| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"David Haas" |
| Date: |
19 Oct 2003 04:46:43 AM |
| Object: |
Moral behavior |
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
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| User: "Nick Burns" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 08:42:52 PM |
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"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible
It does nor come from the bible. It can be reinforced and expanded by
lessons learned from the bible, but I have never heard the claim that the
bible was the source. God is the source and it is not exclusive. It is
written in every person's heart. That is what the bible claims.
why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc?
This is perfectly consistent with the fact that you can find ethical people
from all walks of life.
I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God.
Yes, consistent with the claims of the bible.
What about
"godless" primitive cultures?
Also consistent with the claims of the bible.
Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. .
No.
I bet its just the opposite.
What is your evidence? Intuition? Hatred of believers?
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
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| User: "Nick Burns" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 07:46:44 PM |
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"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
I don't know anyone that has stated that morality comes from the bible.
There are stories and parables intended to provoke thought about morality,
but that is not a claim to be the source.
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| User: "Mike Henry" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:34:31 PM |
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"Nick Burns" <chrismcreynolds@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f933075$0$26346$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com...
"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the
same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
I don't know anyone that has stated that morality comes from the bible.
There are stories and parables intended to provoke thought about morality,
but that is not a claim to be the source.
The bible is not the only source of stories and parables available. Aesops
Fables were quite valuable to me.
--
-- Geo. Michael Henry
No! Bad dog! I said sit! anonymous
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| User: "Dr. DuFonet" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 08:02:09 AM |
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"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
The religious prohibition against such activities was an invention of the
priesthood. The tendency of rulers to do just those things was kept in
check to protect the religious social structures. These activities were to
be permitted against opposing tribes and peoples. We have inherited these
structures because they self-replicated with the growth of Christianity and
served the same useful purpose as in so-called Biblical times. The
prohibited activities are not abnormal when engaged in by individuals at the
top of the social heirarchy. For instance, if you are very rich, you can get
away with more stuff because you have a good lawyer.
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 04:55:06 AM |
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"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
a theist will only say that god put the morality in people blah blah jesus
blah
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so was
selected for
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
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| User: "Geoff Offermann" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 08:49:52 AM |
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"the cutest atheist" <herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_btkb.157268$bo1.61272@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the
same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
a theist will only say that god put the morality in people blah blah jesus
blah
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so was
selected for
I don't think this trait has pervaded the entire population yet.
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| User: "Born Again Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 12:32:54 PM |
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"the cutest atheist" <herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<_btkb.157268$bo1.61272@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so was
selected for
This may be partially right. Whenever you feel guilt over acts you
committed you are compelled to repair the damage done or ,perhaps, not
repeat the same mistake again. Guilt could be a form of preservation
mechanism that pulls you out of harm's way when situation becomes
exceedingly 'not-in-your-favor'. Imagine a seesaw with these
conditions - you should always be moving closer to the middle where
there is equilibrium. I can reckon that there is something about this
in my psychology textbook but I am too lazy to dig it up.
There are people suffering from antisocial personality disorder who
lack any sense of guilt. They go on committing crime until they are
caught or injured in the process. This is counterproductive to their
well-being - they are on the dangerous side of that seesaw. You can
exploit society you live in but there is a line that you must draw to
avoid your capture such as controlling frequency of your 'exploits',
lying, feeling 'sorry', memorizing benefit and danger incurred from an
act of the past, etc.
I have something on this here:
"Individuals with antisocial personality disorder have a personality
disorder quite different from the schizoid group. They frequently
violate social rules and laws, take advantage of others, and feel
little guilt about it. These individuals often have smooth social
skills: They are sweet-talking con artists who are very likable at
first. But they experience great difficulties in maintaining close
personal relationships. They enter into marriages and other intimate
relationships easily, but they tend to break up quickly.
People with antisocial personality disorder frequently violate social
laws and rules, while feeling little guilt about it. The disorder
begins in childhood, when the person is usually highly aggressive.
Antisocial personalities have a low tolerance for frustration. They
act on impulse, lose their tempers quickly, and lie easily and
skillfully. They are often hardened criminals. In childhood,
antisocial personalities are very difficult children. They are often
bullies who fight, lie, cheat, steal, and are truant from school. They
blame others for their misdeeds, feel picked on by their parents and
teachers, and never seem to learn from their mistakes.
Individuals with antisocial personality disorder are often unemotional
and guiltless—they are calm, cool characters. They are highly
uncomfortable, however, when they are kept from excitement. They have
an abnormal need for stimulation, novelty, and thrills. Because many
turn to alcohol and drugs for excitement, they frequently become
addicts. The primary harmfulness of the antisocial personality
disorder is in the damage that is done to others. They often leave a
trail of victims—victims of their lies, their crimes, 3 their violent
outbursts, and their broken intimate relationships."
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 02:39:39 PM |
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In article <a07bedeb.0310190932.42a6ab80@posting.google.com>,
michael@buffalo.com says...
I have something on this here:
"Individuals with antisocial personality disorder have a personality
disorder quite different from the schizoid group. They frequently
violate social rules and laws, take advantage of others, and feel
little guilt about it. These individuals often have smooth social
skills: They are sweet-talking con artists who are very likable at
first. But they experience great difficulties in maintaining close
personal relationships. They enter into marriages and other intimate
relationships easily, but they tend to break up quickly.
People with antisocial personality disorder frequently violate social
laws and rules, while feeling little guilt about it. The disorder
begins in childhood, when the person is usually highly aggressive.
Antisocial personalities have a low tolerance for frustration. They
act on impulse, lose their tempers quickly, and lie easily and
skillfully. They are often hardened criminals. In childhood,
antisocial personalities are very difficult children.
So far just about all of this sounds identical to George W. Bush. His
marriage to Laura is the only exception, but it appears that she's a
co-dependent alcoholic too and their marriage is primarily one of
political convenience.
They are often
bullies who fight, lie, cheat, steal, and are truant from school. They
blame others for their misdeeds, feel picked on by their parents and
teachers, and never seem to learn from their mistakes.
Yep. That's our boy Duhbya.
Individuals with antisocial personality disorder are often unemotional
and guiltless?they are calm, cool characters. They are highly
uncomfortable, however, when they are kept from excitement. They have
an abnormal need for stimulation, novelty, and thrills. Because many
turn to alcohol and drugs for excitement, they frequently become
addicts.
<Ding, ding, ding> that's Georgie.
The primary harmfulness of the antisocial personality
disorder is in the damage that is done to others. They often leave a
trail of victims?victims of their lies, their crimes, 3 their violent
outbursts,
their 500 billion dollar annual deficits, their bankrupting of social
security, their occupation of foreign countries, their gutting of
environmental standards. It's what happens when we get a crack-smoking
sociopath like Bush for a president.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "Born Again Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
20 Oct 2003 05:09:12 PM |
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quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19fc965191c88a6398a288@news.cis.dfn.de>...
In article <a07bedeb.0310190932.42a6ab80@posting.google.com>,
michael@buffalo.com says...
I have something on this here:
Antisocial personalities have a low tolerance for frustration. They
act on impulse, lose their tempers quickly, and lie easily and
skillfully. They are often hardened criminals. In childhood,
antisocial personalities are very difficult children.
So far just about all of this sounds identical to George W. Bush. His
marriage to Laura is the only exception, but it appears that she's a
co-dependent alcoholic too and their marriage is primarily one of
political convenience.
Try to zero-in on Bush's personality disorders using this test:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv
If someone wants to take this test to evaluate himself then you should
know that the test is flawed and often does not yield accurate
results. If you get 'high' on one or two disorders and
'low'/'moderate' on others then read up on those particular disorders
here:
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/personality_disorders_anti_social.htm
and browse/search to find it.
Have fun.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 07:06:03 AM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:55:06 GMT, "the cutest atheist"
<herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com> wrote:
"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
a theist will only say that god put the morality in people blah blah jesus
blah
He is also likely to say that the reason we do not see the "truth of
Jesus" is because we are blinded by evil. Consistency is a low
priority with them.
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so was
selected for
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
21 Oct 2003 10:36:35 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:55:06 GMT, "the cutest atheist"
<herdofnerd(remove)@hotmail.com>, Message ID:
<_btkb.157268$bo1.61272@news-server.bigpond.net.au> wrote in
alt.atheism;
"David Haas" <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories
feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing,
lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
a theist will only say that god put the morality in people blah blah jesus
blah
'Morality' like when you're searching for a 'wife' and you find some
hottie that doesn't want a damn thing to do with you and you rape her.
You simply pay her owner 50 shekels and you get to rape her for as long
as she lives.
Doesn't 'Christian Love and morality(tm)' make you feel warm all over?
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so was
selected for
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
And theists certainly follow that advice.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 07:25:18 AM |
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the cutest atheist wrote in alt.atheism
David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF
stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like
stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians
would feel the same way even if they had never heard of the bible or
God. What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape
and murder in those cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the
opposite.
a theist will only say that god put the morality in people blah blah jesus
blah
Conscience is proof of Jesus, don't you know? <cough>
an evolutionary biologist would say that it was a helpful trait and so
was selected for
I'd go with that one.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 04:51:04 AM |
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David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in alt.atheism
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc?
I'm sure some godbots would claim that's proof of their god.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:39:11 AM |
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David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com>...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
It varies with the culture. If what I was taught 30 years ago is
accurate, the traditional Eskimo and Kalahari Bushmen cultures had
very few rapes and murders. The Yanomamo tribe of the Amazon rain
forest, OTH, seemed to have founded their way of life on intoxicants,
rape, macho displays of brutality, and village-to-village warfare.
--- kermit
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| User: "Kevin Aylward" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 05:40:47 AM |
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David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something immoral.
Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that
Christians would feel the same way even if they had never heard of
the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you
find more rape and murder in those cultures than Christian cultures.
I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede your
interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that would
aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might retaliate
against you if you do them harm.
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
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| User: "Marvin" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:18:57 AM |
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"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote
in message
news:ZStkb.403$nL.308@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an
Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a
bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing
something immoral.
Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would
suspect that
Christians would feel the same way even if they had never
heard of
the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive
cultures? Do you
find more rape and murder in those cultures than Christian
cultures.
I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed
that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often.
They are
completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most
successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might
impede your
interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your
interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede
your interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you
that would
aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids
your
interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone
might retaliate
against you if you do them harm.
Kevin Aylward
LOL! Morals reduced to cynicism. What does it make me if I
believe your explanation is more reasonable than the usual
theistic one?
--
Marvin
To reply, burn off fog.
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| User: "Kevin Aylward" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:50:40 AM |
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Marvin wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote
in message
news:ZStkb.403$nL.308@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something
immoral. Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would
suspect that Christians would feel the same way even if they had
never heard of the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive
cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those cultures than
Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede
your interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your
interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that
would aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might
retaliate against you if you do them harm.
Kevin Aylward
LOL! Morals reduced to cynicism.
Sad, but, imo true.
What does it make me if I
believe your explanation is more reasonable than the usual
theistic one?
I have posted a more detailed account in this thread.
(see other post in thread) If we believe in evolution, i.e. Replicators,
we *have* to accept that *everything* is nothing more than observation
of the best replictators, and by simple math, only the selfish ones win.
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
.
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| User: "Del" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 09:50:06 AM |
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"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ZStkb.403$nL.308@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something immoral.
Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that
Christians would feel the same way even if they had never heard of
the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you
find more rape and murder in those cultures than Christian cultures.
I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical.
Emotions are completely logical? "Emotion" refers to
"a subjective or affective state of mind rather than
to objective or *rational* attitudes"---- Hayakawa,
S. I. Use The Right Word: Modern guide to Synonyms
and Related Words. New york: Readers Digest Books,
1978.
As for selfish:
"It's main connotation is that of grasping greediness without
concern for others" --Ibid
Methinks you have other, undisclosed, and special
definitions for these words.
We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede your
interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
So how did you aid your mother's interests?
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that would
aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might retaliate
against you if you do them harm.
LOL! Where do you pick this stuff up? And why do you
suppose that merely proclaiming these things true
will have any persuasive power?
Have you considered offering AN ARGUMENT for these bald
assertions of yours?
.
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| User: "Kevin Aylward" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:34:24 AM |
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Del wrote:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in
message news:<ZStkb.403$nL.308@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something
immoral. Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would
suspect that Christians would feel the same way even if they had
never heard of the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive
cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those cultures than
Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical.
Emotions are completely logical?
Of course. They couldn't exist unless they had a replication advantage
for our genes.
"Emotion" refers to
"a subjective or affective state of mind rather than
to objective or *rational* attitudes"---- Hayakawa,
This is misleading, as I prove below. Emotions are rational in the sense
that the there is a logical, rational reason for their existence.
S. I. Use The Right Word: Modern guide to Synonyms
and Related Words. New york: Readers Digest Books,
1978.
Unfortunately, the classic definition of "emotion" was made when emotion
was not understood.
As for selfish:
"It's main connotation is that of grasping greediness without
concern for others" --Ibid
Thats right, almost.
Methinks you have other, undisclosed, and special
definitions for these words.
"Selfish" is defined as "doing anything that attempts to maximise ones
own genes replication abilities". That is, doing something for ones one
genetic interest.
Its the one, essentially, put forward by Richard Dawkins in "The Selfish
Gene", that is we are vehicles for the genes. It is the genes that are
selfish, not us specifically, although in most cases "us" is equivalent
to the genes, but not always.
e.g. It may be in the genes best interests to sacrifice the parent
vehicle in order to save the offspring vehicle. Hence, there is nothing
noble in dieing to save your babies life. It a selfish action.
We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede
your interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
So how did you aid your mother's interests?
Ones mothers genes rule the game. I have the same genes.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your
interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that
would aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might
retaliate against you if you do them harm.
It would take to long to go into the full details, but the outline is
given below.
LOL! Where do you pick this stuff up?
Application of simple assumptions.
Theory of Replicators basic axioms:
1 Traits are randomly generated
2 Traits are selected in the environment
3 Traits get passed on to offspring.
And why do you
suppose that merely proclaiming these things true
will have any persuasive power?
If you actually understood them, it would be obvious.
Have you considered offering AN ARGUMENT for these bald
assertions of yours?
Yes. Its trivial. It is the theory of replicators, a *Generalisation* of
Darwins/Dawkins evolution theory.
Anything that satisfies the above axioms will result in certain
predictable consequences. For example, there is considerable evidence
that all animals satisfy these conditions.
Basic math:
Consider a randomly generated, characteristic that has the property
that it can replicate itself. Now consider various characteristics all
replicating. Suppose now that, due to the constraints of the
environment, characteristic A can replicate say, 1% faster than B. Also
assume that the initial numbers of A and B are equal. After 1000
generations the ratio of A/B = 1.01^1000=20,959.
So, if there is a *consistent* and *continuous* replication advantage
for one trait verses another, the one that is only *slightly* better,
will, given enough time, *completely* dominate. That is, "we only
observer that which replicates the most". Note that, some traits are not
consistent over time, for example, getting infinitly bigger then an
opponent has negatives in replication.
Selfishness:
Consider a random generated trait A that aided another trait B to its
own
final disadvantage. Clearly, it could not replicate as well as the trait
it was aiding, hence that trait would be overwhlemed in number by the B
trait. That is, we would only observe the aided trait. This is
the principle of "selfishness". Any trait that is not selfish, *will* be
overrun by another trait. Again, note that "selfishness" is by
reference to its final, outcome. It is quite possible to aid another
trait, if by doing so, it receives a net advantage. A selfish trait must
take advantage of any unselfish trait, therefore, that's what we
observe. The maths demand it.
An emotion is a trait, and satisfies the above axioms and results.
Therefore if an emotion exists, it must be for selfish reasons.
Unselfish emotions must have been overwhelmed by selfish ones, as all
other traits satisfying the axioms do so.
Summary:
If we accept evolution, we must accept from the above mathematics that
we must be inherently selfish. We must also accept that all emotions are
simple traits to aid in replication, therefore they must be inherently
selfish.
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
.
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| User: "mvillanu" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
20 Oct 2003 01:30:38 PM |
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"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message news:<0bykb.436$nL.284@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
[Snip]
Summary:
If we accept evolution, we must accept from the above mathematics that
we must be inherently selfish. We must also accept that all emotions are
simple traits to aid in replication, therefore they must be inherently
selfish.
Members of the Anti-Evolution groups can now be that much more
convinced of their self-righteousness. And they now have more
"evidence" to exploit for their claims on the evils of evolution.
"I don't believe in evolution, therefore I'm not selfish."
"Evolutionists admit that they are selfish and without morals."
"Evolution promotes selfishness, and therefore immorality."
Which of course completely bypasses the fact that one can read the
newspapers and see evidence of such "selfishness" inherent in all
human beings around the world.
Or for that matter, read any concise history book and see the same
thing for the past 3000 years.
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Do you have a student version? =)
.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
20 Oct 2003 03:00:23 PM |
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In alt.talk.creationism, (mvillanu) wrote in
<dc4a405f.0310201030.139bfc35@posting.google.com>:
"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message news:<0bykb.436$nL.284@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
[Snip]
Summary:
If we accept evolution, we must accept from the above mathematics that
we must be inherently selfish. We must also accept that all emotions are
simple traits to aid in replication, therefore they must be inherently
selfish.
Members of the Anti-Evolution groups can now be that much more
convinced of their self-righteousness. And they now have more
"evidence" to exploit for their claims on the evils of evolution.
"I don't believe in evolution, therefore I'm not selfish."
"Evolutionists admit that they are selfish and without morals."
"Evolution promotes selfishness, and therefore immorality."
Which of course completely bypasses the fact that one can read the
newspapers and see evidence of such "selfishness" inherent in all
human beings around the world.
Or for that matter, read any concise history book and see the same
thing for the past 3000 years.
Or even Pascal's Wager.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 04:23:03 PM |
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In alt.talk.creationism I read this message from "Kevin Aylward"
<kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk>:
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something immoral.
Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that
Christians would feel the same way even if they had never heard of
the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you
find more rape and murder in those cultures than Christian cultures.
I bet its just the opposite.
------
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the
replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede your
interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that would
aid your interests.
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
Sorry, but that sounds like a just-so story. Do you have anything
to back up those claims?
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might retaliate
against you if you do them harm.
Nonsense.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 07:34:28 AM |
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Kevin Aylward wrote in alt.atheism
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something immoral.
Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that
Christians would feel the same way even if they had never heard of
the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you
find more rape and murder in those cultures than Christian cultures.
I bet its just the opposite.
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They are
completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most successful
replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede your
interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your interests.
Or "might do" something to impede your interests.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that would
aid your interests.
Any idea why green is sometimes associated with envy?
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
If taken too far, it can actually cause you problems, and impede
your interests.
e.g. "guilt" is the simple acknowledgement that someone might retaliate
against you if you do them harm.
Or going against what you perceive to be their interests. Harming
them physically, or even mentally or emotionally, could cause guilt of
one form or another.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Kevin Aylward" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 10:50:12 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Kevin Aylward wrote in alt.atheism
David Haas wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who
doesn't believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of
SF stories feel guilty if I even think about doing something
immoral. Like stealing, lying, adultery, murder etc? I would
suspect that Christians would feel the same way even if they had
never heard of the bible or God. What about "godless" primitive
cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those cultures than
Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
Emotions and morals are simple traits that have developed that allows
the replicators within you to replicate themselves more often. They
are completely selfish and logical. We observe only the most
successful replictors.
Guilt - recognition that you have done something that might impede
your interests.
Love - recognition that someone has something to aid your interests.
Hate - recognition that someone does something to impede your
interests.
Or "might do" something to impede your interests.
I have simplified it here, but expanded what the definition of "selfish"
is, and the theory, in my other post in this thread.
Envy - recognition that someone has something instead of you that
would aid your interests.
Any idea why green is sometimes associated with envy?
Pride - recognition that you have gained something that aids your
interests.
If taken too far, it can actually cause you problems, and impede
your interests.
That why we have guilt:-)
Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 09:36:29 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:46:43 GMT, David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God.
Some Christians have freely admitted that they're completely amoral,
and behave only out of fear of what their god will do to them if they
don't.
What about "godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
Most primitive cultures are very moral. Many of them have no concept
of a god who punishes for "sin", unless the sin is against the god.
They treat their fellows well because that's the kind of society they
were raised in.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Lee Hirt" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 03:12:14 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:46:43 GMT, David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
You can bet all you want, but until some evidence is provided of your
claim all it is is a guess.
--
Lee Hirt
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
and over and over again and expecting a different result."
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| User: "David Haas" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
19 Oct 2003 03:55:08 PM |
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In article <b4n5pvkq7cg34bhof3gor1b0ga4lka3chd@4ax.com>,
says...
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 09:46:43 GMT, David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote:
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc? I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
You can bet all you want, but until some evidence is provided of your
claim all it is is a guess.
Well... it seems to depend on the culture. The points is, however, you
have ignored my original question. Why was that?
Lee Hirt
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over
and over and over again and expecting a different result."
--
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
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| User: "Gulliver" |
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| Title: Re: Moral behavior |
25 Oct 2003 04:34:16 PM |
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alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.talk.creationism
Re: Moral behavior
David Haas <dhaas@nc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<MPG.19fc27971b3e2d079898da@news-server.nc.rr.com>...
If morality comes from God and the bible why do I as an Atheist who doesn't
believe in god or that the bible is anything but a bunch of SF stories feel
guilty if I even think about doing something immoral. Like stealing, lying,
adultery, murder etc?
That is because you are habitually generating mental connections
between the destructive phenomenon, and the theoretical phenomenon
that could result from them. Furthermore, throughout time, the
observation of the practical applications of these phenomenon, have
also built up within other castes or sectors within human
civilisation, which will often observe the same or similar phenomenon,
but use different names for them. ('Psychology', 'Philosophy',
'Ethics', etc.)
I would suspect that Christians would feel the same
way even if they had never heard of the bible or God. What about
"godless" primitive cultures? Do you find more rape and murder in those
cultures than Christian cultures. I bet its just the opposite.
That is difficult to say. Of course, the terms 'rape' and 'murder'
can also be ambiguous. Often a person in the present day, can believe
that it is a good thing to kill another person, if a person will put
on a green suit (military). Then it is not 'murder' if it is done in
self-defense.
(KJV)[AV] Exodus 20:13 / (NIV) Exodus 20:13
When it comes to 'rape' there can be allegations of untoward advances
by Arnold Schwartzenagger, mentioned years after the fact, just before
an election. There can be high school students, accusing teachers of
advances to get out of doing homework, and day care centers accusing
co-workers of the same in order to fire people who they don't like,
even because of ethnic differences. There are priests, some of them
bad, but definately probably some of them the victims of the fact that
they are in a large religious organisation, that can thus be more
easily sued by money-hungry lawyers.
If you wish to get extremely technical, then you can start talking
about abortion and when to end medical treatment for persons that are
possibly near the end of their lives.
When it comes to ancient cultures, you should remember that there was
such a thing as inter-tribal warfare. Today you can leave a message
on the phone and in a few minutes a policeman might arrive. Back
then, that was not possible.
The methods used for the obtaining of food by hunting were similar to
those used in warfare, although 'gathering' and intermittant
agriculture might have been different.
'Cannibalism' and 'human sacrifice' are rareities in the present day,
although they might have been rare back then, and occured mostly in
the context of what is now referred to with the terms 'warfare' and
'crime'.
It is a perplexing subject.
------
D. Haas
"Consistency requires you be as ignorant today as you were a year ago."
Bernard Berenson
'No one can be consistant enough to do anything. If you set out to do
anything, be sure that you will end up doing the opposite.' -? The
Strange Archives
-X
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