| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
08 Jun 2005 07:12:27 AM |
| Object: |
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? Article and rebuttal
This was sent us in email quite some time ago ( 8/16/2003 ). . It still is
relevant today.
***********************************************************************************
Published Friday
November 2, 2001
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American?
BY THOMAS MARTIN
The writer is a professor of Philosophy at the University of Nebraska at
Kearney
Jeremy Patrick, in his article, "Patriotism can exist without bows to God"
(Oct. 16 More Commentary), notes, "The problem with the use of religious
terminology by the government is not that atheists are offended (though we
are) or that we feel excluded (though that certainly occurs, too) but that
we understand better than most the dangers that occur when the government
becomes enmeshed with religion."
The question Mr. Patrick ought to be asking is not whether the government
has a right to use religious terminology but whether a citizen who
professes to be an atheist is an American.
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
The Declaration of Independence condemns atheism, as it names the Creator,
and not the government, as the ultimate authority from whom the citizens'
rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are derived.
In fact, Mr. Patrick will see as he reads the next line of the declaration
that the government of America was established to protect exactly these
rights bestowed upon man by his Creator.
Thus, if the government does not uphold our God-given rights as Americans,
it is our obligation to "alter or abolish" the government and institute
one that ensures our rights.
The necessity of forming ourselves under government and granting to our
governmental officials the power to enact laws for the public safety and to
enforce them with the proper penalties arises from each person being in a
fallen state. If we were in the perfect state, such as the Garden of Eden
before the fall, we would not need to form a government.
Given that God grants man his right to life, and the liberty to pursue
happiness, it is only by freely dedicating one's life to pursuing God's
will that man will ever attain the happiness for which he is meant. (Could
a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian fail to understand this?)
Man as his Creator's creature is not an animal. What distinguishes man from
the animals is that he is an individual with a soul, invested with moral
powers and faculties, by which he is able to discern the difference between
right and wrong, truth and falsehood, good and evil.
Conversely, an atheist holds man to be an animal and not a creature of God
- and therefore without a fixed nature and an immortal soul. When man is
believed to be an animal, his God-given ability to reason from and toward
the truth is reduced to only acting upon his appetites and rationalizing
his desires.
By rejecting the source of his unalienable rights, an atheist denies the
source of his rights as an American. In fact, an atheist does not recognize
individuals; instead, he will lump man in classes - for example,
proletariat and bourgeois.
Furthermore, as a materialist, he will not argue that a man is free to
claim responsibility for his actions. Man, like other animals, is the
product of his material conditions whose behaviors (reactions, not
actions) are caused by the chemical responses in the brain to some
oppressive force or stimulus of his environment.
Having denied the rights bestowed upon man by his Creator, and with them
his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, Mr. Patrick
paradoxically thinks Americans ought to respect his lack of belief. He
wrote:
"I can respect, tolerate and even encourage private citizens to express
their religious beliefs, because I know that I have the exact same
opportunity to express my own (or lack thereof). But I cannot tolerate it
when some private citizens, even a majority of them, have hijacked the
government into endorsing their religious beliefs in a way that I can't
match."
By using the word "hijacked," doesn't Mr. Patrick, who professes tolerance,
really display his intolerance for Christianity? Did our Founding Fathers
hijack government? Or did not they, using Mr. Patrick's implied metaphor,
try to develop a plane in which people of diverse races and beliefs might
fly - with, of course, certain unalienable rights?
Mr. Patrick is right to argue that the Constitution does not allow the
majority to impose its religious beliefs on the minority. However, he is
wrong to think that, while the Bill of Rights allows freedom of religion
and freedom of speech, an American would ever respect his freedom from
religion any more than his freedom from speech. To deny the first reduces
us to animals. To deny the second reduces us to slaves.
And so it goes.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Thomas Martin ("Are Atheists American?" November 2, 2001) detects "dogmatic
and theological lucidity" in the inclusion of the word "Creator" in the
second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, to the point that he
questions whether atheists are rightfully called Americans. The historical
record shows him to be completely mistaken.
The Declaration begins and says, in part, "When in the course of human
events it becomes necessary for one people … to assume among the powers of
the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of
nature's god entitle them…" This phrase is lacking entirely Martin's
dogmatic and theological lucidity, reflecting as it does the Deistic views
of Thomas Jefferson, the principal author of the Declaration.
Jefferson's stand on the question of atheists' rightful place in civil
affairs is well known, perhaps stated most clearly in [begin
underlining]Notes on the State of Virginia[end underlining], written in
1781 and 1782. "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts
only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour
to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor
breaks my leg."
Jefferson was lamenting the fact that people could still be prosecuted for
heresy under the common law and suffer civil penalties, even though in
1776, the then-new government of Virginia had removed criminal provisions
proscribing religious opinions, consistent with the Virginia Declaration of
Rights of that same year. Virginia did later pass a religious freedom bill
in 1786, drafted by Jefferson seven years earlier, which declared that "all
men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions
in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish,
enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
Jefferson adopted the fundamental concepts of the Declaration's second
paragraph from the aforementioned Virginia Declaration of Rights, authored
by George Mason and published in Philadelphia in June 1776, just as
Jefferson began drafting the Declaration. Mason's draft stated that "all
men are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent
natural rights, of which they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest
their posterity, among which are the enjoyment of life and liberty, with
the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining
happiness and safety."
Jefferson's original draft had largely followed this form, substituting
"created" for "born" and otherwise improving the language. When it was
reported out of the Committee of Five, which included John Adams and
Benjamin Franklin, "Creator" had been added. The Second Continental
Congress heavily edited the text, however, among other things, inserting
two additional references to the divine in the last paragraph. Did this,
then, reflect the more general sense of the country acting through its
representatives, asserting Martin's dogma and theology?
Again, the historical record shows otherwise. "Not one revolutionary state
bill of rights used the words 'all men are created equal,'" according to
Pauline Maier, author of [begin underlining]American Scripture: Making the
Declaration of Independence[end underlining]. Adopted mainly after July
1776, they all reverted back to variations of the Mason form and its
assertion of man's "inherent natural rights" with no reference to endowment
by the Creator.
Finally, the Constitutional Convention in 1787 produced a purely secular
document, stating unambiguously "no religious Test shall ever be required
as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
During the ratification debates, many expressed views similar to Martin's
and favored a religious test, but the sentiment that prevailed was
expressed well by James Iredell of North Carolina, who later served as a
Justice on the Supreme Court. "But it is objected that the people of
America may, perhaps, choose representatives who have no religion at all,
and that pagans and Mahometans may be admitted into offices. But how is it
possible to exclude any set of men, without taking away that principle of
religious freedom which we ourselves so warmly contend for?"
Martin's attempt to so exclude atheists harkens back to an ancient concept
of the relation of religion and government that was firmly and
categorically rejected in the creation of the United States, among the most
uniquely American and revolutionary achievements of that era. No doubt
there were many then, as now, who would have had it otherwise. But it is
clear that while being an atheist is not central to being an American,
recognizing the right to be one is.
By Sanford M. Goodman
The writer, of Omaha, is an independent business consultant.
Sources:
Information as to the drafting of the Declaration, including the quotation
from the Virginia Declaration, was taken from American Scripture: Making
the Declaration of Independence, by Pauline Maier, Alfred A. Knopf, New
York, 1997
The no religious test clause is in Article VI, Clause 3 of the Constitution
of the United States.
The Iredell quote is from North Carolina State Constitutional Ratifying
Convention Debates--The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the
Adoption of the Federal Constitution as Recommended by the General
Convention at Philadelphia in 1787, Vol IV, by Jonathan Elliot. J. B.
Lippincott Company 1888. Pages 191-200. as cited at
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/testban6.htm
**********************************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 07:05:20 AM |
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<buckeye-ELO@cox.net> wrote in message
news:71oda1dal0hvdnbi2jidc8p115jah7cc1g@4ax.com...
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? Article and rebuttal
This was sent us in email quite some time ago ( 8/16/2003 ). . It still is
relevant today.
***********************************************************************************
Published Friday
November 2, 2001
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American?
BY THOMAS MARTIN
The writer is a professor of Philosophy at the University of Nebraska at
Kearney
Jeremy Patrick, in his article, "Patriotism can exist without bows to God"
(Oct. 16 More Commentary), notes, "The problem with the use of religious
terminology by the government is not that atheists are offended (though we
are) or that we feel excluded (though that certainly occurs, too) but that
we understand better than most the dangers that occur when the government
becomes enmeshed with religion."
The question Mr. Patrick ought to be asking is not whether the government
has a right to use religious terminology but whether a citizen who
professes to be an atheist is an American.
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
The Declaration of Independence condemns atheism, as it names the Creator,
and not the government, as the ultimate authority from whom the citizens'
rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are derived.
The declaration of independence has no authority as a legal document since
it was not passed by the congress and ratified by the president. That's
because it was written before the constitution was adopted, and subsequently
never passed as a law. So I can be an atheist and a U.S. citizen and there's
nothing you can do about it. You can't have me arrested for it, or
prosecuted. if what you said was true, I would have no civil rights as U.S.
citizen. So it is plain that you are telling a fib.
In fact, Mr. Patrick will see as he reads the next line of the declaration
that the government of America was established to protect exactly these
rights bestowed upon man by his Creator.
Thus, if the government does not uphold our God-given rights as Americans,
it is our obligation to "alter or abolish" the government and institute
one that ensures our rights.
You and what army?
The necessity of forming ourselves under government and granting to our
governmental officials the power to enact laws for the public safety and
to
enforce them with the proper penalties arises from each person being in a
fallen state. If we were in the perfect state, such as the Garden of Eden
before the fall, we would not need to form a government.
You're too late, it's already been formed.
Given that God grants man his right to life, and the liberty to pursue
happiness, it is only by freely dedicating one's life to pursuing God's
will that man will ever attain the happiness for which he is meant.
(Could
a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian fail to understand this?)
Can you fail to understand that the Consitution doesn't require me to join
or promote a religion or dedicate my life to something you approve of? Yes,
you are obviously deranged.
Man as his Creator's creature is not an animal. What distinguishes man
from
the animals is that he is an individual with a soul, invested with moral
powers and faculties, by which he is able to discern the difference
between
right and wrong, truth and falsehood, good and evil.
Except in your case.
Conversely, an atheist holds man to be an animal and not a creature of God
- and therefore without a fixed nature and an immortal soul. When man is
believed to be an animal, his God-given ability to reason from and toward
the truth is reduced to only acting upon his appetites and rationalizing
his desires.
And, it's perfectly legal to do that.
By rejecting the source of his unalienable rights, an atheist denies the
source of his rights as an American. In fact, an atheist does not
recognize
individuals; instead, he will lump man in classes - for example,
proletariat and bourgeois.
Which is entirely legal to do.
Furthermore, as a materialist, he will not argue that a man is free to
claim responsibility for his actions. Man, like other animals, is the
product of his material conditions whose behaviors (reactions, not
actions) are caused by the chemical responses in the brain to some
oppressive force or stimulus of his environment.
And there's no law against it.
Having denied the rights bestowed upon man by his Creator, and with them
his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, Mr. Patrick
paradoxically thinks Americans ought to respect his lack of belief. He
wrote:
"I can respect, tolerate and even encourage private citizens to express
their religious beliefs, because I know that I have the exact same
opportunity to express my own (or lack thereof). But I cannot tolerate it
when some private citizens, even a majority of them, have hijacked the
government into endorsing their religious beliefs in a way that I can't
match."
By using the word "hijacked," doesn't Mr. Patrick, who professes
tolerance,
really display his intolerance for Christianity? Did our Founding Fathers
hijack government? Or did not they, using Mr. Patrick's implied metaphor,
try to develop a plane in which people of diverse races and beliefs might
fly - with, of course, certain unalienable rights?
You obviously missed your plane. Now you will have to hijack one.
Mr. Patrick is right to argue that the Constitution does not allow the
majority to impose its religious beliefs on the minority. However, he is
wrong to think that, while the Bill of Rights allows freedom of religion
and freedom of speech, an American would ever respect his freedom from
religion any more than his freedom from speech. To deny the first reduces
us to animals. To deny the second reduces us to slaves.
And so it goes.
Goes where?
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
08 Jun 2005 08:09:52 AM |
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In our last episode,
<71oda1dal0hvdnbi2jidc8p115jah7cc1g@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? Article and rebuttal
This was sent us in email quite some time ago ( 8/16/2003 ). . It still is
relevant today.
***********************************************************************************
Published Friday
November 2, 2001
Midlands Voices: Are atheists American?
BY THOMAS MARTIN
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence,
The Declaration of Independence is not now and never was law.
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
The Declaration of Independence condemns atheism, as it names the Creator,
and not the government, as the ultimate authority from whom the citizens'
rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are derived.
In fact, Mr. Patrick will see as he reads the next line of the declaration
that the government of America was established to protect exactly these
rights bestowed upon man by his Creator.
*****. The author (in the main) of the Declaration of
Independence and many of the signers were slave owners. Clearly
they did not believe that all men are created equal nor that
they are endowed with the right to liberty. We know they were
lying about that. It is therefore very possible they were lying
about a "Creator."
Given that God grants man his right to life, and the liberty to pursue
happiness,
But it is not "given." We know that parts of the declaration
were lies. We know that the author and many of the signers
believed that they were created equal with Africans and that
Africans did not have a God-given right to liberty. Therefore,
we cannot take anything in the document as a "given."
Conversely, an atheist holds man to be an animal and not a creature of God
- and therefore without a fixed nature and an immortal soul. When man is
believed to be an animal, his God-given ability to reason from and toward
the truth is reduced to only acting upon his appetites and rationalizing
his desires.
Libelous *****.
By using the word "hijacked," doesn't Mr. Patrick, who professes tolerance,
really display his intolerance for Christianity? Did our Founding Fathers
hijack government? Or did not they, using Mr. Patrick's implied metaphor,
try to develop a plane in which people of diverse races and beliefs might
fly - with, of course, certain unalienable rights?
No. They did not. They enslaved some peoples and carried on a
genocidal campaign to wipe out others. That they say one thing
in a formal document while there actions tell another story is,
of course, good evidence that they were christians. It is
christians who are intolerant as the present christofascist
attempt to use the mechanisms of government to further their
cult shows.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/
"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects,
I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them"
-- Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 12:46:12 AM |
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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
America is founded upon the three most powerful words ever fired as a
shot across the bow of history: "We The People", in the Constitution,
which takes pains to omit any mention of a deity except in noting the
year that it was written, and makes it clear that governmental
authority is derived from the consent of the governed, not ordained by
providence.
..
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 12:59:53 AM |
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 08:59:45 AM |
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"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
Typical *****-eater - PLONK (for the zillionith freakin' time!)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 09:54:55 AM |
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"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com...
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed.
Typo: should read 'America is a nation that is founded upon greed'...
Katt.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
11 Jun 2005 03:48:30 AM |
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Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
Ad hominem as a first resort: very revealing.
---
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 05:16:03 AM |
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Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence. He
addressed the Constitution but you clipped it. What does it say about
you when you don't read the post you are replying to?
B.T.W.
There is a new book about slavery and the creation of the Constitution.
It looks very good IMHO.
Dark Bargain
Slavery, Profits and the Struggle for the Constitution
Lawrence Goldstone
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 10:13:04 PM |
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"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118312163.782764.200350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence.
The quoted passage is clearly from the DOI.
Oh wait, you must be another leftist who is either clueless about the DOI,
or despises it.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
11 Jun 2005 04:00:15 AM |
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Dana wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118312163.782764.200350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence.
The quoted passage is clearly from the DOI.
Oh wait, you must be another leftist who is either clueless about the DOI,
or despises it.
One thing is obvious: all _opinions_ are not created equal.
Opinions presented as if fact with no supporting evidence
are especially worthless. It is amusing to watch the
argumentationally challenged spout their vacuous opinions
as if they believed they had some value.
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:44:34 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:13:04 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118312163.782764.200350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence.
The quoted passage is clearly from the DOI.
Oh wait, you must be another leftist who is either clueless about the DOI,
or despises it.
Or it could be that you're unable to parse a simple sentence for
comprehension.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Dana" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:38:57 PM |
|
|
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:u6oia1t9g0spqgna8ht4cu4vcclkahuqlu@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:13:04 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118312163.782764.200350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is
set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence.
The quoted passage is clearly from the DOI.
Oh wait, you must be another leftist who is either clueless about the
DOI,
or despises it.
Or it could be
YAWN
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 05:04:39 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:38:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:u6oia1t9g0spqgna8ht4cu4vcclkahuqlu@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:13:04 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118312163.782764.200350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Dana wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is
set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
Typical leftist.
He didn't say anything about the Declaration of Independence.
The quoted passage is clearly from the DOI.
Oh wait, you must be another leftist who is either clueless about the
DOI,
or despises it.
Or it could be
YAWN
"America is founded upon the
three most powerful words ever fired as a shot across the bow of
history: "We The People", in the Constitution, which takes pains to
omit any mention of a deity except in noting the year that it was
written, and makes it clear that governmental authority is derived
from the consent of the governed, not ordained by providence."
What say you?
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 01:39:04 AM |
|
|
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
The author and many of the signers of the document were slave
owners, and everyone who signed the document was obviously
willing to make common cause with slave holders. This is the
evidence that *no* *one* who signed the document really believed
that all men are created equal or that they are endowed by a
"Creator" with an inalienable right to liberty. It was a
fiction, first and last.
Typical leftist.
Yup. Informed.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/
I do not want the peace which passeth understanding,
I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
- Helen Keller
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 02:24:59 AM |
|
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"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and free.
.
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 02:25:30 AM |
|
|
In article <11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and free.
It is the American right that is currently shitting on the Bill of
Rights.
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 10:08:30 PM |
|
|
"Virgil" <ITSnetNOTcom#virgil@COMCAST.com> wrote in message
news:ITSnetNOTcom%23virgil-8C4FB0.01253009062005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and
free.
It is the American right that is currently shitting on the Bill of
Rights.
WRONG as usual.
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:44:57 AM |
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On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:08:30 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Virgil" <ITSnetNOTcom#virgil@COMCAST.com> wrote in message
news:ITSnetNOTcom%23virgil-8C4FB0.01253009062005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
In article <11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and
free.
It is the American right that is currently shitting on the Bill of
Rights.
WRONG as usual.
Specify.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Dana" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:39:22 PM |
|
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:g8oia157r5n9dekljb0f8tjfe6c9f70ja5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:08:30 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Virgil" <ITSnetNOTcom#virgil@COMCAST.com> wrote in message
news:ITSnetNOTcom%23virgil-8C4FB0.01253009062005@comcast.dca.giganews.com..
..
In article <11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The
American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and
free.
It is the American right that is currently shitting on the Bill of
Rights.
WRONG as usual.
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 12:02:42 PM |
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On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:25:30 -0500, Virgil wrote:
In article <11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish. The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and free.
It is the American right that is currently shitting on the Bill of
Rights.
Yeah, well, look at the crap that the "Liberals" are trying
to push to destroy this wonderful country:
The right of the people to be secure
in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue,
but upon probable cause, supported
by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched,
and the persons or things to be seized.
If these "Liberals" aren't stopped now, it is no telling
where it will end up. Stop them now before they start
trying to covertly slip in those subversive freedoms such
as press, speech, religion and assembly.
Stop Liberalism and Freedom now before these
individualistic fanatics start trying to subvert The
PATRIOT Act before your home can be searched secretly and
your books and phone bills and what books you check-out at
the library and that dirty _Playboy_ and a copy of your
hard drive made.
Since you are a Republican and an "Ultra-Federalist" and
believe in repealing the Bill of Rights as well as, heck,
the whole Constitution, we all realize that you will be a
"True American" for you to welcome a search without a
warrant to prove that you're a "Good American".
Remember that "Liberals" don't think your preacher should
be in charge of the government and that they shouldn't have
to support your preachers and pastors and Klan chaplains.
These "Liberals" do not agree that known communists such as
Associate Justice Antonin Scalia must be replaced with
"right-thinking men" (just men) such as the Godly, Ethical
and Sin-hating former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of
Alabama, Roy S Moore, who was fired only because there were
communists running rampart in Alabama saying that
laws should be obeyed.
Some of these subversive left-wingers don't even believe
that wealthy and/or powerful people should have more rights
than the riff-raff and that it's not okay for powerful
and/or wealthy people to break laws if these laws are
inconvenient.
Stop these horrid "Liberals" now or, the next thing you
know, they'll be slipping your children copies of the
Constitution and your children will be subverted and end up
being traitors to Iraq.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Calvin: These are interesting times.
We don't trust the government,
We don't trust the legal system,
We don't trust the media,
and we don't trust each other!
We've undermined all authority,
and with it, the basis for replacing it!
Hobbes: "Interesting" is a mild way of putting it.
Calvin: It's like a six-year-old's dream come true.
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 04:22:29 PM |
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On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:24:59 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
That's not what I said, you illiterate moron. I said that your
assertion that the US was founded on a creed set forth in the DOI was
rubbish.
The American
left is dead set against the ideal of all men being created equal and free.
You're clearly projecting.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Dana" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 10:11:52 PM |
|
|
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:dkcha15bpsr7a2cfe34c4jltd4c1nu7rgp@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:24:59 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
That's not what I said
Yes it is.
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
That is what you posted.
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:34:39 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:11:52 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:dkcha15bpsr7a2cfe34c4jltd4c1nu7rgp@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:24:59 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
That's not what I said
Yes it is.
Blatantly lying does not aid your cause. I said that your claim was
rubbish, not the DOI.
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
That is what you posted.
Continuing to blatantly lie still does not aid your cause.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:35:28 PM |
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"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:ugnia1hogvc2628ged56llcsket1gqnuj4@4ax.com...
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:11:52 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:dkcha15bpsr7a2cfe34c4jltd4c1nu7rgp@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:24:59 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That creed is
set
forth
with dogmatic and theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence,
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are
created
equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights;
that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
That's not what I said
Yes it is.
Blatantly lying
The only one who is lying is you.
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
That is what you posted.
Continuing to blatantly lie
Are you now trying to say you did not post the above, to a reply that quoted
the DOI.
.
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| User: "raven1" |
|
| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 05:03:28 PM |
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:35:28 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
That is what you posted.
Continuing to blatantly lie
Are you now trying to say you did not post the above, to a reply that quoted
the DOI.
I certainly did post the above. It referred to *your claim about the
DOI*, not the quote itself, you dishonest, illiterate fuckwad. Of
course, now you'll no doubt quote my first six words and claim
victory, while snipping the rest. And you wonder why liberals scream
about right-wingers being dishonest.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 05:40:22 PM |
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In article <5h3ka1dhnjfnap7r5bc94ikgha9c6kkfpo@4ax.com> raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> writes:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:35:28 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
That is what you posted.
Continuing to blatantly lie
Are you now trying to say you did not post the above, to a reply that quoted
the DOI.
I certainly did post the above. It referred to *your claim about the
DOI*, not the quote itself, you dishonest, illiterate fuckwad. Of
course, now you'll no doubt quote my first six words and claim
victory, while snipping the rest. And you wonder why liberals scream
about right-wingers being dishonest.
Well now, that's not really fair. Dana's dishonesty isn't really
so typical of the conservatives as it is typical of the schoolyard
and the playground.
-- cary
.
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 02:39:48 AM |
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["Followup-To:" header set to alt.atheism.]
In our last episode,
<11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
the lovely and talented Dana
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Lars Eighner" < > wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That
creed is set forth with dogmatic and theological lucidity
in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths
to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal; that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty,
and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
The American left is dead set against the ideal of all men
being created equal and free.
*****. The slave holders and slave holders' friends who
authored and signed the Declaration of Independence obviously
did not believe that men were created equal or with a right to
liberty. George III is long dead. The British Crown no longer
asserts any claim to any of the United States. The Declaration
of Independence served its purpose, which was to further the
independence of the American states. It was not law when it was
signed; it has never been law since.
The signers of the Declaration obviously did not believe in
equality or liberty. They were lying. They kept slaves and
they made common cause with people who kept slaves. The
Declaration of Independence did not make men free or equal
before the law. The War of Independence did not make men free
or equal before the law. That struggle continues unto the
present day and it was not over and done with when Cornwallis
gave up his sword.
--
Lars Eighner http://www.larseighner.com/
"With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects,
I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them"
-- Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 10:10:24 PM |
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"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafsfn.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.atheism.]
In our last episode,
<11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
the lovely and talented Dana
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That
creed is set forth with dogmatic and theological lucidity
in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths
to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal; that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty,
and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
The American left is dead set against the ideal of all men
being created equal and free.
*****.
Now you are changing your position.
Face it the American left has never held the belief that all are created
equal and free.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
10 Jun 2005 04:43:47 AM |
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On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:10:24 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
The American left is dead set against the ideal of all men
being created equal and free.
*****.
Now you are changing your position.
Outright lie. Citation or retraction. Or are you too stupid to read
headers properly, and attributing quotes from others to me?
Face it the American left has never held the belief that all are created
equal and free.
Another lie. Citation or retraction.
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Midlands Voices: Are atheists American? |
09 Jun 2005 10:17:13 AM |
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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 02:39:48 -0500, Lars Eighner <eighner@io.com>
wrote:
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.atheism.]
In our last episode,
<11afrj31aguk7f7@corp.supernews.com>,
the lovely and talented Dana
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrndafotr.ff0.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode, <11afmjia7ank9c@corp.supernews.com>, the
lovely and talented Dana broadcast on alt.atheism:
"raven1" <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
news:tllfa1paokm39u1r7567t6vfnbotuljihs@4ax.com...
On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:12:27 -0400, wrote:
America is a nation that is founded upon a creed. That
creed is set forth with dogmatic and theological lucidity
in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these Truths
to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal; that
they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty,
and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Bollocks.
Balderdash.
Complete and utter rubbish.
So you have never read the Declaration of Independence.
It is of course necessary to read to know what complete and
thoroughgoing rubbish it was.
Of course the American left would think the DOI is rubbish.
The American left is dead set against the ideal of all men
being created equal and free.
*****. The slave holders and slave holders' friends who
authored and signed the Declaration of Independence obviously
did not believe that men were created equal or with a right to
liberty.
Actually, those founding fathers DID believe all *MEN* were created
equal, but, of course, they defined "men" as white males, so all women
and slaves and indians weren't included....
George III is long dead. The British Crown no longer
asserts any claim to any of the United States. The Declaration
of Independence served its purpose, which was to further the
independence of the American states. It was not law when it was
signed; it has never been law since.
Exactly.
The signers of the Declaration obviously did not believe in
equality or liberty. They were lying.
I don't think they LIED, per se, I think they just had a differenet
definition of what "men" meant.
They kept slaves and
they made common cause with people who kept slaves.
But they debated if slaves were even human... they decided that they
were 2/3 of a real person for a while.
The
Declaration of Independence did not make men free or equal
before the law. The War of Independence did not make men free
or equal before the law. That struggle continues unto the
present day and it was not over and done with when Cornwallis
gave up his sword.
Isn't it disheartening? It would be so easy to consider ALL PEOPLE
equal under the law, but there are always those opposed to it...
today it's gay men and woman, in the 60's it was blacks, in the 40's
it was Japanese Americans, in the 20's in was Women's Sufferage...
Pitiful... pitiful and disheartening.
James, Seattle
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