point do you believe human life
deserves protection in law?
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 09:50:20 PM

"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.

What pure *****.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I notice you didn't answer the question.

IOW, Bob is going to set himself above medical experts due to HIS OWN
PERSONAL OPINION.
IOW, it's a belief.
Susan
.

User: "Bob"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 09:57:28 PM

"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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<...>

I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.

Why?

If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.

What pure *****.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I notice you didn't answer the question.

IOW, Bob is going to set himself above medical experts due to HIS OWN PERSONAL
OPINION.

Are you on drugs, or just stupid?

IOW, it's a belief.

If course it's a belief. But it has nothing
to do with religion.
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims	26 Jan 2005 10:32:11 PM

"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
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