Religions > Atheism > Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
20 Oct 2005 11:27:02 PM |
| Object: |
Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
This woman should claim that she was only exercising her "right to choose"
and have the ACLU represent her in court.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/12955752.htm
Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay
SAN FRANCISCO - A mentally ill woman seen dropping her three sons into San
Francisco Bay from a downtown pier was charged with three counts of murder
Thursday while anguished relatives kept vigil and rescuers combed the chilly
water for the bodies of two of the victims.
Lashuan T. Harris, 23, of Oakland, was held in a hospital jail ward after
police saw her pushing an empty baby stroller away from the pier where a
witness reported spotting a woman drop the children off the end Wednesday
night.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
.
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| User: "osprey" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 08:36:09 AM |
|
|
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in prison?
.
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| User: "Pauline Barclay" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 08:58:55 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:36:09 -0400, "osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com>
wrote:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in prison?
I'd imagine it costs the same keeping you in the prison system.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 08:49:01 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:36:09 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<YaednUqH2tamGMLeRVn-vg@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in prison?
It depends on the state.
"In Fiscal Year 2004 (July 1, 2003 - June 30, 2004), SCDC expended
$281.5 million in state appropriated funds, for a per inmate cost of
$12,170 per year ($33.25 per day)."
<http://www.doc.sc.gov/FAQs/FAQs.html>
South Carolina is at the low end.
"California is home to the largest and most expensive state prison
system in the country, housing 164,000 inmates at a cost of about
$33,470 per inmate per year in 2004-05."
<http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/05/13/sections/region_state/region_state/article_518371.php>
California is at the high end.
.
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| User: "osprey" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 04:21:58 AM |
|
|
David Jensen wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:36:09 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<YaednUqH2tamGMLeRVn-vg@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in prison?
It depends on the state.
"In Fiscal Year 2004 (July 1, 2003 - June 30, 2004), SCDC expended
$281.5 million in state appropriated funds, for a per inmate cost of
$12,170 per year ($33.25 per day)."
<http://www.doc.sc.gov/FAQs/FAQs.html>
South Carolina is at the low end.
"California is home to the largest and most expensive state prison
system in the country, housing 164,000 inmates at a cost of about
$33,470 per inmate per year in 2004-05."
<http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/05/13/sections/region_state/region_state/article_518371.php>
California is at the high end.
Good research, for the record in Delaware it averages close to $30,000
per inmate per year.
Let's use California's figures.
An inmate who serves from today until 2035, tax payers will have paid
over 1 million for just that one inmate.
How much does it cost to execute?
I am not going to argue for or against the death penalty. I have seen
much more on this issue than anyone else in this newsgroup and I am
biased towards this issue. I think that if we are going to continue
having the death penalty there needs to be changes made and certain
requirements need to be met in future trials if the death penalty is
being seeked.
I can certainly understand and sympathize with arguments from both
sides; however, with my experience working with death row inmates and
seeing the reaction from both sides my opinion is too biased.
Let me say this to all those who think that an inmate dying by lethal
injection is too easy on that inmate. Yes, I hear this argument often
that they should suffer more or die by a more violent means.
There is no other way I can possibly think of for a worse way a person
could die, than to know the day, hour, and minute one would die. I
have watched at least three inmates meet their fate and watch that
second hand on the clock ticking. The look in their eyes is sheer
terror and they are extremely dangerous individuals to both staff and
other inmates when it comes down to just a few months left. It doesn't
matter what method is used..just knowing the day, hour, and minute is
the worse way I could imagine one could die.
One other note: If we are going to have the death penalty not only do I
think DNA evidence should be a requirement but I also think that the
victims family members should have a say in the issue. After all, they
are the ones who are suffering. Why allow just the jury to decide life
or death?
Also, don't forget the other victims. The person who is on death row
has family suffering as well.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 10:44:05 AM |
|
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On 27 Oct 2005 02:21:58 -0700, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<1130404918.136436.240340@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
David Jensen wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:36:09 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<YaednUqH2tamGMLeRVn-vg@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in prison?
It depends on the state.
"In Fiscal Year 2004 (July 1, 2003 - June 30, 2004), SCDC expended
$281.5 million in state appropriated funds, for a per inmate cost of
$12,170 per year ($33.25 per day)."
<http://www.doc.sc.gov/FAQs/FAQs.html>
South Carolina is at the low end.
"California is home to the largest and most expensive state prison
system in the country, housing 164,000 inmates at a cost of about
$33,470 per inmate per year in 2004-05."
<http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/05/13/sections/region_state/region_state/article_518371.php>
California is at the high end.
Good research, for the record in Delaware it averages close to $30,000
per inmate per year.
Let's use California's figures.
An inmate who serves from today until 2035, tax payers will have paid
over 1 million for just that one inmate.
How much does it cost to execute?
That seems to be much harder to find, but I have seen numbers in the
range of $500,000 to a million. I've not run across numbers that strike
me as extremely reliable. States like Texas, which seem not to care if
they execute innocent people, appear to have lower costs.
I am not going to argue for or against the death penalty. I have seen
much more on this issue than anyone else in this newsgroup and I am
biased towards this issue. I think that if we are going to continue
having the death penalty there needs to be changes made and certain
requirements need to be met in future trials if the death penalty is
being seeked.
That is the minimum necessary.
I can certainly understand and sympathize with arguments from both
sides; however, with my experience working with death row inmates and
seeing the reaction from both sides my opinion is too biased.
Let me say this to all those who think that an inmate dying by lethal
injection is too easy on that inmate. Yes, I hear this argument often
that they should suffer more or die by a more violent means.
It is one of the more revolting ones to me.
There is no other way I can possibly think of for a worse way a person
could die, than to know the day, hour, and minute one would die. I
have watched at least three inmates meet their fate and watch that
second hand on the clock ticking. The look in their eyes is sheer
terror and they are extremely dangerous individuals to both staff and
other inmates when it comes down to just a few months left. It doesn't
matter what method is used..just knowing the day, hour, and minute is
the worse way I could imagine one could die.
One other note: If we are going to have the death penalty not only do I
think DNA evidence should be a requirement but I also think that the
victims family members should have a say in the issue. After all, they
are the ones who are suffering. Why allow just the jury to decide life
or death?
Also, don't forget the other victims. The person who is on death row
has family suffering as well.
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
.
|
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| User: "osprey" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 11:23:07 AM |
|
|
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
On 27 Oct 2005 02:21:58 -0700, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<1130404918.136436.240340@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
David Jensen wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:36:09 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<YaednUqH2tamGMLeRVn-vg@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the
death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
How much does it cost on average annually, to keep one inmate in
prison?
It depends on the state.
"In Fiscal Year 2004 (July 1, 2003 - June 30, 2004), SCDC expended
$281.5 million in state appropriated funds, for a per inmate cost of
$12,170 per year ($33.25 per day)."
<http://www.doc.sc.gov/FAQs/FAQs.html>
South Carolina is at the low end.
"California is home to the largest and most expensive state prison
system in the country, housing 164,000 inmates at a cost of about
$33,470 per inmate per year in 2004-05."
<http://www.ocregister.com/ocr/2005/05/13/sections/region_state/region_state/article_518371.php>
California is at the high end.
Good research, for the record in Delaware it averages close to $30,000
per inmate per year.
Let's use California's figures.
An inmate who serves from today until 2035, tax payers will have paid
over 1 million for just that one inmate.
How much does it cost to execute?
That seems to be much harder to find, but I have seen numbers in the
range of $500,000 to a million. I've not run across numbers that strike
me as extremely reliable. States like Texas, which seem not to care if
they execute innocent people, appear to have lower costs.
I am not going to argue for or against the death penalty. I have seen
much more on this issue than anyone else in this newsgroup and I am
biased towards this issue. I think that if we are going to continue
having the death penalty there needs to be changes made and certain
requirements need to be met in future trials if the death penalty is
being seeked.
That is the minimum necessary.
I can certainly understand and sympathize with arguments from both
sides; however, with my experience working with death row inmates and
seeing the reaction from both sides my opinion is too biased.
Let me say this to all those who think that an inmate dying by lethal
injection is too easy on that inmate. Yes, I hear this argument often
that they should suffer more or die by a more violent means.
It is one of the more revolting ones to me.
There is no other way I can possibly think of for a worse way a person
could die, than to know the day, hour, and minute one would die. I
have watched at least three inmates meet their fate and watch that
second hand on the clock ticking. The look in their eyes is sheer
terror and they are extremely dangerous individuals to both staff and
other inmates when it comes down to just a few months left. It doesn't
matter what method is used..just knowing the day, hour, and minute is
the worse way I could imagine one could die.
One other note: If we are going to have the death penalty not only do I
think DNA evidence should be a requirement but I also think that the
victims family members should have a say in the issue. After all, they
are the ones who are suffering. Why allow just the jury to decide life
or death?
Also, don't forget the other victims. The person who is on death row
has family suffering as well.
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 11:49:58 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:23:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<KuidnZWgpe0hYP3eRVn-vQ@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
....
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
I think we do agree. Thanks for the pointer to the Key program.
.
|
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| User: "osprey" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 12:20:07 PM |
|
|
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:c812m195erpnf4q9g0nlg5rjnpa7vd5715@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:23:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<KuidnZWgpe0hYP3eRVn-vQ@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
...
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never
be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't
the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware
called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it
isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
I think we do agree. Thanks for the pointer to the Key program.
Not a problem, it's the program I work with now. Key South, located in
Georgetown De.
For a college class I took with Community Corrections it was my research
project.
It's a shame that it's money that decides if we are going to actually
rehabilitate or not. We know what works, we know what doesn't. What works,
takes money. And politicians don't like letting the money go for programs
like that..it's not as popular with the voters.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 12:51:47 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:20:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<M7adnaOnsMGXlvzeRVn-tA@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:c812m195erpnf4q9g0nlg5rjnpa7vd5715@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:23:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<KuidnZWgpe0hYP3eRVn-vQ@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
...
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never
be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't
the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware
called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it
isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
I think we do agree. Thanks for the pointer to the Key program.
Not a problem, it's the program I work with now. Key South, located in
Georgetown De.
For a college class I took with Community Corrections it was my research
project.
It's a shame that it's money that decides if we are going to actually
rehabilitate or not. We know what works, we know what doesn't. What works,
takes money. And politicians don't like letting the money go for programs
like that..it's not as popular with the voters.
Yes, and getting it right, and saving money in the long run takes money
today, but tax allergies have become so politically popular that we
don't have any politicians saying that they will spend more today to
save costs and wasted lives in the future.
.
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| User: "osprey" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 01:35:00 PM |
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"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:ko42m15argjbvnbtgg8605omk68jqgdjgb@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:20:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<M7adnaOnsMGXlvzeRVn-tA@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:c812m195erpnf4q9g0nlg5rjnpa7vd5715@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:23:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<KuidnZWgpe0hYP3eRVn-vQ@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
...
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never
be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't
the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware
called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it
isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
I think we do agree. Thanks for the pointer to the Key program.
Not a problem, it's the program I work with now. Key South, located in
Georgetown De.
For a college class I took with Community Corrections it was my research
project.
It's a shame that it's money that decides if we are going to actually
rehabilitate or not. We know what works, we know what doesn't. What
works,
takes money. And politicians don't like letting the money go for programs
like that..it's not as popular with the voters.
Yes, and getting it right, and saving money in the long run takes money
today, but tax allergies have become so politically popular that we
don't have any politicians saying that they will spend more today to
save costs and wasted lives in the future.
Here is one of the questions many pose to politicians and the tax payers,
but nobody seems to get it.
Would we rather spend the money NOW on doing what's necessary in
rehabilitating young juvenile offenders or do we wish to spend probably
several times as much keeping them in prison or going through the revolving
door in our criminal justice system later?
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 01:58:06 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:35:00 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<V-Wdnffv9qxQgfzeRVn-pw@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:ko42m15argjbvnbtgg8605omk68jqgdjgb@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:20:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<M7adnaOnsMGXlvzeRVn-tA@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:c812m195erpnf4q9g0nlg5rjnpa7vd5715@4ax.com...
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:23:07 -0400, in alt.atheism
"osprey" <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote in
<KuidnZWgpe0hYP3eRVn-vQ@comcast.com>:
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote in message
news:s5t1m1l1v5n0197q5rlfrmemp8u1o33mqh@4ax.com...
...
The huge number of incarcerated young poor men is quite destructive to
many poor urban neighborhoods, as well. Prisons and poverty feed each
other.
No, I disagree. We are not addressing the problems that cause crime and
there are to many different reasons why we have crime. Crime will never
be
stopped. Prison's are supposed to be rehabilitating offenders. It isn't
the
prisons fault, it's the after care that ex-inmates do NOT receive after
their term.
One of the most SUCCESSFUL programs was a program started in Delaware
called
the Key Program. Due to funding, which always seems to be the case, it
isn't
what it once was.
Do some research on the Key program in Delaware and see why it was so
successful.
Rehabilitation doesn't end at the prisons..that's the problem.
I think we do agree. Thanks for the pointer to the Key program.
Not a problem, it's the program I work with now. Key South, located in
Georgetown De.
For a college class I took with Community Corrections it was my research
project.
It's a shame that it's money that decides if we are going to actually
rehabilitate or not. We know what works, we know what doesn't. What
works,
takes money. And politicians don't like letting the money go for programs
like that..it's not as popular with the voters.
Yes, and getting it right, and saving money in the long run takes money
today, but tax allergies have become so politically popular that we
don't have any politicians saying that they will spend more today to
save costs and wasted lives in the future.
Here is one of the questions many pose to politicians and the tax payers,
but nobody seems to get it.
Would we rather spend the money NOW on doing what's necessary in
rehabilitating young juvenile offenders or do we wish to spend probably
several times as much keeping them in prison or going through the revolving
door in our criminal justice system later?
The deafening sound of "cut taxes, cut taxes" mindlessly repeated
appears to destroy the hearing and backbone of politicians.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 08:20:21 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 AM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 03:12:48 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 03:29:25 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:12:48 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<05d2m1lgq7it2s3mjq1jht28s947878ae0@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
Only if the result of the trial is just.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 05:28:24 PM |
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|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:29:25 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<o4e2m1pv8fm4ll6006poa809hurpgb0he3@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:12:48 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<05d2m1lgq7it2s3mjq1jht28s947878ae0@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
Only if the result of the trial is just.
It is presumed to be just.
.
|
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 07:19:18 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:28:24 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<63l2m1luejt0htft6jsapjvtr1shut62er@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:29:25 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<o4e2m1pv8fm4ll6006poa809hurpgb0he3@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:12:48 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<05d2m1lgq7it2s3mjq1jht28s947878ae0@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
Only if the result of the trial is just.
It is presumed to be just.
Not when it is known to be unjust.
.
|
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| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 09:44:29 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:19:18 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<pjr2m1dpj3qvqeffq2catqhnpot5dlrmm5@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:28:24 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<63l2m1luejt0htft6jsapjvtr1shut62er@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:29:25 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<o4e2m1pv8fm4ll6006poa809hurpgb0he3@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:12:48 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<05d2m1lgq7it2s3mjq1jht28s947878ae0@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
Only if the result of the trial is just.
It is presumed to be just.
Not when it is known to be unjust.
If it is known to be unjust it should be fixed immediately.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 10:10:25 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:44:29 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<g343m19do2jphb5456cib6ddnrund3u338@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 19:19:18 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<pjr2m1dpj3qvqeffq2catqhnpot5dlrmm5@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 18:28:24 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<63l2m1luejt0htft6jsapjvtr1shut62er@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:29:25 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<o4e2m1pv8fm4ll6006poa809hurpgb0he3@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 16:12:48 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<05d2m1lgq7it2s3mjq1jht28s947878ae0@4ax.com>:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:46:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<2it1m1djmt9na7e8av1gs5vogu9osprvei@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:20:21 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<ktk1m1d4s8nbir5n1ab3g4rcq99sfikba7@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
I can do nothing about it. After all, people are killed in autos
every day yet it is possible to eliminate every one of these deaths.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the expense of a long and drawn out appeals process.
That must go.
You may not care about justice, but the courts do.
Carrying out the sentence imposed by a court is justice.
Only if the result of the trial is just.
It is presumed to be just.
Not when it is known to be unjust.
If it is known to be unjust it should be fixed immediately.
Our states refuse to spend enough on legal aid to improve the likelihood
of justice.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
28 Oct 2005 12:58:17 PM |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:10:25 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<5k53m19udg1jua2735aduchtse08iimkj1@4ax.com> wrote:
If it is known to be unjust it should be fixed immediately.
Our states refuse to spend enough on legal aid to improve the likelihood
of justice.
Then people should be elected who will do that. However, I agree with
a limit on government aid of any kind.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
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| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 10:36:56 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
Nothing reasonable can be done about it.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the appeals process. Why would there be a difference
in cost between someone who is sentenced to and serves 10 years in
prison and someone who is sentenced to death and spends the next 10
years in appeals? At the end of the tie they have spent the same
amount of time. Why do they not have the same costs?
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
26 Oct 2005 11:37:15 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:56 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<uf8vl1pog1mr0od7i4mglvckgvnohpd7sg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
Nothing reasonable can be done about it.
It's perfectly reasonable not to execute criminals for that reason
alone. It would be even better if we offered real, effective counsel to
all who have been accused.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the appeals process. Why would there be a difference
in cost between someone who is sentenced to and serves 10 years in
prison and someone who is sentenced to death and spends the next 10
years in appeals? At the end of the tie they have spent the same
amount of time. Why do they not have the same costs?
Because our government is less concerned about injustice done to those
who have been convicted of crimes for which they will not be executed.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 08:23:43 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:15 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<f2cvl1133gkq41h589h7lvb2jtfco1clr8@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:56 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<uf8vl1pog1mr0od7i4mglvckgvnohpd7sg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
Nothing reasonable can be done about it.
It's perfectly reasonable not to execute criminals for that reason
alone.
I disagree. Life contains risks, nd this is simply one of them.
It would be even better if we offered real, effective counsel to
all who have been accused.
What kind of counsel can undo what someone has done? If they are
innocent they don't need it and if they are guilty it is useless.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the appeals process. Why would there be a difference
in cost between someone who is sentenced to and serves 10 years in
prison and someone who is sentenced to death and spends the next 10
years in appeals? At the end of the tie they have spent the same
amount of time. Why do they not have the same costs?
Because our government is less concerned about injustice done to those
who have been convicted of crimes for which they will not be executed.
Or because the average prisoner does not inundate the courts with
appeal after appeal all at taxpayer expense.
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 10:45:49 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:23:43 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<q1l1m15hue1fi1o2tgkgi4tv3boufnrb5v@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:15 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<f2cvl1133gkq41h589h7lvb2jtfco1clr8@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:56 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<uf8vl1pog1mr0od7i4mglvckgvnohpd7sg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0400 iin
alt.atheism?
No system is perfect. I do not agree the elimination of the death
penalty would result in an improvement.
Well, we'd be sure not to kill an innocent person... you don't
consider that an improvement?
Everything in life carries risk. Including this.
That's not an answer. We have two options:
1. Executions, which cannot be called back if the person executed is
later proven innocent, or
I admit there can be error. Nothing is perfect and life is not fair.
But you don't care.
Nothing reasonable can be done about it.
It's perfectly reasonable not to execute criminals for that reason
alone.
I disagree. Life contains risks, nd this is simply one of them.
This is an avoidable risk. Executions are not required.
It would be even better if we offered real, effective counsel to
all who have been accused.
What kind of counsel can undo what someone has done? If they are
innocent they don't need it and if they are guilty it is useless.
Ha! What a lie. Innocent people are often convicted and you know that.
2. Imprisonment, which we can revoke if the prisoner is found to be
innocent of what he was charged with in the first place.
Too expensive, there is the possibility of escape or the killing of
another prisoner, and the lack of deterrence execution would bring.
If expense is what matters to you, life imprisonment is cheaper.
Only because of the appeals process. Why would there be a difference
in cost between someone who is sentenced to and serves 10 years in
prison and someone who is sentenced to death and spends the next 10
years in appeals? At the end of the tie they have spent the same
amount of time. Why do they not have the same costs?
Because our government is less concerned about injustice done to those
who have been convicted of crimes for which they will not be executed.
Or because the average prisoner does not inundate the courts with
appeal after appeal all at taxpayer expense.
Then taxpayers should deal with the fact that they aren't getting a fair
trial in the first place.
.
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| User: "Attila" |
|
| Title: Re: Mom charged with murder after allegedly throwing kids into SF Bay |
27 Oct 2005 03:11:58 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:45:49 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<het1m111c3vllg259tbpcl1h6klio44qh5@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:23:43 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<q1l1m15hue1fi1o2tgkgi4tv3boufnrb5v@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:37:15 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<f2cvl1133gkq41h589h7lvb2jtfco1clr8@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:56 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<uf8vl1pog1mr0od7i4mglvckgvnohpd7sg@4ax.com>:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:35:32 -0500, David Jensen
<david@dajensen-family.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<kvtul1dsotaq6ig8cakqec110ka6bijtis@4ax.com> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:06:28 -0400, in alt.atheism
Attila <prochoice@here.now> wrote in
<elhul112te1t2uj37vvql4539n5kdt0ijh@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:45:56 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<n6hsl1hnopecql6p96rpfdugmf4kv0bq1g@4ax.com> wrote:
What's so funny about peace, love and Attila <prochoice@here.now>
posting the following on Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:53:06 -0 | | | | | | |
