| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Matt" |
| Date: |
14 Jan 2008 11:31:09 PM |
| Object: |
Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
On Jan 15, 3:31 pm, Kangarooistan <kangarooistan@gmail.com> wrote:
Let us examine the Holy record of the Prophet Mohammed and his darling
bride, Aisha (Peace Be Upon Them Both):
SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Number 88: Narrated 'Ursa: Mohammed (p.b.u.h.)
The Prophet (when He was 53 years old) wrote the marriage contract with
'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her
while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years
(i.e. till his death).
Now, you may be wondering "Why did Mohammed marry Aisha when she was
only 6 and then wait until she was 9 to have sexual intercourse?" - Lets
go to the wisdom of the Shi'a Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini defined the
following limits and consequences for adult sexual activity with
children (roughly translated from Arabic):
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl
is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from
having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual
acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having
intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed
a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged.
If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for
her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four
permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children
Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom
An English translation of this wonderful work can be purchased on
Amazon.com:
Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Philosophic, Social and
Religious with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-
553-14032-9
http://www.amazon.com/Sayings-Ayatollah-Khomeini-Political-
Philosophical/dp/0553140329/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200375019
&sr=8-9
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
15 Jan 2008 01:37:16 AM |
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"Matt" <mattbaylor@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A25E52432249mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131...
On Jan 15, 3:31 pm, Kangarooistan <kangarooistan@gmail.com> wrote:
Let us examine the Holy record of the Prophet Mohammed and his darling
bride, Aisha (Peace Be Upon Them Both):
SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 7, Number 88: Narrated 'Ursa: Mohammed (p.b.u.h.)
The Prophet (when He was 53 years old) wrote the marriage contract with
'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her
while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years
(i.e. till his death).
Now, you may be wondering "Why did Mohammed marry Aisha when she was
only 6 and then wait until she was 9 to have sexual intercourse?" - Lets
go to the wisdom of the Shi'a Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini defined the
following limits and consequences for adult sexual activity with
children (roughly translated from Arabic):
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl
is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from
having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual
acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having
intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed
a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged.
If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for
her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four
permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
That is totally disgusting. What a sick religion.
Any woman who willingly converts to it should
have her head examined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children
Ayatollah Khomeini in Tahrirolvasyleh, Fourth Edition, Darol Elm, Qom
An English translation of this wonderful work can be purchased on
Amazon.com:
Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Philosophic, Social and
Religious with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-
553-14032-9
http://www.amazon.com/Sayings-Ayatollah-Khomeini-Political-
Philosophical/dp/0553140329/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200375019
&sr=8-9
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
15 Jan 2008 12:17:06 AM |
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In article <Xns9A25E52432249mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl
is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from
having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual
acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having
intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed
a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged.
If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for
her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four
permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but they
usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was not
until centuries later that the Christians in western countries put a
lower age limit on sexual intercourse.
A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes of the
criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as 1275. It was
originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in 1885.
In the 1930s marriage was brought into the secular domain in Iran and
1935 a minimum age was set at 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
After the 1979 revolution deposing the Shah and the subsequent war with
Iraq, Sharia Law was used as the basis for minimum age of marriage.
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage for
girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the approval
of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively watered down a
reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made the minimum age for
marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
All sexual activity outside marriage is illegal in Iran with penalties
up to and including death for transgressors.
Here in secular (or Christian according to some) Australia, the legal
minimum age for marriage is 18 years. However, with court approval in
exceptional circumstances, a marriage may take place if *one* of the
parties has attained 16 years.
This is comparable with the current situation in Islamic Republic Iran,
where a boy over the age of 15 can marry a younger girl with court
approval.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
15 Jan 2008 05:29:14 PM |
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"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl
is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from
having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual
acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having
intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed
a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged.
If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for
her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four
permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but they
usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was not
until centuries later that the Christians in western countries put a
lower age limit on sexual intercourse.
What is neo-Nazi about it Moss?
He is quoting what Sunni Islam endorses.
And since you mention Christianity - where does their holy books _APPROVE_
of sexual intercourse at 9?
A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes of the
criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as 1275. It was
originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in 1885.
In the 1930s marriage was brought into the secular domain in Iran and
1935 a minimum age was set at 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes once puberty has kicked in, there is less of a problem. The body is
ready.
But it is still case that the child is not emotionally mature nor finished
their growing.
Hence Western countries higher age limits.
After the 1979 revolution deposing the Shah and the subsequent war with
Iraq, Sharia Law was used as the basis for minimum age of marriage.
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage for
girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the approval
of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively watered down a
reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made the minimum age for
marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because that
follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
15 Jan 2008 11:16:40 PM |
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"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A
man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age
has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is
not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently
damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl
will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is
not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but they
usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was
not until centuries later that the Christians in western countries
put a lower age limit on sexual intercourse.
What is neo-Nazi about it Moss?
He is quoting what Sunni Islam endorses.
And since you mention Christianity - where does their holy books
_APPROVE_ of sexual intercourse at 9?
A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes of
the criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as 1275.
It was originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in 1885.
In the 1930s marriage was brought into the secular domain in Iran and
1935 a minimum age was set at 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes once puberty has kicked in, there is less of a problem. The body
is ready.
But it is still case that the child is not emotionally mature nor
finished their growing.
Hence Western countries higher age limits.
After the 1979 revolution deposing the Shah and the subsequent war
with Iraq, Sharia Law was used as the basis for minimum age of
marriage.
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage for
girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because that
follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can marry
an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with her till
she's 9. See the original post.
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 05:34:27 AM |
|
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In article <Xns9A26E2B5472C0mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can marry
an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with her till
she's 9. See the original post.
Pretty much the same situation here in Australia in theory.
A court here can allow marriage for someone below the age of 18 as long
as one of the parties to the marriage is over the age of 16. Strange but
true.
BTW Matt, the age of consent in Italy is 14, but I don't see you ranting
about the evil Catholics and their paedophile ways.
Here's another reference for you:
"Age of Consent throughout history has usually coincided with the age of
puberty although at sometimes it has been as early as seven. Early on
age of consent was a familial or tribal matter and only became a legal
one in the Greco-Roman period. The Roman tradition served as the base
for Christian Europe as well as the Christian Church itself which
generally, essentially based upon biological development, set it at 12
or 14 but continued to set the absolute minimum at seven."
(2005 Bullough, VL, 'Age of Consent A Historical Overview' in Journal of
Psychology & Human Sexuality, Vol. 16, Issue: 2/3, pp. 25-42)
Seven as an absolute minimum? Mohammed would have been shocked! He
waited an extra two years before consummating his marriage with Aisha. I
wonder if he would have spammed USENET with this interesting fact in an
attempt to foment hatred against Catholics?
You Christians really ought to consider the consequences before tossing
stones from within your own glasshouse.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "B J Foster" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 06:29:52 AM |
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Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A
man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age
has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is
not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently
damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl
will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is
not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but they
usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was
not until centuries later that the Christians in western countries
put a lower age limit on sexual intercourse.
What is neo-Nazi about it Moss?
He is quoting what Sunni Islam endorses.
No he isn't - Khomeini is Shi'a.
And since you mention Christianity - where does their holy books
_APPROVE_ of sexual intercourse at 9?
A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes of
the criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as 1275.
It was originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in 1885.
In the 1930s marriage was brought into the secular domain in Iran and
1935 a minimum age was set at 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes once puberty has kicked in, there is less of a problem. The body
is ready.
But it is still case that the child is not emotionally mature nor
finished their growing.
Hence Western countries higher age limits.
After the 1979 revolution deposing the Shah and the subsequent war
with Iraq, Sharia Law was used as the basis for minimum age of
marriage.
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage for
girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because that
follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can marry
an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with her till
she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of fitness
for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl
is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from
having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual
acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 09:57:06 AM |
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B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:478df8e6$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if
the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is
prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine,
while other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are
allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine
years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if
the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is
permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life.
But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent
wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."
We often see this sort of thing from neo-Nazi propagandists, but
they usually fail to mention that when the Koran was written
girls even younger than nine were fair game for Christians. It was
not until centuries later that the Christians in western countries
put a lower age limit on sexual intercourse.
What is neo-Nazi about it Moss?
He is quoting what Sunni Islam endorses.
No he isn't - Khomeini is Shi'a.
And since you mention Christianity - where does their holy books
_APPROVE_ of sexual intercourse at 9?
A statutory age of consent to sexual intercourse for the purposes
of the criminal law in the United Kingdom can be found as early as
1275. It was originally 12, was raised to 13 in 1875 and to 16 in
1885.
In the 1930s marriage was brought into the secular domain in Iran
and 1935 a minimum age was set at 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes once puberty has kicked in, there is less of a problem. The body
is ready.
But it is still case that the child is not emotionally mature nor
finished their growing.
Hence Western countries higher age limits.
After the 1979 revolution deposing the Shah and the subsequent war
with Iraq, Sharia Law was used as the basis for minimum age of
marriage.
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage
for girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because
that follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can
marry an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with
her till she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of
fitness for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
Because I was criticizing Khomeini.. I've written other articles on
Sunni Islam (ie the Wahabi's (Saudi Arabia) and the Taliban,
(Afghanistan). Its not any better.
Shia and Sunni Islam are seperate. If I write an article critical of
Catholics, must I also include the Protestant, Evangelical, Mormon,
Jehova's Witness, and Moonies view?
.
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| User: "B J Foster" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 04:01:44 PM |
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Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:478df8e6$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
....
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage
for girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because
that follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can
marry an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with
her till she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of
fitness for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
Because I was criticizing Khomeini.. I've written other articles on
Sunni Islam (ie the Wahabi's (Saudi Arabia) and the Taliban,
(Afghanistan). Its not any better.
Shia and Sunni Islam are seperate. If I write an article critical of
Catholics, must I also include the Protestant, Evangelical, Mormon,
Jehova's Witness, and Moonies view?
Garbage.
Subject: "Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story"
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 04:57:35 PM |
|
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B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in news:478e7ef1$0$24086$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:478df8e6$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
...
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage
for girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without
the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have
made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because
that follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can
marry an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with
her till she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not
be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of
fitness for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
Because I was criticizing Khomeini.. I've written other articles on
Sunni Islam (ie the Wahabi's (Saudi Arabia) and the Taliban,
(Afghanistan). Its not any better.
Shia and Sunni Islam are seperate. If I write an article critical of
Catholics, must I also include the Protestant, Evangelical, Mormon,
Jehova's Witness, and Moonies view?
Garbage.
Subject: "Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story"
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not completely.
The fact of the matter is that Aisha was Mohammeds favorite wife, and
she is to Mulsims what the "Mother Mary" is to Christians, she's highly
revered, and Mohammeds relationship with her, and her with him, is
looked at as the "perfect example" of Muslim marriage by both Shia and
Sunni. Here are a few references:
http://www.wiu.edu/users/mfgp/Islam/Aisha.html
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjWqRTBRzQ
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 09:32:52 PM |
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In article <Xns9A27A25AABAEEmattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not completely.
Backpedalling furiously, Matt now claims his subject line is "mostly
satire". Nice try Matt, but I don't think anyone believes you.
You have been done like a dinner.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 10:10:42 PM |
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David Moss <q0320811@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in
news:MPG.21f96957ab53911698afcf@news.bigpond.com:
In article <Xns9A27A25AABAEEmattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not completely.
Backpedalling furiously, Matt now claims his subject line is "mostly
satire". Nice try Matt, but I don't think anyone believes you.
You have been done like a dinner.
I think anyone with half a brain can see that I do not believe that
Mohammed and Aisha were the perfect couple... On the contrary, my post is
clearly intended to show how vile a man Mohammed was, and how vile a
religion Islam is...
Looks like you lack the ability to uderstand what satire is or to reason,
Were you born that way or did you damage your brain with drugs?
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
16 Jan 2008 11:11:02 PM |
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In article <Xns9A27D772B1C0mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
I think anyone with half a brain can see that I do not believe that
Mohammed and Aisha were the perfect couple... On the contrary, my post is
clearly intended to show how vile a man Mohammed was, and how vile a
religion Islam is...
Oh I realise the purpose of your article was to foment hatred against
Islam. The question remaining concerns your motive.
Many propagandists are motivated by ethnophobia. They fear and loath
anyone who is different from what they consider to be ideal. This often
includes themselves and any personal attributes they consider fall short
of perfection.
Ethnophobia is defined as either irrational fear and hatred of one's own
nation or (strangely opposite), hatred of any race or ethnicity
different to one's own.
The most extreme form of this is found among neo-Nazis and other far-
right nationalist and religious fanatics. These poor souls sometimes
discover USENET and make it their mission to SPAM in every snippet of
information that casts their targets in a bad light.
Because their position is based on irrational fear they are often
irrational in their response to criticism. The often resort to abuse,
attacking their adversaries using ad-homenium rather than addressing the
detail of the arguments.
Often their psychology can be described using the Right Wing
Authoritarian Follower model. The RWAF is characterised by
compartmentalised thinking. A RWAF can simultaneously criticise an
opponent for a characteristic, despite the fact their own preferred
authority exhibits the same characteristic or worse.
Pointing this out to a RWAF results in cognitive dissonance which they
generally deal with through vehement personal attack.
Now there always remains a possibility that someone who compulsively
spams vilification material across multiple newsgroups is not motivated
as described above.
There is always a first time for everything.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 12:27:30 PM |
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Oh I realise the purpose of your article was to foment hatred against
Islam. The question remaining concerns your motive.
We dont have to foment hatred against Islam.
It is enough to research what its attitude is to non-Muslims.
And it is enough to check previous history.
Islam has had a record of oppressing Europe for as long as 1300 years.
Many propagandists are motivated by ethnophobia. They fear and loath
anyone who is different from what they consider to be ideal. This often
includes themselves and any personal attributes they consider fall short
of perfection.
Not here.
Arab atheist is fine. Arab Christian is fine. Arab secularist is fine, in
fact Arab anything except Muslim is fine.
I have no problem with any race just as long as they are not a Muslim.
Same with Germans, I have no problem with them as long as they are not
wedded to Nazi idealogy.
It is the ideology of Islam that is not fine. Because like Communism and
National Socialism, it is totalitarian.
You have check the hadiths have you not?
Ethnophobia is defined as...
[Snip] I agree with that. But then you falsely apply it to Islam.
Remarkable how many people falsely consider Muslims a race or an ethnic
group. I dont. Islam is an ideology.
John Smith
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 06:47:43 PM |
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In article <npidnU2kj8IOcg3anZ2dnUVZ8uadnZ2d@pipex.net>,
JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com writes...
Ethnophobia is defined as...
.... either irrational fear and hatred of one's own
nation or (strangely opposite), hatred of any race or ethnicity
different to one's own.
[Snip] I agree with that. But then you falsely apply it to Islam.
Remarkable how many people falsely consider Muslims a race or an ethnic
group. I dont. Islam is an ideology.
"1. (3) cultural, ethnic, ethnical -- (denoting or deriving from or
distinctive of the ways of living built up by a group of people"
(Wordnet)
Islam is a way of living.
"1. Islam, Muslimism -- (the civilization of Muslims collectively which
is governed by the Muslim religion; "Islam is predominant in northern
Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Indonesia")
2. Islam, Islamism, Mohammedanism, Muhammadanism, Muslimism -- (the
monotheistic religious system of Muslims founded in Arabia in the 7th
century and based on the teachings of Muhammad as laid down in the
Koran; "Islam is a complete way of life, not a Sunday religion"; "the
term Muhammadanism is offensive to Muslims who believe that Allah, not
Muhammad, founded their religion")"
(Wordnet)
A non-Muslim ethnophobe would hate Muslims because they have a different
way of life.
My theory is that many propagandists are motivated by the fact their own
way of life differs from their perceived ideal, and that they
externalise their self loathing in an attempt to reduce cognitive
dissonance.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "Mavisbeacon" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
19 Jan 2008 08:07:58 AM |
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arabic,uk.religion.islam,aus.religion.islam,aus.politics, cut
"David Moss" <q0320811@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.21fbe5a3e9fc74c198aff0@news.bigpond.com...
In article <npidnU2kj8IOcg3anZ2dnUVZ8uadnZ2d@pipex.net>,
JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com writes...
[snip]
A non-Muslim ethnophobe would hate Muslims because they have a different
way of life.
My theory is that many propagandists are motivated by the fact their own
way of life differs from their perceived ideal, and that they
externalise their self loathing in an attempt to reduce cognitive
dissonance.
I don't hate Muslims and indeed have Muslim friends. We are here discussing
scriptures which depict Mohammad in his fifties as having sex with a nine
year old. Whether or not people contribute because they hate Muslims or not
is beside the point and I suggest such accusation is ad hominem.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
17 Jan 2008 01:22:17 AM |
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David Moss <q0320811@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in
news:MPG.21f98058e696b35c98afd1@news.bigpond.com:
In article <Xns9A27D772B1C0mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
I think anyone with half a brain can see that I do not believe that
Mohammed and Aisha were the perfect couple... On the contrary, my
post is clearly intended to show how vile a man Mohammed was, and how
vile a religion Islam is...
Oh I realise the purpose of your article was to foment hatred against
Islam. The question remaining concerns your motive.
What is your motive in being an apologist for Islam? I've been doing
what I do for years, but it was not until I focused on Mohammeds
relationship with Aisha juxtaposed with the modern teaching of Khomeini
advocating the molestatoin of infants and toddlers that you suddenly
took issue... Could it be that my post hit on a nerve? Have you been
didling your students? (Ya know, stuff like that has been known to come
back and haunt a man... these kids grow up and remember...)
Many propagandists are motivated by ethnophobia. They fear and loath
anyone who is different from what they consider to be ideal. This
often includes themselves and any personal attributes they consider
fall short of perfection.
I would think that most "normal" people would loath any religious
teaching that advocated the molestation of children... again, me thinks
you are not normal...
Ethnophobia is defined as either irrational fear and hatred of one's
own nation or (strangely opposite), hatred of any race or ethnicity
different to one's own.
My posts are archived on google, do you see any that express hatred of
any race or ethnicity? (I do in fact hate Islam, I also hate any
teaching that advocates child molestation). I also hate murder, rape and
oysters.. (they make me gag).
The most extreme form of this is found among neo-Nazis and other far-
right nationalist and religious fanatics. These poor souls sometimes
discover USENET and make it their mission to SPAM in every snippet of
information that casts their targets in a bad light.
With regards to Islam, what good is there? Lets see, it inspires
terrorism, misogyny, pedophelia, ignorance and barbarism.. I can't think
of any thing good about Islam...
Because their position is based on irrational fear they are often
irrational in their response to criticism. The often resort to abuse,
attacking their adversaries using ad-homenium rather than addressing
the detail of the arguments.
Oh - lets see, ad-hom, you mean like calling me a neo-nazi biggot rather
than addressing the substance of my posts? Habitually posting the same
old arguments over and over again and ignoring rebuttals?
Often their psychology can be described using the Right Wing
Authoritarian Follower model. The RWAF is characterised by
compartmentalised thinking. A RWAF can simultaneously criticise an
opponent for a characteristic, despite the fact their own preferred
authority exhibits the same characteristic or worse.
You seem to be describing yoursele perfectly!
Pointing this out to a RWAF results in cognitive dissonance which they
generally deal with through vehement personal attack.
Now there always remains a possibility that someone who compulsively
spams vilification material across multiple newsgroups is not
motivated as described above.
There is always a first time for everything.
I'm still waiting for you to show me where Chistianity teaches
pedophelia... You've made three for four absolutly lame attempts and
then fail to respond when I post the facts and point out your errors.
I'm still waiting...
.
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| User: "Addinall" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
17 Jan 2008 02:36:53 AM |
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On Jan 17, 1:32=A0pm, David Moss <q0320...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au>
wrote:
In article <Xns9A27A25AABAEEmattbaylorgmail...@216.196.97.131>,
mattbay...@gmail.com writes...
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not completely.
Backpedalling furiously, Matt now claims his subject line is "mostly
satire". Nice try Matt, but I don't think anyone believes you.
You have been done like a dinner.
Yes, far too lightweight for me to give an "assist".
You have his scalp.
Cheerio,
Marky.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resourcehttp://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "B J Foster" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
17 Jan 2008 06:02:46 AM |
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Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in news:478e7ef1$0$24086$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:478df8e6$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
...
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting marriage
for girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without
the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have
made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 - because
that follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man can
marry an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE with
her till she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not
be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of
fitness for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
Because I was criticizing Khomeini.. I've written other articles on
Sunni Islam (ie the Wahabi's (Saudi Arabia) and the Taliban,
(Afghanistan). Its not any better.
Shia and Sunni Islam are seperate. If I write an article critical of
Catholics, must I also include the Protestant, Evangelical, Mormon,
Jehova's Witness, and Moonies view?
Garbage.
Subject: "Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story"
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not completely.
Garbage. WTF does that mean? A bit each way, eh.
The fact of the matter is that Aisha was Mohammeds favorite wife, and
she is to Mulsims what the "Mother Mary" is to Christians, she's highly
revered, and Mohammeds relationship with her, and her with him, is
looked at as the "perfect example" of Muslim marriage by both Shia and
Sunni. Here are a few references:
http://www.wiu.edu/users/mfgp/Islam/Aisha.html
"Aisha was just a girl at the time so he waited to consummate his
marriage with her when she reached puberty"
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
This one presents a strong argument that Aisha was 19 years old at the
time of consumation. Did you read it? Or just the juicy bits? Oh, BTW it
also says that Joseph at 90 married Mary at 12.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjWqRTBRzQ
.
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 12:36:32 PM |
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http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
This one presents a strong argument that Aisha was 19 years old at the
time of consumation. Did you read it? Or just the juicy bits?
What is strong about it? It is an argument. It can fall on any of the points
in the chain of reasoning.
In contrast Bukhari's hadiths are black-and-white. It _JUST_ states it.
And in fact I can find it in Sahih Muslim's collection and Sunnan Abu Dawud.
Those are the 2nd part of what Sunni Muslims regard as their holy books.
Oh, BTW it also says that Joseph at 90 married Mary at 12.
Right. And where does the source of this information come from?
John Smith
.
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| User: "B J Foster" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 03:49:38 PM |
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John Smith wrote:
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
This one presents a strong argument that Aisha was 19 years old at the
time of consumation. Did you read it? Or just the juicy bits?
What is strong about it? It is an argument. It can fall on any of the points
in the chain of reasoning.
In contrast Bukhari's hadiths are black-and-white. It _JUST_ states it.
And in fact I can find it in Sahih Muslim's collection and Sunnan Abu Dawud.
Those are the 2nd part of what Sunni Muslims regard as their holy books.
Oh, BTW it also says that Joseph at 90 married Mary at 12.
Right. And where does the source of this information come from?
John Smith
'it'
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
17 Jan 2008 02:38:10 PM |
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B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in news:478f4410$0$24086$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in news:478e7ef1$0$24086
$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
B J Foster <bjfoster@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:478df8e6$0$5200$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au:
Matt wrote:
"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:eZudnW58NtdS3BDaRVnyhgA@pipex.net:
...
In 2002 the Iranian government passed a law prohibiting
marriage
for girls aged less than 13 and boys aged less than 15 without
the
approval of the parents and a 'righteous court'. This
effectively
watered down a reformist bill proposed in 2000 that would have
made
the minimum age for marriage 15 for girls and 18 for boys.
Yes but the legal age of marriage of girls in Iran is 9 -
because
that follows what the paedophilic prophet did.
John Smith
John,
The there is no "legal age for marrige" in Iran, in Iran a man
can
marry an infant and diddle her - he just cant have INTERCOURSE
with
her till she's 9. See the original post.
No - see the reference that you quoted & then censored, to fit
your
blinkered view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children#Age_of_Marriage
The Sunni view:
"The Hanafi madhhab of Islamic fiqh maintains that a wife must not
be
taken to her husband's house until she reaches the condition of
fitness for sexual relations".
The Khomeini (Shi'a) view:
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if
the
girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited
from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other
sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed"
Why did you post one and not the other?
Because I was criticizing Khomeini.. I've written other articles on
Sunni Islam (ie the Wahabi's (Saudi Arabia) and the Taliban,
(Afghanistan). Its not any better.
Shia and Sunni Islam are seperate. If I write an article critical
of
Catholics, must I also include the Protestant, Evangelical, Mormon,
Jehova's Witness, and Moonies view?
Garbage.
Subject: "Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story"
It should be obvious that the topic was satirical; but not
completely.
Garbage. WTF does that mean? A bit each way, eh.
yes, a bit of satire mixed with truth, you conventiently clipped:
"The fact of the matter is that Aisha was Mohammeds favorite wife, and
she is to Mulsims what the "Mother Mary" is to Christians, she's highly
revered, and Mohammeds relationship with her, and her with him, is
looked at as the "perfect example" of Muslim marriage by both Shia and
Sunni. Here are a few references:"
scroll up if you want the links again
The fact of the matter is that Aisha was Mohammeds favorite wife, and
she is to Mulsims what the "Mother Mary" is to Christians, she's
highly
revered, and Mohammeds relationship with her, and her with him, is
looked at as the "perfect example" of Muslim marriage by both Shia
and
Sunni. Here are a few references:
http://www.wiu.edu/users/mfgp/Islam/Aisha.html
"Aisha was just a girl at the time so he waited to consummate his
marriage with her when she reached puberty"
Even at that time, a girl of 9 would not have been physically mature
enough to safely carry a child to term. Death in childbirth is common
among child brides, a fact that was even more true then than it is in
the age of modern medicine. Not to mention the fact that a 9 year old
can harldy be emotionally mature enough for sex or being a parent.
I don't believe that a 53 year old having sex with a 9 year old was even
"normal" or "acceptable" during Mohammeds time.
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
This one presents a strong argument that Aisha was 19 years old at the
time of consumation. Did you read it? Or just the juicy bits? Oh, BTW
it
also says that Joseph at 90 married Mary at 12.
Unfortunatly, both Shia and Sunni consider the "Lahore Movement" to be
non-Muslims. They are like the "Branch Davidians" of Islam.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUjWqRTBRzQ
.
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
17 Jan 2008 07:58:10 PM |
|
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In article <Xns9A288ABD64E6Dmattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
I don't believe that a 53 year old having sex with a 9 year old was even
"normal" or "acceptable" during Mohammeds time.
How long do you think Joseph waited before having sex with Mary?
Conventional wisdom is that Mary was 12 or 13 when she married Joseph
and that he was a 90 year old widower.
Cultural differences make it very difficult to judge the actions of
people in a different place and time. What seems abhorrent by one
culture may be perfectly acceptable in another.
In traditional Australian Aboriginal culture, for instance, it was very
common for marriages to be arranged soon after birth. The people
concerned often had no say in the matter. Very young girls were given to
old men, very young boys to old women. Sex within marriage was expected
and there was no concept of rape within marriage. traditional Aboriginal
culture had a very good reasons for pairing old with young. Can you
think what that reason may have been?
BTW most Australian Aborigines today claim Christianity as a religion,
yet we still have problems with cultural fundamentalists forcing sex
upon very young girls in some indigenous communities.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 08:26:09 PM |
|
|
"David Moss" <q0320811@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.21faa49d2a4e16b398afdb@news.bigpond.com...
In article <Xns9A288ABD64E6Dmattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
I don't believe that a 53 year old having sex with a 9 year old was even
"normal" or "acceptable" during Mohammeds time.
How long do you think Joseph waited before having sex with Mary?
Conventional wisdom is that Mary was 12 or 13 when she married Joseph
and that he was a 90 year old widower.
What 'conventional wisdom'? The entire story
may be a myth. Or folklore. Or a combination
of both.
Cultural differences make it very difficult to judge the actions of
people in a different place and time. What seems abhorrent by one
culture may be perfectly acceptable in another.
Try telling that to a screaming in agony, bleeding
nine year old child getting porked by a full grown
man five or six times as old as she is. The women
in such a culture have no say. The men make all
the rules. That makes such a culture only a half
culture.
In traditional Australian Aboriginal culture, for instance, it was very
common for marriages to be arranged soon after birth. The people
concerned often had no say in the matter. Very young girls were given to
old men, very young boys to old women. Sex within marriage was expected
and there was no concept of rape within marriage. traditional Aboriginal
culture had a very good reasons for pairing old with young. Can you
think what that reason may have been?
Teaching wisdom is one thing, forcing sex on a child
is another. There are all kinds of excuses for forcing
sex on a child that may still be too young to conceive.
BTW most Australian Aborigines today claim Christianity as a religion,
yet we still have problems with cultural fundamentalists forcing sex
upon very young girls in some indigenous communities.
Understandable when they see their Christian
preachers doing the same thing to both young
girls and boys.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
.
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| User: "Matt" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 12:38:17 AM |
|
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David Moss <q0320811@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in
news:MPG.21faa49d2a4e16b398afdb@news.bigpond.com:
In article <Xns9A288ABD64E6Dmattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
I don't believe that a 53 year old having sex with a 9 year old was
even "normal" or "acceptable" during Mohammeds time.
How long do you think Joseph waited before having sex with Mary?
Conventional wisdom is that Mary was 12 or 13 when she married Joseph
and that he was a 90 year old widower.
It would have been extremly rare for Joseph to have been alive at 90
during that era, he was also an active carpenter who taught Jesus his
trade and was still refererd to as "Jesus, the carpenters son" at the
time Jesus began his Earthly ministry at about age 30 or so according to
John. That would mean that Joseph lived to 120?
I dont know where you get the 90 years from, but i can't even imagine
that "conventional wisdom" would put him at that age, more like
"conventional stupidity"
Jesus strongly criticized the "conventional wisdom" during His time on
Earth and the fact of the matter is that we don't know her age.
Cultural differences make it very difficult to judge the actions of
people in a different place and time. What seems abhorrent by one
culture may be perfectly acceptable in another.
In traditional Australian Aboriginal culture, for instance, it was
very common for marriages to be arranged soon after birth. The people
concerned often had no say in the matter. Very young girls were given
to old men, very young boys to old women. Sex within marriage was
expected and there was no concept of rape within marriage. traditional
Aboriginal culture had a very good reasons for pairing old with young.
Can you think what that reason may have been?
BTW most Australian Aborigines today claim Christianity as a religion,
yet we still have problems with cultural fundamentalists forcing sex
upon very young girls in some indigenous communities.
.
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| User: "John Smith" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 01:44:06 PM |
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It would have been extremly rare for Joseph to have been alive at 90
during that era, he was also an active carpenter who taught Jesus his
trade and was still refererd to as "Jesus, the carpenters son" at the
time Jesus began his Earthly ministry at about age 30 or so according to
John. That would mean that Joseph lived to 120?
But you cannot tell that.
"Jesus, the carpenters son" might be form of identification just as among
some of my fathers friends who dont know me, I might be introduced, "This is
Ralph's son, John".
What we do know is that Joseph was alive at the start, alive when Jesus was
12 (see Luke 2:43) but after that fades from the picture. He is not
mentioned again.
The likelyhood is he dies sometime between when Jesus was 12 to 30.
John Smith
.
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
18 Jan 2008 03:07:59 PM |
|
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"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:zLKdnVGzw_4VnAzanZ2dnUVZ8sCknZ2d@pipex.net:
It would have been extremly rare for Joseph to have been alive at 90
during that era, he was also an active carpenter who taught Jesus his
trade and was still refererd to as "Jesus, the carpenters son" at the
time Jesus began his Earthly ministry at about age 30 or so according
to John. That would mean that Joseph lived to 120?
But you cannot tell that.
"Jesus, the carpenters son" might be form of identification just as
among some of my fathers friends who dont know me, I might be
introduced, "This is Ralph's son, John".
What we do know is that Joseph was alive at the start, alive when
Jesus was 12 (see Luke 2:43) but after that fades from the picture. He
is not mentioned again.
The likelyhood is he dies sometime between when Jesus was 12 to 30.
John Smith
He's mentioned agin in Mattew 13:55:
55. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and
his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
This shows me that Joseph was still known as "the carpenter" during Jesus
minsitry.
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
19 Jan 2008 04:51:23 PM |
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He's mentioned agin in Mattew 13:55:
55. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and
his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
This shows me that Joseph was still known as "the carpenter" during Jesus
minsitry.
Sure. But it does not prove he was alive.
In his time Joseph might have been famous as "the carpenter".
It he might have done exceptional work.
It is just a pidgeonholer (and you can see that by the following sentences,
also pidgeonholer).
It is all designed to remind others who Jesus is in context of his family.
It is also a slight "put-down" as in, "We know this person, he comes from
this family, he is nobody special".
Imagine if Lisa Presley was unknown, the daughter of Elvis Presley and Elvis
has died 10 years ago.
If she wandered into town and someone pointed her out, no one knew who she
was, then saying "She is Elvis Presley's daughter", gets the audience a
handle on who she is.
Same situation as above.
Elvis Presley is known, he is famous. But it does not prove that Elvis
Presley is alive.
John Smith
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| User: "Matt" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
19 Jan 2008 07:19:03 PM |
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"John Smith" <JohnSmith@ukgroupnews.com> wrote in
news:PI2dnbZrPM924w_anZ2dnUVZ8q6onZ2d@pipex.net:
He's mentioned agin in Mattew 13:55:
55. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary?
and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
This shows me that Joseph was still known as "the carpenter" during
Jesus minsitry.
Sure. But it does not prove he was alive.
In his time Joseph might have been famous as "the carpenter".
It he might have done exceptional work.
It is just a pidgeonholer (and you can see that by the following
sentences, also pidgeonholer).
It is all designed to remind others who Jesus is in context of his
family. It is also a slight "put-down" as in, "We know this person, he
comes from this family, he is nobody special".
Imagine if Lisa Presley was unknown, the daughter of Elvis Presley and
Elvis has died 10 years ago.
If she wandered into town and someone pointed her out, no one knew who
she was, then saying "She is Elvis Presley's daughter", gets the
audience a handle on who she is.
Same situation as above.
Elvis Presley is known, he is famous. But it does not prove that Elvis
Presley is alive.
John Smith
Well, since you think that way, let's put it in context then:
54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue,
so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this
wisdom and these miraculous powers?
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and
His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man
get all these things?"
57 And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is
not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."
So, in context, and in keeping with both the the story and the
prophecies of Jesus' humble beginnings, His critics were using His
humble / poor family status to try to discredit the validity of His
ministry.
They say "ARE THEY NOT ALL WITH US?" - He was in his home town, where
people knew Him and His family. It's reasonable to assume that had
Joseph died when Jesus was just a child, (as Jesus was about 30-33 when
he began His ministry), they would not still be calling Jesus "son of
the carpenter" and they certainly would not have said "ARE THEY NOT ALL
WITH US?"
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| User: "John Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
19 Jan 2008 07:46:17 PM |
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Well, since you think that way, let's put it in context then:
54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue,
so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this
wisdom and these miraculous powers?
55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and
His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56"And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man
get all these things?"
57 And they took offense at Him But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is
not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."
So, in context, and in keeping with both the the story and the
prophecies of Jesus' humble beginnings, His critics were using His
humble / poor family status to try to discredit the validity of His
ministry.
They say "ARE THEY NOT ALL WITH US?"
No they did not. Read your own quotes
"And His _SISTERS_, are they not all with us?"
Sisters. Not Father.
I also point out that at various times in the NT, you see members of Jesus's
family referred to.
You never see Joseph ever after the early days of Jesus's life.
Point me out one verse where he figures if you can that is unambiguous that
he is alive.
See John 2:5
"His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
See John 7:5
"For even his own brothers did not believe in him."
See John 7:10
"However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not
publicly, but in secret."
See John 20:25
"Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the
wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."
See Acts 1:14:
"They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and
Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."
Another example of a similar context is Luke 4:24
"All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from
his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked"
But no real indication that Joseph is still alive at that point.
John Smith
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| User: "David Moss" |
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| Title: Re: Mohammed and Aisha - The Perfect Love Story |
19 Jan 2008 09:15:15 PM |
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In article <Xns9A2ABA6A38C48mattbaylorgmailcom@216.196.97.131>,
mattbaylor@gmail.com writes...
They say "ARE THEY NOT ALL WITH US?" - He was in his home town, where
people knew Him and His family. It's reasonable to assume that had
Joseph died when Jesus was just a child, (as Jesus was about 30-33 when
he began His ministry), they would not still be calling Jesus "son of
the carpenter" and they certainly would not have said "ARE THEY NOT ALL
WITH US?"
It may be significant that Joseph (the elder) was not actually named, he
was referred to as "the carpenter". All the people actually named were
probably alive at the time. Its a hint.
--
DM
personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
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