Religions > Atheism > Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2005 02:51:34 PM |
| Object: |
Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
Vitz, Paul C. 1999. _Faith of the Fatherless: The
Psychology of Atheism_ (Dallas: Spence Publishing
Company), 174pp. On 136-7, some of the reasons for which
Vitz adopted atheism (he later rejected atheism):
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
Since the American War of Independence and the
French Revolution, an exaggerated desire for
independence has characterized much of Western
society. To be a "self-made man," to be "autonomous"
and "authentic," have been common ideals. A chip on
the shoulder "no-one-tells-me-what-to-do" mentality has
been widely admired and has become a cliche of modern
culture. Obviously, such attitudes fit especially well
with the psychology of the young male. This kind of
attitude easily generalizes into an independence from all
restraint, and thus supports the rejection of belief in
God. For me, as presumably for many, becoming an
atheist was part of a personal infatuation with the
"romance of the autonomous self."
PERSONAL CONVENIENCE
Finally, in this list of superficial but nonetheless strong
non-rational pressures to become an atheist, I must list
simple personal convenience. The fact is that, in the
powerful secular and neopagan world of today, it is
quite inconvenient to be a serious believer. I would
have had to give up many pleasures (you may use your
imagination) and was unwilling to do so. And besides,
religion takes a good deal of time, not just Sunday
mornings; the serious practice of any religion calls for
much more than that. There are other church services,
as well as time for prayer and Scripture reading, not to
mention time for "good works" of various sorts. I was
far too busy for such time-consuming activities.
Wiker, Benjamin (a creationist). 2002. _Moral Darwinism:
How We Became Hedonists_ (Downers Grove, Illinois:
InterVarsity Press), 327pp. Paragraphs on 56-57:
Could it be that much of the impetus keeping
materialism as the reigning view of science today is, as
it was with Epicurus [341-270 B.C.], moral in origin,
both in the broader and in the more confined sense? I
believe, in many cases, that it is. To be blunt,
materialists often suppress (or simply dismiss) evidence
of intelligent design because, consciously or
unconsciously, they realize that the Epicurean moral
world they comfortably inhabit (for it was Epicurus's
goal to make the world comfortable) would be
completely undermined if materialist cosmology were
overthrown by intelligent design.
In this, materialists rightly embrace that most
fundamental law mentioned in the introduction, that
every distinct view of the universe entails a view of
morality, and every distinct view of morality needs a
cosmology to support it. Many materialists therefore
rightly fear the intelligent design revolution because
they realize that a moral revolution necessarily follows
upon it. If an intelligent designer exists, then a divinely
mandated moral code for which we are accountable
might exist. If an intelligent designer is not part of
nature, and hence is not material, then he could have
created other immaterial entities such as the immortal
and immaterial soul. If the immortal soul exists and
God exists, and he mandates a moral code, then heaven
and hell might exist. If heaven and hell exist and God
exists, then we might be held accountable for actions
that are mandated or prohibited. All of this is quite
disturbing, and materialists rightly fear it. Those who
wish to be freed from it realize that materialism remains
the therapeutic cure.
For Further Reading
[Vitz]"it is quite inconvenient to be a serious believer. I would
have had to give up many pleasures (you may use your
imagination) and was unwilling to do so."
[Wiker]"materialists often suppress (or simply dismiss)
evidence of intelligent design because, consciously or
unconsciously, they realize that the Epicurean moral world
they comfortably inhabit (for it was Epicurus's goal to make
the world comfortable) would be completely undermined if
materialist cosmology were overthrown by intelligent
design"
Convert to secular humanism to enjoy guiltless sexual activity
of many varieties
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0409241109.17e2611d%40posting.google.com
Taking a firm, godless stand for death
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410291758.3dfffe4b%40posting.google.com
[Vitz]"There are other church services, as well as time for
prayer and Scripture reading, not to mention time for 'good
works' of various sorts. I was far too busy for such
time-consuming activities."
[2004 Dawkins]"the time-consuming, wealth-consuming,
hostility-provoking, fecundity-forfeiting rituals of religion"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0409021642.4830e330%40posting.google.com
[Wiker]"If heaven and hell exist and God exists, then we
might be held accountable for actions that are mandated or
prohibited."
Flew and the nature of hell
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-33b5roF3v2ikjU1%40individual.net
[Wiker]"impetus keeping materialism as the reigning view of science
today is, as it was with Epicurus [341-270 B.C.], moral in origin"
Timeline of Materialism, Spontaneous Generation, and
Blindwatchmaking Views
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-348jecF47mfcjU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 07:20:04 AM |
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Here are both of them:
1. The fact that materialism is the only tenable view of reality.
2. Nothing else.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 08:23:16 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
thought hard and said:
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
Since the American War of Independence and the
French Revolution, an exaggerated desire for
independence has characterized much of Western
society.
And man, I gotta tell ya, it sucks. I am just begging for someone to
run every aspect of my life!
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 08:30:02 PM |
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"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mf8jv09qg6h7889k4rhb0jfhni8hcnjjsd@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
thought hard and said:
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
Since the American War of Independence and the
French Revolution, an exaggerated desire for
independence has characterized much of Western
society.
And man, I gotta tell ya, it sucks. I am just begging for someone to
run every aspect of my life!
Care to meet my mother? :)
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "DJ Nozem" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 06:28:19 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
(snip, Vitz his nonsensical "psychology" has been hacked into ugly
little pieces often enough here on alt.atheism)
[Vitz]"it is quite inconvenient to be a serious believer. I would
have had to give up many pleasures (you may use your
imagination) and was unwilling to do so."
You have to wonder why, in the face of this statement, Vitz isn't more
interested in why most believers are in fact not serious to the point
of giving up many pleasures. A far more interesting problem, it would
seem to me, you'd get to deal with mental dissonance and all that.
Of course psychological research into the hypocrisy of believers might
not as easily get money from rich businessmen as simplistic nonsense
about the irresponsibility of atheists that makes believers feel all
fuzzy about their moral stature?
--
ATHÉE: Un peuple d'athées ne saurait subsister. -- Flaubert
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 07:32:54 AM |
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DJ Nozem <djn@pjn.qsrch.net> wrote in message
news:1sbgv0h4gdfhr351vr22q4e4c8se9e5udj@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
(snip, Vitz his nonsensical "psychology" has been hacked into ugly
little pieces often enough here on alt.atheism)
rcman R.I.P.
Where R = ripped & P = Pieces.
BTW I had a father, he and my mum brought me up to think for myself and care
about the truth. I have always been an Atheist, and my Dad would never have
let anybody nail me to a lump of wood and leave me to die.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 07:42:45 AM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:32:54 -0000, "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
DJ Nozem <djn@pjn.qsrch.net> wrote in message
news:1sbgv0h4gdfhr351vr22q4e4c8se9e5udj@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
(snip, Vitz his nonsensical "psychology" has been hacked into ugly
little pieces often enough here on alt.atheism)
rcman R.I.P.
Where R = ripped & P = Pieces.
BTW I had a father, he and my mum brought me up to think for myself and care
about the truth. I have always been an Atheist, and my Dad would never have
let anybody nail me to a lump of wood and leave me to die.
Yep. My parents were both at heists. They didn't teach any deity, but
taught me to think critically - so that when a fundamentalist teacher
tried to push her deity I treated it like some kind of silly
spot-the-flaw tall story game. For example when she asked me who
created everything, I asked why it took a "who". Eventually she wrote
to my parents accusing me of blasphemy and they laughed in her face.
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 08:07:17 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:forhv01niam00n2fjlt6kbqicv8fuchca0@4ax.com...
My parents were both at heists. They didn't teach any deity,
In my experience, most bank robbers are beyond redemption anyway.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
29 Jan 2005 08:18:11 PM |
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In our last episode <forhv01niam00n2fjlt6kbqicv8fuchca0@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee lumbered into the room and mumbled:
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
Did they ever get caught?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
28 Jan 2005 08:02:57 AM |
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In talk.atheism Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:32:54 -0000, "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
DJ Nozem <djn@pjn.qsrch.net> wrote in message
news:1sbgv0h4gdfhr351vr22q4e4c8se9e5udj@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
(snip, Vitz his nonsensical "psychology" has been hacked into ugly
little pieces often enough here on alt.atheism)
rcman R.I.P.
Where R = ripped & P = Pieces.
BTW I had a father, he and my mum brought me up to think for myself and care
about the truth. I have always been an Atheist, and my Dad would never have
let anybody nail me to a lump of wood and leave me to die.
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
Where they actually robbing the banks or were they simply innocent
by-standers?
/cue innocent look of puzzlement...
They didn't teach any deity, but
taught me to think critically - so that when a fundamentalist teacher
tried to push her deity I treated it like some kind of silly
spot-the-flaw tall story game. For example when she asked me who
created everything, I asked why it took a "who". Eventually she wrote
to my parents accusing me of blasphemy and they laughed in her face.
--
Mike
W hat atheism: a non-prophet organization...
W ould
J enna
D rink?
-------------------------------
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we," George W. "Shrub" Bush Aug 5, 2004
-------------------------------
The only product that Micro$oft could produce that *wouldn't* suck would be a
vacuum cleaner..
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
28 Jan 2005 10:00:00 AM |
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In talk.atheism Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:32:54 -0000, "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
DJ Nozem <djn@pjn.qsrch.net> wrote in message
news:1sbgv0h4gdfhr351vr22q4e4c8se9e5udj@4ax.com...
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
(snip, Vitz his nonsensical "psychology" has been hacked into ugly
little pieces often enough here on alt.atheism)
rcman R.I.P.
Where R = ripped & P = Pieces.
BTW I had a father, he and my mum brought me up to think for myself and care
about the truth. I have always been an Atheist, and my Dad would never have
let anybody nail me to a lump of wood and leave me to die.
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
Where they actually robbing the banks or were they simply innocent
by-standers?
/cue innocent look of puzzlement...
They didn't teach any deity, but
taught me to think critically - so that when a fundamentalist teacher
tried to push her deity I treated it like some kind of silly
spot-the-flaw tall story game. For example when she asked me who
created everything, I asked why it took a "who". Eventually she wrote
to my parents accusing me of blasphemy and they laughed in her face.
--
Mike
W hat atheism: a non-prophet organization...
W ould
J enna
D rink?
-------------------------------
Creation Science: an oxymoron actually created by morons...
-------------------------------
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you
do criticize them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
-------------------------------
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop
thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do
we," George W. "Shrub" Bush Aug 5, 2004
-------------------------------
The only product that Micro$oft could produce that *wouldn't* suck would be a
vacuum cleaner..
.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Chez Watt: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 04:04:36 PM |
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Nominated in the Revealing Typo category:
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
And John said, "Let there be lunch", and there was lunch.
And John tasted that it was good.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 05:39:48 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:04:36 +1100, (John
Wilkins) wrote:
Nominated in the Revealing Typo category:
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
Hey, I can't type and it passed the spell checker.
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| User: "Walter Bushell" |
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| Title: Re: Chez Watt: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 09:38:02 PM |
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In article <htuiv09p8njop8ahsvru4ruivmhs8bvc9g@4ax.com>,
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:04:36 +1100, (John
Wilkins) wrote:
Nominated in the Revealing Typo category:
Yep. My parents were both at heists.
Hey, I can't type and it passed the spell checker.
5 finger discounts? Or is that masculine supremacists? Or perhaps from
the Church of He, from _The Mote in God's Eye", by Niven and Pourelle?
--
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 03:48:23 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:51:34 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Vitz, Paul C. 1999. _Faith of the Fatherless: The
Psychology of Atheism_ (Dallas: Spence Publishing
Company), 174pp. On 136-7, some of the reasons for which
Vitz adopted atheism (he later rejected atheism):
since the philosophy of materialism as used by creationists is at best
undefined, and at worst wrong, dave is using philosophy like a hooker
uses KY jelly.
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
Since the American War of Independence and the
French Revolution, an exaggerated desire for
independence has characterized much of Western
society.
yeah, it's a shame. all it gave us was the most free, richest society
on earth. it sucks, doesnt it?
PERSONAL CONVENIENCE
Finally, in this list of superficial but nonetheless strong
non-rational pressures to become an atheist, I must list
simple personal convenience. The fact is that, in the
powerful secular and neopagan world of today, it is
quite inconvenient to be a serious believer.
and it's even more convenient to be a believer. all members of
congress believe in god. folks wouldnt vote for an atheist for
dogcatcher. getting the 10 commandments out of the courthouse leads to
death threats against atheists.
so it's easier to be a believer than a nonbeliever
Wiker, Benjamin (a creationist). 2002. _Moral Darwinism:
How We Became Hedonists_ (Downers Grove, Illinois:
InterVarsity Press), 327pp. Paragraphs on 56-57:
Could it be that much of the impetus keeping
materialism as the reigning view of science today is, as
it was with Epicurus [341-270 B.C.], moral in origin
no. it's because
1. materialism works. all causes we have identified in nature have
natural, material causes
2. supernaturalism once WAS science. that ALWAYS failed. each and
every time.
both in the broader and in the more confined sense? I
believe, in many cases, that it is. To be blunt,
materialists often suppress (or simply dismiss) evidence
of intelligent design because,
what is 'evidence of intelligent design' when ID people cant tell us
how ID works. they specifically exclude NATURAL laws, and insist on
the supernatural. how does that work?
'god did it'.
In this, materialists rightly embrace that most
fundamental law mentioned in the introduction, that
every distinct view of the universe entails a view of
morality,
nonsense. there are conservative christians and liberal atheists who
are both evolutionary biologists
this kind of stereotyping is typical creationists rhetoric
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "Greg G." |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 06:55:12 PM |
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There is no motivation to "cling" to a philosophy of materialism. It is
the natural position for every sane person, including those who claim
to reject it. Faith is never perfect.
Where would medicine be if not for materialistic explanations of
disease, rather than demonic possessions or divine punishment.
The evolution of the flagellum is now understood to have come from the
type III secretory system with proteins found to be used by other
systems. The non-materialistic IDers wanted us to believe that the
evolution of the structure could not be explained and the proteins
would have had to have popped up simultaneously.
It is simply dangerous to ascribe non-materialistic explanations
prematurely for two reasons. First, one looks foolish when a
materilistic explanation arises, but more importantly, it stifles
science.
Our technology did not reach the level of Roman technology until about
200 years ago. For 1000 years, western culture clung to
non-materialistic explanations rather than building on Roman
technology, a period known as the Dark Ages.
We are about 800 years behind where we should be on the technological
curve because of non-materialistic philosophy.
--
Greg G.
I've been feeling really apathetic lately. Like today -- Jimmy cracked
corn, but I don't care.
--Howie Mandell
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| User: "Andy Groves" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 02:26:28 PM |
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david ford wrote:
Convert to secular humanism to enjoy guiltless sexual activity
of many varieties
Works for me.
Andy
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| User: "zinnic" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 03:02:12 PM |
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Why not become an evangelical and get a variety of sex in a missionary
position?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
28 Jan 2005 06:07:26 AM |
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david ford wrote:
I would have had to give up many
pleasures (you may use your imagination)...
........
........
ewwwwwww... this is where I usually stick my fingers in my ears and
start shouting... LA LA LA LA LA!!!
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| User: "Lt. Kizhe Catson" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 05:12:13 PM |
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david ford wrote:
Vitz, Paul C. 1999. _Faith of the Fatherless: The
Psychology of Atheism_ (Dallas: Spence Publishing
Company), 174pp. On 136-7, some of the reasons for which
Vitz adopted atheism (he later rejected atheism):
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
[....]
PERSONAL CONVENIENCE
[....]
So, some idiot rejected religion for all the wrong reasons. This is
supposed to be an argument for what, exactly?
Wiker, Benjamin (a creationist). 2002. _Moral Darwinism:
How We Became Hedonists_ (Downers Grove, Illinois:
InterVarsity Press), 327pp. Paragraphs on 56-57:
Could it be that much of the impetus keeping
materialism as the reigning view of science today is, as
it was with Epicurus [341-270 B.C.], moral in origin,
both in the broader and in the more confined sense? I
believe, in many cases, that it is. To be blunt,
[snip more innuendo]
How, in all your massive research, did you manage to miss the concept of
"Argument Ad Hominem", and why it's a Bad Thing?
You really are contemptible.
-- Kizhe
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 10:39:14 PM |
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In our last episode <41F823CD.5010208@gmail.com>, Lt. Kizhe Catson
lumbered into the room and mumbled:
david ford wrote:
Vitz, Paul C. 1999. _Faith of the Fatherless: The Psychology of
Atheism_ (Dallas: Spence Publishing Company), 174pp. On 136-7, some of
the reasons for which Vitz adopted atheism (he later rejected atheism):
PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE
[....]
PERSONAL CONVENIENCE
[....]
So, some idiot rejected religion for all the wrong reasons. This is
supposed to be an argument for what, exactly?
David Ford's stupidity maybe?
(How many times has he posted this crap now anyway?)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Thore \Tocis\ Schmechtig" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 10:52:15 PM |
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david ford wrote:
You can stir your *****, roast it, baste it, quickfreeze it, it stays
*****.
--
Regards
Thore "Tocis" Schmechtig
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 03:49:17 PM |
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david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 05:21:01 PM |
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maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
Einstein to zu Lowenstein;
1941 Einstein: "people who say there is no God. But what really makes
me angry is that they quote me for support of such views."
Lenin's becoming an atheist; 1922 Lenin; Bertrand Russell never taken in
by Soviet regime; 2005 President Bush inaugural speech
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-35nbd1F4pm3jiU1%40individual.net
theological leanings of twenty signers of the Declaration of
Independence; Timeline of Einstein's Loss of Faith in Materialism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-35bcc1F4j6a0cU1%40individual.net
Hawking not an atheist
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.980927230202.15518B-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.981023223535.2360A-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.981002001223.7287B-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
26 Jan 2005 06:16:07 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:21:01 -0500, david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
what, exactly, is the 'theory' of intelligent design?
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "sanguinevikings" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 07:12:32 AM |
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david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-35qmutF4osubpU1@individual.net...
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
A tautology.
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 08:09:50 AM |
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:12:32 -0000, "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-35qmutF4osubpU1@individual.net...
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
A tautology.
That's why there must be so many Quakers and Methodists in the Liberal
Democrat Party Over Here (1).
Lizz 'Liberal as in the UKoGBaNI, not as in Australia (2)' Holmans
(1) There's a good polysci explaination, but I'm not sure all you
folks would be fascinated by it, so I'll skip it, if that's OK.
(2) Although it sure would be fun to take all those Republicans in the
US to Oz and watch them writhe as they tick 'Liberal'.
--
I have seen things you will never see.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
27 Jan 2005 04:04:32 PM |
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Lizz Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:12:32 -0000, "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not>
wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-35qmutF4osubpU1@individual.net...
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
A tautology.
That's why there must be so many Quakers and Methodists in the Liberal
Democrat Party Over Here (1).
Lizz 'Liberal as in the UKoGBaNI, not as in Australia (2)' Holmans
(1) There's a good polysci explaination, but I'm not sure all you
folks would be fascinated by it, so I'll skip it, if that's OK.
(2) Although it sure would be fun to take all those Republicans in the
US to Oz and watch them writhe as they tick 'Liberal'.
And all those Australian liberals, who would need to vote Tory in the
UKoGBaNI...
I have to say I am extremely disappointed by maff's "Christian fascist"
riff. Ford is many things - a moron, a quote miner, ignorant, and so
forth, but I have no reason to think he's a fascist.
Calling people "fascist" when they aren't strictly speaking fascists is
a very dangerous thing. FOr a start, it devalues the term - when you
meet *real* fascists, what can you call them? Will you make the
connection with what the fascists actually did do, and prepare against
it? Just because someone is authoritarian, or revisionary in history,
does not make them a fascist.
We had a state premier who was autocratic and conservative. Some fool
wrote a letter to the editor arguing he was "worse than Hitler". So far
as I know, he had no brown shirts, no Krystalnacht, no Final Solution,
and whn elections were held and he lost, he went. He has been doing good
community work with depression-activism since.
This sort of hyperbole is deeply denigrative of the suffering of those
who did undergo fascist rule and atrocities. Let's get perspective -
ford is probably a YEC, definitely antiscience, and certainly
uneducated. He lacks understanding, but that doesn't make him fascist.
--
I have seen things you will never see.
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
And John said, "Let there be lunch", and there was lunch.
And John tasted that it was good.
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| User: "Nantko Schanssema" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
29 Jan 2005 03:01:59 PM |
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(John Wilkins):
I have to say I am extremely disappointed by maff's "Christian fascist"
riff. Ford is many things - a moron, a quote miner, ignorant, and so
forth, but I have no reason to think he's a fascist.
Calling people "fascist" when they aren't strictly speaking fascists is
a very dangerous thing. FOr a start, it devalues the term - when you
meet *real* fascists, what can you call them? Will you make the
connection with what the fascists actually did do, and prepare against
it? Just because someone is authoritarian, or revisionary in history,
does not make them a fascist.
Well said.
We've been doing quite a bit of remembering, last week, what real
*real* fascists do, when in power. Nothing to joke about.
regards,
Nantko
--
The invisible and the nonexistent look very much alike. (Delos McKown)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~nantko/
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
28 Jan 2005 04:32:20 AM |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Lizz Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:12:32 -0000, "sanguinevikings"
<spam@spam.not>
wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-35qmutF4osubpU1@individual.net...
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
A tautology.
That's why there must be so many Quakers and Methodists in the
Liberal
Democrat Party Over Here (1).
Lizz 'Liberal as in the UKoGBaNI, not as in Australia (2)' Holmans
(1) There's a good polysci explaination, but I'm not sure all you
folks would be fascinated by it, so I'll skip it, if that's OK.
(2) Although it sure would be fun to take all those Republicans in
the
US to Oz and watch them writhe as they tick 'Liberal'.
And all those Australian liberals, who would need to vote Tory in the
UKoGBaNI...
I have to say I am extremely disappointed by maff's "Christian
fascist"
riff. Ford is many things - a moron, a quote miner, ignorant, and so
forth, but I have no reason to think he's a fascist.
Calling people "fascist" when they aren't strictly speaking fascists
is
a very dangerous thing. FOr a start, it devalues the term - when you
meet *real* fascists, what can you call them? Will you make the
connection with what the fascists actually did do, and prepare
against
it? Just because someone is authoritarian, or revisionary in history,
does not make them a fascist.
We had a state premier who was autocratic and conservative. Some fool
wrote a letter to the editor arguing he was "worse than Hitler". So
far
as I know, he had no brown shirts, no Krystalnacht, no Final
Solution,
and whn elections were held and he lost, he went. He has been doing
good
community work with depression-activism since.
This sort of hyperbole is deeply denigrative of the suffering of
those
who did undergo fascist rule and atrocities. Let's get perspective -
ford is probably a YEC, definitely antiscience, and certainly
uneducated. He lacks understanding, but that doesn't make him
fascist.
In the '30s, most people also thought fascists were idiots and morons.
Who would have thought they'll come to power?
Of course, fascism also evolves especially after defeat.
--
I have seen things you will never see.
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
And John said, "Let there be lunch", and there was lunch.
And John tasted that it was good.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Motivations for Continuing to Cling to Philosophy of Materialism |
01 Feb 2005 12:39:56 PM |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Lizz Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 27 Jan 2005 "sanguinevikings" <spam@spam.not> wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-35qmutF4osubpU1@individual.net...
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Where's the evidence for Christian fascism, scum?
What exactly is [m]"Christian fascism"?
A tautology.
That's why there must be so many Quakers and Methodists in the Liberal
Democrat Party Over Here (1).
Lizz 'Liberal as in the UKoGBaNI, not as in Australia (2)' Holmans
(1) There's a good polysci explaination, but I'm not sure all you
folks would be fascinated by it, so I'll skip it, if that's OK.
(2) Although it sure would be fun to take all those Republicans in the
US to Oz and watch them writhe as they tick 'Liberal'.
And all those Australian liberals, who would need to vote Tory in the
UKoGBaNI...
I have to say I am extremely disappointed by maff's "Christian fascist"
riff. Ford is many things - a moron, a quote miner, ignorant, and so
forth, but I have no reason to think he's a fascist.
Calling people "fascist" when they aren't strictly speaking fascists is
a very dangerous thing. FOr a start, it devalues the term - when you
meet *real* fascists, what can you call them? Will you make the
connection with what the fascists actually did do, and prepare against
it? Just because someone is authoritarian, or revisionary in history,
does not make them a fascist.
We had a state premier who was autocratic and conservative. Some fool
wrote a letter to the editor arguing he was "worse than Hitler". So far
as I know, he had no brown shirts, no Krystalnacht, no Final Solution,
and whn elections were held and he lost, he went. He has been doing good
community work with depression-activism since.
This sort of hyperbole is deeply denigrative of the suffering of those
who did undergo fascist rule and atrocities. Let's get perspective -
ford is probably a YEC,
uppermost paragraph denoted by: |>
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.91.960808013047.848B-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
do a control - f / "find" for: year
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970709000645.26045D-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
on a related subject:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.9911232100270.17626-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
control - f / "find" for: 4.5
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0308272213.31d1ab4b%40posting.google.com
definitely antiscience, and certainly
uneducated.
[JW]"certainly uneducated" E.g., you had to tell me about "the eclipse
of Darwinism."
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.981004230112.14734B-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
historical background to rise and fall of the Synthetic Euphoria; 1936
A. Franklin Shull
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0403271329.1e569adf%40posting.google.com
He lacks understanding,
E.g., about irrelevant quotations.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.990209225344.1109299A-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
Also e.g., about Patterson's talk.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970920002714.25773B-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu
T0E good for taxonomy?: 1973 Fairbairn (a creationist); 1982 Colin
Patterson; 5 November 1981 Patterson
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0402161147.29fee40e%40posting.google.com
but that doesn't make him fascist.
I have seen things you will never see.
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