| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
22 Dec 2007 02:20:02 AM |
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MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 10:20:21 AM |
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Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 10:38:51 AM |
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On 22 dec, 09:20, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
Satori:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
So it is a Japanese word meaning "Enlightenment",
However for secular humanists like myself enlightenment has a totally
different meaning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
Believing in unlimted imensions of consciousness, is in fact not being
enlightened.
For the art of knowledge (science) has taught us that there is a limit
to what we can know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
That's all I know about the subject
Peter van Velzen
December 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 11:01:34 AM |
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On Dec 22, 12:20=A0am, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "Peter Olcott" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 11:53:59 AM |
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:c5e9d4a7-6dd0-48b6-bd16-0827d53a1b57@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 12:20 am, wrote:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights
and
satori?
Roshi: They have their origin in a common ground - the
Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this
Mind as a
birthright. But while the enlightened have awakened to it,
the
ordinary psychic has not. The important difference is in
the degree
of awareness or knowledge. The psychic is in touch with an
area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened
has seen
into Mind itself. Since the fully awakened Mind perceives
unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses
psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 12:38:56 PM |
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On Dec 22, 12:20=A0am, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 09:32:41 PM |
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On Dec 22, 12:20=A0am, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 03:18:29 PM |
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On Dec 22, 12:20=A0am, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 12:52:11 AM |
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On Dec 22, 3:20 am, wrote:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Yes and no. Probably maybe. It all depends. For instance, satori does
not explain why 2+2 equals four, while xianity states that pi is
simply 3. But we all know that 4/3 is the golden TV ratio, while the
atheists are trying to shove the 16/9 ratio down in our zen brain
throat.
But I'm pretty sure that El-Kabong has an answer, as per 14:55 in
Genesis.
Olrik
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 11:14:02 AM |
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On Dec 22, 3:20=A0am, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
Buddhism has and will always evolve.
Religion evolves from the egos of men.
We should also give credit to the Hindus for the development of
Buddhism.
The Buddha was a Hindu acetic before he became a Buddha.
Buddhism is basically Hinduism without the atman or soul.
In the early days Buddhism had no gods and this also distinguished it
from Hinduism. But in later generations of Buddhist thought gods were
added back into the equation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atman_%28Hinduism%29
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/anatman
99.9% of the Buddhists are just 'playing at Buddhism' and are so far
off the road to classical Buddhism that their practice holds little or
no resemblance to what the Buddha taught.
After all, what do monks have to do other than beg, eat, sleep,
excrete, think, not think (meditate) and write.
It is through this constant need to 'think and write' that the Pali
canon grew to 20,000+ pages and nearly 30,000 pages in China.
The canon contains nothing the Buddha wrote down.
It contains a small amount of recitation from his butler Amanda, but
nothing original from the Buddha.
The rest is all from the egos of monks.
So it is natural that Buddhism has evolved into a watered down version
of itself that the Buddha himself would hardly recognize.
When this classical Buddhism became too hard - Mahayana Buddhism was
invented.
When Mahayana Buddhism became too hard - Pure Land Buddhism and
Vajray=E2na Buddhism was invented
When Pure Land Buddhism and Vajray=E2na Buddhism became too hard - Won
Buddhism was invented. (just to name a few)
But for the average folks...meaning 99.9% of the Buddhists. Pain is
decreased in proportion to your efforts at perfecting the eightfold
path.
I believe the traditional views of Buddhist beliefs of escaping
samsara are dead as far as practical application for the most part of
society. To escape rebirth is impractical for the vast, vast majority
of Buddhists.
I'll give you an example you can all relate to.
If you are reading this you have no chance of escaping rebirth...you
are too full of passion to escape anything.
What you 'should' be doing as a self proclaimed 'serious Buddhist
practitioner' is; instead of reading and writing on the computer you
would be meditating on the three liberation's.
By meditating on emptiness, formlessness and passionlessness, this
will allow you, with a few lifetimes of diligent practice, to
recognize the three liberation's of the ego and the dharma as being
empty, the dharma as formless and this eventually the recognition of
living is an unworthy desire as our existence is characterized by
suffering.
What is the path of classical Buddhism as the Buddha taught?
=46rom our best efforts and deciphering the jumbled mess that was handed
down to us it was:
To become a renunciate and practice the 4 noble truths
http://www.4truths.com/
and through the perfection of the eightfold path
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html
to free oneself from the 10 fetters that bind a person to cyclic
existence
http://buddhism.about.com/od/keyconcepts/a/Fetters.htm
and thus become an arhat and enlightened
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arhat
and through a few lifetimes of such practice to extinguish
reincarnation, leave the cycle of samsara
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html
and reach nirvana.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana
=2E..and that is how the pain of life finally ceases. (as the story
goes)
Is this all true?
I don't know? I'm an agnostic freethinker. I only can report on what
can be tested.
Personally, I draw from many spiritual traditions myself, including
monotheism, Buddhism, Taoism as well as atheism. (secular humanism)
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D4.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D504.0
My main focus of my Buddhist practice is concentrated on the 3 pillars
of Buddhism that are common to all schools of Buddhist practice: I've
settled on the essence of Buddhism and that is what I work on and find
much peace with this type of simplified practice.
3 Pillars of Buddhism
1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self
awareness of our own true nature.
2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing non-
clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.
3- The development of compassion for others.
Buddhists are not required to believe or not believe in god, so anyone
can make use of this philosophy irrespective of their religious
beliefs or lack thereof. Buddha was not a god and just a man, so not
need to worship him unless you are a 'Pure Land Buddhist.'
In addition to the 3 pillars, we can use the eightfold path to guide
us.
The Eightfold Path
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
How can you differentiate right from wrong?
By peace.
You learn what destroys your peace and the peace of others as well as
what promotes you inner peace and the inner peace of others.
Do you need a teacher for that?
Or the Pope to tell you?
Or just listen to peace as the best teacher?
The 5 precepts are the 'commandments' more or less for Buddhists.
Although you are not commanded to do a thing. If you wish to live at
peace, then proceed the best you can - but it is your choice.
No one to boss you other than you...you alone are in control of your
inner peace.
The Five Precepts
1. Refrain from Killing:
2. Refrain from Stealing:
3. Refrain from Sexual Misconduct:
4. Refrain from False Speech:
5. Refrain from the Use of Intoxicants:
Buddhism provides this tool, which is just one out of the many tools I
use for peace development. For once we have found a contentment within
and with all and are at peace - we are progressing on the road to
enlightenment.
You can also tell when you have "arrived" by your practice telling you
so. Does your practice revolve around actually practicing what you
have learned to generate peace within or are you on a never ending
journey of always looking and never finding?
Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for
themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice.
I have no interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing
reincarnation.
These "fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are not authentic or
natural - the persons actions are based on fear or negative
consequences otherwise they would not do them.
My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my
peace - it is my choice.
I enjoy life and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes
about as part of the process.
The Taoists have a saying for this, "fleas come with the dog."
So, I accept there are growth pains as a fair trade off for the
privilege of living and I would enjoy any reincarnation if given the
chance.
Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor
by lending me support to live a life at peace. I do not practice
Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism for my
own peace generation in THIS LIFE.
I'd like to point out that my views are not the orthodox or
traditional views on these subjects as I am an Agnostic Freethinker.
Also see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=3D9.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Awaken21" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 09:28:57 PM |
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On Dec 23, 12:14=A0pm, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
The canon contains nothing the Buddha wrote down.
It contains a small amount of recitation from his butler Amanda, but
nothing original from the Buddha.
The rest is all from the egos of monks.
The method used to record what the Buddha said is an oral method
(tradition) in which many monks memorize the exact words of the person
they are recording and then hand teach and hand down those exact
memorized sermons word for word from monk to monk. That method is more
accurate than written accounts, according to scientists who study this
kind of stuff.
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| User: "" |
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23 Dec 2007 09:45:18 PM |
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On Dec 23, 9:14=A0am, V <vf...@aol.com> wrote:
to free oneself from the 10 fetters that bind a person to cyclic
existence
http://buddhism.about.com/od/keyconcepts/a/Fetters.htm
This is an interesting link and an interesting teaching, but it does
not give any references to the scriptures it claims to be talking
about. Can you give us those references, please?
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| User: "Michael Gordge" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 02:39:05 AM |
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On Dec 22, 5:20=A0pm, wrote:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =A0They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =A0But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =A0The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. =A0The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =A0Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
***** EWE FUCKING RETARDED QUEER FUCKING LEFTIST CUNTS, *****.
MG
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 08:45:16 AM |
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"Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:af6ee595-6974-4ed5-a4ae-f015bc3b7339@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 5:20 pm, wrote:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
***** EWE FUCKING RETARDED QUEER FUCKING LEFTIST CUNTS, *****.
MG
I guess that would apply to me, because what Kapleau is stating is the
answer to your constant question "what is reality".
Your response indicates how far off you are with your current pov.
What you also fail to appreciate is how some people are encouraged, who see
such gutterisms, to keep replying, because they see a need in you.
Unless you are of course, looking for attention.
BOfL
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| User: "Syd M." |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 04:02:49 AM |
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On Dec 22, 3:39 am, Michael Gordge <mikegor...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
On Dec 22, 5:20 pm, wrote:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
***** EWE FUCKING RETARDED QUEER FUCKING LEFTIST CUNTS, *****.
MG
HO! <WHACK!!!>
PDW
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: MORE FROM KRAPLEAU IN BIG BOASTER CAPS |
22 Dec 2007 10:53:53 AM |
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On Dec 22, 8:20=EF=BF=BDam, wrote:
Questioner: =EF=BF=BDIs there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =EF=BF=BDThey have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =EF=BF=BDBut while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =EF=BF=BDThe important difference is in the degr=
ee
of awareness or knowledge. =EF=BF=BDThe psychic is in touch with an area o=
f
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =EF=BF=BDSince the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimit=
ed
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KRAPLEAU IN BIG BOASTER CAPS |
23 Dec 2007 06:04:20 PM |
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"John Jones" <jonescardiff@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a3014930-9043-4942-a6b8-84d49382fc7f@s26g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 8:20?am, wrote:
Questioner: ?Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: ?They have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. ?But while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. ?The important difference is in the degree
of awareness or knowledge. ?The psychic is in touch with an area of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. ?Since the fully awakened Mind perceives unlimited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)
The clue is in the dialouge.
The awakened has seen into "the mind itself", not from "within the mind
itself".
The difference between cosmic consciousness and self realization.
BOfL
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| User: "John Jones" |
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| Title: MORE FROM KRAPLEAU IN BIG BOASTER CAPS |
22 Dec 2007 12:30:15 PM |
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On Dec 22, 4:53=C2=A0pm, John Jones <jonescard...@aol.com> wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:20=EF=BF=BDam, wrote:
Questioner: =EF=BF=BDIs there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Roshi: =EF=BF=BDThey have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =EF=BF=BDBut while the enlightened have awakened to it, the
ordinary psychic has not. =EF=BF=BDThe important difference is in the de=
gree
of awareness or knowledge. =EF=BF=BDThe psychic is in touch with an area=
of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =EF=BF=BDSince the fully awakened Mind perceives unlim=
ited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KRAPLEAU IN BIG BOASTER CAPS |
22 Dec 2007 09:30:43 PM |
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On Dec 22, 10:30=C2=A0am, John Jones <jonescard...@aol.com> wrote:
On Dec 22, 4:53=C2=A0pm, John Jones <jonescard...@aol.com> wrote:
On Dec 22, 8:20=EF=BF=BDam, wrote:
Questioner: =EF=BF=BDIs there a difference between psychic insights an=
d
satori?
Roshi: =EF=BF=BDThey have their origin in a common ground - the Mind.
Everyone, without exception, [Equality Wisdom] has this Mind as a
birthright. =EF=BF=BDBut while the enlightened have awakened to it, th=
e
ordinary psychic has not. =EF=BF=BDThe important difference is in the =
degree
of awareness or knowledge. =EF=BF=BDThe psychic is in touch with an ar=
ea of
mind inaccessible to ordinary consciousness; the awakened has seen
into Mind itself. =EF=BF=BDSince the fully awakened Mind perceives unl=
imited
dimensions of consciousness, it naturally encompasses psychic
perceptions.
(From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55.)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3DkZAThB1BiRk
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 02:33:32 AM |
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:20:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Questioner: Is there a difference betw
HO! <whack!>
---
"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers..."
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 02:54:00 AM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 08:48:00 AM |
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"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 09:42:31 AM |
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On Dec 22, 6:48=A0am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up with=
this:
Questioner: =A0Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. =A0The right question is, is there a differenc=
e
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said yo=
u
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
Third Questioner: Speaking of Cayce, I have heard that he made a
prediction that sometime within the next forty years California will
be destroyed by an earthquake or flood. Do you place any stock in
such prophecies?
Roshi: Unless a psychic can give the precise time of a future
occurence - that is, pin it down to the exact year and day and hour -
I would place little faith in his prediction. This is not to say he
is a charlatan, but that whatever powers he possesses are limited.
Let me continue. Although the psychic is able to contact dimensions
inaccessible to the ordinary person, he has no real understanding of
the source of his power. Moreover, his "gift" does not effect in him
the attrition of ego or transformation of the personality. He is
still dominated by the notion of a self opposed to other selves. By
contrast, with genuine enlightenment the notion of an ego-I is
dispelled and the dualistic distinction of self and not-self is
transcended. The consequences of this are enormous.
[End Quote From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55]
.
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| User: "Peter Olcott" |
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| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 09:50:08 AM |
|
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<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:d6b938c6-435e-4206-848f-0e9f4a0d4d64@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 6:48 am, "brian fletcher"
<brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism,
bloodied us up with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic
insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is
there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody
recently said you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many
other catagories of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
|No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
|Third Questioner: Speaking of Cayce, I have heard that he
made a
|prediction that sometime within the next forty years
California will
|be destroyed by an earthquake or flood. Do you place any
stock in
|such prophecies?
|Roshi: Unless a psychic can give the precise time of a
future
|occurence - that is, pin it down to the exact year and day
and hour -
|I would place little faith in his prediction. This is not
to say he
|is a charlatan, but that whatever powers he possesses are
limited.
|Let me continue. Although the psychic is able to contact
dimensions
|inaccessible to the ordinary person, he has no real
understanding of
|the source of his power. Moreover, his "gift" does not
effect in him
|the attrition of ego or transformation of the personality.
He is
|still dominated by the notion of a self opposed to other
selves. By
|contrast, with genuine enlightenment the notion of an ego-I
is
|dispelled and the dualistic distinction of self and
not-self is
|transcended. The consequences of this are enormous.
[End Quote From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55]
Maybe you aren't such a clueless schmuck after all.
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 12:00:52 AM |
|
|
"Peter Olcott" <NoSpam@SeeScreen.com> wrote in message
news:Rmabj.20607$db7.798@newsfe12.phx...
<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:d6b938c6-435e-4206-848f-0e9f4a0d4d64@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 6:48 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up
with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said
you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
|No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
|Third Questioner: Speaking of Cayce, I have heard that he made a
|prediction that sometime within the next forty years California will
|be destroyed by an earthquake or flood. Do you place any stock in
|such prophecies?
|Roshi: Unless a psychic can give the precise time of a future
|occurence - that is, pin it down to the exact year and day and hour -
|I would place little faith in his prediction. This is not to say he
|is a charlatan, but that whatever powers he possesses are limited.
|Let me continue. Although the psychic is able to contact dimensions
|inaccessible to the ordinary person, he has no real understanding of
|the source of his power. Moreover, his "gift" does not effect in him
|the attrition of ego or transformation of the personality. He is
|still dominated by the notion of a self opposed to other selves. By
|contrast, with genuine enlightenment the notion of an ego-I is
|dispelled and the dualistic distinction of self and not-self is
|transcended. The consequences of this are enormous.
[End Quote From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55]
Maybe you aren't such a clueless schmuck after all.
Nobody is clueless.They just mistake clues for answers.
And the beat goes on ....
BOfL
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
22 Dec 2007 11:59:17 PM |
|
|
<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:d6b938c6-435e-4206-848f-0e9f4a0d4d64@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 6:48 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said
you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
***I agree and am clear where Kapleau comes from and his role.
***A very aware individual .
***Regarding prophecies, my variation is "If he knew precisely, he wouldnt
tell, because to know to such precision he would have full ***consciousness
not only of the events and the implications". He would have been well
initiated into the discipline of the law of non inteference.
***Both the giver and seeker of prophecies are simple looking for evidence
of some deeper aspect of themselves (naturally so), but are looking in
***the wrong.direction
BOfL
Third Questioner: Speaking of Cayce, I have heard that he made a
prediction that sometime within the next forty years California will
be destroyed by an earthquake or flood. Do you place any stock in
such prophecies?
Roshi: Unless a psychic can give the precise time of a future
occurence - that is, pin it down to the exact year and day and hour -
I would place little faith in his prediction. This is not to say he
is a charlatan, but that whatever powers he possesses are limited.
Let me continue. Although the psychic is able to contact dimensions
inaccessible to the ordinary person, he has no real understanding of
the source of his power. Moreover, his "gift" does not effect in him
the attrition of ego or transformation of the personality. He is
still dominated by the notion of a self opposed to other selves. By
contrast, with genuine enlightenment the notion of an ego-I is
dispelled and the dualistic distinction of self and not-self is
transcended. The consequences of this are enormous.
[End Quote From Zen: Dawn in the West, p. 55]
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 02:59:55 AM |
|
|
On Dec 22, 9:59=A0pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:d6b938c6-435e-4206-848f-0e9f4a0d4d64@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 6:48 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up wi=
th
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference=
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said
you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories o=
f
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
***I agree and am clear where Kapleau comes from and his role.
***A very aware individual .
***Regarding prophecies, my variation is "If he knew precisely, he wouldnt=
tell, because to know to such precision he would have full ***consciousnes=
s
not only of the events and the implications". He would have been well
initiated into the discipline of the law of non inteference.
***Both the giver and seeker of prophecies are simple looking for evidence=
of some deeper aspect of themselves (naturally so), but are looking in
***the wrong.direction
No, I'm afraid the Prime Directive does NOT apply to true Zen
Masters. The reason is that it implies a sense of separateness and
"ego," which is precisely what the Zen Master has overcome. In other
words, the "law of non-interference" is a man-made law, very
appropriate in the context of unenlightened human beings, but not in
the context of enlightenment.
You see, what Kapleau said is that a display of powers for self-
gratification is wrong, but he would not condemn a righteous use of
powers to relieve suffering. One of the greatest causes of suffering
is disbelief in the spiritual reality, so any use of powers to
demonstrate it to someone who needs that demonstration would be
approved. It might sometimes be a fine line between this and self-
gratification, however.
.
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|
|
| User: "brian fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 05:31:48 PM |
|
|
<pjmutnick@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:edcfeea3-4bb7-4886-86f3-afe6d60cf2c2@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 9:59 pm, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
< > wrote in message
news:d6b938c6-435e-4206-848f-0e9f4a0d4d64@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 6:48 am, "brian fletcher" <brian...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <addr...@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A0E935C7D03vicman@207.115.33.102...
One fine day in alt.atheism, bloodied us up
with
this:
Questioner: Is there a difference between psychic insights and
satori?
Wrong question, as usual. The right question is, is there a difference
between psychic insights and reality?
Because it is not "your" question? I can see why somebody recently said
you
would have a friend in Gordge.
Psychic gravity draws limited bigotry as well as many other catagories
of
belief, together.
You might enjoy comparing notes.
BOfL
No, actually, he makes a good point, which Kapleau answers.
***I agree and am clear where Kapleau comes from and his role.
***A very aware individual .
***Regarding prophecies, my variation is "If he knew precisely, he wouldnt
tell, because to know to such precision he would have full
***consciousness
not only of the events and the implications". He would have been well
initiated into the discipline of the law of non inteference.
***Both the giver and seeker of prophecies are simple looking for evidence
of some deeper aspect of themselves (naturally so), but are looking in
***the wrong.direction
No, I'm afraid the Prime Directive does NOT apply to true Zen
Masters.
***And true Zen masters are not 'truly' enlightened, but have discovered the
'cosmic' or 'universal' consciousness.
The reason is that it implies a sense of separateness and
"ego," which is precisely what the Zen Master has overcome.
***Exactly, which is what the above refers to.Below their level of
consciousness, 'ego' as it is traditionally understood, is an attempt of
"authentic ***self" to express its true identity A 'sense' of self in the
crowd. Above that level, the true nature and originality of self is
realized.
In other
words, the "law of non-interference" is a man-made law, very
appropriate in the context of unenlightened human beings, but not in
the context of enlightenment.
***Like many such laws, it was made by the law givers, as a guide for those
that need external direction. Similar to 'pre school' directives (No e-***go
here, because we 'all-go'...or have already been.
You see, what Kapleau said is that a display of powers for self-
gratification is wrong, but he would not condemn a righteous use of
powers to relieve suffering.
***Of course. In tune with such cosmic consciousness. One could discect that
view "from above" and suggest that 'relieving suffering' is not only ***self
gratifying, but also based on a limited awareness of the cause.
***If that "resonates" with anyone, then that is from your 'authentic self'.
***To illustrate the point, Hitler was an extreme example of using power to
relieve suffering...For "his" people, and then for the rest of the world.
***He also studied Zen. The swastika is a symboloc`clue.
***I am not 'having a go at Zen', just elucidating.
One of the greatest causes of suffering
is disbelief in the spiritual reality, so any use of powers to
demonstrate it to someone who needs that demonstration would be
approved. It might sometimes be a fine line between this and self-
gratification, however.
***Close. The necessary cause of all suffering is belief per se.Belief is
integral with the cosmic consciousness.
***To seek 'self gratification' is a natural stage. It is only when one has
moved on from "that line of enquiry", and has experienced the
***consequences can one see the real purpose."from" the real self.
BOfL
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| User: "Kenneth Doyle" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 04:12:25 AM |
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|
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:59:55 -0800, pjmutnick wrote:
One of the greatest causes of suffering is disbelief in the spiritual
reality
What a ridiculous thing to say. Go and ask the poor bastards under
Mother Teresa's 'care' if they believe in a spiritual reality.
.
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| User: "Julian" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 06:04:15 AM |
|
|
"Kenneth Doyle" <nobody@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:dwqbj.27073$CN4.16169@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:59:55 -0800, pjmutnick wrote:
One of the greatest causes of suffering is disbelief in the spiritual
reality
What a ridiculous thing to say. Go and ask the poor bastards under
Mother Teresa's 'care' if they believe in a spiritual reality.
"Mother Theresa died in 1978. Her recent "death" merely marked the passing
of the fourth and final imitator lined up by the Catholic Church to play the
role of the "Saint of the Gutters".
When the real Mother died the Catholic Church was worried.
Through her work in the slums of Calcutta, Mother Theresa had provided
the church with immeasurable positive publicity around the world.
The Vatican Bank held data showing the saintly image of Mother Theresa
was responsible for the generation of hundreds of millions of dollars in
donations to the church.
Put bluntly, the Vatican Bank viewed Mother Theresa as a goldmine -
as big as, if not bigger, than a major rock or movies star.
Now she was dead and the goldmine was to close. Or was it?
While news of Mother Theresa's death was hushed up - even from the Pope
himself - a proposal was drawn up by the Vatican Bank .It called for a
lookalike to take the place of the dead Mother and continue her world travel
and fundraising.
A highly confidential worldwide search was undertaken and in the end four
lookalikes were found.
But the plan needed the Pope's approval, if not his blessing. The plan
suffered major setback when it was presented to the then
Pope Paul VI.
The Holy Father read the briefing note and promptly dropped dead from shock.
Even the new Pope John Paul disputed the fact he had given his approval.
When shown the letter of authority he claimed he had been tricked into
signing it as routine paperwork. John Paul became agitated and threatened
to blow lid off the scheme publicly.
The handful of senior figures within the Vatican who knew of the plan
decided John Paul was serious in threatening to expose their ruse and
decided he must be killed.
When Pope John Paul II was elected he was told nothing of the scheme and to
this day never knew the woman he greeted regularly on her visits to Rome or
in Calcutta was not the real Mother Theresa.
Apart from the real Mother's death in 1978, the other "Mothers" died in June
1984, May 1989, December 1992 and of course September 1997.
As the church hierarchy grew more comfortable with the look-alike scheme,
greater risk would be take, such as sending out a number of Mother Theresa
at once to maximise fundraising and publicity.
In almost 20 years the scheme had only one hiccup.
In August 1982 "Mother Theresa" was taping an appearance on the Johnny
Carson Tonight Show in Los Angeles while at the same time she was appearing
at a special mass in Dijon, France.
Through sheer luck nobody uncovered the slip-up."
.
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| User: "brian fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: MORE FROM KAPLEAU |
23 Dec 2007 06:00:35 PM |
|
|
"Julian" <Julianlzb87@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZdqdnbccadBc0_PanZ2dnUVZ8qClnZ2d@bt.com...
"Kenneth Doyle" <nobody@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:dwqbj.27073$CN4.16169@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:59:55 -0800, pjmutnick wrote:
One of the greatest causes of suffering is disbelief in the spiritual
reality
What a ridiculous thing to say. Go and ask the poor bastards under
Mother Teresa's 'care' if they believe in a spiritual reality.
"Mother Theresa died in 1978. Her recent "death" merely marked the passing
of the fourth and final imitator lined up by the Catholic Church to play
the
role of the "Saint of the Gutters".
When the real Mother died the Catholic Church was worried.
Through her work in the slums of Calcutta, Mother Theresa had provided
the church with immeasurable positive publicity around the world.
The Vatican Bank held data showing the saintly image of Mother Theresa
was responsible for the generation of hundreds of millions of dollars in
donations to the church.
Put bluntly, the Vatican Bank viewed Mother Theresa as a goldmine -
as big as, if not bigger, than a major rock or movies star.
Now she was dead and the goldmine was to close. Or was it?
While news of Mother Theresa's death was hushed up - even from the Pope
himself - a proposal was drawn up by the Vatican Bank .It called for a
lookalike to take the place of the dead Mother and continue her world
travel
and fundraising.
A highly confidential worldwide search was undertaken and in the end four
lookalikes were found.
But the plan needed the Pope's approval, if not his blessing. The plan
suffered major setback when it was presented to the then
Pope Paul VI.
The Holy Father read the briefing note and promptly dropped dead from
shock.
Even the new Pope John Paul disputed the fact he had given his approval.
When shown the letter of authority he claimed he had been tricked into
signing it as routine paperwork. John Paul became agitated and threatened
to blow lid off the scheme publicly.
The handful of senior figures within the Vatican who knew of the plan
decided John Paul was serious in threatening to expose their ruse and
decided he must be killed.
When Pope John Paul II was elected he was told nothing of the scheme and
to
this day never knew the woman he greeted regularly on her visits to Rome
or
in Calcutta was not the real Mother Theresa.
Apart from the real Mother's death in 1978, the other "Mothers" died in
June
1984, May 1989, December 1992 and of course September 1997.
As the church hierarchy grew more comfortable with the look-alike scheme,
greater risk would be take, such as sending out a number of Mother Theresa
at once to maximise fundraising and publicity.
In almost 20 years the scheme had only one hiccup.
In August 1982 "Mother Theresa" was taping an appearance on the Johnny
Carson Tonight Show in Los Angeles while at the same time she was
appearing
at a special mass in Dijon, France.
Through sheer luck nobody uncovered the slip-up."
Even if this is not accurate, it makes sense.
BOfL
.
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