Moore ignites new multicultural vision

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Jd"
Date:	19 Aug 2003 06:07:55 PM
Object:	Moore ignites new multicultural vision

This will come as quite a shock to leftists everywhere. Over 1000
Orthodox Rabbis, as well as representatives from the black
community such as Alan Keyes and T.D. Jakes, voiced support along
with an estimated 10,000 folks who showed up at the Ten
Commandments Rally in Montgomery Alabama.... for Judge Roy Moore
and his stand on the Ten Commandments. Interestingly, 35
atheists also showed up to protest.
At any rate, leftists everywhere will only be making fools of
themselves as they try to portray God-fearin' American Christians
(especially Alabamians) as racists, or neo-nazis, white
supremists or something even worse.
Yeah, they may whine, moan, and sling vile accusations, mock etc.
.... but it's all a hoax on their part. Especially now that their
absolute hypocrisy has been revealed. Think of it... blacks, Jews
and whites standing together in unity. Wasn't their dream a
"multicultural" America? Yes, but it was a hoax. A hoax to
pander support from all the various minorities merely for the
purpose of enslaving them by encouraging "sin".
Perhaps Jews and Blacks from across the nation and portions of
Canada joining in with us Alabamians was just the thing needed to
reveal their devious plots to undermine Americas moral foundation
and their actual hatred for true multicultural unity (especially
the "One nation, under God" type of multicultural).
Honestly, I'm not noted for being a "multicultural" type guy as a
few here can attest. Have I changed? Of course not. If the
fruit's good, the tree is also.
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." - Jesus
A spokesman (Rabbi Yehuda Levin) for one of the two major
Rabbinical organizations which support Judge Moore, joined in an
Alabama talk radio show today and further explained how
conservative Jews have found themselves in a similar position as
that of conservative Christians WRT the leftists agenda for an
immoral America. He was the same Rabbi that went to Montgomery
(from New York) to show support for Judge Moore. He actually
made alot of sense. I even e-mailed him a thank-you note for
his efforts.
Here's the release which voices the support of over 1000 Jewish
Rabbis.... for Judge Moore's cause:
THE UNION OF ORTHODOX RABBIS
OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA
and
THE RABBINICAL ALLIANCE OF AMERICA
August 15, 2003 / for immediate release
CONTACT: RABBI YEHUDA LEVIN 718-469-6999
TWO MAJOR RABBINICAL GROUPS SUPPORT
"TEN COMMANDMENTS" JUDGE ROY MOORE
Two major Rabbinical organizations, representing over 1000
Orthodox Rabbis, today declared their support for Alabama Chief
Judge Roy Moore in his battle to keep the Ten Commandments on
display in the Supreme Court building in Montgomery, Alabama.
Lawyer groups, led by the ACLU, have demanded that Judge Moore
remove the display, citing church-state concerns; and Federal
Judge Myron Thompson has given Judge Moore a deadline of August
20 to remove the display. But Judge Moore is refusing to be
intimidated.
Rabbi Hirsch Ginsberg of the Union of Orthodox Rabbis said: "The
Ten Commandments are the basis of civilized society and the rule
of law. It is no accident that legal testimony begins with
swearing to tell the whole truth, while holding a Bible. Here, in
New York City, many courtrooms have a plaque on the wall, right
above the judge's head, proclaiming 'In G-D we trust'."
Rabbi Abraham Hecht of the Rabbinical Alliance added: "It's no
surprise that the ACLU, a radical left-wing organization of
ambulance-chasing rip-off artists, should object to the Ten
Commandments. The Biblical injunctions against lying, stealing,
and adultery must make them feel terribly uncomfortable."
Rabbi Yehuda Levin who is representing the two Rabbinical groups
in Montgomery, Alabama this week, commented on a nasty New York
Times editorial that referred to Judge Moore as a demagogue:
"This is the worst kind of savage yellow journalism. The New York
Times has lately been rocked by scandals, in which it has been
revealed that senior reporters and editorial staff have knowingly
fabricated stories and distorted the news. They have some nerve
criticizing a moral, intelligent, and courageous man like Chief
Judge Moore."
Rabbi Levin will hold a press conference on the steps of the
Alabama Statehouse in Montgomery on
Friday, August 15, 2003, at 10:00 a.m.
After the press conference, Rabbi Levin is to meet with Chief
Judge Moore to make a presentation to him on behalf of the Union
of Orthodox Rabbis and the Rabbinical Alliance.
http://www.jewsformorality.org/aaaw090.htm
-----------------EOF-----------------
"Police would not estimate the size of the crowd, which appeared
to be several thousand people, possibly as many as 10,000.
Falwell said Moore is right to defy Thompson's order if he
believes he is obeying God. "Civil disobedience is the right of
all men when we believe breaking man's law is needed to preserve
God's law," Falwell said.
Evelyn Bradley of Norwalk, California, said she made the trip
because "the Ten Commandments is the most precious and most
important thing in my life right now." "No judge has the right to
tell us we can't post them," said Bradley, 73.
After the rally hundreds of people walked several blocks to the
judicial building, where they lined up to view the monument
inside. Some debated with about 35 atheists holding a counter
protest across the street.
"Personally I believe in science and reason and the only way you
can have freedom of religion is to have separation of church and
state," said Todd Kinley, a research scientist from Huntsville
participating in the counter protest."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/16/ten.commandments.ap/index.html
-------------------EOF-------------------
Jewish Leaders Rally Around Chief Justice
Ten Commandments Fight Heads To U.S. Supreme Court
POSTED: 4:49 p.m. CDT August 15, 2003
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- The fight to keep a Ten Commandments monument
in the Alabama's Judicial Building is winning wider support as
religious leaders rallied with Chief Justice Roy Moore Friday.
"Moore appeared with orthodox Jewish rabbis in Montgomery who
support efforts to keep the monument in the state Supreme Court
building. "If our country does not return to the Biblical values
and standards on which it was founded, who knows what could
happen to us?" Rabbi Yehuda Levin said.
Also backing Moore's monument fight, nationally recognized Bishop
T.D. Jakes, who was in Birmingham Friday. "Well, I think that the
Ten Commandments transcends beliefs and theology and goes down to
core values and morality that every American should want to
embrace," Jakes said."
http://www.nbc13.com/news/2409426/detail.html
"Buses and vans from as far away as California brought Moore
supporters to Montgomery for an enthusiastic rally on a hot and
muggy morning. Evangelist Jerry Falwell and former presidential
candidate Dr. Alan Keyes were among a half-dozen speakers urging
the crowd to take back America from what Keyes described as the
"unruly courts."
"We stand here today in a great tradition," Keyes said. "Not as
our lying critics would have it in the tradition of those who
defied courts in order to oppress and destroy fellow human
beings, but those who stood against unjust laws in order to stand
for rights of all people. This is where we stand."
http://www.nbc13.com/news/2409426/detail.html
-------------------EOF-------------------
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of
America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme
Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in
the name, and by authority of the good People of these Colonies,
solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and
of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are
Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all
political connection between them and the State of Great Britain,
is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and
Independent States, they have full power to levy War, conclude
Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all
other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on
the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each
other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
(Declaration of Independence)
"We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish
justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings
of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and
guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama"
Constitution Of Alabama 1901
Jd
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer
that breaketh the rock in pieces?" (Jeremiah 23:29)
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 08:16:44 AM

(Chris Morris) wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message news:<9qs8lv8d937sf75ess0lqak8nj7fon5to5@4ax.com>...
:|> Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|Here are a couple of quotes from James Madison:
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment
:|> >:| of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits?
:|> >:| More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy,
:|> >:| ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition,
:|> >:| bigotry and persecution."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison
:|>
:|> Valid quote made invalid because it's not properly cited.
:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
:|> >:|society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
:|> >:|tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
:|> >:|have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
:|> >:|instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
:|> >:|Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
:|> >:|established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
:|> >:|instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
:|>
:|> This is a bit better, but still not properly cited.
:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
:|> >:|from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
:|> >:|Europe in blood for centuries."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison, 1803
:|>
:|
:|> I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
:|> don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
:|> It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.
:|>
:|
:|Here it is with source citation:
:|The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|in blood for centuries.
:|-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|

But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source
I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.
However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
appears above, i.e.
- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
and if it is, it is a totally worthless and invalid cite.
Letters are addressed to a person or group even a place.
Letters are written on a date a day, month, year, At the very least a
month and year.
Letters exist in original form, the actual letter, i.e. the primary source.
Such letters are held by someone or place, i.e. such and such collection,
William Clemens Library, U of Michigan for example.
Also such letters are frequently published in publications that pass as
primary source such as the The Papers of James Madison.
None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
viewed as bogus.
.

User: "Chris Morris"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	04 Sep 2003 01:44:37 AM

wrote in message news:<7gpblvsl1rgidv4b10jlira50dq5pv4fei@4ax.com>...

Draccus874@hotmail.com (Chris Morris) wrote:

wrote in message news:<9qs8lv8d937sf75ess0lqak8nj7fon5to5@4ax.com>...
:|> Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|Here are a couple of quotes from James Madison:
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment
:|> >:| of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits?
:|> >:| More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy,
:|> >:| ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition,
:|> >:| bigotry and persecution."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison
:|>
:|> Valid quote made invalid because it's not properly cited.
:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
:|> >:|society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
:|> >:|tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
:|> >:|have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
:|> >:|instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
:|> >:|Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
:|> >:|established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
:|> >:|instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
:|>
:|> This is a bit better, but still not properly cited.
:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:| "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
:|> >:|from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
:|> >:|Europe in blood for centuries."
:|> >:|
:|> >:| --James Madison, 1803
:|>

:|> I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
:|> don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
:|> It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.
:|>
:|
:|Here it is with source citation:
:|The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|in blood for centuries.
:|-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|

But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source

I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.

However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
appears above, i.e.

- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

and if it is, it is a totally worthless and invalid cite.

Letters are addressed to a person or group even a place.
Letters are written on a date a day, month, year, At the very least a
month and year.
Letters exist in original form, the actual letter, i.e. the primary source.
Such letters are held by someone or place, i.e. such and such collection,
William Clemens Library, U of Michigan for example.
Also such letters are frequently published in publications that pass as
primary source such as the The Papers of James Madison.

None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
viewed as bogus.

By the terms of research a valid cite simply points the way for you to
follow, now if you do not have the book, try the Library, but you are
not likly to be allowed the access you seek to the primary source
materail and at best will have only the secondary source to read, thus
I suggest you work from there like a true seeker of historical truth.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	04 Sep 2003 06:15:41 AM

(Chris Morris) wrote:

Huh?
A valid site takes you to the quote.
If it is a secondary source, one will frequently find that the secondary
source has a footnote that has the primary source cited. If there is only
a cite to a secondary cite and that secondary cite doesn't further cites
the quote to a primary or acceptable stand in primary source document one
should begin to get suspicious.
BTW "primary source" takes several forms.
(1) There is the actual document, as written or as printed if published in
a newspaper, etc. of the day.
(2) There are valid photo copies of the actual document in its original
handwritten or printed version.
(3) There are microfilm and or microfiche of the actual document or of a
printed version of the actual document that was transcribed from the hand
written original.
(4) There are published books such as The Papers of James Madison or the
Writings of James Madison that stand in as acceptable for a primary source.

:|now if you do not have the book, try the Library, but you are
:|not likly to be allowed the access you seek to the primary source
:|materail and at best will have only the secondary source to read, thus

There are a number of actual documents that I have been able to either see,
or to see photo copies of or have had libraries send me copies of and those
were in the actual handwriting of the person who originally wrote same.
I have also had access to microfilm and microfiche of original documents,
again in the actual handwriting of the person.
The following James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief is a secondary
source and if it doesn't provide a further cite, to a original or printed
version of said letter, it is kind of worthless. Worthless as in you have
to trust that person did his or her homework. Plus you have to wonder if
they verified the quote why didn't they add that cite as well.
In addition, this "- letter objecting to the use of government land for
churches, 1803," makes me very suspicious since that letter, if it existed
was written in a specific time, more precise than 1803 and to a person
place or thing. Yet that isn't provided.
If by some chance this "letter' was found among Madison's notes, was never
finished, was published, was never fully dated and wasn't addressed to
anyone specifically, it still is in the posession of someone or someplace
and that would be included as part of the cite such as this was:
Excerpts from Madison's Detached Memoranda.
This document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell
Rives, a biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in
Madison's hand sometime between 1817 and 1832. They offer glimpses of
Madison's opinions on several topics and personalities. What follows is
that part of the "Memoranda" devoted to the subject of religious liberty.
The entire document was published by Elizabeth Fleet in the William and
Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
If you note the material was found among the papers of a certain person, a
man who had been studying Madison.

:|I suggest you work from there like a true seeker of historical truth.

I see (grin)
.

User: "Chris Morris"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	05 Sep 2003 01:56:13 AM

wrote in message news:<2e5elvg05k496p8l0o7v7vqhup6sfv83ri@4ax.com>...

Draccus874@hotmail.com (Chris Morris) wrote:

wrote in message
:|> But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source
:|>
:|> I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
:|> Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
:|> the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.
:|>
:|> However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
:|> appears above, i.e.
:|>
:|> - letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|> quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|>
:|> and if it is, it is a totally worthless and invalid cite.
:|>
:|> Letters are addressed to a person or group even a place.
:|> Letters are written on a date a day, month, year, At the very least a
:|> month and year.
:|> Letters exist in original form, the actual letter, i.e. the primary source.
:|> Such letters are held by someone or place, i.e. such and such collection,
:|> William Clemens Library, U of Michigan for example.
:|> Also such letters are frequently published in publications that pass as
:|> primary source such as the The Papers of James Madison.
:|>
:|> None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
:|> viewed as bogus.
:|
:|By the terms of research a valid cite simply points the way for you to
:|follow,

Actually anyone doing research will find that using the system IE the
internet one may not find the source quoted with footnotes intact, my
suggestion since you said that you did stated you did not have in your
personal library, I suggested you go to this secondary source at the
Public Library find it there and then look for the proper source
material. I was posting the information I had discovered on this quote
from an internet site, having seen the same said quote from multiple
sources on and offline.

BTW "primary source" takes several forms.
(1) There is the actual document, as written or as printed if published in
a newspaper, etc. of the day.
(2) There are valid photo copies of the actual document in its original
handwritten or printed version.
(3) There are microfilm and or microfiche of the actual document or of a
printed version of the actual document that was transcribed from the hand
written original.
(4) There are published books such as The Papers of James Madison or the
Writings of James Madison that stand in as acceptable for a primary source.

Actually in point of fact the concept of primary source is the orignal
document or facimile of such, a book about someones writtings IE James
Madisons is always considered a Secondary, not primary source.

There are a number of actual documents that I have been able to either see,
or to see photo copies of or have had libraries send me copies of and those
were in the actual handwriting of the person who originally wrote same.

I have also had access to microfilm and microfiche of original documents,
again in the actual handwriting of the person.

The following James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief is a secondary
source and if it doesn't provide a further cite, to a original or printed
version of said letter, it is kind of worthless. Worthless as in you have
to trust that person did his or her homework. Plus you have to wonder if
they verified the quote why didn't they add that cite as well.

In addition, this "- letter objecting to the use of government land for
churches, 1803," makes me very suspicious since that letter, if it existed
was written in a specific time, more precise than 1803 and to a person
place or thing. Yet that isn't provided.

If by some chance this "letter' was found among Madison's notes, was never
finished, was published, was never fully dated and wasn't addressed to
anyone specifically, it still is in the posession of someone or someplace
and that would be included as part of the cite such as this was:

Excerpts from Madison's Detached Memoranda.
This document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell
Rives, a biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in
Madison's hand sometime between 1817 and 1832. They offer glimpses of
Madison's opinions on several topics and personalities. What follows is
that part of the "Memoranda" devoted to the subject of religious liberty.
The entire document was published by Elizabeth Fleet in the William and
Mary Quarterly of October 1946.

If you note the material was found among the papers of a certain person, a
man who had been studying Madison.

:|I suggest you work from there like a true seeker of historical truth.

I see (grin)

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	05 Sep 2003 05:57:06 AM

(Chris Morris) wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message news:<2e5elvg05k496p8l0o7v7vqhup6sfv83ri@4ax.com>...
:|>

(Chris Morris) wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|> >:|Here it is with source citation:
:|> >:|> >:|The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|> >:|> >:|these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|> >:|> >:|in blood for centuries.
:|> >:|> >:|-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|> >:|> >:|quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|> >:|> >:|
:|>
:|>
:|> >:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message
:|> >:|> But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
:|> >:|> Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
:|> >:|> the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
:|> >:|> appears above, i.e.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> - letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|> >:|> quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> and if it is, it is a totally worthless and invalid cite.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> Letters are addressed to a person or group even a place.
:|> >:|> Letters are written on a date a day, month, year, At the very least a
:|> >:|> month and year.
:|> >:|> Letters exist in original form, the actual letter, i.e. the primary source.
:|> >:|> Such letters are held by someone or place, i.e. such and such collection,
:|> >:|> William Clemens Library, U of Michigan for example.
:|> >:|> Also such letters are frequently published in publications that pass as
:|> >:|> primary source such as the The Papers of James Madison.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|> None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
:|> >:|> viewed as bogus.
:|> >:|
:|> >:|By the terms of research a valid cite simply points the way for you to
:|> >:|follow,
:|>
:|> Huh?
:|>
:|> A valid site takes you to the quote.
:|> If it is a secondary source, one will frequently find that the secondary
:|> source has a footnote that has the primary source cited. If there is only
:|> a cite to a secondary cite and that secondary cite doesn't further cites
:|> the quote to a primary or acceptable stand in primary source document one
:|> should begin to get suspicious.
:|
:|Actually anyone doing research will find that using the system IE the
:|internet one may not find the source quoted with footnotes intact, my
:|suggestion since you said that you did stated you did not have in your
:|personal library, I suggested you go to this secondary source at the
:|Public Library find it there and then look for the proper source
:|material. I was posting the information I had discovered on this quote
:|from an internet site, having seen the same said quote from multiple
:|sources on and offline.

(1) I supply valid and complete cites.
(2) I personally verify the information before I use it.
(3) The information you supplied is incomplete, which was the point of my
comments to begin with. The information you provided only makes the
possibility of the quote being bogus all the more likely, which also was my
point.
(4) Carol Lee Smith does have a recent copy of James A. Haught's 2000
Years of Disbelief and says the quote isn't in that edition anywhere.
BTW I just noticed, even the cite for Haught's book is incomplete, for
instance it doesn't give a copyright date or edition identification, nor
page number. It is beginning to look like not only did someone invent the
quote, they borrowed a source to put with it that isn't even a bona fide
secondary source for that quote at all.

:|> BTW "primary source" takes several forms.
:|> (1) There is the actual document, as written or as printed if published in
:|> a newspaper, etc. of the day.
:|> (2) There are valid photo copies of the actual document in its original
:|> handwritten or printed version.
:|> (3) There are microfilm and or microfiche of the actual document or of a
:|> printed version of the actual document that was transcribed from the hand
:|> written original.
:|> (4) There are published books such as The Papers of James Madison or the
:|> Writings of James Madison that stand in as acceptable for a primary source.
:|
:|Actually in point of fact the concept of primary source is the orignal
:|document or facimile of such, a book about someones writtings IE James
:|Madisons is always considered a Secondary, not primary source.

I was not talking about some ones "writings."
That is secondary source
The multi volume set of books currently being published of Thomas
Jefferson's writings or James Madison's writings by Princeton and whatever
University that is doing the other set of books are accepted as a proper
facsimile "primary source" for citing purposes, etc.
The Establishment Clause by Leonard W. Levy, which contains many quotes
from various men, such as Madison, etc but also is a book written by Levy,
is a secondary source. A very good secondary source, since he properly and
fully cites the excerpted quotes he includes but a secondary source
nonetheless.
.

User: "Chris Morris"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	04 Sep 2003 01:44:52 AM

wrote in message news:<7gpblvsl1rgidv4b10jlira50dq5pv4fei@4ax.com>...

Draccus874@hotmail.com (Chris Morris) wrote:

But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source

I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.

However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
appears above, i.e.

- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

and if it is, it is a totally worthless and invalid cite.

Letters are addressed to a person or group even a place.
Letters are written on a date a day, month, year, At the very least a
month and year.
Letters exist in original form, the actual letter, i.e. the primary source.
Such letters are held by someone or place, i.e. such and such collection,
William Clemens Library, U of Michigan for example.
Also such letters are frequently published in publications that pass as
primary source such as the The Papers of James Madison.

None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
viewed as bogus.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 11:59:48 AM

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003

wrote:

Draccus874@hotmail.com (Chris Morris) wrote:

:|> >:| "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
:|> I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
:|> don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
:|> It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.
:|Here it is with source citation:
:|The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|in blood for centuries.
:|-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

I have the book before me right now. I don't find that quote in Haught's
book, 1996 copyright date.

None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
viewed as bogus.

I would like someone to present proof that the quote is in any edition of
this particular Haught book.
Carol
a skeptic Bright, in WI
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious
theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a
personal God." Thomas Alva Edison, statement issued amid the public
controversy generated in 1910, in Josephson, Edison: A Biography, p. 438.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 02:52:15 PM

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:|On Wed, 3 Sep 2003

wrote:
:|
:|>

(Chris Morris) wrote:
:|
:|> >:|> >:| "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
:|> >:|> I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
:|> >:|> don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
:|> >:|> It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.
:|
:|> >:|Here it is with source citation:
:|> >:|The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|> >:|these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|> >:|in blood for centuries.
:|> >:|-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|> >:|quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
:|
:|> But it's not a proper cite. It's a cite to a secondary source
:|
:|> I don't have that particular book here. I have The great Quotations, George
:|> Seldes, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom, Menendez and Doerr, and
:|> the Encyclopedia of unbelief, Stein.
:|
:|> However, I would be willing to bet that the cite in that book is as it
:|> appears above, i.e.
:|
:|I have the book before me right now. I don't find that quote in Haught's
:|book, 1996 copyright date.
:|
:|> None of that is present. Hence until someone can produce such it should be
:|> viewed as bogus.
:|
:|I would like someone to present proof that the quote is in any edition of
:|this particular Haught book.

You should let him know if you know how to get in touch with him. Perhaps
it was in a earlier edition, perhaps someone made up the entire cite and
not just that highly suspicious first part of it

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 11:14:34 AM

On 2 Sep 2003, Chris Morris wrote:

Here it is with source citation:
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
in blood for centuries.
-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Jim Haught has published this alleged quotation, suggesting that it came
from an 1803 letter.
But where is this letter?
It can't seem to be found.
Jim needs to remove this quote from any subsequent editions of his book,
which I own, and consider to be a valuable resource.
At least until he can give an appropriate citation.
.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 12:20:01 PM

wrote:

:|
:| "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
:|from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
:|Europe in blood for centuries."
:|
:| --James Madison, 1803

I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.

I checked all of the sites the Google, and they all gave the same
incomplete cite, except the following, which at least gives a clue
where to look for a more complete cite.
http://www.mvm-hands.com/madison.htm

The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
in blood for centuries.
-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

---------------------------------------------------------------------

:| �Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and
:| unfits it for every noble enterprise.�
:|
:| --James Madison, April 1, 1774

I'm not familiar with the above, so I don't know if it is valid or not but
I do know that because it is not properly cited one can't verify it without
going to a great deal of extra work and effort.
Un cited or improperly cited quotes should always be viewed as suspicious
(questionable or bogus) until the one supplying said quote provides a
proper and full cite for it.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions18.html
provides a more or less proper cite along with the quote in context

James Madison to William Bradford
1 Apr. 1774 Papers 1:112--13
The Papers of James Madison. Edited by William T. Hutchinson et al.
Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1962--77 (vols.
1--10); Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1977--(vols.
11--).

lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 02:31:34 PM

Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|>>:|
:|>>:| "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
:|>>:|from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
:|>>:|Europe in blood for centuries."
:|>>:|
:|>>:| --James Madison, 1803
:|>
:|>I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
:|>don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
:|>It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.
:|
:|I checked all of the sites the Google, and they all gave the same
:|incomplete cite, except the following, which at least gives a clue
:|where to look for a more complete cite.
:|
:|http://www.mvm-hands.com/madison.htm
:|>The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|> these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|> in blood for centuries.
:|>-- letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803,
:|> quoted from James A. Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Well, in 1803 Madison would have been Sec of State IIRC.
There isn't even a name the letter is addressed to.
Now, there was a letter objecting to the use of government land for
churches, for sure.
He objected so strongly he vetoed the Act of Congress.
Below is the letter he wrote afterwards.
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)

:|---------------------------------------------------------------------
:|>>:| �Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and
:|>>:| unfits it for every noble enterprise.�
:|>>:|
:|>>:| --James Madison, April 1, 1774
:|>
:|>
:|>I'm not familiar with the above, so I don't know if it is valid or not but
:|>I do know that because it is not properly cited one can't verify it without
:|>going to a great deal of extra work and effort.
:|>Un cited or improperly cited quotes should always be viewed as suspicious
:|>(questionable or bogus) until the one supplying said quote provides a
:|>proper and full cite for it.
:|
:|http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions18.html
:|provides a more or less proper cite along with the quote in context
:|
:|>James Madison to William Bradford
:|>1 Apr. 1774 Papers 1:112--13
:|
:|>The Papers of James Madison. Edited by William T. Hutchinson et al.
:|> Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1962--77 (vols.
:|> 1--10); Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1977--(vols.
:|> 11--).

Both of the above are proper cites, short form and long form, both totally
proper and complete
And had I looked at the date I have the letter, I have the complete
Bradford exchange between them both to each other.
I just looked at the quote and didn't pay any attention to the date.
I don't have every quote or letter etc memorized. (grin)
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 03:40:57 PM

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:20:01 -0500, Bob LeChevalier wrote
(in message <tij9lv0uqpdiijmq3uokk6hmb6duci4pd7@4ax.com>):

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions18.html
provides a more or less proper cite along with the quote in context

Wow! Super!
Using, on google,
[+"religious bondage" +"james madison" +"william bradford"]
I came up with 124 cites which all seem to be valid.
An extremely interesting webpage is on Heritage Foundation at:
<http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM729.cfm>
So I think - thanks to your work - that we've got a "vaid" quotation.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one
individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take
command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 07:21:47 PM

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:40:57 -0500, Gray Shockley wrote:

[+"religious bondage" +"james madison" +"william bradford"]

"Religious bondage?"
Why do I *always walk into conversations at the *weirdest moment?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 11:47:52 PM

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:21:47 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
(in message <pan.2003.09.03.00.21.47.22947@eac.org>):

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:40:57 -0500, Gray Shockley wrote:

[+"religious bondage" +"james madison" +"william bradford"]

"Religious bondage?"

Why do I *always walk into conversations at the *weirdest moment?

But, wait! There's Moore!
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is evitable but suffering is optional.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 12:06:43 AM

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:47:52 -0500, Gray Shockley wrote:

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:21:47 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote (in message
<pan.2003.09.03.00.21.47.22947@eac.org>):

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:40:57 -0500, Gray Shockley wrote:

[+"religious bondage" +"james madison" +"william bradford"]

"Religious bondage?"

Why do I *always walk into conversations at the *weirdest moment?

But, wait! There's Moore!

Yeah but that's what I'm *afraid of...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 06:15:53 PM

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Bob LeChevalier wrote:

OK.
I guess I will write to Jim. That is easy enough. Had I known about this
earlier, I would have told him when I saw him over the 4th of July.
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 10:17:21 AM

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 5:40:49 -0500,

wrote
(in message <9qs8lv8d937sf75ess0lqak8nj7fon5to5@4ax.com>):

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
Europe in blood for centuries."

--James Madison, 1803

I would really like to see someone provide a quote for the above because I
don't think the above is a valid quote at all.
It sounds nice, but it sounds almost too nice.

I checked [google.com] over 50 webpages for this quote and the few that
"identified" it did so as "a letter in 1803" except for one site that id'ed
it as "a speech in 1803"
I end up agreeing with your opinion that it is not "a valid quote". (durn!)
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is evitable but suffering is optional.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 12:16:07 PM

Gray Shockley <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

:|On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 5:40:49 -0500,

Rob Boston of Americans United (Why the Religious Right is Wrong) sent me
a email a couple years ago asking me about it and we couldn't find a valid
cited source for it then either so we both pretty much agreed it shouldn't
be used.
However, as I demonstrated there are valid quotes that can be properly
cited that does mention church state separation by him.
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	02 Sep 2003 06:14:30 PM

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003

wrote:

:|I end up agreeing with your opinion that it is not "a valid quote". (durn!)

thanks for that information. Guess I don't need to write to AU. They
obviously know already.
Wonder if I should write to Molly Ivens.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 07:58:05 AM

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:|On Tue, 2 Sep 2003

Who is Molly Ivens?
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 10:53:01 AM

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:58:05 -0400, buckeye-ELO wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:

:|On Tue, 2 Sep 2003

Who is Molly Ivens?

Really? She's fun. Even if you don't agree with her politics. <g>
She can be found over here:
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv
(And it is Ivins... easy to misspell)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 12:48:27 PM

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

:|Wonder if I should write to Molly Ivens.

Who is Molly Ivens?

Really? She's fun. Even if you don't agree with her politics. <g>
She can be found over here:
http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv
(And it is Ivins... easy to misspell)

thanks for bringing that to my attention.
my mistake.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 02:45:35 PM

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:48:27 -0500, Carol Lee Smith wrote:

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

:|Wonder if I should write to Molly Ivens.

Who is Molly Ivens?

Really? She's fun. Even if you don't agree with her politics. <g>

She can be found over here:

http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv

(And it is Ivins... easy to misspell)

thanks for bringing that to my attention.

my mistake.

As I said, it's an easy one to make. I misspell her name with abandon. <g>
--
Mark K. Bilbo
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: The Alabama federal court is in violation of the Establishment Clause	03 Sep 2003 02:48:01 PM

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv
(And it is Ivins... easy to misspell)

thanks for bringing that to my attention.
my mistake.

As I said, it's an easy one to make. I misspell her name with abandon. <g>

Gee, and my only crimie was I misspell her name with an <e>.
hehehehehehe
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Judge Rejects Return of Alabamakabala	04 Sep 2003 10:00:10 PM

Judge Rejects Return of Ten Commandments Marker
Thu September 4, 2003 05:14 PM ET
By Verna Gates
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (Reuters) - A federal judge on Thursday rejected a
bid by supporters of embattled Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy
Moore to have a controversial monument inscribed with the Ten
Commandments returned to public view in the state courthouse.
....
"The empty space of nothingness in the rotunda of the judicial
building is neither an endorsement of non-theistic belief nor a sign
of disrespect for Christianity or any other religion," U.S. District
Court Judge Myron Thompson said in his ruling on Thursday.
The ruling came one week after a California lawyer filed a lawsuit in
a federal court in Alabama, charging that authorities had
discriminated against Christians by removing the monument.
Patrick Mahoney, the director of the Christian Defense Coalition and
one of those who protested in Montgomery against the monument's
removal, vowed to appeal Thompson's latest ruling to the 11th U.S.
Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta.
Bearing two tablets
[one would wonder if this reporter has ever seen pictures of the
Alabamakabala, which doesn't depict two tablets. It depicts an open book
on top, not tow tablets.]
inscribed with the commandments that Jews
and Christians believe were passed from God to Moses, the stone marker
was placed in the building by Moore and a small group of followers in
July 2001.
After ruling it unconstitutional last year, Thompson gave the defiant
Moore until Aug. 20, 2003 to remove the monument.
Moore, a Christian who was easily elected as Alabama's chief justice
in 2000, was suspended after refusing the order. He has been accused
of violating judicial ethics.
"We believe there is no appropriate place to post the Ten
Commandments on government property," Larry Darby, a spokesman for
the American Atheists group, said shortly after the ruling on
Thursday.
--------end of excerpts----------------
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3390475
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Judge Rejects Return of Alabamakabala	04 Sep 2003 10:49:59 PM

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:00:10 -0500, Carol Lee Smith wrote
(in message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1030904215604.16056A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>):

Judge Rejects Return of Ten Commandments Marker
Thu September 4, 2003 05:14 PM ET
By Verna Gates
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (Reuters) - A federal judge on Thursday rejected a
bid by supporters of embattled Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy
Moore to have a controversial monument inscribed with the Ten
Commandments returned to public view in the state courthouse.
...
"The empty space of nothingness in the rotunda of the judicial
building is neither an endorsement of non-theistic belief nor a sign
of disrespect for Christianity or any other religion," U.S. District
Court Judge Myron Thompson said in his ruling on Thursday.

The ruling came one week after a California lawyer filed a lawsuit in
a federal court in Alabama, charging that authorities had
discriminated against Christians by removing the monument.

Patrick Mahoney, the director of the Christian Defense Coalition and
one of those who protested in Montgomery against the monument's
removal, vowed to appeal Thompson's latest ruling to the 11th U.S.
Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta.

Bearing two tablets

[one would wonder if this reporter has ever seen pictures of the
Alabamakabala, which doesn't depict two tablets. It depicts an open book
on top, not tow tablets.]

inscribed with the commandments that Jews
and Christians believe were passed from God to Moses, the stone marker
was placed in the building by Moore and a small group of followers in
July 2001.

After ruling it unconstitutional last year, Thompson gave the defiant
Moore until Aug. 20, 2003 to remove the monument.

Moore, a Christian who was easily elected as Alabama's chief justice
in 2000, was suspended after refusing the order. He has been accused
of violating judicial ethics.

Moore is a /Christian/??????
What evidence of that is there?
Has anyone seen or heard anything about this
wacko/loon behaving in a Christ-like manner?
Now if he had said that he was a follower of Saint Paul the Latent, I could
go along with it but a Christian? Someone behaving in a Christ-like manner
would not be up on an ethics charge.
Q. How can you tell Roy Moore is lying?
A. He's talking. (or writing or - - whatever)

"We believe there is no appropriate place to post the Ten
Commandments on government property," Larry Darby, a spokesman for
the American Atheists group, said shortly after the ruling on
Thursday.
--------end of excerpts----------------
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3390475

User: "jwk"
Title: Re: Judge Rejects Return of Alabamakabala	05 Sep 2003 01:21:25 PM

Gray Shockley <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote in message news:<0001HW.BB7D721700066EBC152DE890@news-south.giganews.com>...

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:00:10 -0500, Carol Lee Smith wrote
(in message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1030904215604.16056A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>):

Judge Rejects Return of Ten Commandments Marker
Thu September 4, 2003 05:14 PM ET
By Verna Gates
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (Reuters) - A federal judge on Thursday rejected a
bid by supporters of embattled Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy
Moore to have a controversial monument inscribed with the Ten
Commandments returned to public view in the state courthouse.
...
"The empty space of nothingness in the rotunda of the judicial
building is neither an endorsement of non-theistic belief nor a sign
of disrespect for Christianity or any other religion," U.S. District
Court Judge Myron Thompson said in his ruling on Thursday.

The ruling came one week after a California lawyer filed a lawsuit in
a federal court in Alabama, charging that authorities had
discriminated against Christians by removing the monument.

Patrick Mahoney, the director of the Christian Defense Coalition and
one of those who protested in Montgomery against the monument's
removal, vowed to appeal Thompson's latest ruling to the 11th U.S.
Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta.

Bearing two tablets

[one would wonder if this reporter has ever seen pictures of the
Alabamakabala, which doesn't depict two tablets. It depicts an open book
on top, not tow tablets.]

inscribed with the commandments that Jews
and Christians believe were passed from God to Moses, the stone marker
was placed in the building by Moore and a small group of followers in
July 2001.

After ruling it unconstitutional last year, Thompson gave the defiant
Moore until Aug. 20, 2003 to remove the monument.

Moore, a Christian who was easily elected as Alabama's chief justice
in 2000, was suspended after refusing the order. He has been accused
of violating judicial ethics.

Moore is a /Christian/??????

What evidence of that is there?

Has anyone seen or heard anything about this
wacko/loon behaving in a Christ-like manner?

[snip]
You said it - "wacko/loon". If that isn't Christ-like what is? After
all, you go around claiming your mother was a virgin, a god is your
father, and you let yourself be captured to be executed to 'wash away
other's sins" you are pretty much a loon. If Jesus was a real person,
he was a real loon.
jwk
BAAWA
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Judge Rejects Return of Alabamakabala	05 Sep 2003 01:50:40 PM

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:21:25 -0500, jwk wrote
(in message <c6f5ba32.0309051021.305a847f@posting.google.com>):

Moore is a /Christian/??????

What evidence of that is there?

Has anyone seen or heard anything about this
wacko/loon behaving in a Christ-like manner?

[snip]

You said it - "wacko/loon". If that isn't Christ-like what is? After
all, you go around claiming your mother was a virgin, a god is your
father, and you let yourself be captured to be executed to 'wash away
other's sins" you are pretty much a loon. If Jesus was a real person,
he was a real loon.

jwk
BAAWA

That is, of course, the old high school football ploy to get the other side
to go offsides.
A guard or tackle would whisper to a lineman on the other team, "Your mother
isn't a virgin" and the guy from the other side would go screaming into the
opposing line.
Gray
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: Judge Rejects Return of Alabamakabala	04 Sep 2003 11:11:08 PM

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Gray Shockley wrote:

[one would wonder if this reporter has ever seen pictures of the
Alabamakabala, which doesn't depict two tablets. It depicts an open book
on top, not tow (make that two) tablets.]
Moore, a Christian who was eas