Steve Krulick wrote:

GreyCloud wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

Scout <4guns@adelphia.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:

"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ctmro2$3c7$1@bolt.sonic.net...

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:8YednQoCopqaVWDcRVn-tg@comcast.com:

"Gactimus" <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote

Interesting that the Democrats tried multiple
times to overturn the 2000 election and in
each case lost,

In a five-to-four partisan decision that admittedly
ignored Florida law AND dismissed the actual
vote count as irrelevant?

Florida election law says Bush won.

It does not.

Actually it does.

The US Supreme Court said that Bush won.

The moment those counties failed to certify their results
by 5pm on the 11th day, Bush won because hundreds of thousands of Gore votes

"Screw democracy and screw America. We won."

That's right, because we live in a Republic.

You neocon morons still haven't figured out what the words mean.

Here's a clue, idiot: The US is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.

Got proof??

Madison, in the Federalist (14) draws a distinction between a
republic and a "true" or "pure" democracy: "It is, that in a
democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in
person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their
representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be
confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a
large region... As the natural limit of a democracy is that
distance from the central point which will just permit the most
remote citizens to assemble as often as their public functions
demand, and will include no greater number than can join in
those functions."

That being said, democracy IS currently defined as:
"a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people
and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of
representation usually involving periodically held free
elections."

That is certainly broader than Madison's "true" democracy, but
certain trolls and disingenuous obfuscators wish to ignore how
words are actually used in context, but, like Humpty Dumpty, use
words just as they want to use them, even defining OTHER persons
idiosyncratically.

Is this the old "We're a REPUBLIC, NOT a DEMOCRACY!" wheeze?

If so, ObiRush has brainwashed you well, young Jedi!

Here's another one: "Dubya is a husband, not a father." One
more: "Ice Cream is a dessert, not a food."

See the way this works... say that something is one thing, and
therefore can't be something else. Now, maybe this can work in
clearly mutually exclusionary cases -- "Steve is a boy, not a
girl" -- but that isn't always so.

We live in a constitutional representative democratic republic.
We live in a republican democracy.

Why don't we see what the dictionaries say:

Democracy:

Merriam-Webster New Collegiate: 1b) a government in which the
supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them
directly or indirectly through a system of representation usu.
involving periodically held free elections.

American Heritage Dictionary: 1) Government by the people,
exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

Let's see what Dubya said at his first Inaugurauction:

"Through much of the last century, America's faith in freedom
and democracy was a rock in a raging sea. Now it is a seed upon
the wind, taking root in many nations. Our democratic faith is
more than the creed of our country. It is the in-born hope of
our humanity, an ideal we carry but do not own, a trust we bear
and pass along... The most important tasks of a democracy are
done by everyone..."

Personally, I think he's bloviating; and since the majority of
voters did NOT vote for him, but he claims to be Prez in spite
of that, and stole a second election, I think he should be
restricted from using the word "democracy," and have his
knuckles rapped each time he utters the sacred meme.

How about another prez, Ike, at his farewell from office?:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the
acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or
unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for
the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our
liberties or democratic processes... It is the task of
statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and
other forces, new and old, within the principles of our
democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our
free society... We want democracy to survive for all generations
to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow..."

I could go on and on with speeches from US presidents and
from public documents going back over two hundred years, all
matter-of-factly referring to the US as a democracy, indeed, the
world's oldest continuous democracy. (What do you think
Jefferson and his colleagues were thinking when they called
their political party "Democrat-Republican"?)

Trent Lott called Sen. Jeffords move to independence: "... the
impetuous decision of one man to undermine our democracy!" OUR
democracy? What do you think he was talking about? Is Lott
standing at the head of some mob rule tyranny of the masses we
never realized? Does he really believe in direct voting on
legislation by the mob? Or was he just posturing and bloviating
like Bush?

Do YOU want to adhere to some musty and narrow Aristotelian
equation that makes democracy = mob rule = tyranny of the
masses?

I will only accept people using Aristotle's narrow definition of
democracy (mob rule! tyranny of the masses!) if they can explain
it in original Greek!

Are you a strict Aristotelian who can't abide standard usage of
words as they've been used for over two hundred years? To quote
fellow poster mahabarbara:

Yes, the United States is an indirect or representative democracy,
which is a type of democracy.

The United States is NOT a pure or direct democracy, which is another
type of democracy.

Tell me ... where did all this hysteria about "democracy" come from?
It's true the Founding Fathers (who were, after all, a pack of 18th
century aristocrats) didn't use the word much, but since about the
1820s people commonly referred to the United States as a democracy,
understanding "democracy" to mean what it literally means -- rule of
the people. We've managed to limp along all these years like that.
What's the deal?

Indeed, here's some commentary from the First Congress, 1789,
during debates over the 1st Amen:

GALES & SEATON'S HISTORY OF DEBATES IN CONGRESS
761-762 / 771-772
August 15, 1789 Amendments to the Constitution

Mr. Page: ... The gentleman from Pennsylvania tells you, that in
England this principle is doubted; how far this is consonant
with the nature of the Government I will not pretend to say; but
I am not astonished to find that the administrators of a
monarchical Government are unassailable by the weak voice of the
people; but under a DEMOCRACY, whose great end is to form a code
of laws congenial with the public sentiment, the popular opinion
ought to be collected and attended to. Our present object is, I
presume, to secure to our constituents and to posterity these
inestimable rights. Our Government is derived from the people,
of consequence the people have a right to consult for the common
good; but to what end will this be done, if they have not the
power of instructing their representatives? Instruction and
representation in a republic appear to me to be inseparably
connected; but were I the subject of a monarch, I should doubt
whether the public good did not depend more upon the prince's
will than the will of the people...

Mr. Gerry: There was one remark which escaped him, when he was
up before. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Stone) had said that
amendment would change the nature of the Government, and make it
a DEMOCRACY. Now he had always heard that it WAS a DEMOCRACY;
but perhaps he was misled and the honorable gentleman was right
in distinguishing it by some other appellation; perhaps an
aristocracy was a term better adapted to it.
[Gerry's use of sarcasm noted]

Mr. Page: ... [The amendment] was strictly compatible with the
spirit and the nature of the Government; all power vests in the
people of the United States; it is, therefore, a Government OF
THE PEOPLE, A DEMOCRACY. If it were consistent with the peace
and tranquillity of the inhabitants, every freeman would have a
right to come and give his vote upon the law; but, inasmuch as
this cannot he done, by reason of the extent of territory, and
some other causes, the people have agreed that their
representatives shall exercise a part of their authority...

If you looked real close and paid attention to your current
surroundings, the best that this country can be called now
is the Socialist Republic of America.

"RD (The Sandman)" wrote:

GreyCloud wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> wrote:

Ray Fischer wrote:

Scout <4guns@adelphia.removeme.this2.nospam.net> wrote:

"Ray Fischer" <rfischer@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ctmro2$3c7$1@bolt.sonic.net...

Gactimus <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote:

"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:8YednQoCopqaVWDcRVn-tg@comcast.com:

"Gactimus" <gactimus@xrs.net> wrote

Interesting that the Democrats tried multiple
times to overturn the 2000 election and in
each case lost,

In a five-to-four partisan decision that admittedly
ignored Florida law AND dismissed the actual
vote count as irrelevant?

Florida election law says Bush won.

It does not.

Actually it does.

The US Supreme Court said that Bush won.

The moment those counties failed to certify their results
by 5pm on the 11th day, Bush won because hundreds of thousands of Gore votes

"Screw democracy and screw America. We won."

That's right, because we live in a Republic.

You neocon morons still haven't figured out what the words mean.

Here's a clue, idiot: The US is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC.

Got proof??

If you look at the definitions of a republic and a representative
democracy, they can be the same.

re·pub·lic n.

1.
1. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and
in modern times is usually a president.
2. A nation that has such a political order.
2.
1. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body
of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives
responsible to them.
2. A nation that has such a political order.
3. often Republic A specific republican government of a
nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and
territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or
field: the republic of letters.

de·moc·ra·cy Audio pronunciation of "democracy" ( P ) Pronunciation
Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or *through
elected representatives.*
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political
power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual
within a community.

*=emphasis mine.

Democracy ( def. )

Three wolves and a lamb voting on what's for supper.