| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Auric Hellman" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2005 12:05:30 AM |
| Object: |
Memorial wall for abortion victims |
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 22, 2005
BOULDER - The stars twinkled in a velvet black sky Friday as Diane
Sillstrop carried a candle for the twins she aborted in 1976 when she
was 21.
About 100 abortion foes joined Sillstrop to grieve at a Memorial Wall
for the Unborn in a graveyard at the Sacred Heart of Mary Church. They
carried candles and brought flowers for an estimated 5,000 fetuses who
have been buried at the church since 1996.
Catholic Church officials and volunteers plan to bury the remains from
another 1,000 fetuses Sunday. The burial coincides with the 32nd
anniversary today of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision that
legalized abortion.
The fetal remains came from the Boulder Abortion Clinic. Unbeknownst to
Dr. Warren Hern, director of the clinic, the Crist Mortuary of Boulder
had been picking up fetal remains and delivering them to the church.
Disturbed by the remains, church officials and abortion foes decided to
build the memorial wall, which they dedicated in 2000.
Hern blasted the Catholic Church for what he said was exploitation of
his patients' pain.
"I am appalled that the Catholic Church again has shown its willingness
to exploit the private grief and pain of women seeking legal abortions
in order to advance its political goals," Hern said in a written
statement. "I am also appalled that the officers of Crist Mortuary,
which performs important work requiring public trust . . . have
publicly admitted that they have collaborated with this cynical
exploitation of private grief for political purposes."
Advocates for abortion rights said that many women who received
abortions at Hern's clinic had babies with fatal abnormalities. Hern
said abortion foes would stop "at nothing to inflict guilt and to
compound the grief, sadness and sense of loss that these women
experience. These fanatics simply cannot leave other people alone with
their most intimate sorrow."
Sillstrop and other abortion foes said they understand why public
revelations about the burials have been so explosive, especially for
women whose fetuses may be buried at the church.
"I know this isn't easy," Sillstrop said. "I hope and pray that they
can find what I have found here - healing."
Any woman who has had an abortion can request an acknowledgment of her
fetus at the Memorial Wall. Church officials estimate there are between
100 and 200 such plaques.
Now 49, Sillstrop wishes she had kept her twins. A plaque in their
memory sits on the wall. It notes the day Sillstrop had her abortion,
Aug. 11, 1976, and says, "Your lives have touched many."
Sillstrop, who has had three other children and who has become a
counselor to girls considering abortion, thinks the wall is vital for
women dealing with the pain of a poor decision. "Abortion gnaws at the
soul," she said.
Susan LaVelle has been helping with the burials for years and has
counseled expectant mothers at the Real Choices Pregnancy Center in
Boulder.
She and Father Dorino DeLazzer of the Sacred Heart of Mary parish
decided last spring that they should tell the public about the fetal
remains.
LaVelle said she knows that the Boulder Abortion Clinic will
undoubtedly find a different way now to dispose of the remains. Even
so, she said it was vital to let people know how significant the wall
is.
"It gives everyone, whether they've had an abortion or not, a place to
grieve the loss of so many babies over the last 32 years," she said.
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 02:52:34 PM |
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Loose Cannon wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f68ef8$0$26031$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Loose Cannon wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f684b9$0$26021$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Auric Hellman wrote:
The issue of abortion is one I generally do not discuss. The issue I
am addressing is how a single Catholic Church deals with the issue and
the great lengths the so-called "pro-choice" lobby will go to protest
how the church chooses to deal with this matter. Pro-lifers and the RC
church have every right to express their views and petition lawmakers
to enforce their views upon society just as the pro-choice have done.
If the church wishes to erect and pay homage at a memorial wall, they
should feel free to express that without fear of harrassment from those
who oppose them.
Oh I agree.
Of course, at the moment the RCC seems to have other calls on their
assets.
Seems that a little dirt has found it's way out from under the rug.
That said, spending limited assets building some self-aggrandizing
"memorial" doesn't seem to actually help anyone. But hey, it's their
money,
and it's the statement that matters, right? ;-)
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
So, rather than actually help *children* or pregnant women, they're blowing
their wad on a silly "memorial"?
That's a silly thing to say. it's only a wall, and it only represents a
tiny fraction of the children lost to abortion. You may as well say that
we shouldn't erect tombstones to the dead and instead put the money into
medical research.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 04:16:53 PM |
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"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f6b508$0$26028$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Loose Cannon wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f68ef8$0$26031$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Loose Cannon wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f684b9$0$26021$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Auric Hellman wrote:
The issue of abortion is one I generally do not discuss. The issue I
am addressing is how a single Catholic Church deals with the issue and
the great lengths the so-called "pro-choice" lobby will go to protest
how the church chooses to deal with this matter. Pro-lifers and the RC
church have every right to express their views and petition lawmakers
to enforce their views upon society just as the pro-choice have done.
If the church wishes to erect and pay homage at a memorial wall, they
should feel free to express that without fear of harrassment from
those who oppose them.
Oh I agree.
Of course, at the moment the RCC seems to have other calls on their
assets. Seems that a little dirt has found it's way out from under the
rug.
That said, spending limited assets building some self-aggrandizing
"memorial" doesn't seem to actually help anyone. But hey, it's their
money, and it's the statement that matters, right? ;-)
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
So, rather than actually help *children* or pregnant women, they're
blowing their wad on a silly "memorial"?
That's a silly thing to say. it's only a wall, and it only represents a
tiny fraction of the children lost to abortion.
Hey, for only .48 per day, you can support a third world child, or so the
CCF tells us. Instead, these "pro-lifers" are building a monument. To
themselves, truth be told.
Underwhelming commitment.
You may as well say that we shouldn't erect tombstones to the dead and
instead put the money into medical research.
Works for me. My will dictates cremation.
LC~ Seems Michael doesn't know what he wants.
"What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything?"~ Vincent Van
Gogh
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 04:15:00 PM |
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Loose Cannon wrote:
So, rather than actually help *children* or pregnant women, they're
blowing their wad on a silly "memorial"?
That's a silly thing to say. it's only a wall, and it only represents a
tiny fraction of the children lost to abortion.
Hey, for only .48 per day, you can support a third world child, or so the
CCF tells us. Instead, these "pro-lifers" are building a monument. To
themselves, truth be told.
Underwhelming commitment.
I thought you were "pro-choice". And yet when women club together to
commemorate their dead, you sneer at their choices. Like all
pro-abortionists, your sociopathy extends to just about every member of
the human race.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 05:12:18 PM |
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"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f6c856$0$7777$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
Loose Cannon wrote:
So, rather than actually help *children* or pregnant women, they're
blowing their wad on a silly "memorial"?
That's a silly thing to say. it's only a wall, and it only represents a
tiny fraction of the children lost to abortion.
Hey, for only .48 per day, you can support a third world child, or so the
CCF tells us. Instead, these "pro-lifers" are building a monument. To
themselves, truth be told.
Underwhelming commitment.
I thought you were "pro-choice". And yet when women club together to
commemorate their dead, you sneer at their choices.
I'm "sneering" at the phony commitment of these so called "pro-lifers".
As usual, it's all about the show.
Like all pro-abortionists, your sociopathy extends to just about every
member of the human race.
LOL! Aren't you the author of this gem?:
"OK then like what I said in my other email gays are six times more
likely to be child abussers than normal people. So what if I had a gay
and then I found out he was abussing kiddies and I coulsd have stopped
it by having an abortion?????
Alright also then what about aids. Fagots spread aids like rats spread
the plage, so what if he had sex with a inocent girl and made her have
aids like lots of gays do.
Also then gays are more likely to get depresed than everybody and kill
themselves about 3 times more likely than normal people. So its not
fair bringing a gay into the world. Also there more likely to be drug
users!
So theres loads of good reasons for abortions of gays."
Message-ID: <bd24af8e.0411130550.7cbadea9@posting.google.com>
Now, you were saying something about "sociopaths"?
Try not to be such a moron, Mike. It's very unbecoming.
LC~ Like that's gonna happen.
"The smaller the mind the greater the conceit."~Aesop
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| User: "nycgirl" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
30 Jan 2005 06:14:12 PM |
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No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
31 Jan 2005 04:20:39 AM |
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nycgirl wrote:
No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
Millions upon millions have been, so it was pertinent.
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| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
31 Jan 2005 10:48:42 AM |
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Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> writes:
nycgirl wrote:
No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
Millions upon millions have been, so it was pertinent.
So, where are their names/DOBs/SSNs/other pertinent data?
Come back when you've made all _that_ up.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Houston 3, Chicago 2 (January 29)
NEXT GAME: Wednesday, February 2 at Chicago, 7:05
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
31 Jan 2005 10:42:25 AM |
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Patrick Lee Humphrey wrote:
Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> writes:
nycgirl wrote:
No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
Millions upon millions have been, so it was pertinent.
So, where are their names/DOBs/SSNs/other pertinent data?
Come back when you've made all _that_ up.
So, where are their names/SSNs/other pertinent data of the blacks
lynched in the 18th & 19th C Paddy? Or the charred skeletons at Auschwitz?
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
31 Jan 2005 09:08:22 PM |
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Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote:
Patrick Lee Humphrey wrote:
Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> writes:
nycgirl wrote:
No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
Millions upon millions have been, so it was pertinent.
So, where are their names/DOBs/SSNs/other pertinent data?
Come back when you've made all _that_ up.
So, where are their names/SSNs/other pertinent data of the blacks
lynched in the 18th & 19th C Paddy?
SS numbers didn't exist in the 19th century. They do now.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
31 Jan 2005 10:33:22 PM |
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Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> writes:
Patrick Lee Humphrey wrote:
Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> writes:
nycgirl wrote:
No child was lost to abortion, so this is a foolish post.
Millions upon millions have been, so it was pertinent.
So, where are their names/DOBs/SSNs/other pertinent data? Come back when
you've made all _that_ up.
So, where are their names/SSNs/other pertinent data of the blacks lynched in
the 18th & 19th C Paddy? Or the charred skeletons at Auschwitz?
There's one thing you're overlooking, little git -- the lynchings and
Holocaust were done to people who'd already been bornm for starters. (SSNs in
the 19th Century? You're obviously proud of your stupidity.)
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Houston 3, Chicago 2 (January 29)
NEXT GAME: Wednesday, February 2 at Chicago, 7:05
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 05:28:58 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> let us all know that:
Loose Cannon wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f684b9$0$26021$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Auric Hellman wrote:
The issue of abortion is one I generally do not discuss. The issue I
am addressing is how a single Catholic Church deals with the issue and
the great lengths the so-called "pro-choice" lobby will go to protest
how the church chooses to deal with this matter. Pro-lifers and the RC
church have every right to express their views and petition lawmakers
to enforce their views upon society just as the pro-choice have done.
If the church wishes to erect and pay homage at a memorial wall, they
should feel free to express that without fear of harrassment from those
who oppose them.
Oh I agree.
Of course, at the moment the RCC seems to have other calls on their assets.
Seems that a little dirt has found it's way out from under the rug.
That said, spending limited assets building some self-aggrandizing
"memorial" doesn't seem to actually help anyone. But hey, it's their money,
and it's the statement that matters, right? ;-)
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
"Victims of abortion"
That assumes there is such a thing.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 09:11:44 PM |
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
--
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 12:15:33 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 03:09:04 PM |
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"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f7e1ba$0$26032$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been said
to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
Nice strawman. Who do you think is doing the lying?
Jim
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 02:58:13 PM |
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Clave wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f7e1ba$0$26032$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been said
to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
Nice strawman. Who do you think is doing the lying?
The pro-abortion movement.
Jim
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 03:43:21 PM |
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"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f807da$0$7774$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
Clave wrote:
"Michael Calwell" <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:41f7e1ba$0$26032$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been said
to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
Nice strawman. Who do you think is doing the lying?
The pro-abortion movement.
What lies? A cite would be nice.
Jim
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 06:54:30 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:58:13 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Clave wrote:
Nice strawman. Who do you think is doing the lying?
The pro-abortion movement.
No such thing exists.
--
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the
type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his
physical death is also beyond my comprehension,...; such notions are for the fears or
absurd egoism of feeble souls."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "nycgirl" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
30 Jan 2005 06:15:39 PM |
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Why do you post propaganda?
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| User: "Patrick Lee Humphrey" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
30 Jan 2005 07:41:58 PM |
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"nycgirl" <dsalitra1@yahoo.com> writes:
Why do you post propaganda?
For Calwell, it's easier than actually having to think.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2004-05 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Houston 3, Chicago 2 (January 29)
NEXT GAME: Wednesday, February 2 at Chicago, 7:05
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 11:30:49 PM |
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Michael Calwell <michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
And the people who promote the most lies have always been the
anti-abortion fanatics such as yourself.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 03:07:58 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:15:33 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
And the lie is?
--
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 03:07:25 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:15:33 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:10:16 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
As far as I can seem the memorial was erected by and for victims of
abortion.
People who make free choices aren't the victims of anyone but
themselves.
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
And the lie is?
The main lies are about what and who the unborn child is, what abortion
does, the psychological and emotional impact on the person having the
abortion, and the alternatives.
Structurally, however, the abortion industry has been built on lies. I
can add to these, but these might keep you going for a while.
CONFESSION OF AN EX-ABORTIONIST
By Dr. Bernard Nathanson
I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimises
my credentials
to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the
founders of the
National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws (NARAL) in
the U.S. in 1968.
A truthful poll of opinion then would have found that most
Americans were against
permissive abortion. Yet within five years we had convinced the
U.S. Supreme Court
to issue the decision which legalised abortion throughout America in
1973 and produced
virtual abortion on demand up to birth. How did we do this? It is
important to understand
the tactics involved because these tactics have been used throughout
the western world
with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law.
THE FIRST KEY TACTIC WAS TO CAPTURE THE MEDIA
We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a
liberal enlightened,
sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be
soundly defeated,
we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to
the media that we
had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive
abortion. This is
the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the
minority. We aroused
enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by
fabricating the number of
illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was
approaching 100,000 but
the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating
the big lie often
enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal
abortions was around
200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was
10,000. These false
figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many
that we needed to
crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through
the media was that
legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place
illegally would then
be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a
primary method of
birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has
increased by 1500% since
legalisation.
THE SECOND KEY TACTIC WAS TO PLAY THE CATHOLIC CARD
We systematically vilified the Catholic Church and its "socially
backward ideas" and
picked on the Catholic hierarchy as the villain in opposing abortion.
This theme was
played endlessly. We fed the media such lies as "we all know that
opposition to abortion
comes from the hierarchy and not from most Catholics" and "Polls
prove time and again
that most Catholics want abortion law reform". And the media drum-fired
all this into the
American people, persuading them that anyone opposing permissive
abortion must be under
the influence of the Catholic hierarchy and that Catholics in
favour of abortion are
enlightened and forward-looking. An inference of this tactic was that
there were no non-
Catholic groups opposing abortion. The fact that other Christian as well
as non-Christian
religions were {and still are) monolithically opposed to abortion
was constantly
suppressed, along with pro-life atheists' opinions.
THE THIRD KEY TACTIC WAS THE DENIGRATION AND SUPPRESSION OF ALL
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
I am often asked what made me change my mind. How did I change from
prominent abortionist
to pro-life advocate? In 1973, I became director of obstetrics of a
large hospital in New
York City and had to set up a prenatal research unit, just at the
start of a great new
technology which we now use every day to study the foetus in the womb.
A favourite pro-
abortion tactic is to insist that the definition of when life begins is
impossible; that
the question is a theological or moral or philosophical one, anything
but a scientific
one. Foetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at
conception and requires
all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may
well ask, do some
American doctors who are privy to the findings of foetology,
discredit themselves by
carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $300 a time, 1.55 million
abortions means an
industry generating $500,000,000 annually, of which most goes into
the pocket of the
physician doing the abortion. It is clear that permissive
abortion is purposeful
destruction of what is undeniably human life. It is an
impermissible act of deadly
violence. One must concede that unplanned pregnancy is a wrenchingly
difficult dilemma,
but to look for its solution in a deliberate act of destruction is
to trash the vast
resourcefulness of human ingenuity, and to surrender the public
weal to the classic
utilitarian answer to social problems.
AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
CONCEPTION
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 06:53:53 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:15:33 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
And the lie is?
The main lies are about what and who the unborn child is
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
what abortion does
It removes the fetus from the womb.
the psychological and emotional impact on the person having the
abortion
Varies with the person.
and the alternatives.
Women don't know the alternatives, and have no idea how to go about
finding out what they are? You have a very low opinion of women.
[snip]
AS A SCIENTIST I KNOW, NOT BELIEVE, KNOW THAT HUMAN LIFE BEGINS AT
CONCEPTION
Which 1) is patently false and 2) has nothing to do with the issue.
1) Human life begins ~8 million years ago, and continues, unbroken, to
this day. Human ova are "human life". Human sperm are "human life".
2) The issue is whether any rights the fetus may have override the
rights of the woman in whose womb it resides, not whether a human
fetus is human (it is) or whether it's alive (it is). But, then, so
are human fingers, the human appendix, a human tumor, etc.
Blanket prohibition of abortion ignores the fact that, in some
instances it's not *whether* the fetus shall die, but whether ONLY the
fetus shall die or whether both the woman and the fetus shall die.
Modifying the law to allow for the health or safety of the woman
changes it from "killing the fetus is wrong" to "killing the fetus
just because the woman wants to is wrong", and that's either
relegating the woman to slavery or claiming that she's incompetent.
--
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Dem Party Meltdown" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 07:56:31 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:p8egv05vb2fbj30a2dlt0o83ffsvbo28gh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:15:33 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Well, freedom of choice involves full information. One cannot have been
said to have had a free choice if one has been lied to.
And the lie is?
The main lies are about what and who the unborn child is
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
.....and thus a living human being.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 08:23:45 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:56:31 GMT, "Dem Party Meltdown"
<Losers@Losers.com> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:p8egv05vb2fbj30a2dlt0o83ffsvbo28gh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
....and thus a living human being.
Which a) in the eyes of the law is irrelevant and b) in the context of
this discussion is not something pregnant women don't know.
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Dem Party Meltdown" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 08:45:43 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l3kgv0dago26h6gsnbjq0qmau49hojntga@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:56:31 GMT, "Dem Party Meltdown"
<Losers@Losers.com> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:p8egv05vb2fbj30a2dlt0o83ffsvbo28gh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
....and thus a living human being.
Which a) in the eyes of the law is irrelevant and b) in the context of
this discussion is not something pregnant women don't know.
This isn't a law discussion, it is a science discussion. It has to do with
whether or not human life is being willfully destroyed.
The issue of whether or not the selfish women who hire some guy to kill a
live human being are aware of what they are doing is irrelevent also.
.
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 09:05:08 PM |
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"Dem Party Meltdown" <Losers@Losers.com> wrote in message
news:rBYJd.7982$cZ1.1581@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l3kgv0dago26h6gsnbjq0qmau49hojntga@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:56:31 GMT, "Dem Party Meltdown"
<Losers@Losers.com> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:p8egv05vb2fbj30a2dlt0o83ffsvbo28gh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
....and thus a living human being.
Which a) in the eyes of the law is irrelevant and b) in the context of
this discussion is not something pregnant women don't know.
This isn't a law discussion, it is a science discussion. It has to do with
whether or not human life is being willfully destroyed.
Science is silent on the issue of when "human beingness" is imparted on a fetus.
Jim
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 12:36:14 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:05:08 -0800, "Clave"
<ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> said in alt.atheism:
Science is silent on the issue of when "human beingness" is imparted on a fetus.
Science is silent on the definition of "human being".
--
"Given that you exist and that you are aware of your situation and
surroundings, you will find yourself in a place which has conditions
exactly suitable to your being there. If the environment was
hostile or incompatible in some important way then you would not be
there in the first place. Therefore the suitability and seeming
perfection of your universe cannot be taken as evidence of anything
more than your existence in it."
- Edward Warren, "The naturalistic fallacy"
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 12:35:46 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:45:43 GMT, "Dem Party Meltdown"
<Losers@Losers.com> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l3kgv0dago26h6gsnbjq0qmau49hojntga@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:56:31 GMT, "Dem Party Meltdown"
<Losers@Losers.com> said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:p8egv05vb2fbj30a2dlt0o83ffsvbo28gh@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:07:25 +0000, Michael Calwell
<michael.calwell@btopenworld.com> said in alt.atheism:
Opinion isn't subject to being called a lie, and "who and what" the
fetus is, is opinion The only fact is that it's a fetus..
....and thus a living human being.
Which a) in the eyes of the law is irrelevant and b) in the context of
this discussion is not something pregnant women don't know.
This isn't a law discussion, it is a science discussion.
No, it's a discussion about whether women are being lied to.
It has to do with whether or not human life is being willfully destroyed.
Human life is destroyed all the time with no one complaining. The
issue is whether a PERSON is being KILLED.
The issue of whether or not the selfish women who hire some guy to kill a
live human being are aware of what they are doing is irrelevent also.
Dishonest attempt to change "human life" to "a live human being"
noted. That's the best you can do? Move the goal posts?
"Human life" isn't protected. (Neither is "a human being", for that
matter.) Only persons are, human or otherwise, and the fetus isn't a
person.
--
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 01:35:24 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:9uciv0tsdnmttuk24rcs9ivu9ss9oqpqhv@4ax.com...
"Human life" isn't protected. (Neither is "a human being", for that
matter.) Only persons are, human or otherwise, and the fetus isn't a
person.
At what point do you believe human
life should be protected?
.
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