| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Auric Hellman" |
| Date: |
25 Jan 2005 06:05:30 AM |
| Object: |
Memorial wall for abortion victims |
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 22, 2005
BOULDER - The stars twinkled in a velvet black sky Friday as Diane
Sillstrop carried a candle for the twins she aborted in 1976 when she
was 21.
About 100 abortion foes joined Sillstrop to grieve at a Memorial Wall
for the Unborn in a graveyard at the Sacred Heart of Mary Church. They
carried candles and brought flowers for an estimated 5,000 fetuses who
have been buried at the church since 1996.
Catholic Church officials and volunteers plan to bury the remains from
another 1,000 fetuses Sunday. The burial coincides with the 32nd
anniversary today of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision that
legalized abortion.
The fetal remains came from the Boulder Abortion Clinic. Unbeknownst to
Dr. Warren Hern, director of the clinic, the Crist Mortuary of Boulder
had been picking up fetal remains and delivering them to the church.
Disturbed by the remains, church officials and abortion foes decided to
build the memorial wall, which they dedicated in 2000.
Hern blasted the Catholic Church for what he said was exploitation of
his patients' pain.
"I am appalled that the Catholic Church again has shown its willingness
to exploit the private grief and pain of women seeking legal abortions
in order to advance its political goals," Hern said in a written
statement. "I am also appalled that the officers of Crist Mortuary,
which performs important work requiring public trust . . . have
publicly admitted that they have collaborated with this cynical
exploitation of private grief for political purposes."
Advocates for abortion rights said that many women who received
abortions at Hern's clinic had babies with fatal abnormalities. Hern
said abortion foes would stop "at nothing to inflict guilt and to
compound the grief, sadness and sense of loss that these women
experience. These fanatics simply cannot leave other people alone with
their most intimate sorrow."
Sillstrop and other abortion foes said they understand why public
revelations about the burials have been so explosive, especially for
women whose fetuses may be buried at the church.
"I know this isn't easy," Sillstrop said. "I hope and pray that they
can find what I have found here - healing."
Any woman who has had an abortion can request an acknowledgment of her
fetus at the Memorial Wall. Church officials estimate there are between
100 and 200 such plaques.
Now 49, Sillstrop wishes she had kept her twins. A plaque in their
memory sits on the wall. It notes the day Sillstrop had her abortion,
Aug. 11, 1976, and says, "Your lives have touched many."
Sillstrop, who has had three other children and who has become a
counselor to girls considering abortion, thinks the wall is vital for
women dealing with the pain of a poor decision. "Abortion gnaws at the
soul," she said.
Susan LaVelle has been helping with the burials for years and has
counseled expectant mothers at the Real Choices Pregnancy Center in
Boulder.
She and Father Dorino DeLazzer of the Sacred Heart of Mary parish
decided last spring that they should tell the public about the fetal
remains.
LaVelle said she knows that the Boulder Abortion Clinic will
undoubtedly find a different way now to dispose of the remains. Even
so, she said it was vital to let people know how significant the wall
is.
"It gives everyone, whether they've had an abortion or not, a place to
grieve the loss of so many babies over the last 32 years," she said.
.
|
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| User: "amigo cabal" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 02:39:23 AM |
|
|
Don't you know that, all the abortion doctors are Jews. Doctor
Morgentaler, of Montreal, pioneered the chain production abortion system,
that could abort several hundred babies in a days work. Do you want deprive
him of his livelyhood?
You will be named an "anti semite" if you do not like Dr. Morgentaller!
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 22, 2005
BOULDER - The stars twinkled in a velvet black sky Friday as Diane
Sillstrop carried a candle for the twins she aborted in 1976 when she
was 21.
About 100 abortion foes joined Sillstrop to grieve at a Memorial Wall
for the Unborn in a graveyard at the Sacred Heart of Mary Church. They
carried candles and brought flowers for an estimated 5,000 fetuses who
have been buried at the church since 1996.
Catholic Church officials and volunteers plan to bury the remains from
another 1,000 fetuses Sunday. The burial coincides with the 32nd
anniversary today of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision that
legalized abortion.
The fetal remains came from the Boulder Abortion Clinic. Unbeknownst to
Dr. Warren Hern, director of the clinic, the Crist Mortuary of Boulder
had been picking up fetal remains and delivering them to the church.
Disturbed by the remains, church officials and abortion foes decided to
build the memorial wall, which they dedicated in 2000.
Hern blasted the Catholic Church for what he said was exploitation of
his patients' pain.
"I am appalled that the Catholic Church again has shown its willingness
to exploit the private grief and pain of women seeking legal abortions
in order to advance its political goals," Hern said in a written
statement. "I am also appalled that the officers of Crist Mortuary,
which performs important work requiring public trust . . . have
publicly admitted that they have collaborated with this cynical
exploitation of private grief for political purposes."
Advocates for abortion rights said that many women who received
abortions at Hern's clinic had babies with fatal abnormalities. Hern
said abortion foes would stop "at nothing to inflict guilt and to
compound the grief, sadness and sense of loss that these women
experience. These fanatics simply cannot leave other people alone with
their most intimate sorrow."
Sillstrop and other abortion foes said they understand why public
revelations about the burials have been so explosive, especially for
women whose fetuses may be buried at the church.
"I know this isn't easy," Sillstrop said. "I hope and pray that they
can find what I have found here - healing."
Any woman who has had an abortion can request an acknowledgment of her
fetus at the Memorial Wall. Church officials estimate there are between
100 and 200 such plaques.
Now 49, Sillstrop wishes she had kept her twins. A plaque in their
memory sits on the wall. It notes the day Sillstrop had her abortion,
Aug. 11, 1976, and says, "Your lives have touched many."
Sillstrop, who has had three other children and who has become a
counselor to girls considering abortion, thinks the wall is vital for
women dealing with the pain of a poor decision. "Abortion gnaws at the
soul," she said.
Susan LaVelle has been helping with the burials for years and has
counseled expectant mothers at the Real Choices Pregnancy Center in
Boulder.
She and Father Dorino DeLazzer of the Sacred Heart of Mary parish
decided last spring that they should tell the public about the fetal
remains.
LaVelle said she knows that the Boulder Abortion Clinic will
undoubtedly find a different way now to dispose of the remains. Even
so, she said it was vital to let people know how significant the wall
is.
"It gives everyone, whether they've had an abortion or not, a place to
grieve the loss of so many babies over the last 32 years," she said.
.
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|
| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
28 Jan 2005 02:09:50 AM |
|
|
"amigo cabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vpDJd.5925$r27.243@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Don't you know that, all the abortion doctors are Jews. Doctor
Morgentaler, of Montreal, pioneered the chain production abortion system,
that could abort several hundred babies in a days work. Do you want
deprive
him of his livelyhood?
You will be named an "anti semite" if you do not like Dr. Morgentaller!
You are a fucking anti-semite. A top-posting one at that. Top-posters please
cease to live.
PLOINK!
.
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| User: "Riain Y. Barton" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
28 Jan 2005 05:00:11 AM |
|
|
And you would be a bottom-posting NAZI.
Shabbat Shalom,
Riain Yehuda Barton
"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:O9hKd.7433$YD5.3450@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
|
| "amigo cabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.net> wrote in message
| news:vpDJd.5925$r27.243@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
| > Don't you know that, all the abortion doctors are Jews. Doctor
| > Morgentaler, of Montreal, pioneered the chain production abortion
system,
| > that could abort several hundred babies in a days work. Do you want
| deprive
| > him of his livelyhood?
| > You will be named an "anti semite" if you do not like Dr. Morgentaller!
| >
| You are a fucking anti-semite. A top-posting one at that. Top-posters
please
| cease to live.
| PLOINK!
|
.
|
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| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 01:54:45 AM |
|
|
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
By Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, Rocky Mountain News
January 22, 2005
BOULDER - The stars twinkled in a velvet black sky Friday as Diane
Sillstrop carried a candle for the twins she aborted in 1976 when she
was 21.
Why not 2 candles?
About 100 abortion foes joined Sillstrop to grieve at a Memorial Wall
for the Unborn in a graveyard at the Sacred Heart of Mary Church. They
carried candles and brought flowers for an estimated 5,000 fetuses who
have been buried at the church since 1996.
Why not carry candelabras?
Catholic Church officials and volunteers plan to bury the remains from
another 1,000 fetuses Sunday. The burial coincides with the 32nd
anniversary today of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision that
legalized abortion.
Roe vs. wade dloesn't cause abortion. You can't outlaw a technology. They
can't even outlaw booze and drugs. Or spam.
Abortion is caused by unemployment and attitudes towards unemployment. there
is more abortion now that the Republicans control the economy than before
they took over.
The fetal remains came from the Boulder Abortion Clinic. Unbeknownst to
Dr. Warren Hern, director of the clinic, the Crist Mortuary of Boulder
had been picking up fetal remains and delivering them to the church.
Disturbed by the remains, church officials and abortion foes decided to
build the memorial wall, which they dedicated in 2000.
Hern blasted the Catholic Church for what he said was exploitation of
his patients' pain.
"I am appalled that the Catholic Church again has shown its willingness
to exploit the private grief and pain of women seeking legal abortions
in order to advance its political goals," Hern said in a written
statement. "I am also appalled that the officers of Crist Mortuary,
which performs important work requiring public trust . . . have
publicly admitted that they have collaborated with this cynical
exploitation of private grief for political purposes."
Advocates for abortion rights said that many women who received
abortions at Hern's clinic had babies with fatal abnormalities. Hern
said abortion foes would stop "at nothing to inflict guilt and to
compound the grief, sadness and sense of loss that these women
experience. These fanatics simply cannot leave other people alone with
their most intimate sorrow."
Sillstrop and other abortion foes said they understand why public
revelations about the burials have been so explosive, especially for
women whose fetuses may be buried at the church.
"I know this isn't easy," Sillstrop said. "I hope and pray that they
can find what I have found here - healing."
Any woman who has had an abortion can request an acknowledgment of her
fetus at the Memorial Wall. Church officials estimate there are between
100 and 200 such plaques.
What if she doesn't fell comfortable with the stinking Catholic religion? I
suppose they don't care if she rots in Hell.
Now 49, Sillstrop wishes she had kept her twins. A plaque in their
memory sits on the wall. It notes the day Sillstrop had her abortion,
Aug. 11, 1976, and says, "Your lives have touched many."
Sillstrop, who has had three other children and who has become a
counselor to girls considering abortion, thinks the wall is vital for
women dealing with the pain of a poor decision. "Abortion gnaws at the
soul," she said.
Susan LaVelle has been helping with the burials for years and has
counseled expectant mothers at the Real Choices Pregnancy Center in
Boulder.
She and Father Dorino DeLazzer of the Sacred Heart of Mary parish
decided last spring that they should tell the public about the fetal
remains.
LaVelle said she knows that the Boulder Abortion Clinic will
undoubtedly find a different way now to dispose of the remains. Even
so, she said it was vital to let people know how significant the wall
is.
"It gives everyone, whether they've had an abortion or not, a place to
grieve the loss of so many babies over the last 32 years," she said.
The wall shows the insensitivity of a religious philosophy that condemns sex
and forbids its priests and priestesses to marry.
--
Take that! (Whack) And that! (Whack!)
And that! (Whack!) And that! (Whack!) And that! (Whack!) And that! (Whack!)
And that! (Whack!) And that! (Whack!) And that! (Whack!)
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 02:41:10 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 01:54:45 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
Roe vs. wade dloesn't cause abortion. You can't outlaw a technology. They
can't even outlaw booze and drugs. Or spam.
Abortion is caused by unemployment and attitudes towards unemployment. there
is more abortion now that the Republicans control the economy than before
they took over.
More terrorist activity against us, due to their actions, too, but
they won't accept responsibility for either one.
What if she doesn't fell comfortable with the stinking Catholic religion? I
suppose they don't care if she rots in Hell.
Mother <spit> Teresa didn't care. Painkillers for the Catholics and
"character-building" for the rest.
The wall shows the insensitivity of a religious philosophy that condemns sex
Unless it's between their priests and little boys.
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "kathryn" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 07:14:57 AM |
|
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"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Will you be holding a collection to support the mothers who went through
with their pregnancies?
.
|
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 05:17:08 PM |
|
|
"kathryn" <bob@bobbybobbobthebobster.com> wrote in message
news:ct4rlh$hdd$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
(Please note it was a male who posted this!)
Will you be holding a collection to support the mothers who went through
with their pregnancies?
Nah.
Nor will they be holding a vigil for the women who've died because they
couldn;t get legal abortions, due to the religious prejudices of vigil
holders.
Susan
.
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| User: "Nichevo" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
25 Jan 2005 05:24:01 PM |
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|
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
...
Nor will they be holding a vigil for the women who've died because
they
couldn;t get legal abortions, due to the religious prejudices of vigil
holders.
Nice non-sequitur's! Beautiful straw man! Susy, you are really proving
yourself!
(Please note it was a male who posted this!)
So what?
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 02:37:19 AM |
|
|
On 25 Jan 2005 09:24:01 -0800, "Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> said in
alt.atheism:
(Please note it was a male who posted this!)
So what?
So,if you're male, not a doctor and ex-utero, abortion is none of your
business.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Nichevo" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 02:47:48 AM |
|
|
So,if you're male, not a doctor and ex-utero, abortion is none of your
business.
I'll remember that next time circumcision comes up...
.
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| User: "Proud sponsor of the 2004 conservative mandate." |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 07:07:58 PM |
|
|
Susan Cohen wrote:
"kathryn" <bob@bobbybobbobthebobster.com> wrote in message
news:ct4rlh$hdd$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
Here's a question that I have. You used the term, "almost human." When
I hear that I think of the physical development of the child. It goes
from a bunch of DNA to a glob of cells... Things which cannot be
identified physically as being human - then to something that is
"almost human" - then to being an actual human being.
Could you tell me what the physical differences are between something
that is "almost human" to something is actually a "human"?
Or is this just a political description like it becomes "human" 6
months after conception or when it can survive outside the womb, or
it's head exits the birth canal or it's lived outside the womb for 2
months or it's walking and talking and it's skin is not black.
Could you clear that up for me? Thanks.
.
|
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 07:21:19 PM |
|
|
"Proud sponsor of the 2004 conservative mandate."
<caddyshack_al@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1106766478.494208.198360@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"kathryn" <bob@bobbybobbobthebobster.com> wrote in message
news:ct4rlh$hdd$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
Here's a question that I have. You used the term, "almost human."
Because I am not a doctor or a lawyer.
Should I say "not-yet-person?
I could have picked "zygote/embryo/fetus" but that's kind of unwieldy, no?
The point is that abortion is not murder and no one without a religious axe
to grind will tell you otherwise.
Susan
.
|
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| User: "Instig" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 07:23:50 PM |
|
|
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:P4SJd.139$Eh5.23@trnddc04...
"Proud sponsor of the 2004 conservative mandate."
<caddyshack_al@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1106766478.494208.198360@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"kathryn" <bob@bobbybobbobthebobster.com> wrote in message
news:ct4rlh$hdd$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
Here's a question that I have. You used the term, "almost human."
Because I am not a doctor or a lawyer.
Should I say "not-yet-person?
I could have picked "zygote/embryo/fetus" but that's kind of unwieldy, no?
The point is that abortion is not murder and no one without a religious
axe to grind will tell you otherwise.
Susan
that's simply not true. one of the most vehement anti-abortion people i
have ever met is also an atheist
whit
.
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| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 07:26:35 PM |
|
|
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:P4SJd.139$Eh5.23@trnddc04...
"Proud sponsor of the 2004 conservative mandate." <caddyshack_al@my-deja.com>
wrote in message news:1106766478.494208.198360@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"kathryn" <bob@bobbybobbobthebobster.com> wrote in message
news:ct4rlh$hdd$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
"Auric Hellman" <adhellman@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:1106633130.870524.84030@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
100 hold vigil at memorial wall for buried fetuses
Because "almost humans" are more important than actual women.
Here's a question that I have. You used the term, "almost human."
Because I am not a doctor or a lawyer.
Should I say "not-yet-person?
I could have picked "zygote/embryo/fetus" but that's kind of unwieldy, no?
The point is that abortion is not murder and no one without a religious axe to
grind will tell you otherwise.
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
.
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| User: "Clave" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 09:10:41 PM |
|
|
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.
Jim
.
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| User: "Instig" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 09:41:53 PM |
|
|
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.
Jim
beyond absurd
just because one is a theist AND believes abortion is wrong doesn't mean
necessarily mean one has an axe to grind
however, the undeniable fact that some ATHEISTS believe abortion is wrong,
clearly shows you don't need a religious axe to grind to believe that
i am pro-choice, and i constantly disgusted by the rhetoric of clave and his
ilk since it does the cause a disservice.
whit
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 03:57:00 AM |
|
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"Instig" <nation@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:35qh50F4qsu0tU1@individual.net...
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.
Jim
beyond absurd
This is a ridiculous answer.
He is absolutely right.
just because one is a theist AND believes abortion is wrong doesn't mean
necessarily mean one has an axe to grind
Yes, it does; the axe being their own beliefs.
however, the undeniable fact that some ATHEISTS believe abortion is wrong,
And are they willing to force their opinions on other people?
clearly shows you don't need a religious axe to grind to believe that
Okay then, let's say faith or belief.
I didn;t mean a specific religious view, certainly.
That's what it boils down to.
Bob certainly shows that.
i am pro-choice, and i constantly disgusted by the rhetoric of clave and
his ilk since it does the cause a disservice.
His rhetoric is fine if only because he's correct.
Susan
whit
.
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| User: "Instig" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 04:45:31 AM |
|
|
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:gEZJd.268$Eh5.257@trnddc04...
"Instig" <nation@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:35qh50F4qsu0tU1@individual.net...
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.
Jim
beyond absurd
This is a ridiculous answer.
He is absolutely right.
he is (as usual) absolutely wrong
i am pro-choice. i have friends who are pro-choice and who are pro-life
i know two people who are ATHEISTS and BELIEVE abortion is wrong
so, neither has an religious axe to grind, since they are atheists.
both believe abortion is wrong
it's simply factually incorrect to believe that people who believe abortion
is wrong are all doing it because of religious convictions
furthermore, using the "religious axe to gring thang" is absurd. MLK stated
that his faith and belief system inspired his belief in equality between the
races. does that mean that he had a "religious axe to grind" when he was
fighting for equality?
it's absurd, and arguably bigoted. it discounts the atheists/agnostics who
are against abortion (they DO exist) and belittles others who may be theists
but don't specifically believe abortion is wrong because of their religion,
etc.
just because one is a theist AND believes abortion is wrong doesn't mean
necessarily mean one has an axe to grind
Yes, it does; the axe being their own beliefs.
wrong. just because somebody is a theist and believes abortion is wrong, it
does not follow that it is their religious belief that brought them to that
conclusion
and since plenty of atheists are against abortion, it's also bogus.
however, the undeniable fact that some ATHEISTS believe abortion is
wrong,
And are they willing to force their opinions on other people?
of course
plenty of atheists believe murder is wrong, too
or that slavery should be against the law
those beliefs are forced on others as well
clearly shows you don't need a religious axe to grind to believe that
Okay then, let's say faith or belief.
I didn;t mean a specific religious view, certainly.
That's what it boils down to.
Bob certainly shows that.
"belief" is fine
one can believe rape is wrong because of "belief" too
there is a big difference between BELIEF and a "religious axe to grind"
an atheist can believe Act X should be illegal. any belief that something
should be illegal, or is wrong, is obviously based on belief
that says NOTHING
but what clave said is wrong
and pro-life atheists are proof positive that he is wrong
i am pro-choice, and i constantly disgusted by the rhetoric of clave and
his ilk since it does the cause a disservice.
His rhetoric is fine if only because he's correct.
he's not correct. you already admitted so when you said it can be merely
"belief". ALL stances regarding ANY law or act are based on "belief". i
believe murder should be illegal. BELIEF.
if an atheist can be pro-life (and many are), then they cannot also have a
religious axe to grind vis a vis abortion
it's absurd, nonsensical, and arguably bigoted. it's typical of clave, and
the NARAL left
as a pro-choice person who has attended NARAL meetings, i am disgusted with
the rhetoric, the lies, and the bigoted attitudes they have, on the whole
whit
Susan
whit
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| User: "Charlie Wilkes" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 07:50:08 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:45:31 -0800, "Instig" <nation@earthlink.net>
wrote:
i am pro-choice. i have friends who are pro-choice and who are pro-life
i know two people who are ATHEISTS and BELIEVE abortion is wrong
In my experience that is unusual.
so, neither has an religious axe to grind, since they are atheists.
both believe abortion is wrong
it's simply factually incorrect to believe that people who believe abortion
is wrong are all doing it because of religious convictions
The anti-abortion people I have known have all been quite religious.
The crux of their argument is that people have no right to destroy an
emerging human life, because it is a sacred creation of God.
Without a divine creator, it comes down to a social contract
established among people to serve their needs. Who is enfranchised
and who is not? As you say yourself in another post, it is arbitrary.
Charlie
furthermore, using the "religious axe to gring thang" is absurd. MLK stated
that his faith and belief system inspired his belief in equality between the
races. does that mean that he had a "religious axe to grind" when he was
fighting for equality?
it's absurd, and arguably bigoted. it discounts the atheists/agnostics who
are against abortion (they DO exist) and belittles others who may be theists
but don't specifically believe abortion is wrong because of their religion,
etc.
just because one is a theist AND believes abortion is wrong doesn't mean
necessarily mean one has an axe to grind
Yes, it does; the axe being their own beliefs.
wrong. just because somebody is a theist and believes abortion is wrong, it
does not follow that it is their religious belief that brought them to that
conclusion
and since plenty of atheists are against abortion, it's also bogus.
however, the undeniable fact that some ATHEISTS believe abortion is
wrong,
And are they willing to force their opinions on other people?
of course
plenty of atheists believe murder is wrong, too
or that slavery should be against the law
those beliefs are forced on others as well
clearly shows you don't need a religious axe to grind to believe that
Okay then, let's say faith or belief.
I didn;t mean a specific religious view, certainly.
That's what it boils down to.
Bob certainly shows that.
"belief" is fine
one can believe rape is wrong because of "belief" too
there is a big difference between BELIEF and a "religious axe to grind"
an atheist can believe Act X should be illegal. any belief that something
should be illegal, or is wrong, is obviously based on belief
that says NOTHING
but what clave said is wrong
and pro-life atheists are proof positive that he is wrong
i am pro-choice, and i constantly disgusted by the rhetoric of clave and
his ilk since it does the cause a disservice.
His rhetoric is fine if only because he's correct.
he's not correct. you already admitted so when you said it can be merely
"belief". ALL stances regarding ANY law or act are based on "belief". i
believe murder should be illegal. BELIEF.
if an atheist can be pro-life (and many are), then they cannot also have a
religious axe to grind vis a vis abortion
it's absurd, nonsensical, and arguably bigoted. it's typical of clave, and
the NARAL left
as a pro-choice person who has attended NARAL meetings, i am disgusted with
the rhetoric, the lies, and the bigoted attitudes they have, on the whole
whit
Susan
whit
.
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| User: "Stochi" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 04:48:07 PM |
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"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in message
news:707hv0l90lshfu7hlnrr1oevl1c11cnssa@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:45:31 -0800, "Instig" <nation@earthlink.net>
wrote:
i am pro-choice. i have friends who are pro-choice and who are pro-life
i know two people who are ATHEISTS and BELIEVE abortion is wrong
In my experience that is unusual.
it most definitely is. i agree
my point is to use it counter clave's claim about it being a religious axe
to grind, when people are anti-abortion. that's his claim. it's wrong
it demonstrably, in SOME cases, is not
that's my point
pro-life does notnecessarily = theism
in most cases, pro-life is correlated with theism (although many theists are
pro-choice), but it is not a NECESSARY component thereof
so, neither has an religious axe to grind, since they are atheists.
both believe abortion is wrong
it's simply factually incorrect to believe that people who believe
abortion
is wrong are all doing it because of religious convictions
The anti-abortion people I have known have all been quite religious.
fine. i am saying many/most are
but not ALL
thus, it sometimes has NOTHING to do with religion
The crux of their argument is that people have no right to destroy an
emerging human life, because it is a sacred creation of God.
that is the argument that MANY use to be pro-life. but not ALL
that's my point
i totally agree that MOST pro-lifers are that way.
but that's not what clave said
Without a divine creator, it comes down to a social contract
established among people to serve their needs. Who is enfranchised
and who is not? As you say yourself in another post, it is arbitrary.
where the line is drawn is arbitrary.
correct.
much like drinking age, voting age, cigarette age, age of consent
whit
Charlie
furthermore, using the "religious axe to gring thang" is absurd. MLK
stated
that his faith and belief system inspired his belief in equality between
the
races. does that mean that he had a "religious axe to grind" when he was
fighting for equality?
it's absurd, and arguably bigoted. it discounts the atheists/agnostics
who
are against abortion (they DO exist) and belittles others who may be
theists
but don't specifically believe abortion is wrong because of their
religion,
etc.
just because one is a theist AND believes abortion is wrong doesn't
mean
necessarily mean one has an axe to grind
Yes, it does; the axe being their own beliefs.
wrong. just because somebody is a theist and believes abortion is wrong,
it
does not follow that it is their religious belief that brought them to
that
conclusion
and since plenty of atheists are against abortion, it's also bogus.
however, the undeniable fact that some ATHEISTS believe abortion is
wrong,
And are they willing to force their opinions on other people?
of course
plenty of atheists believe murder is wrong, too
or that slavery should be against the law
those beliefs are forced on others as well
clearly shows you don't need a religious axe to grind to believe that
Okay then, let's say faith or belief.
I didn;t mean a specific religious view, certainly.
That's what it boils down to.
Bob certainly shows that.
"belief" is fine
one can believe rape is wrong because of "belief" too
there is a big difference between BELIEF and a "religious axe to grind"
an atheist can believe Act X should be illegal. any belief that something
should be illegal, or is wrong, is obviously based on belief
that says NOTHING
but what clave said is wrong
and pro-life atheists are proof positive that he is wrong
i am pro-choice, and i constantly disgusted by the rhetoric of clave
and
his ilk since it does the cause a disservice.
His rhetoric is fine if only because he's correct.
he's not correct. you already admitted so when you said it can be merely
"belief". ALL stances regarding ANY law or act are based on "belief". i
believe murder should be illegal. BELIEF.
if an atheist can be pro-life (and many are), then they cannot also have a
religious axe to grind vis a vis abortion
it's absurd, nonsensical, and arguably bigoted. it's typical of clave,
and
the NARAL left
as a pro-choice person who has attended NARAL meetings, i am disgusted
with
the rhetoric, the lies, and the bigoted attitudes they have, on the whole
whit
Susan
whit
.
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| User: "Charlie Wilkes" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
28 Jan 2005 06:39:17 AM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:48:07 -0800, "Stochi" <astic@hotmail.com>
wrote:
thus, it sometimes has NOTHING to do with religion
The crux of their argument is that people have no right to destroy an
emerging human life, because it is a sacred creation of God.
that is the argument that MANY use to be pro-life. but not ALL
Sure, some people with a secular mindset no doubt regard abortion as a
crime against nature and/or an instrument of social decay. But they
are not an organized political force.
that's my point
i totally agree that MOST pro-lifers are that way.
but that's not what clave said
Ok, so you have proven you are right on a narrow point. What is your
broad view on the subject of abortion? I'll tell you mine. I think
unmarried pregnant women should get paid cash on the barrel, no
questions asked, for every abortion they have, and even more for
undergoing sterilization. I'd pay those taxes in a heartbeat, because
it no doubt would lead to a much healthier society.
I'd also be happy to go along with infanticide, up to about 2 years,
or even 3 for real brats.
Charlie
.
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| User: "Sangfroid" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
28 Jan 2005 06:48:12 AM |
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"Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@users.easynews.com> wrote in message
news:gjmjv0haksod3a5a3n50vf391f3583q4ak@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:48:07 -0800, "Stochi" <astic@hotmail.com>
wrote:
thus, it sometimes has NOTHING to do with religion
The crux of their argument is that people have no right to destroy an
emerging human life, because it is a sacred creation of God.
that is the argument that MANY use to be pro-life. but not ALL
Sure, some people with a secular mindset no doubt regard abortion as a
crime against nature and/or an instrument of social decay. But they
are not an organized political force.
i agree.
not in and of themselves
but they are part of the pro-life movement
that's my point
i totally agree that MOST pro-lifers are that way.
but that's not what clave said
Ok, so you have proven you are right on a narrow point. What is your
broad view on the subject of abortion?
i believe in abortion on demand in 1st trimester
i am somewhat undecided on exactly when it should be allowed on demand in
second trimester
i am against it, unless the woman's life is in danger, in the third
I'll tell you mine. I think
unmarried pregnant women should get paid cash on the barrel, no
questions asked, for every abortion they have, and even more for
undergoing sterilization. I'd pay those taxes in a heartbeat, because
it no doubt would lead to a much healthier society.
that's actually kind of funny, in that there was a recent study i read
somewhere that actually made the claim that abortion could be credited for
part of the crime rate drop and some other positive social impacts
controversial, cerainly
fwiw, i am generally against the "war on drugs", however i have a serious
problem with drug addicted women who get pregnant, and drug addicted men who
impregnate them
the social pathology is hyooge
I'd also be happy to go along with infanticide, up to about 2 years,
or even 3 for real brats.
Charlie
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 09:23:22 PM |
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"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.
What pure *****.
.
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| User: "Instig" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
26 Jan 2005 09:39:55 PM |
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:POTJd.10639$ud3.2806@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.
What pure *****.
it's amazing. even for clave
whit
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 03:49:03 AM |
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"Instig" <nation@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:35qh19F4nt1saU1@individual.net...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:POTJd.10639$ud3.2806@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to
grind.
What pure *****.
it's amazing. even for clave
Really? I've seen him be this right before.
And I notice that Bob ducked the point.
Because he *knows* Clave is right.
Susan
whit
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 03:55:59 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:PwZJd.262$Eh5.202@trnddc04...
"Instig" <nation@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:35qh19F4nt1saU1@individual.net...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:POTJd.10639$ud3.2806@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Clave" <ClaviusNoSpamDammit@CableSpeed.com> wrote in message
news:10vg1i5f5a7he7a@news.supernews.com...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:Y5SJd.97278$zy6.90649@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<...>
I have no religious axe to grind and I believe
abortion after 5 weeks should be considered
murder.
Why?
If your answer begins with "I believe," you have a religious axe to grind.
What pure *****.
it's amazing. even for clave
Really? I've seen him be this right before.
And I notice that Bob ducked the point.
Because he *knows* Clave is right.
You should pay better attention. Or perhaps
you haven't caught up with the thread.
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 04:31:10 AM |
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"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:QyZJd.10764$ud3.8257@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:PwZJd.262$Eh5.202@trnddc04...
Really? I've seen him be this right before.
And I notice that Bob ducked the point.
Because he *knows* Clave is right.
You should pay better attention. Or perhaps
you haven't caught up with the thread.
I am paying attention.
It's how I see that you haven't come up with anything but your own opinions
which are based solely on what you want to believe. Just like I said.
Susan
.
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 04:42:30 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:i8_Jd.297$Eh5.84@trnddc04...
"Bob" <no@email.address> wrote in message
news:QyZJd.10764$ud3.8257@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Susan Cohen" <flavia13@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:PwZJd.262$Eh5.202@trnddc04...
Really? I've seen him be this right before.
And I notice that Bob ducked the point.
Because he *knows* Clave is right.
You should pay better attention. Or perhaps
you haven't caught up with the thread.
I am paying attention.
It's how I see that you haven't come up with anything but your own opinions
which are based solely on what you want to believe. Just like I said.
Bob seems to be under the all-too-common delusion that religious beliefs
necessarily involve some church.
Amazing how many people are incapable of making the distinction.
Jim
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| User: "Nichevo" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 04:46:34 AM |
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I am paying attention.
It's how I see that you haven't come up with anything but your own
opinions
which are based solely on what you want to believe. Just like I said.
In essence Susan, you have a good point, the only thing is that you
have confused religion and morality... This is NOT to be taken in a
deraogatory manner, or as flamebait BTW.
I myself would slant towards to life side of the debate simply due to
the potential that a fetus represents. Potential is, after all, what
humans are all about. I would also consider myself pretty
anti-religion.*
*Septagramism is a spiritual philosophy with dogma(and maybe
corruption) thrown in as a side measure, NOT a religion.
Praise be to #99
.
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: Memorial wall for abortion victims |
27 Jan 2005 05:10:46 AM |
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"Nichevo" <nichevo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106801194.394606.279960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
<...>
In essence Susan, you have a good point, the only thing is that you
have confused religion and morality... This is NOT to be taken in a
deraogatory manner, or as flamebait BTW.
But religion is not church -- *any* belief without data can be considered
religious to some degree, and that certainly includes moral beliefs (which is
not to say that morality necessarily derives from religion).
I myself would slant towards to life side of the debate simply due to
the potential that a fetus represents. Potential is, after all, what
humans are all about. I would also consider myself pretty
anti-religion.*
I can respect that, but for me, it's a question of overlapping rights, and
lacking further data, I'm on the side of the mother's rights until (at least)
the beginning of the third trimester.
Jim
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