| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"quibbler" |
| Date: |
04 Feb 2006 12:42:49 PM |
| Object: |
Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
theist agendas. But I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
If xian bigots and self-serving neo-cons happen to be coincidentially
travelling in the same direction that serves this cause, then hitching a
ride on the bandwagon for a while is simply the smart thing to do.
It's particularly fortunate that, in this case, those being mocked
are not Judeo-Xians. If the shoe were one the other foot, the xian
fundies would be screaming bloody murder (literally), just like the
muslim psychopaths are now. Given that most people in the US are
christians, they would immediately be blinded by their own religious and
cultural loyalties to the facts of the case. Likewise, if Judaism were
attacked, the knee-jerk anti-semitism charge would immediately shut down
debate. But that apparatus of closing down discussion in not as well
established for Islam, at least in the West. These comics prove that
point. Sure, the noise machine in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the
middle east is reaching hysterical proportions, but if even Denmark can
hold out against it, it proves that worldwide islam is really just a
paper tiger.
Thus, as I see it, we have an opportunity to really kick Islam in
the nuts right now and much more importantly to ridicule the ***** out of
religion in general. Our christian bedfellows will likely help us
propagate attacks against islam, without realizing that the criticisms
cut against them as well. In the course of pointing out the fanaticism
of Islam, it would be effortless to compare the Muslim outrage to the
Christian fulminations against shows like, "The Last Temptation of
Christ", or "Jerry Springer - the Opera" The criticisms that we make of
Islam could just as easily be translated to other religions, especially
its monotheistic and abrahamic cousins.
Also, I'd like to point something else out, because this always
seems to be a sticking point. It is mathematically ridiculous to
believe that you will end up being killed by Muslims for talking smack
about Mohammed, especially if you live in Heartland, USA. It was just as
mathematically illiterate for Americans to believe the post-911 neocon
hype that Buttfuck, Arkansas was next on Osama's attack list, but people
bought that lie too. So, I guess I'd say, you're more likely dying of a
heart attack worrying about it, than you actually are of being killed by
real terrorists.
Anyway, in the end, here's all I'm proposing. Do something. Talk
more ***** about mohammed online. Put up some flyers discretely in public
places with a few mohammed cartoons on them. Some cartoons do double
duty. I have a cartoon with Bin Laden on it that says, "Creationist of
the Year". One could easily put the same caption under the mohammed
cartoons as well and then it would even work for the upcoming Darwin Day
celebrations on Feb 12th.
If you all have other suggestions about possible actions then I
would encourage you all to post on this thread or creat another threat
that is clearly labelled. For those who think it's a bad idea to pile on
the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see responses from you
all too, specifically spelling out your case.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
| User: "Jim07D6" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 03:29:03 PM |
|
|
I appreciate your starting this thread even though I will disagree
with a couple of points.
quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> said:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
theist agendas. But I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
I will grant that right, as a reciprocal exercise of free expression.
Demanding isn't getting. I will resist attempts to enact that right
in law or enforce it by violence. *This* is the issue and it is what
we all must do. I assume that is what you really meant.
If xian bigots and self-serving neo-cons happen to be coincidentially
travelling in the same direction that serves this cause, then hitching a
ride on the bandwagon for a while is simply the smart thing to do.
We have to be very careful here because the repression of free
expression is a goal of the xian bigots and neocons, just as it is of
these Muslims who are demanding government repression and doing
violence on this issue. The "hitch" has to be under our control.
It's particularly fortunate that, in this case, those being mocked
are not Judeo-Xians. If the shoe were one the other foot, the xian
fundies would be screaming bloody murder (literally), just like the
muslim psychopaths are now.
They do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
(sorry about the Wikipedia reference, but I think it is accurate.)
<...>
if even Denmark can
hold out against it, it proves that worldwide islam is really just a
paper tiger.
This is a very interesting and good point, as to the significance of
this incident. I for one an puzzled about something:
Have any Muslim clerics stood up to say that those Danish cartoons are
not really depictions of Mohammed, because the Prophet of Islam cannot
be thought of as being the person those cartoons depict? It would seem
to be an error, or worse, to accept non-Muslim claims that they are
depictions of Mohammed. So, perhaps this issue *plays into* the hands
(or so they think) of Muslim extremists, who can say to the moderates,
"see how they debase us?" Instead of saying that the cartoonists were,
clearly, not depicting Mohammed at all!!!
Thus, as I see it, we have an opportunity to really kick Islam in
the nuts right now and much more importantly to ridicule the ***** out of
religion in general.
No thinking atheist wants to "kick Islam [or any religion] in the
nuts".
<...>
Anyway, in the end, here's all I'm proposing. Do something. Talk
more ***** about mohammed online. Put up some flyers discretely in public
places with a few mohammed cartoons on them. Some cartoons do double
duty. I have a cartoon with Bin Laden on it that says, "Creationist of
the Year". One could easily put the same caption under the mohammed
cartoons as well and then it would even work for the upcoming Darwin Day
celebrations on Feb 12th.
If you all have other suggestions about possible actions then I
would encourage you all to post on this thread or creat another threat
that is clearly labelled. For those who think it's a bad idea to pile on
the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see responses from you
all too, specifically spelling out your case.
This is going to sound like a lecture.
I don't think it is a "bad idea" in general to express yourself
freely; and what you suggest is generally legal. Each person has to
decide whether the effects of his free expression have sufficient
benefit for his goals, to outweigh any possible costs, according to
his own ethical standards. So I'd weigh all of the things you say
above with this in mind. Personally, I think what you suggest would be
counterproductive to any real solution to the problem and would just
be wanking away your energy.
For example, a particular Muslim family counts as being among my
closest friends. I know that they are striving to get along and be
successful in this society (here in northern California) while holding
true to their faith. They are a Pakistani wife and Indian husband and
two children in high school and college. THeir mailbox was bricked
right after 9/11. I would never get "in their face" about this issue,
but they know how I feel about the generally negative aspects of
religion. Far better, would be, if the subject comes up, and it
probably will, to say what I think (stated above), to listen to what
they have to say, and to discuss the inherent conflict that exists
between freedom of expression and protection of individual rights. I'd
suggest discussions like this.
--- Jim07D6
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mouseparty" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 10:39:13 AM |
|
|
Jim07D6 wrote:
It's particularly fortunate that, in this case, those being mocked
are not Judeo-Xians. If the shoe were one the other foot, the xian
fundies would be screaming bloody murder (literally), just like the
muslim psychopaths are now.
They do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
(sorry about the Wikipedia reference, but I think it is accurate.)
<...>
If you found examples Christians calling for the murder or even harm of
the artist (Andres Serrano), or even burning of buildings with any
Christian leader not denouncing it, you'd have a point. Your comparo is
weak. The strength of Christianity is it's ability to temper it's
outrage within the confines of the law. If you want to try again, go
for it. The Erik Rudolphs, and abortion bombers are always denounced by
Christian leaders for their acts. If you can, try to asemble an
argument with examples that show Christians (modern day- within 100
years) calling for the killing, or harming of untried/processed people
for their acts which were offensive to Christianity. I will bet that
your reply will be one of attacking rather than clarity, or one of
potent examples.
You are right though that no religion, or any person really has the
right to not be offended. I agree 100%. I think more SHOULD be said.
But we can do without the violent reactions.
My best to you.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim07D6" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 11:37:51 AM |
|
|
"Mouseparty" <mouseparty@mac.com> said:
Jim07D6 wrote:
It's particularly fortunate that, in this case, those being mocked
are not Judeo-Xians. If the shoe were one the other foot, the xian
fundies would be screaming bloody murder (literally), just like the
muslim psychopaths are now.
They do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
(sorry about the Wikipedia reference, but I think it is accurate.)
<...>
If you found examples Christians calling for the murder or even harm of
the artist (Andres Serrano), or even burning of buildings with any
Christian leader not denouncing it, you'd have a point. Your comparo is
weak.
You seem to have missed the point of my reply to the initial post, or
are replying to a tangential part of it.
The statement I was replying to was "screaming bloody murder" which is
only screaming. If you want to interpret that as "calling for the
murder" then I agree I'd have to look deeper for an example.
The strength of Christianity is it's ability to temper it's
outrage within the confines of the law.
That is a relatively recent development, and is always under threat of
failure. One reason it works is that so many key Christian values
*are* embodied in law. But when they aren't, or are perceived not to
be, things tend to happen that are outside the law.
After all, Pat Robertson even uses God as his hit man, against the
citizens of Dover and Israel's Sharon.
If you want to try again, go
for it. The Erik Rudolphs, and abortion bombers are always denounced by
Christian leaders for their acts.
Mainstream Christian leaders, you mean.
Muslim leaders have denounced some of the recent reactions by
Lebanese, for example, saying that those actions do not represent
Islam.
If you can, try to asemble an
argument with examples that show Christians (modern day- within 100
years) calling for the killing, or harming of untried/processed people
for their acts which were offensive to Christianity. I will bet that
your reply will be one of attacking rather than clarity, or one of
potent examples.
No it won't be one of attacking, but you yourself provided the Rudolph
example. The fact is that when the deepest Christian values are not
enacted in law, some Christians will condone and even commit violence
to defend them.
This is not to say that Islam is on a par. Islam has deeper problems
-- it wants to be "one faith" but its lack of centralized authority
allows the fringe elements to operate somewhat more freely than, say,
a radical Catholic group can. Its Koran and tradition can be and are
more easily read as justifying violence, by some who are not
"excommunicatable" and it lacks the tools to work from within a
democratic society for change. It is more often than Christianity, an
"outsider's" religion in the West and is rubbing shoulders more and
more with the West. If Islam had more political clout, it would be as
illegal in Germany, Austria, Francs, etc. to do what was done with the
cartoons, as it is to deny the Holocaust. It is amazing that Islam,
with 100 times as many adherents as Judaism, has so much less
non-violent political clout in the world.
You are right though that no religion, or any person really has the
right to not be offended. I agree 100%. I think more SHOULD be said.
But we can do without the violent reactions.
Agreed.
--- Jim07D6
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mouseparty" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 12:10:17 PM |
|
|
I like this group.
Smart folks.
Take care.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 01:42:46 PM |
|
|
I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea
that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
Just go on an Islamic sites and do
it.
Ny advice is, you better stck to Christians and
Jewish people.
Regards,
Jim
.
|
|
|
| User: "Rune B" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 02:44:47 PM |
|
|
On 4 Feb 2006 11:42:46 -0800, wrote:
I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea
that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
This has been my stance all along. The progress we've made in the last
few hundred years has been BECAUSE people dared defy religion. If that
ends... well...
And the nerve of muslims to think they can not only stifle muslims in
their own countries, but secular democratic societies... no that's
just unacceptable.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
05 Feb 2006 05:01:08 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:44:47 +0100, Rune B <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:
On 4 Feb 2006 11:42:46 -0800, wrote:
I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea
that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
This has been my stance all along. The progress we've made in the last
few hundred years has been BECAUSE people dared defy religion. If that
ends... well...
And the nerve of muslims to think they can not only stifle muslims in
their own countries, but secular democratic societies... no that's
just unacceptable.
I couldn't agree more. If we were talking about _THEIR_ societies, I
wouldn't like it. But they are trying to get us back into the stone
age.
I begin to understand how 3rd century (pagan!) Romans felt: in the
country being hunted by a blokes that make Rev Paisley and Pat
Robertson look like stoned Teletubbies. And from the outside by other
barbarians...
What surprises me a lot more is that those cartoons are NOT offensive
in any way. Only people with a severe mental problem and a hair
trigger sense of being offended (that does describe mohammedans quite
well, doesn't it?) might be offended. If pressed.
On the other hand, the picture created by Gregorius Nekschot shows a
drooling filthy arab screwing a butt-ugly woman doggy style. It
explicitly mentions what it is: Mo deflowering his last wife, Aicha,
at the age of 9.
On a scale of 0-10; I'd say the Danish pics rate 1, at worst 2. The
Nekschot picture rates 25 on this scale.
Not a single complaint has been heard about it. Weird.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Rune B" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
05 Feb 2006 05:59:12 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:01:08 +0700, Jos Flachs <xwcruise@ksc15.th.com>
wrote:
On a scale of 0-10; I'd say the Danish pics rate 1, at worst 2. The
Nekschot picture rates 25 on this scale.
Not a single complaint has been heard about it. Weird.
There's a fresco in a church in Bologna in italy that depicts Mohammed
falling to the ninth level of hell with a white snake wrapped around
him..... Al Qaida supposedly had a plot to blow it up, but I see no
demonstrations concerning this either.
Some moderate muslims have suggested that the reason muslims are
acting so harshly against the scandinavian countries is because they
ARE tolerant, because are small, and they are easier to coerse than a
large country. An organization related to Al Qaida has actually said
that the first part of their campaign to islamize europe will be to
create a beachead in the small, secular, most tolerant and timid
countries.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 06:55:14 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 12:59:12 +0100, Rune B <nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:01:08 +0700, Jos Flachs <xwcruise@ksc15.th.com>
wrote:
On a scale of 0-10; I'd say the Danish pics rate 1, at worst 2. The
Nekschot picture rates 25 on this scale.
Not a single complaint has been heard about it. Weird.
There's a fresco in a church in Bologna in italy that depicts Mohammed
falling to the ninth level of hell with a white snake wrapped around
him..... Al Qaida supposedly had a plot to blow it up, but I see no
demonstrations concerning this either.
That's new to me, but doesn't surprise me at all.
Some moderate muslims have suggested that the reason muslims are
acting so harshly against the scandinavian countries is because they
ARE tolerant, because are small, and they are easier to coerse than a
large country.
A moderate muslim is much more radical than rev. Ian Paisley (the chap
that kept the IRA-UK war going).
An organization related to Al Qaida has actually said
that the first part of their campaign to islamize europe will be to
create a beachead in the small, secular, most tolerant and timid
countries.
They already have those beachheads, and we have plenty of Vidkungs to
assist them. Fifth columns isn't a problem either.
To my surprise I discovered some months ago that on many Dutch schools
one is NOT allowed to wear a Dutch flag. You get expelled for that.
Those schools consider wearing a Dutch flag (even a 3x2 cm one) 'an
open act of racism. This is an established fact. I can post stories of
students expelled for that reason.
However, rifniggers wearing turkish or moroccan flags are fully
acceptable.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
05 Feb 2006 04:24:44 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:42:49 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
theist agendas. But I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
[]
If you all have other suggestions about possible actions then I
would encourage you all to post on this thread or creat another threat
that is clearly labelled. For those who think it's a bad idea to pile on
the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see responses from you
all too, specifically spelling out your case.
Thumbnails
http://www.imagedemon.com/image.asp?pic=6&id=060205134438-685445703&name=&up=&s=2
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Rune B" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 02:43:37 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:42:49 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
This is the thing you come to realize... arab conservatives are
right-wing with nazi sympathies. I wouldn't be surprised if they one
day struck a tone together.
.
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 03:08:41 PM |
|
|
In article <8e4au1tij1mhh1dhfrvivrbfuv6k72bmjr@4ax.com>,
nobody@nowhere.net says...
On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:42:49 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
This is the thing you come to realize... arab conservatives are
right-wing with nazi sympathies.
They certainly are in love with authoritarianism and treat death threats
and violence as a first resort.
I wouldn't be surprised if they one
day struck a tone together.
Ever seen pictures of Bush holding hands with the saudi monarch ?
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
| User: "Rune B" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 03:40:57 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 4 Feb 2006 14:08:41 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ever seen pictures of Bush holding hands with the saudi monarch ?
I came over a book at the library the other day, with Hitler a bunch
of arab leaders saluting him with nazi greeting... makes ya think.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David Goldberg" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 02:07:15 PM |
|
|
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
First, you need to realize that Islam is not a race. Criticizing Muslims is
no more "racist" than criticizing Christians.
Second, most American atheists are actually anti-Christians, rather than true
atheists. Your soul-searching post is the perfect example. You can't figure
out if you should start bashing Muslims or not, because you normally consider
them an ally in your anti-Christian bigotry.
--
"If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we want
to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
~President George W. Bush
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 02:48:11 PM |
|
|
David Goldberg wrote:
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
First, you need to realize that Islam is not a race. Criticizing Muslims is
no more "racist" than criticizing Christians.
Second, most American atheists are actually anti-Christians, rather than true
atheists.
Atheists don't believe in gods. Christians are the most prominent
incarnation of theists in America. Consequently, it's not surprising
that American atheists are often at odds with Christians. But don't
worry, it's not to the exclusion of other religions. It's really just
that other religions don't have such a tendency to seek special
treatment in America.
Your soul-searching post is the perfect example. You can't figure
out if you should start bashing Muslims or not, because you normally consider
them an ally in your anti-Christian bigotry.
I do believe you have it backwards. Quibbler seemed more hesitant to
side with the Christians than speak against the Muslims. To be honest,
I find Islam more appalling than Christianity. This is because it is
the more potent force. Christianity has been largely neutered by
secularism, while Islam is still unchecked in some areas.
One more thing. You say we're anti-Christian, but I'd like to point out
that for the most part we're okay with Christians. It's Christianity
that we have a problem with, not the majority of its adherents.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Walter Bushell" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 06:27:45 PM |
|
|
In article <1139086091.149297.226580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Atheists don't believe in gods. Christians are the most prominent
incarnation of theists in America. Consequently, it's not surprising
that American atheists are often at odds with Christians. But don't
worry, it's not to the exclusion of other religions. It's really just
that other religions don't have such a tendency to seek special
treatment in America.
Other religions may seek special treatment, but they seldom get it.
--
"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any
charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgement of his
peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totali-
tarian government whether Nazi or Communist." -- W. Churchill, Nov 21, 1943
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 11:18:48 PM |
|
|
Walter Bushell wrote:
In article <1139086091.149297.226580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote:
Atheists don't believe in gods. Christians are the most prominent
incarnation of theists in America. Consequently, it's not surprising
that American atheists are often at odds with Christians. But don't
worry, it's not to the exclusion of other religions. It's really just
that other religions don't have such a tendency to seek special
treatment in America.
Other religions may seek special treatment, but they seldom get it.
Right. Thank you for correcting me.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 03:20:32 PM |
|
|
In article <1139086091.149297.226580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
effigies@gmail.com says...
David Goldberg wrote:
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
First, you need to realize that Islam is not a race. Criticizing Muslims is
no more "racist" than criticizing Christians.
Second, most American atheists are actually anti-Christians, rather than true
atheists.
Atheists don't believe in gods. Christians are the most prominent
incarnation of theists in America. Consequently, it's not surprising
that American atheists are often at odds with Christians. But don't
worry, it's not to the exclusion of other religions. It's really just
that other religions don't have such a tendency to seek special
treatment in America.
Your soul-searching post is the perfect example. You can't figure
out if you should start bashing Muslims or not, because you normally consider
them an ally in your anti-Christian bigotry.
I do believe you have it backwards. Quibbler seemed more hesitant to
side with the Christians than speak against the Muslims.
Very true. It's hard to catalog all the ways that this guy got my
position wrong. My experience with xians has generally been more direct
and more negative than my experience with actual muslims. That's not to
say that, from what I have seen of Muslims, I find them particularly
deserving of respect. They seem to be even preachier than xian fundies.
Anyway, if I were truly a bigot about it, I wouldn't be willing to
cooperate with christians for any reason. In fact I have, on a number of
occasions, worked with groups and causes that were nominally xian or
ecumenical and included both xians and muslims. We've had officially
muslim and xian humanists in several of the organizations with which I've
been active.
I find Islam more appalling than Christianity. This is because it is
the more potent force. Christianity has been largely neutered by
secularism, while Islam is still unchecked in some areas.
True, its theocratic model has made it a bit harder to disentangle it
from politics.
One more thing. You say we're anti-Christian, but I'd like to point out
that for the most part we're okay with Christians. It's Christianity
that we have a problem with, not the majority of its adherents.
That's largely accurate as well. I primarily oppose the ideology, those
some fundamentalists attempt to embody the ideology so thoroughly, that
it would be fair to say that I am against them as well.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 02:47:21 PM |
|
|
In article <43E50973.5545F1E5@yahoo.com>, says...
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
First, you need to realize that Islam is not a race.
Nor did I ever say that it was. Obviously there are many non-arab
muslims, but racists like to focus on the arabs because they have already
built up hatred for brown-skinned foreigners. Arab Muslims are a two-fer
because they are both brown and non-xian.
Criticizing Muslims is
no more "racist" than criticizing Christians.
Irrelevant. Many racists find it easy to hate muslims because they
stereotypically associate islam with images of "sand niggers" or brown-
skinned "camel jockeys". I suppose next you are going to make the
brilliant observation that not all muslims ride camels.
Second, most American atheists are actually anti-Christians
I certainly am, but that is not the only religion I am against. I am
also anti-Muslim, anti-Judaic and anti-Hindu, for example. That is, I
think all those religions are terribly perverse and fucked up.
, rather than true
atheists.
Your either/or fallacy doesn't work. One can be both an anti-christian
and more generally an atheist. I find it convenient to attack
Christianity only because it is the the one that most people in my part
of the world practice.
Your soul-searching post is the perfect example.
There is no soul, nor was I searching for it.
You can't figure
out if you should start bashing Muslims
No, you stupid *****, I very definitely can figure out to start
bashing them. I advocate it very clearly. What I am trying to do is
persuade other people that the bashing purely a religious criticism and
not motivated by factors that religious bigots and probably neocons like
yourself might employ.
or not, because you normally consider
them an ally in your anti-Christian bigotry.
Your half-assed attempt at psychoanalysis was truly pathetic and
obviously deeply flawed. About the only thing you were right about was
that I am anti-Christian, though that does not prevent me from being an
atheist as well. Also, there is nothing bigoted about being anti-
Christian per se. I oppose christianity on the basis of argument and
evidence. You, however, oppose atheism based upon ignorance and
misinterpretation, making you the more likely of the two of us to be the
religious bigot.
As to your even more idiotic charge that I consider Muslims to be allies,
that is highly doubtful. First of all, they often have very little power
and therefore would not generally make useful allies. Secondly, their
dogma makes them far more likely to be theocrats who cannot separate
church and state. Finally, most Muslims wouldn't cooperate with atheists
because of the fucked up teachings of their moronic holy book. However,
if the opportunity presents itself for me to be able to work with muslims
to help undermine xianity, I would seriously consider it.
--
"If there are people inside our country who are talking with al Qaeda, we want
to know about it, because we will not sit back and wait to be hit again."
You mean like before when he did sit back and allow Al Quaeda cells in
the US to conduct 911 operations, even though PDBs showed that jihadists
were in the country, planning an imminent attack.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
05 Feb 2006 04:26:38 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:07:15 -0800, David Goldberg
<david_asbnll@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
First, you need to realize that Islam is not a race. Criticizing Muslims is
no more "racist" than criticizing Christians.
Second, most American atheists are actually anti-Christians,
You really are a lying sack of christian dogshit, no different than the
rioting muslims.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Johnson" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
04 Feb 2006 01:28:09 PM |
|
|
quibbler wrote:
Like most atheists, I'm fairly liberal and tolerant and I'm
certainly not a racist. Therefore, I'm hesitant to get out there with
the right-wing, arab-hating, neo-con bigots who might like to seize the
opportunity to make fun of mohammed to advance their own racist and
theist agendas. But I do think that atheists have an opportunity here to
symbolically defeat religion in general, by attacking the very idea that
any religion has a right to declare itself to be immune from criticism.
If xian bigots and self-serving neo-cons happen to be coincidentially
travelling in the same direction that serves this cause, then hitching a
ride on the bandwagon for a while is simply the smart thing to do.
It's particularly fortunate that, in this case, those being mocked
are not Judeo-Xians. If the shoe were one the other foot, the xian
fundies would be screaming bloody murder (literally), just like the
muslim psychopaths are now. Given that most people in the US are
christians, they would immediately be blinded by their own religious and
cultural loyalties to the facts of the case. Likewise, if Judaism were
attacked, the knee-jerk anti-semitism charge would immediately shut down
debate. But that apparatus of closing down discussion in not as well
established for Islam, at least in the West. These comics prove that
point. Sure, the noise machine in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the
middle east is reaching hysterical proportions, but if even Denmark can
hold out against it, it proves that worldwide islam is really just a
paper tiger.
Thus, as I see it, we have an opportunity to really kick Islam in
the nuts right now and much more importantly to ridicule the ***** out of
religion in general. Our christian bedfellows will likely help us
propagate attacks against islam, without realizing that the criticisms
cut against them as well. In the course of pointing out the fanaticism
of Islam, it would be effortless to compare the Muslim outrage to the
Christian fulminations against shows like, "The Last Temptation of
Christ", or "Jerry Springer - the Opera" The criticisms that we make of
Islam could just as easily be translated to other religions, especially
its monotheistic and abrahamic cousins.
Also, I'd like to point something else out, because this always
seems to be a sticking point. It is mathematically ridiculous to
believe that you will end up being killed by Muslims for talking smack
about Mohammed, especially if you live in Heartland, USA. It was just as
mathematically illiterate for Americans to believe the post-911 neocon
hype that Buttfuck, Arkansas was next on Osama's attack list, but people
bought that lie too. So, I guess I'd say, you're more likely dying of a
heart attack worrying about it, than you actually are of being killed by
real terrorists.
Anyway, in the end, here's all I'm proposing. Do something. Talk
more ***** about mohammed online. Put up some flyers discretely in public
places with a few mohammed cartoons on them. Some cartoons do double
duty. I have a cartoon with Bin Laden on it that says, "Creationist of
the Year". One could easily put the same caption under the mohammed
cartoons as well and then it would even work for the upcoming Darwin Day
celebrations on Feb 12th.
If you all have other suggestions about possible actions then I
would encourage you all to post on this thread or creat another threat
that is clearly labelled. For those who think it's a bad idea to pile on
the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see responses from you
all too, specifically spelling out your case.
While I feel no inclination to go out of my way to attack Islam, I'll
defend those that mock Mohammed and Islam. To respond with death
threats is out of line, and it is necessary to show that we will not be
intimidated. Besides, they've got to know they're nothing special.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jesus H Christ" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 07:21:26 AM |
|
|
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1139081289.318664.144740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
quibbler wrote:
<snip>
For those who think it's a bad idea
to pile on the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see
responses from you all too, specifically spelling out your case.
While I feel no inclination to go out of my way to attack Islam, I'll
defend those that mock Mohammed and Islam. To respond with death
threats is out of line, and it is necessary to show that we will not
be intimidated. Besides, they've got to know they're nothing special.
(dude, trim the quote body appropriately when bottom posting, there's a
good chap)
I definitely think taking the attitude that you CANT make 'us' behave
according to your religious dogma is the best approach to take.
We dont want the religious extremists to confuse western pluralism and
tolerance with weakness and a willingness to appease.
So the boot should be firmly applied to the weak areas; the principles
and premises of Islam. It's a spiritualistic religion, founded in an
inflexible and outdated dogma.
There ARE very sensible laws in most western democracies to prevent the
incitement of violence along religious or ethnic grounds. I dont believe
these cartoons could in ANY way be seen to meet those kind of criteria.
This kind of collective insanity in response to CARTOONS for fucks sake,
is just another sign that it's time for outdated memes to go off to the
graveyard of bad ideas and wither away.
So in short, ***** 'em if they can't take a joke.
jesus!
.
|
|
|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
06 Feb 2006 05:09:46 PM |
|
|
Jesus H Christ wrote:
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1139081289.318664.144740@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
quibbler wrote:
<snip>
For those who think it's a bad idea
to pile on the anti-mohammed bandwagon right now, I'd like to see
responses from you all too, specifically spelling out your case.
While I feel no inclination to go out of my way to attack Islam, I'll
defend those that mock Mohammed and Islam. To respond with death
threats is out of line, and it is necessary to show that we will not
be intimidated. Besides, they've got to know they're nothing special.
(dude, trim the quote body appropriately when bottom posting, there's a
good chap)
I definitely think taking the attitude that you CANT make 'us' behave
according to your religious dogma is the best approach to take.
We dont want the religious extremists to confuse western pluralism and
tolerance with weakness and a willingness to appease.
So the boot should be firmly applied to the weak areas; the principles
and premises of Islam. It's a spiritualistic religion, founded in an
inflexible and outdated dogma.
Exactly. The problem is, waht to do with a religiuon based on a book
filled with violent commands, and Hadiths that present Mohammed as
commanding violence.
We also have the not really well known Mohammed himself, who
was not a very good person.
Really, what is need now is for somebody to obtain a
copyright free copy of Ibn Ishaq's "Life of Mohammed"
and post this to various websites, not more inane cartoons.
Knowing the real history of Mohammed and the real history
of Islam is more important than lame cartoons.
Only when the world knows teh facts can we shame moderate
and good Moslems into abandoning the more evil parts of
the Quran and Hadiths and reigning in the more violent
and ignorant aspects of Islam.
And this is for the good of the Islamic world.
They are in no shape to be at war with the world,
and will be in serious trouble if they cannot get
over this before their oil runs out.
Islam as a blueprint is not working for Islamic
nations. Pakistan's women have only 14% literacy.
How can such a nation hope to compete with the
West, Russia, South America or China? Or worse,
be of any use to the world, either as a market or
a trading partner?
If we take nations as the ends of their philosophies,
Islam as a religion and a philosophy is a failure.
And since they had a large headstart on the west in
the 12th century, that takes some heartfelt searching
for an explanation of why now they are behind even the
Chinese who were prostrate in the 50's over a century
of war and destruction.
I don't think though that the crazies will ever
think about these things.
There ARE very sensible laws in most western democracies to prevent the
incitement of violence along religious or ethnic grounds. I dont
believe these cartoons could in ANY way be seen to meet those kind of
criteria.
This kind of collective insanity in response to CARTOONS for fucks
sake, is just another sign that it's time for outdated memes to go off
to the graveyard of bad ideas and wither away.
So in short, ***** 'em if they can't take a joke.
jesus!
--
The first law of the false prophet has
always and ever been "Don't laugh!"
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
07 Feb 2006 07:32:14 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:09:46 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
Jesus H Christ wrote:
[]
So the boot should be firmly applied to the weak areas; the principles
and premises of Islam. It's a spiritualistic religion, founded in an
inflexible and outdated dogma.
Exactly. The problem is, waht to do with a religiuon based on a book
filled with violent commands, and Hadiths that present Mohammed as
commanding violence.
We also have the not really well known Mohammed himself, who
was not a very good person.
Really, what is need now is for somebody to obtain a
copyright free copy of Ibn Ishaq's "Life of Mohammed"
and post this to various websites, not more inane cartoons.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/muhammadi-sira.html
This text is part of the Internet Source Book. The Sourcebook is a
collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval
and Byzantine history.
Knowing the real history of Mohammed and the real history
of Islam is more important than lame cartoons.
Only when the world knows teh facts can we shame moderate
and good Moslems into abandoning the more evil parts of
the Quran and Hadiths and reigning in the more violent
and ignorant aspects of Islam.
And this is for the good of the Islamic world.
They are in no shape to be at war with the world,
and will be in serious trouble if they cannot get
over this before their oil runs out.
They're already in serious trouble.
Islam as a blueprint is not working for Islamic
nations. Pakistan's women have only 14% literacy.
How can such a nation hope to compete with the
West, Russia, South America or China? Or worse,
be of any use to the world, either as a market or
a trading partner?
They can't and don't care to.
If we take nations as the ends of their philosophies,
Islam as a religion and a philosophy is a failure.
And since they had a large headstart on the west in
the 12th century, that takes some heartfelt searching
for an explanation of why now they are behind even the
Chinese who were prostrate in the 50's over a century
of war and destruction.
I don't think though that the crazies will ever
think about these things.
They can't, it's fundamentally impossible.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mouseparty" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
08 Feb 2006 05:23:52 PM |
|
|
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
__________
I doubt you are in any danger in America from the fundamentalist
Christians for your above remark.
Their strength is that they can ignore hateful comments like yours.
And, you may not know it, but giggle a bit at your inability to see
your own hypocracy.
God Bless, and please sterilize that cross before inserting.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
09 Feb 2006 09:18:06 AM |
|
|
"Mouseparty" <mouseparty@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1139441032.026541.319860@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
__________
I doubt you are in any danger in America from the fundamentalist
Christians for your above remark.
Their strength is that they can ignore hateful comments like yours.
And, you may not know it, but giggle a bit at your inability to see
your own hypocracy.
God Bless, and please sterilize that cross before inserting.
Troll.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
09 Feb 2006 10:25:18 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:18:06 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in alt.atheism
"Mouseparty" <mouseparty@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1139441032.026541.319860@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
__________
I doubt you are in any danger in America from the fundamentalist
Christians for your above remark.
Their strength is that they can ignore hateful comments like yours.
And, you may not know it, but giggle a bit at your inability to see
your own hypocracy.
God Bless, and please sterilize that cross before inserting.
Troll.
Of course.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
09 Feb 2006 10:31:34 AM |
|
|
Mouseparty wrote:
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
I doubt you are in any danger in America from the fundamentalist
Christians for your above remark.
Oh, if he wore it around town printed on the back of his shirt he might
take some abuse. Probably nothing too physical though, just some
occasional pushing and screaming.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mouseparty" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
09 Feb 2006 02:43:50 PM |
|
|
You live in your little world where if you wish it, it is so.
We are in much greater danger from the left as far as our civil
liberties go, than from the right.
Just try to say what you want at work. Maybe to some hot woman with
great legs how nice she looks. The prohibition on noticing came from
the left.
Or a 6 year old in Boston gets thrown out of school for sexual
harassment for snapping a waisteband.
Your little world is way too bizzarre for me. And i am sure yu don't
care. Pretty soon all your little pecks to make your perfect world
through the courts will conflict with itself and you won't know what
you believe.
Your hatred of the right and your reasons require far more faith in
conspiracy than most people's faith in a higher being.
In short, I get a chuckle out of your cross shoving-fundie hating- "you
guys are intollerant, but we are not" position.
Jesus loves you, too.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mohammed Cartoon Thing Is BIG Opportunity For Atheists |
09 Feb 2006 10:25:06 AM |
|
|
On 8 Feb 2006 15:23:52 -0800, "Mouseparty" <mouseparty@mac.com> wrote in
alt.atheism
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
__________
I doubt you are in any danger in America from the fundamentalist
Christians for your above remark.
I really don't give a damn about the Christians or their blood brothers
the Muslims.
Their strength is that they can ignore hateful comments like yours.
Projection noted. You might see a mental health professional bout that.
A cordial invitation they do not have to accept is not hateful.
And, you may not know it, but giggle a bit at your inability to see
your own hypocracy.
What hypocrisy would that be, nutcase? Be sure to specify and back it
up with objective supporting evidence.
God Bless, and please sterilize that cross before inserting.
Stupid fucking Christians who can't bloody read.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
