Religions > Atheism > Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Alonta" |
| Date: |
29 Nov 2003 07:59:22 PM |
| Object: |
Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and
creates a tense situation.'
The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local
government commission studies it.
Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: 'Their work is not
prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and
prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian
Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.' He said the
Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit
clandestinely during the Soviet era.
Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said
the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked
Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of
Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was 'vital to save an
important part of our archives'. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash
goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.
Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern
over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei
Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon
Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or 'baptising
the dead' is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the
beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with
the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone -
Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.
'Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul
of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these
rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of
graves by Satanists.'
But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said:
'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for
their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul
of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or
to reject it.'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091318,00.html
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| User: "Ivan Grozny" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 03:20:39 PM |
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"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
I think I will write a story about a guy who goes around Russia buying up
dead souls.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:00:31 AM |
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On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 21:20:39 GMT, "Ivan Grozny"
<deegxnhyfr@oubcfwe.com>, Message ID:
<HgOyb.7961$_j6.2295287@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
I think I will write a story about a guy who goes around Russia buying up
dead souls.
Hans the Cobbler......
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
30 Nov 2003 02:00:02 AM |
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"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and
creates a tense situation.'
Charming practice they've got. Still, I'm afraid all their effort is in
vain - I hear Joseph Smith has posthumously renounced his beliefs and
converted to Buddhism.
[...]
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 09:51:35 AM |
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 08:00:02 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com>, Message ID:
<6shyb.2176$cj2.1057@news02.roc.ny> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and
creates a tense situation.'
Charming practice they've got. Still, I'm afraid all their effort is in
vain - I hear Joseph Smith has posthumously renounced his beliefs and
converted to Buddhism.
Nah, he's running hell and has access to all the 'bad' girls....
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Gaylord_Faulker" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 03:23:19 PM |
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"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
.
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| User: "Lee Paulson" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
02 Dec 2003 09:16:49 AM |
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"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
--
Regards,
Lee the James, uM, feminist
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence--Thomas H. Huxley
.
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| User: "Gaylord_Faulker" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
02 Dec 2003 12:02:22 PM |
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"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection? Is it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
.
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| User: "Lee Paulson" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
03 Dec 2003 09:07:50 AM |
|
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"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection? Is it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself. If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose it, I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
--
Regards,
Lee, The James
Equus, Pliohippus, Protohippus, Miohippus, Mesohippus, Orohippus. Evolution
is just a theory. So is gravity.
.
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| User: "Gaylord_Faulker" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
03 Dec 2003 02:07:05 PM |
|
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"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a%mzb.2452$Qd6.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the
dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne
solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection? Is it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself.
Do you believe in Voodoo, then? That the acts of Mormons can harm the souls
of those they baptize by proxy? This seems to be the subtext of your post.
If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose it, I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
What that incoherent blurb has to do with why you or anyone else should be
upset that Mormons believe in and practice baptism for the dead is anyone's
guess. If you don't believe in religion as being anything other than
"voodoo" then what we do must be harmless. That renders you a nosy
busibody.
--
Regards,
Lee, The James
Equus, Pliohippus, Protohippus, Miohippus, Mesohippus, Orohippus.
Evolution
is just a theory. So is gravity.
.
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| User: "Lee Paulson" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
04 Dec 2003 07:14:18 AM |
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"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:0d-dnVX2CLz231Oi4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a%mzb.2452$Qd6.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians
in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the
dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne
solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates
with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another
alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection? Is it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself.
Do you believe in Voodoo, then? That the acts of Mormons can harm the
souls
of those they baptize by proxy? This seems to be the subtext of your
post.
I believe Voodoo is as valid a religion as any other, yes. And no, I don't
believe in souls; ergo, no one dead is harmed. Nonetheless, it is an insult
to many living people.
Don't read between the lines. I'm a fairly straightforward person.
If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose it,
I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
What that incoherent blurb has to do with why you or anyone else should be
upset that Mormons believe in and practice baptism for the dead is
anyone's
guess. If you don't believe in religion as being anything other than
"voodoo" then what we do must be harmless. That renders you a nosy
busibody.
I was responding to your foolish "How would some empty (or even Satanic)
ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? "
You seem a pleasant sort. Have another cup of coffee.
--
Regards,
Lee the James, uM, feminist
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence--Thomas H. Huxley
.
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| User: "Gaylord_Faulker" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
04 Dec 2003 11:05:56 AM |
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"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqnbva$207i95$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:0d-dnVX2CLz231Oi4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a%mzb.2452$Qd6.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what
it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians
in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the
dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne
solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates
with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another
alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection? Is
it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself.
Do you believe in Voodoo, then? That the acts of Mormons can harm the
souls
of those they baptize by proxy? This seems to be the subtext of your
post.
I believe Voodoo is as valid a religion as any other, yes.>
Based on what? I hope that means you spend as much time on
alt.religion.voodoo as you do carping about Mormons.
And no, I don't
believe in souls; ergo, no one dead is harmed. Nonetheless, it is an
insult
to many living people.>
Why should it be? Either the religious practice is of God or it's an empty
gesture that makes absolutely difference on a person's soul. Either way it
can't possible matter (except of course to you and others who argue that
it's a Satanic ritutual that somehow separates the dead soul from God
through who knows what means).
Don't read between the lines. I'm a fairly straightforward person.>
Everyone has a subtext, if only subconscious.
If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose
it,
I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
What that incoherent blurb has to do with why you or anyone else should
be
upset that Mormons believe in and practice baptism for the dead is
anyone's
guess. If you don't believe in religion as being anything other than
"voodoo" then what we do must be harmless. That renders you a nosy
busibody.
I was responding to your foolish "How would some empty (or even Satanic)
ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? ">
But you didn't respond to it all. You confirmed the obvious--that an empty
religious act, if that's what it is, can't possibly harm the soul in
question.
You seem a pleasant sort. Have another cup of coffee.>
Don't mind if I do!
--
Regards,
Lee the James, uM, feminist
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence--Thomas H. Huxley
.
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| User: "Lee Paulson" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
04 Dec 2003 11:36:00 AM |
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"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:pJqdnVWo_f_o9FKiRVn-iw@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqnbva$207i95$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:0d-dnVX2CLz231Oi4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a%mzb.2452$Qd6.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at
what
it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead
Russians
in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for
the
dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne
solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which
case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it
originates
with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another
alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection?
Is
it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself.
Do you believe in Voodoo, then? That the acts of Mormons can harm the
souls
of those they baptize by proxy? This seems to be the subtext of your
post.
I believe Voodoo is as valid a religion as any other, yes.>
Based on what? I hope that means you spend as much time on
alt.religion.voodoo as you do carping about Mormons.
I carp about LDS? Shame on you. Please provide some evidence where I've
carped about LDS.
And no, I don't
believe in souls; ergo, no one dead is harmed. Nonetheless, it is an
insult
to many living people.>
Why should it be? Either the religious practice is of God or it's an
empty
gesture that makes absolutely difference on a person's soul. Either way
it
can't possible matter (except of course to you and others who argue that
it's a Satanic ritutual that somehow separates the dead soul from God
through who knows what means).
Don't read between the lines. I'm a fairly straightforward person.>
Everyone has a subtext, if only subconscious.
That's absurd. Please post proof of that also.
If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in
big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose
it,
I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the
LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
What that incoherent blurb has to do with why you or anyone else
should
be
upset that Mormons believe in and practice baptism for the dead is
anyone's
guess. If you don't believe in religion as being anything other than
"voodoo" then what we do must be harmless. That renders you a nosy
busibody.
I was responding to your foolish "How would some empty (or even Satanic)
ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? ">
But you didn't respond to it all. You confirmed the obvious--that an
empty
religious act, if that's what it is, can't possibly harm the soul in
question.
You seem a pleasant sort. Have another cup of coffee.>
Don't mind if I do!
Perhaps you could post the proof asked for above while you drink that cup.
--
Regards,
Lee the James, uM, feminist
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence--Thomas H. Huxley
.
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| User: "Clovis Lark" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
04 Dec 2003 12:05:39 PM |
|
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In alt.religion.mormon Lee Paulson <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote:
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:pJqdnVWo_f_o9FKiRVn-iw@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqnbva$207i95$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:0d-dnVX2CLz231Oi4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a%mzb.2452$Qd6.2418@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:ccGdnYQzK9QvTlGiRVn-gQ@aros.net...
"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at
what
it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead
Russians
in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for
the
dead
is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne
solely
by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which
case
they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it
originates
with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
How would some empty (or even Satanic) ritual performed by another
alter
God's judgment of an individual? I fail to see the connection?
Is
it
something like Voodoo in your mind?
All religion is like voodoo, which is a religion in and of itself.
Do you believe in Voodoo, then? That the acts of Mormons can harm the
souls
of those they baptize by proxy? This seems to be the subtext of your
post.
I believe Voodoo is as valid a religion as any other, yes.>
Based on what? I hope that means you spend as much time on
alt.religion.voodoo as you do carping about Mormons.
I carp about LDS? Shame on you. Please provide some evidence where I've
carped about LDS.
Do you really think you're going to get a response? remember, you're
dealing with a lawyer...
And no, I don't
believe in souls; ergo, no one dead is harmed. Nonetheless, it is an
insult
to many living people.>
Why should it be? Either the religious practice is of God or it's an
empty
gesture that makes absolutely difference on a person's soul. Either way
it
can't possible matter (except of course to you and others who argue that
it's a Satanic ritutual that somehow separates the dead soul from God
through who knows what means).
Don't read between the lines. I'm a fairly straightforward person.>
Everyone has a subtext, if only subconscious.
That's absurd. Please post proof of that also.
If God
requires you to do some things but you do another, you must be in
big
trouble. If you were tricked by Satan or worse, deliberately chose
it,
I
guess you'd go to hell. After all, if you deliberately reject the
LDS
faith, you can't make the CK, correct?
What that incoherent blurb has to do with why you or anyone else
should
be
upset that Mormons believe in and practice baptism for the dead is
anyone's
guess. If you don't believe in religion as being anything other than
"voodoo" then what we do must be harmless. That renders you a nosy
busibody.
I was responding to your foolish "How would some empty (or even Satanic)
ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? ">
But you didn't respond to it all. You confirmed the obvious--that an
empty
religious act, if that's what it is, can't possibly harm the soul in
question.
You seem a pleasant sort. Have another cup of coffee.>
Don't mind if I do!
Perhaps you could post the proof asked for above while you drink that cup.
--
Regards,
Lee the James, uM, feminist
The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence--Thomas H. Huxley
.
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| User: "Al" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
04 Dec 2003 03:46:51 PM |
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"Lee Paulson" <lrpaulson@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<bqnbva$207i95$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de>...
I was responding to your foolish "How would some empty (or even Satanic)
ritual performed by another alter
God's judgment of an individual? "
You seem a pleasant sort. Have another cup of coffee.
A shot or two of Wild Turkey may be a better suggestion!!
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:09:12 AM |
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|
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:16:49 -0500, "Lee Paulson"
<lrpaulson@earthlink.net>, Message ID:
<bqiad2$224lte$1@ID-146277.news.uni-berlin.de> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> wrote in message
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
There's a third choice--it's recognized by God, but it originates with
Satan. Then those dead people are in big trouble.
"God" is Satan. The Bible indicates "God" lies all over the place and
generates much misery and destruction while "Satan" harmed no one and
got cursed for telling the mythical Adam and Eve the truth.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "+-" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 09:28:53 PM |
|
|
Gaylord_Faulker wrote:
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
how is it their right to baptise someone without their content. The choice
of good or evil is still just that, a choice, and buying of souls is just
evil.
.
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|
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| User: "Gaylord_Faulker" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
02 Dec 2003 12:01:12 PM |
|
|
"+-" <+-@no.net> wrote in message news:DATyb.5$336.205@news.ntplx.net...
Gaylord_Faulker wrote:
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
how is it their right to baptise someone without their content.>
Do you really believe they are baptizing the souls of the dead? If not,
there's no harm. It's just an empty ritual. On the other hand, if you
believe God recognizes and makes effectual the baptism, thus benefitting the
person being baptized for, there's still no harm.
The choice
of good or evil is still just that, a choice, and buying of souls is just
evil.>
Christ bought our souls with his blood. Was that evil too?
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:07:45 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:01:12 -0700, "Gaylord_Faulker"
<Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net>, Message ID: <7cednaIhEpf2TlGiRVn-jg@aros.net>
wrote in alt.atheism;
"+-" <+-@no.net> wrote in message news:DATyb.5$336.205@news.ntplx.net...
Gaylord_Faulker wrote:
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is
a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd
do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
how is it their right to baptise someone without their content.>
Do you really believe they are baptizing the souls of the dead? If not,
there's no harm. It's just an empty ritual. On the other hand, if you
believe God recognizes and makes effectual the baptism, thus benefitting the
person being baptized for, there's still no harm.
Or is lots of harm which is, by definition, good.
The choice
of good or evil is still just that, a choice, and buying of souls is just
evil.>
Christ bought our souls with his blood. Was that evil too?
Christ is the epitome of evil.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Cunneen" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 11:17:40 PM |
|
|
how is it their right to baptise someone without their content. The choice
of good or evil is still just that, a choice, and buying of souls is just
evil.
Buying NAMES, not souls. Where did this "buying souls" spin come from??? Who
is supposed to be "selling souls" to them???
They use the names in their ceremonies for "baptising for the dead." As far as
I know, there's no charge associated with an ancestor being baptised, is there?
So there's no "selling souls back" either.
I still think it's paranoia.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:06:27 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:28:53 -0500, +- <+-@no.net>, Message ID:
<DATyb.5$336.205@news.ntplx.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
Gaylord_Faulker wrote:
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
how is it their right to baptise someone without their content. The choice
of good or evil is still just that, a choice, and buying of souls is just
evil.
The superstition industry does lots of evil that they say is 'good.'
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "kristinelund" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 03:56:09 PM |
|
|
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the names of
dead russians. It's also bisarre.
"Gaylord_Faulker" <Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net> skrev i melding
news:o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net...
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
.
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 04:42:57 PM |
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|
"kristinelund" <dolores_88@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no:
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the
names of dead russians. It's also bisarre.
They did the same thing to Jews who died in WW2 concentration camps. I
wouldn't be surprised to find Chief Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse in their
names list.
--
Dr. Smartass
BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"When you're slapped, you'll take it and like it!" -- Sam Spade
.
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| User: "+-" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 09:29:26 PM |
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Doc Smartass wrote:
"kristinelund" <dolores_88@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no:
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the
names of dead russians. It's also bisarre.
They did the same thing to Jews who died in WW2 concentration camps. I
wouldn't be surprised to find Chief Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse in their
names list.
at which point they should have been banned as a religion...
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:05:43 AM |
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On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:29:26 -0500, +- <+-@no.net>, Message ID:
<8BTyb.6$336.132@news.ntplx.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
Doc Smartass wrote:
"kristinelund" <dolores_88@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no:
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the
names of dead russians. It's also bisarre.
They did the same thing to Jews who died in WW2 concentration camps. I
wouldn't be surprised to find Chief Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse in their
names list.
at which point they should have been banned as a religion...
Why?
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Clovis Lark" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 07:33:44 PM |
|
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In alt.religion.mormon Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
"kristinelund" <dolores_88@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no:
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the
names of dead russians. It's also bisarre.
They did the same thing to Jews who died in WW2 concentration camps. I
wouldn't be surprised to find Chief Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse in their
names list.
From SLWeekly:
Fans of Russian literature will immediately make connections to Nikolai
Gogol's novel, Dead Souls. Pavel Chickikov, the novel's protagonist,
bought the souls of serfs who had died since the last government census in
attempts to raise his own social status. Mormons, of course, baptize the
dead to raise their spiritual status. The village folk in Gogol's Russian
novel were just as confused then. In either case, there's a lot to be said
about this line from Dead Souls, written in 1842, before the Mormons
started fullscale proxy baptism: "However stupid a fool's words may be,
they are sometimes enough to confound an intelligent man." >
--
Dr. Smartass
BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"When you're slapped, you'll take it and like it!" -- Sam Spade
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:03:53 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:33:44 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
<clark@steel.ucs.indiana.edu>, Message ID:
<bqgq5o$rbm$6@hood.uits.indiana.edu> wrote in alt.atheism;
In alt.religion.mormon Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
"kristinelund" <dolores_88@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no:
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the
names of dead russians. It's also bisarre.
They did the same thing to Jews who died in WW2 concentration camps. I
wouldn't be surprised to find Chief Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse in their
names list.
From SLWeekly:
Fans of Russian literature will immediately make connections to Nikolai
Gogol's novel, Dead Souls. Pavel Chickikov, the novel's protagonist,
bought the souls of serfs who had died since the last government census in
attempts to raise his own social status. Mormons, of course, baptize the
dead to raise their spiritual status. The village folk in Gogol's Russian
novel were just as confused then. In either case, there's a lot to be said
about this line from Dead Souls, written in 1842, before the Mormons
started fullscale proxy baptism: "However stupid a fool's words may be,
they are sometimes enough to confound an intelligent man." >
So that's where Chickikov came from in another persons post.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:01:52 AM |
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:56:09 +0100, "kristinelund"
<dolores_88@hotmail.com>, Message ID:
<_NOyb.2760$n31.48548@news2.e.nsc.no> wrote in alt.atheism;
It's wrong and disrespectful for the mormon church to harvest the names of
dead russians. It's also bisarre.
So's Christianity-wrong, disrespectful, and very very bizarre.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
07 Dec 2003 10:01:09 AM |
|
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On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 14:23:19 -0700, "Gaylord_Faulker"
<Gaylord_Faulker@msn.net>, Message ID: <o9WdnQ-YVofVLFai4p2dnA@aros.net>
wrote in alt.atheism;
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
They really have nothing to worry about. Either baptism for the dead is a
ineffectual, and thus a complete waste of time and money borne solely by
Mormons, or it is effectual and recognized by God, in which case they'd do
well in not obstructing God's plan.
The obstruction, by definition, is part of the 'plan.'
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "jwk" |
|
| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 10:58:21 AM |
|
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(Alonta) wrote in message news:<d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com>...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason
No! Contradicting reason in an organized religion?! What's next?
Will they stop thinking for themselves too?
jwk
BAAWA
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| User: "Nakas" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
29 Nov 2003 11:47:08 PM |
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I'll sell my name to the highest bidder.
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and
creates a tense situation.'
The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local
government commission studies it.
Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: 'Their work is not
prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and
prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian
Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.' He said the
Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit
clandestinely during the Soviet era.
Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said
the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked
Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of
Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was 'vital to save an
important part of our archives'. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash
goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.
Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern
over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei
Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon
Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or 'baptising
the dead' is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the
beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with
the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone -
Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.
'Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul
of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these
rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of
graves by Satanists.'
But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said:
'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for
their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul
of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or
to reject it.'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091318,00.html
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| User: "H.J." |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
01 Dec 2003 02:47:44 PM |
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If the Orthies don't recognize the Mormon church as valid, who cares what
Mormons do with the names? They're making good money.
Unless the Orthies worry that Mormons may have some valid recruitment system
for long-dead villagers.
"Alonta" <alonta84@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com...
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund
urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly
Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an
obstruction to its religious practices.
Father Igor Pchelintsov, spokesman for the local Orthodox Church,
said: 'The teaching of the Mormons about the conversion of the dead
contradicts reason and naturally causes concern among the faithful and
creates a tense situation.'
The work in the archive has been temporarily called off while a local
government commission studies it.
Nikolai Cheromin, a local official, said: 'Their work is not
prohibited. It is suspended and a group comprising officials and
prosecutors from the four traditional Russian religions - Christian
Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists and Muslims - are studying it.' He said the
Mormons had been present in the town for 100 years, albeit
clandestinely during the Soviet era.
Viktor Kharlanmov, head of the Nizhni Novgorod regional archive, said
the project was the result of an agreement between the Mormon-linked
Genealogical Society of the state of Utah and the Russian Society of
Historians and Archivists in Moscow. He said it was 'vital to save an
important part of our archives'. Seventy per cent of the Mormon cash
goes to the Moscow society, while 30 went to the local archives.
Orthodox experts and officials have expressed their severe concern
over the offence the project might cause locals. Professor Alexei
Dvorkin, head of the Sectology Department of the Moscow St Tikhon
Institute, said: 'The Mormon practice of proxy baptism or 'baptising
the dead' is a well known ritual described in a lot of books. At the
beginning of this practice they were looking for their ancestors with
the aim of baptising them, but later they began to baptise everyone -
Catholics, Muslims, Jewish, or Orthodox.
'Any Christian will tell you that these rituals do not harm the soul
of the dead. But it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these
rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of
graves by Satanists.'
But Yevgeny Smirnov, from the Nizhni Novgorod Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter Day Saints and adviser to the Moscow Mormon region, said:
'Our church aims to create a database permitting people to look for
their ancestors. Our ceremony is not rebaptism; it only gives the soul
of the deceased person the freedom of choice to accept our belief or
to reject it.'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091318,00.html
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| User: "Bill, The Avender" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
29 Nov 2003 11:45:03 PM |
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In alt.atheism on 29 Nov 2003 17:59:22 -0800,
(Alonta) wrote:
<snip>
[...] it hurts the feelings of the believers who see these
rituals with the names of the deceased as equal to the desecration of
graves by Satanists.'
Oh, poo, those poor, vile little petruscent mag... errrrr... I mean
'darlings'! Dey get deya' widdal feewings hurt? Such a tragedy.
Especiawy since dey neva, eva eva NEVA eva do anything that might hurt
somebody _else's_ feelings like that! What say we all throw a big ol'
pity party and just bawl our little eyes out right here in front of
everybody? Oh, and don't forget to fix your hair first - you'll want
that "just poofed" look for the pictures! And no, fellas, I didn't
mean _that_ kind of "poofed" so put it away already! Vile, diseased
ilttle petruscent maggots...
Anyway, here we go... Aaaaaannnnd a 1, a 2, and-a 1, 2, 3 -
FOOOOOOOORRR he's a jolly good fellow, for he's a jolly good fellow...
(etc... yadda... et al...)"
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
30 Nov 2003 02:17:31 AM |
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In article <d4d2bca.0311291759.b3bd32@posting.google.com>,
(Alonta) wrote:
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the
Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid ten US cents for each page of
thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late
eighteenth century to be put on a microfilm.
Aw. The Orthodox priests are just upset because they're no getting a
cut.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
- Question authority. Now more than ever. -
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| User: "Begemot2" |
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| Title: Re: Mormons buy souls of dead Russians, Orthodox church is outraged |
30 Nov 2003 05:33:55 PM |
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On 29 Nov 2003 17:59:22 -0800, (Alonta) wrote:
Russians fume as Mormons 'buy souls'
Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow
Sunday November 23, 2003
The Observer
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1091318,00.html
[...]
The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it
claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in
order to baptise 'dead souls' in their faith.
As I recall, "Mormon" is a colloquial term; they usually call
themselves something like L.D...
Now I remember! "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Chichikovs"
(LDC)
--Begemot2
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