Mitt the Mormon’s twisted idea of freedom



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "buckeye"
Date: 11 Dec 2007 07:06:17 AM
Object: Mitt the Mormon’s twisted idea of freedom
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/andrew_sullivan/article3021127.ece?openComment=true
Mitt the Mormon’s twisted idea of freedom
Andrew Sullivan
In Mitt Romney’s carefully choreographed, partly self-financed and
meticulously planned campaign for president, last week’s speech was
premature. He always intended to give a speech at some point, addressing
the fact of a Mormon running for president. But he assumed he’d give that
speech after his nomination by the Republicans, pitching a general and
uplifting message to all Americans about the need for religious liberty and
pluralism.
The only reason he gave the speech last week is that he felt he had no
choice. In Iowa, a critical state for his momentum-based candidacy, he was
slipping into second place. The insurgent, Baptist minister Mike Huckabee,
was subtly appealing to the overwhelmingly fundamentalist Christian voters
of the Republican base. Hucka-bee ran a disgraceful ad touting himself as a
“Christian leader”, “defined” by his faith. And the pool of votes Romney
had been banking on began to shift rapidly away from him.
And so the speech itself, entitled Faith in America, had to be a little
different. It was not in the end a call to American pluralism. It was a
rallying cry to all believers to wrestle the public culture of the United
States away from nonbelievers. It was a pitch designed to say that whatever
doctrinal differences Mormons have with mainstream Christians, they are
trivial compared with the war against secularism.
So we were told, rather baldly: “Freedom requires religion just as religion
requires freedom . . . Freedom and religion endure together or perish
alone.” Of course freedom and religion can go together. But freedom
requires religion? There are many free, secular societies where this
doesn’t seem an exhaustive explanation. And while freedom of conscience can
indeed be defended by religious doctrine – just read your John Locke or
Second Vatican Council – it has also in history been persecuted and
repressed by religion. Why were Locke and the second council even
necessary?
And then you noticed that Romney’s embrace of pluralism does not actually
include atheists or agnostics or those with no faith at all. This was not a
minor oversight. In fact those who want to preserve a secular hue to public
debates were given no quarter: “It is as if they are intent on establishing
a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.”
Romney, moreover, explicitly stated a core religious doctrine of his:
“There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I
believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God
and the saviour of mankind.” If his point were to say that it is irrelevant
what your religion is when you run for president, merely that you have a
religion, then why this explicit statement? It tells his audience that he
is not a Jew or a Muslim.
In his famous 1960 speech to the Houston ministers, John F Kennedy issued
no such theological credo. And the explanation for Romney’s doing so is
pretty simple: he wants the political benefit of being a Christian without
the political cost of being a Mormon “Christian”. The speech was therefore
a purely political manoeuvre, as is almost everything that comes out of
Romney’s mouth. In order for a Mormon to win over the Christian right, he
has to unite with them against a common foe: the religion of secularism.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "Geoff"

Title: Re: Mitt the Mormon's twisted idea of freedom 11 Dec 2007 08:08:20 AM
buckeye wrote:

Hucka-bee ran
a disgraceful ad touting himself as a "Christian leader", "defined"
by his faith.

I was listening to NPR yesterday and they interviewed a woman in Iowa and
she said she was voting for *Huckleberry*. LOL
Oh m'darlin', o m'darlin', o m'daaaaarrrlin' Clementiiiiiine!


And so the speech itself, entitled Faith in America, had to be a
little different. It was not in the end a call to American pluralism.
It was a rallying cry to all believers to wrestle the public culture
of the United States away from nonbelievers. It was a pitch designed
to say that whatever doctrinal differences Mormons have with
mainstream Christians, they are trivial compared with the war against
secularism.

So we were told, rather baldly: "Freedom requires religion just as
religion requires freedom . . . Freedom and religion endure together
or perish alone." Of course freedom and religion can go together. But
freedom requires religion? There are many free, secular societies
where this doesn't seem an exhaustive explanation. And while freedom
of conscience can indeed be defended by religious doctrine - just
read your John Locke or Second Vatican Council - it has also in
history been persecuted and repressed by religion. Why were Locke and
the second council even necessary?

And then you noticed that Romney's embrace of pluralism does not
actually include atheists or agnostics or those with no faith at all.
This was not a minor oversight. In fact those who want to preserve a
secular hue to public debates were given no quarter: "It is as if
they are intent on establishing a new religion in America - the
religion of secularism. They are wrong."

Romney, moreover, explicitly stated a core religious doctrine of his:
"There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What
do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the
son of God and the saviour of mankind." If his point were to say that
it is irrelevant what your religion is when you run for president,
merely that you have a religion, then why this explicit statement? It
tells his audience that he is not a Jew or a Muslim.

In his famous 1960 speech to the Houston ministers, John F Kennedy
issued no such theological credo. And the explanation for Romney's
doing so is pretty simple: he wants the political benefit of being a
Christian without the political cost of being a Mormon "Christian".
The speech was therefore a purely political manoeuvre, as is almost
everything that comes out of Romney's mouth. In order for a Mormon to
win over the Christian right, he has to unite with them against a
common foe: the religion of secularism.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or
Separation of Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no
law respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic
reasoning. Words take their meaning from social as well as textual
contexts, which is why "a page of history is worth a volume of
logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct.
506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.). Sherman v. Community
Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992) . . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

--
Geoff O'Furman
Head Coach, Varsity Hockey
University of Ediacara
AA #22??
.


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