Religions > Atheism > Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
20 Oct 2005 11:27:02 PM |
| Object: |
Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
This woman should claim that she was only exercising her "right to choose"
and have the ACLU represent her in court.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/12955752.htm
Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay
SAN FRANCISCO - A mentally ill woman seen dropping her three sons into San
Francisco Bay from a downtown pier was charged with three counts of murder
Thursday while anguished relatives kept vigil and rescuers combed the chilly
water for the bodies of two of the victims.
Lashuan T. Harris, 23, of Oakland, was held in a hospital jail ward after
police saw her pushing an empty baby stroller away from the pier where a
witness reported spotting a woman drop the children off the end Wednesday
night.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 11:01:53 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:27:55 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<4t0vl1tqel8t5cd3t5vefd72es3lsho7p6@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:31:23 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<16jul1tfk3csu6fc3j7c7etm701ojehns6@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:36:05 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ck9sl1hu132d7kgvm081e887jhhb2n0lce@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:14:13 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<bptrl1tnej3g6nu30hcpq2j1bg7unlpqgq@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:43:39 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ualql1t6euvjj44bprp8om03s28f2n4r2i@4ax.com> wrote:
...
There is little incentive to reopen a case of a person who has already
been executed. It is far too embarrassing to the state and cannot do
anything for the victim of the execution.
A case would be reopened based on new evidence. That would have
nothing to do with the status of the convicted person.
Who would reopen it? The victim of the miscarriage of justice is dead.
If the prisoner is serving time who would reopen it?
The motion of the prisoner through his lawyer. We do not reopen cases
after a person who has been unjustly convicted of committing a capital
offense has been executed.
If evidence turned up showing either that the executed man was
innocent or someone else was guilty it would be reopened.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 10:08:55 PM |
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Attila <Attila> wrote:
David Jensen
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
If the prisoner is serving time who would reopen it?
The motion of the prisoner through his lawyer. We do not reopen cases
after a person who has been unjustly convicted of committing a capital
offense has been executed.
If evidence turned up showing either that the executed man was
innocent or someone else was guilty it would be reopened.
And that's going to bring the person back to life?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 11:54:39 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:01:53 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<f1avl1tllr9q8lv1ca0ugjorlupruug6jj@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:27:55 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<4t0vl1tqel8t5cd3t5vefd72es3lsho7p6@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:31:23 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<16jul1tfk3csu6fc3j7c7etm701ojehns6@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:36:05 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ck9sl1hu132d7kgvm081e887jhhb2n0lce@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:14:13 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<bptrl1tnej3g6nu30hcpq2j1bg7unlpqgq@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:43:39 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ualql1t6euvjj44bprp8om03s28f2n4r2i@4ax.com> wrote:
...
There is little incentive to reopen a case of a person who has already
been executed. It is far too embarrassing to the state and cannot do
anything for the victim of the execution.
A case would be reopened based on new evidence. That would have
nothing to do with the status of the convicted person.
Who would reopen it? The victim of the miscarriage of justice is dead.
If the prisoner is serving time who would reopen it?
The motion of the prisoner through his lawyer. We do not reopen cases
after a person who has been unjustly convicted of committing a capital
offense has been executed.
If evidence turned up showing either that the executed man was
innocent or someone else was guilty it would be reopened.
Really? I have no reason to believe it.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 09:22:11 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:54:39 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<i5dvl1tcui1akijl7kc5e6sqlgh8ihepse@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:01:53 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<f1avl1tllr9q8lv1ca0ugjorlupruug6jj@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:27:55 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<4t0vl1tqel8t5cd3t5vefd72es3lsho7p6@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:31:23 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<16jul1tfk3csu6fc3j7c7etm701ojehns6@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:36:05 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ck9sl1hu132d7kgvm081e887jhhb2n0lce@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:14:13 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<bptrl1tnej3g6nu30hcpq2j1bg7unlpqgq@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:43:39 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ualql1t6euvjj44bprp8om03s28f2n4r2i@4ax.com> wrote:
...
There is little incentive to reopen a case of a person who has already
been executed. It is far too embarrassing to the state and cannot do
anything for the victim of the execution.
A case would be reopened based on new evidence. That would have
nothing to do with the status of the convicted person.
Who would reopen it? The victim of the miscarriage of justice is dead.
If the prisoner is serving time who would reopen it?
The motion of the prisoner through his lawyer. We do not reopen cases
after a person who has been unjustly convicted of committing a capital
offense has been executed.
If evidence turned up showing either that the executed man was
innocent or someone else was guilty it would be reopened.
Really? I have no reason to believe it.
Which is certainly no reason to eliminate the death penalty.
.
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| User: "Pauline Barclay" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
23 Oct 2005 05:37:01 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:44:46 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
Remember, with your approach the real criminal is free and still killing
because you don't care if the person punished is the person who actually
committed the crime.
I've addressed this and it doesn't phase him.
He doesn't care.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
23 Oct 2005 03:05:37 PM |
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On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
.... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 05:17:30 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty. If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 04:15:31 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1ilpl1t7jver879ljp47uaocsrri96avt1@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty.
Yes, I do get it. I also get that the legal system is based on the
assumption that the result of a legal trial is legal and proper and
that result is correct within the context of that system. The
sentence procedure is also a part of the legal system and no
presumption of guilt or innocence should be made when there is a jury
verdict present.
If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
It is a very real part of our society that economic status matters. At
one time it was family, and further back it was the ability to beat
hell out of anyone who disagreed with you.
No system is perfect, especially a human social structure. And never
will be.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 04:42:43 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:15:31 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<vdjql1dgjsdjnku9lg8553sntnsuiptvt2@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1ilpl1t7jver879ljp47uaocsrri96avt1@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty.
Yes, I do get it. I also get that the legal system is based on the
assumption that the result of a legal trial is legal and proper and
that result is correct within the context of that system. The
sentence procedure is also a part of the legal system and no
presumption of guilt or innocence should be made when there is a jury
verdict present.
If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
It is a very real part of our society that economic status matters. At
one time it was family, and further back it was the ability to beat
hell out of anyone who disagreed with you.
No system is perfect, especially a human social structure. And never
will be.
Then why are you so upset with the system we use to try to ferret out
errors in trials?
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
25 Oct 2005 04:12:58 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:42:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<p9lql11snpkfl8mh922jbt85i77q2hkv9h@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:15:31 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<vdjql1dgjsdjnku9lg8553sntnsuiptvt2@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1ilpl1t7jver879ljp47uaocsrri96avt1@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty.
Yes, I do get it. I also get that the legal system is based on the
assumption that the result of a legal trial is legal and proper and
that result is correct within the context of that system. The
sentence procedure is also a part of the legal system and no
presumption of guilt or innocence should be made when there is a jury
verdict present.
If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
It is a very real part of our society that economic status matters. At
one time it was family, and further back it was the ability to beat
hell out of anyone who disagreed with you.
No system is perfect, especially a human social structure. And never
will be.
Then why are you so upset with the system we use to try to ferret out
errors in trials?
The only issue I have is the length of time between sentence and
execution. That makes a death sentence expensive, and that expense is
supposed to be a reason not to have the death sentence. Madness.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 AM |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:42:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<p9lql11snpkfl8mh922jbt85i77q2hkv9h@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:15:31 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<vdjql1dgjsdjnku9lg8553sntnsuiptvt2@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1ilpl1t7jver879ljp47uaocsrri96avt1@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty.
Yes, I do get it. I also get that the legal system is based on the
assumption that the result of a legal trial is legal and proper and
that result is correct within the context of that system. The
sentence procedure is also a part of the legal system and no
presumption of guilt or innocence should be made when there is a jury
verdict present.
If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
It is a very real part of our society that economic status matters. At
one time it was family, and further back it was the ability to beat
hell out of anyone who disagreed with you.
No system is perfect, especially a human social structure. And never
will be.
Then why are you so upset with the system we use to try to ferret out
errors in trials?
The only issue I have is the length of time between sentence and
execution. That makes a death sentence expensive, and that expense is
supposed to be a reason not to have the death sentence. Madness.
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 04:30:32 AM |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<s89sl15o43gmmklfrcobkpllnorg9c6tbe@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:42:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<p9lql11snpkfl8mh922jbt85i77q2hkv9h@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:15:31 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<vdjql1dgjsdjnku9lg8553sntnsuiptvt2@4ax.com>:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:46:48 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<1ilpl1t7jver879ljp47uaocsrri96avt1@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<i4dpl1d2budrh14drhc90jjp3d809rslul@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<40rnl1dcorm9rv05m4jm0r4fqkhtst60ga@4ax.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
You still don't get it. Our current system has become poorer at
convicting only those who actually committed the crime. The fact that a
jury has found someone guilty does not always assure us that this person
is guilty.
Yes, I do get it. I also get that the legal system is based on the
assumption that the result of a legal trial is legal and proper and
that result is correct within the context of that system. The
sentence procedure is also a part of the legal system and no
presumption of guilt or innocence should be made when there is a jury
verdict present.
If they happen to be poor, and particularly if they are poor
and black, they do not get adequate representation and are more likely
to be convicted even if they are innocent. That is the problem that
needs reform.
It is a very real part of our society that economic status matters. At
one time it was family, and further back it was the ability to beat
hell out of anyone who disagreed with you.
No system is perfect, especially a human social structure. And never
will be.
Then why are you so upset with the system we use to try to ferret out
errors in trials?
The only issue I have is the length of time between sentence and
execution. That makes a death sentence expensive, and that expense is
supposed to be a reason not to have the death sentence. Madness.
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
As well as more likely to be in prison. It is also a fact that those
who are poor and black are more likely to commit a crime. The facts
show that too no matter how much civil rights supporters scream about
it.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
Over 10 years?
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 08:24:43 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:30:32 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<j1jul1pvn8npejud3461b5bukvmno3ugqj@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<s89sl15o43gmmklfrcobkpllnorg9c6tbe@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
....
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
As well as more likely to be in prison. It is also a fact that those
who are poor and black are more likely to commit a crime.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were a fact, but we also know that those
who are wealthier are less likely to be charged or convicted when they
commit crimes.
The facts
show that too no matter how much civil rights supporters scream about
it.
Anatole France said it best "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids
the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the
streets, and to steal bread." (from The Red Lily, 1894)
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
Over 10 years?
It's not impressive, but many court cases take a long time. This is
nothing new. Read _Bleak House_.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 11:00:33 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:24:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<dn0vl190q54mo9d72es0ho8378opsvrq1n@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:30:32 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<j1jul1pvn8npejud3461b5bukvmno3ugqj@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<s89sl15o43gmmklfrcobkpllnorg9c6tbe@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
...
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
As well as more likely to be in prison. It is also a fact that those
who are poor and black are more likely to commit a crime.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were a fact, but we also know that those
who are wealthier are less likely to be charged or convicted when they
commit crimes.
No system is perfect, and there are a few exceptions.
The facts
show that too no matter how much civil rights supporters scream about
it.
Anatole France said it best "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids
the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the
streets, and to steal bread." (from The Red Lily, 1894)
I would prefer something said a little less than 111 years ago. A lot
changes in that time.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
Over 10 years?
It's not impressive, but many court cases take a long time. This is
nothing new. Read _Bleak House_.
Not appeals, since those are supposed to be based on either the first
trial or new evidence.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 11:54:01 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:00:33 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ns9vl1t435ui7a0pqcpdhd2hjtppog8mvg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:24:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<dn0vl190q54mo9d72es0ho8378opsvrq1n@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:30:32 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<j1jul1pvn8npejud3461b5bukvmno3ugqj@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<s89sl15o43gmmklfrcobkpllnorg9c6tbe@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
...
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
As well as more likely to be in prison. It is also a fact that those
who are poor and black are more likely to commit a crime.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were a fact, but we also know that those
who are wealthier are less likely to be charged or convicted when they
commit crimes.
No system is perfect, and there are a few exceptions.
I see your prejudice against the poor. I'll keep it in mind.
The facts
show that too no matter how much civil rights supporters scream about
it.
Anatole France said it best "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids
the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the
streets, and to steal bread." (from The Red Lily, 1894)
I would prefer something said a little less than 111 years ago. A lot
changes in that time.
I would prefer if something had changed since then.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
Over 10 years?
It's not impressive, but many court cases take a long time. This is
nothing new. Read _Bleak House_.
Not appeals, since those are supposed to be based on either the first
trial or new evidence.
Yet you are so cavalier about how bad the original trials have been, the
ones that have caused these multi-year appeal processes.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 09:21:28 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:54:01 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<52dvl1pbfoho1dlf29i8vscvi2o84ku5rp@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:00:33 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ns9vl1t435ui7a0pqcpdhd2hjtppog8mvg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:24:43 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<dn0vl190q54mo9d72es0ho8378opsvrq1n@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:30:32 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<j1jul1pvn8npejud3461b5bukvmno3ugqj@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:35:09 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<s89sl15o43gmmklfrcobkpllnorg9c6tbe@4ax.com> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:12:58 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<9ktrl1legg3emccsdtqcpn6v3i8uscnia6@4ax.com>:
...
It is a reason, but not for me the best reason. The death penalty is
discriminatory -- for the same crime it turns out that if you are poor
and black you are more likely to be given the death penalty than if you
are rich and white.
As well as more likely to be in prison. It is also a fact that those
who are poor and black are more likely to commit a crime.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were a fact, but we also know that those
who are wealthier are less likely to be charged or convicted when they
commit crimes.
No system is perfect, and there are a few exceptions.
I see your prejudice against the poor. I'll keep it in mind.
That was not an economic comment.
The facts
show that too no matter how much civil rights supporters scream about
it.
Anatole France said it best "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids
the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the
streets, and to steal bread." (from The Red Lily, 1894)
I would prefer something said a little less than 111 years ago. A lot
changes in that time.
I would prefer if something had changed since then.
It has.
Except some things are still illegal, as they should be.
Why not shorten the time period? After all, this is usually an
administrative procedure anyway.
Appeals take time. Researching prosecutorial abuse takes time. The
delays come from all directions.
Over 10 years?
It's not impressive, but many court cases take a long time. This is
nothing new. Read _Bleak House_.
Not appeals, since those are supposed to be based on either the first
trial or new evidence.
Yet you are so cavalier about how bad the original trials have been, the
ones that have caused these multi-year appeal processes.
I suspect there is more to it than that. A lot more.
Such as a hope delays of ny kind will last long enough for something
like a nutty governor commuting all death sentences or even an attempt
to eliminate the death penalty completely.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 07:37:13 AM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
Attila, the entire point of the debate is that some people are wrongly
convicted! The person I've been described her in my area, Hurricane
Carter, many, many others. Here, read this:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
They've freed 163 people who'd been wrongly convicted.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 04:10:05 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:37:13 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g6lpl1944t3pbssdan7i327ia0i0h00223@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
Attila, the entire point of the debate is that some people are wrongly
convicted! The person I've been described her in my area, Hurricane
Carter, many, many others. Here, read this:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
They've freed 163 people who'd been wrongly convicted.
Of course errors are made. The remedy is to reduce the number of
errors. Not to eliminate the sentence.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 08:29:11 PM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:10:05 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:37:13 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g6lpl1944t3pbssdan7i327ia0i0h00223@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
Attila, the entire point of the debate is that some people are wrongly
convicted! The person I've been described her in my area, Hurricane
Carter, many, many others. Here, read this:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
They've freed 163 people who'd been wrongly convicted.
Of course errors are made. The remedy is to reduce the number of
errors. Not to eliminate the sentence.
OK, how? How do we eliminate mistaken identies? How do we eliminate
overzealous prosecutors? How do we eliminate human error?
Seems to me it is easier to eliminate the one sentence we can't back
away from.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
25 Oct 2005 04:10:07 AM |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:29:11 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<hh2rl1p2j3c0kj9bq21tvc6r1ttf9nmipf@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:10:05 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:37:13 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g6lpl1944t3pbssdan7i327ia0i0h00223@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
Attila, the entire point of the debate is that some people are wrongly
convicted! The person I've been described her in my area, Hurricane
Carter, many, many others. Here, read this:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
They've freed 163 people who'd been wrongly convicted.
Of course errors are made. The remedy is to reduce the number of
errors. Not to eliminate the sentence.
OK, how? How do we eliminate mistaken identies?
National database of fingerprints or DNA. Or both. There are many
ways to uniquely ID a person.
Use physical evidence to establish identity and not just eyewitness
accounts.
How do we eliminate
overzealous prosecutors? How do we eliminate human error?
That will never happen.
Seems to me it is easier to eliminate the one sentence we can't back
away from.
I disagree.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
25 Oct 2005 09:52:49 AM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:10:07 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:29:11 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<hh2rl1p2j3c0kj9bq21tvc6r1ttf9nmipf@4ax.com> wrote:
OK, how? How do we eliminate mistaken identies?
National database of fingerprints or DNA. Or both. There are many
ways to uniquely ID a person.
We are building those. But sometimes that evidence is not present.
Use physical evidence to establish identity and not just eyewitness
accounts.
Physical evidence rarely leads to identity, despite what you see on
shows like CSI. Physical evidence establishes the circumstances of the
crime.
To show you how physical evidence can lie, consider this. I go
shooting quite often, and do my own reloads. So I pretty much always
have gunpowder residue on my hands. Now say that my wife was shot.
According to the physical evidense, I'm a suspect. After all, there
is GSR on my hands, and most of my guns have been fired recently (last
Saturday, as a matter of fact.)
There you go. In court, those facts would be quite damning. Of
course, they are taken out of context, but a good prosecutor can make
it look like I went to the range to provide an alibi.
How do we eliminate
overzealous prosecutors? How do we eliminate human error?
That will never happen.
Which is why we should not kill people. Because errors will be made.
Seems to me it is easier to eliminate the one sentence we can't back
away from.
I disagree.
You haven't given one good reason why. Studies show the death penalty
isn't a deterrent.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 04:28:04 AM |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:52:49 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<mbhsl1ddrp25v9bluksothbgflq6895227@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:10:07 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:29:11 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<hh2rl1p2j3c0kj9bq21tvc6r1ttf9nmipf@4ax.com> wrote:
OK, how? How do we eliminate mistaken identies?
National database of fingerprints or DNA. Or both. There are many
ways to uniquely ID a person.
We are building those. But sometimes that evidence is not present.
True. In that case other evidence is used. There was enough to
convince 12 people.
Use physical evidence to establish identity and not just eyewitness
accounts.
Physical evidence rarely leads to identity, despite what you see on
shows like CSI. Physical evidence establishes the circumstances of the
crime.
And can identify anyone involved.
To show you how physical evidence can lie, consider this. I go
shooting quite often, and do my own reloads. So I pretty much always
have gunpowder residue on my hands. Now say that my wife was shot.
According to the physical evidense, I'm a suspect. After all, there
is GSR on my hands, and most of my guns have been fired recently (last
Saturday, as a matter of fact.)
But since you can prove you are active with guns and reloading
equipment and if you could prove you had been so involved recently
that would be a valid basis for not using GSR results in your case.
Those results would not isolate a particular action.
That would not hold true of your neighbor who does not own a gun and
cannot prove he has ever fired one.
There you go. In court, those facts would be quite damning. Of
course, they are taken out of context, but a good prosecutor can make
it look like I went to the range to provide an alibi.
And a defense attorney can show an alternative version. That is what
they do.
How do we eliminate
overzealous prosecutors? How do we eliminate human error?
That will never happen.
Which is why we should not kill people. Because errors will be made.
Life is not fair.
Seems to me it is easier to eliminate the one sentence we can't back
away from.
I disagree.
You haven't given one good reason why. Studies show the death penalty
isn't a deterrent.
I disagree.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 06:47:48 PM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:28:04 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:52:49 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<mbhsl1ddrp25v9bluksothbgflq6895227@4ax.com> wrote:
We are building those. But sometimes that evidence is not present.
True. In that case other evidence is used. There was enough to
convince 12 people.
Who, as you admit, make mistakes.
Use physical evidence to establish identity and not just eyewitness
accounts.
Physical evidence rarely leads to identity, despite what you see on
shows like CSI. Physical evidence establishes the circumstances of the
crime.
And can identify anyone involved.
Did you actually read what I just wrote? Not always!
To show you how physical evidence can lie, consider this. I go
shooting quite often, and do my own reloads. So I pretty much always
have gunpowder residue on my hands. Now say that my wife was shot.
According to the physical evidense, I'm a suspect. After all, there
is GSR on my hands, and most of my guns have been fired recently (last
Saturday, as a matter of fact.)
But since you can prove you are active with guns and reloading
equipment and if you could prove you had been so involved recently
that would be a valid basis for not using GSR results in your case.
Those results would not isolate a particular action.
Never hung out with lawyers, I see.
He would introduce evidence that when tested, there was GSR on my
hands. My attorney could introduce evidence that I shot often, but
the seed will have been planted.
That would not hold true of your neighbor who does not own a gun and
cannot prove he has ever fired one.
Unless my neighbor had a motive, I doubt the police would even look at
him.
There you go. In court, those facts would be quite damning. Of
course, they are taken out of context, but a good prosecutor can make
it look like I went to the range to provide an alibi.
And a defense attorney can show an alternative version. That is what
they do.
Which you wish to cut short by gutting the appeals process.
Which is why we should not kill people. Because errors will be made.
Life is not fair.
You say this like it excuses killing people who were wrongly
convicted! Yes, life isn't fair. Ask any Giants fan who sat through
Game 6 of the 2002 series about that. But the nice thing about being
human us we can work to make things a bit better. And not killing
people when there is the slimmest chance that they aren't guilty is
one way to do that.
You haven't given one good reason why. Studies show the death penalty
isn't a deterrent.
I disagree.
You disagree with dozens of studies? Why?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 09:15:14 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:47:48 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<b150m1hs4s8vqqqp1n8d36h5p1ptr40jab@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:28:04 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:52:49 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<mbhsl1ddrp25v9bluksothbgflq6895227@4ax.com> wrote:
We are building those. But sometimes that evidence is not present.
True. In that case other evidence is used. There was enough to
convince 12 people.
Who, as you admit, make mistakes.
Use physical evidence to establish identity and not just eyewitness
accounts.
Physical evidence rarely leads to identity, despite what you see on
shows like CSI. Physical evidence establishes the circumstances of the
crime.
And can identify anyone involved.
Did you actually read what I just wrote? Not always!
You point was that TV is not realistic. In real life if there is a
trial the identity of the accused is usually established in a variety
of ways. Eyewitness account is seldom sufficient to even go to trial.
To show you how physical evidence can lie, consider this. I go
shooting quite often, and do my own reloads. So I pretty much always
have gunpowder residue on my hands. Now say that my wife was shot.
According to the physical evidense, I'm a suspect. After all, there
is GSR on my hands, and most of my guns have been fired recently (last
Saturday, as a matter of fact.)
But since you can prove you are active with guns and reloading
equipment and if you could prove you had been so involved recently
that would be a valid basis for not using GSR results in your case.
Those results would not isolate a particular action.
Never hung out with lawyers, I see.
I know a defense lawyer will try anything. I would hope the
prosecution would be a little more intelligent.
He would introduce evidence that when tested, there was GSR on my
hands. My attorney could introduce evidence that I shot often, but
the seed will have been planted.
And die from lack of further nourishment.
That would not hold true of your neighbor who does not own a gun and
cannot prove he has ever fired one.
Unless my neighbor had a motive, I doubt the police would even look at
him.
That was an example. Substitute anyone you like for 'neighbor' if
that will help.
There you go. In court, those facts would be quite damning. Of
course, they are taken out of context, but a good prosecutor can make
it look like I went to the range to provide an alibi.
And a defense attorney can show an alternative version. That is what
they do.
Which you wish to cut short by gutting the appeals process.
That is not done in an appeal. It is done at trial.
Which is why we should not kill people. Because errors will be made.
Life is not fair.
You say this like it excuses killing people who were wrongly
convicted! Yes, life isn't fair. Ask any Giants fan who sat through
Game 6 of the 2002 series about that. But the nice thing about being
human us we can work to make things a bit better. And not killing
people when there is the slimmest chance that they aren't guilty is
one way to do that.
The same argument can be used for prison. After all, there is no way
to give back the time spent is there?
You haven't given one good reason why. Studies show the death penalty
isn't a deterrent.
I disagree.
You disagree with dozens of studies? Why?
Logic tells me not one single executed person has ever committed
another crime or incurred any additional expense. Would you disagree?
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
24 Oct 2005 09:42:55 PM |
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On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:29:11 GMT, in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
<hh2rl1p2j3c0kj9bq21tvc6r1ttf9nmipf@4ax.com>:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:10:05 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:37:13 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g6lpl1944t3pbssdan7i327ia0i0h00223@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:17:30 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
None, of course. All executions should be done on convicted and thus
guilty parties only.
Attila, the entire point of the debate is that some people are wrongly
convicted! The person I've been described her in my area, Hurricane
Carter, many, many others. Here, read this:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
They've freed 163 people who'd been wrongly convicted.
Of course errors are made. The remedy is to reduce the number of
errors. Not to eliminate the sentence.
OK, how? How do we eliminate mistaken identies? How do we eliminate
overzealous prosecutors? How do we eliminate human error?
Remember, he wants to do it while he cuts back on appeals.
Seems to me it is easier to eliminate the one sentence we can't back
away from.
Bloodlust.
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| User: "Pauline Barclay" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
23 Oct 2005 05:36:33 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:05:37 GMT, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On the auspictious date of Sun, 23 Oct 2005 15:45:58 -0400, Attila
said unto the multitude in message-id
<k1qnl1h2tsa7jtalijg6k8g5n2bubq2lfp@4ax.com>:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<ip2nl11oi0kjn6todah0lgfinqiv7fql8j@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
I don't know how many survive but I would expect the number to be low
if it's done correctly.
... I would have thought that from context it's clear that I'm asking
you how many innocent people you think its acceptable to execute a
year.
What you need to understand is that Attila doesn't give a *****!
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| User: "Paul Erickson" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
23 Oct 2005 04:39:57 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:17:01 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:01:11 -0400 in alt.atheism, Attila (Attila
<prochoice@here.now>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:50:59 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g8cll1l34r932h7va6o1p90saeham39nmc@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:14:22 -0400 in alt.atheism, Attila (Attila
<prochoice@here.now>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:18:24 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<mg0ll11t1gk36b0k0qqmine5c50bublm07@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:01:24 -0500 in alt.atheism, David Jensen
(David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:48:24 -0500, in alt.atheism
Asmodeus <bondcATrightwingnationDOTcom> wrote in
<Xns96F78C7452FA3bondcrightwingnation@216.196.97.142>:
David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in
news:n2tkl1pqts54ti6l0kgrdvrr9839p3o5e5@4ax.com:
Killed, murder includes a state of mind.
So you want to let her go, and to hell with the three murdered
children. Justice is justice. She deserves the death penalty,
no matter how many "disabilities" she has.
Justice is justice. You are not advocating justice. You cannot name a
single jurisdiction in any developed country that would allow the
execution of a person who is clearly not responsible for their actions.
Aside: Countries with the death penalty:
Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe
I am glad the US is still on the list.
Well, I suppose the company is, erm, elevating. Still that said, I
suppose that while you might feel that the death penalty is
appropriate for some kinds of crime, it is rather a shame that you
apparently consider the state of US society to be such that you find
yourself taking pleasure in that rather final solution. I can see that
someone might argue that the death penalty is a "regrettable necessity
under the circumstances," etc- but "glad" really doesn't strike me as
an appropriate term.
I don't know of a single executed person who has ever killed or hurt
someone else. Do you?
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
If we execute everyone, there will be no more crime -- a perfect
society.
Don't you agree, Atilla?
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
25 Oct 2005 04:17:27 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:39:57 -0500, Paul Erickson
<prerickson@houston.rr.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<7o0ol1hpgulnch1p0pl52ah4jm7kcna25u@4ax.com> wrote:
No. Similarly I know of no person who was executed and subsequently
shown to be innocent who's gone on to any crime of any description, or
indeed to accomplish anything at all. Perhaps you could tell me what
you consider the acceptable execution error rate to be.
If we execute everyone, there will be no more crime -- a perfect
society.
Don't you agree, Atilla?
No. It has been shown many times that using execution as the only
punishment is detrimental to society. For example, if someone commits
robbery they may not use a weapon since they know their sentence would
be less if they were caught. Under a single sentence system they
would simply kill all their victims to reduce the chance of being
caught since they would have nothing to lose anyway.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
23 Oct 2005 09:07:56 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:01:11 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<cquml1pmetkknpt409njnj7eli8u6p7j3n@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:50:59 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<g8cll1l34r932h7va6o1p90saeham39nmc@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:14:22 -0400 in alt.atheism, Attila (Attila
<prochoice@here.now>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:18:24 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<mg0ll11t1gk36b0k0qqmine5c50bublm07@4ax.com> wrote:
....
Well, I suppose the company is, erm, elevating. Still that said, I
suppose that while you might feel that the death penalty is
appropriate for some kinds of crime, it is rather a shame that you
apparently consider the state of US society to | |
