| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Moderate Mammal" |
| Date: |
23 Mar 2005 05:19:42 AM |
| Object: |
Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
March 20, 2005
BERLIN — Frost covers the roses, and the scrawled eulogies are
tattered near the sidewalk where Hatun Surucu was gunned down. The
attackers appeared on a cold night more than a month ago. Three shots
were fired and the young Turkish woman crumpled in the blurred glare
of a streetlight.
The accused assailants fled to a place that Surucu knew well: the home
where she was raised. Her killers, police say, were her brothers.
A 23-year-old single mother seeking to escape tradition and religious
constraints, Surucu was the sixth Muslim woman to have died in the
German capital since October in suspected "honor killings," slayings
arranged by families who believe that their reputations have been
stained.
Such crimes are rarely mentioned in Germany's newspapers.
But Surucu's public slaying has instigated fresh debates on politics,
immigration, human rights and a rigorous Islam adopted by a minority
of Muslims confronted with poverty, discrimination and liberal
European attitudes. The case is a portrait of contradictions — much
like Surucu, whose memorial pictures show her either wearing the
hijab, the head scarf of her Eastern heritage, or with the uncovered
hair of her Western aspirations.
"Hatun couldn't bring her two worlds together," said Marko Katovcic, a
classmate in an electrical apprentice program. "There is too much
contradiction between these worlds. We knew she had problems, but she
didn't talk about private things."
Surucu's violent fate is a verse in the larger epic of European
immigration. The continent's Muslim population has nearly doubled to
about 14 million over the last decade. Many Muslim immigrants seek
immediate assimilation. Others practice their religion and traditions
while embracing their adopted countries. A small but growing
proportion turns to more radical religious precepts that have
unsettled the continent since Sept. 11, 2001, and last year's Madrid
train bombings.
Surucu crossed all strands of these immigrant classes, but it was only
after her death that her predicament touched German society.
On websites and television shows and in speeches and proclamations,
Surucu, who lived with her 5-year-old son in a worn-down complex of
pre-World War II apartment buildings, has become a symbol for causes
ranging from women's rights to conservative Christianity.
"Something like this happens, and suddenly all Turks in Germany get
recognized through Hatun," said Eren Unsal, a representative of the
Turkish Assn. in Berlin and Brandenburg. "This is not fair or
accurate."
A lithe woman who wore big earrings and shoulder-length hair, Surucu
was the daughter of Turkish-Kurdish immigrants from the Anatolian
plains of southeastern Turkey, part of a stream of guest workers who
began arriving in the 1960s. She grew up amid the basement mosques and
kebab stands in this city's multicultural Kruez- berg district.
Friends say her father, Kerim, a cook, adhered to the strict
traditions of his native land. She was 16 when her parents arranged
for her to marry her cousin and move to Istanbul, Turkey.
It didn't last. She returned to Germany around 2000 with her son, Can.
She distanced herself from her family and complained to police that
one of her five brothers had threatened her.
She moved into her own apartment and enrolled in an electrician
apprentice program. She went to discos. She drank alcohol. She stopped
wearing the hijab. She observed some tenets of her faith, such as not
eating pork. Friends say she believed that Europe held a place for
modern Muslim women.
Her opportunities were limited. Despite their decades-long history in
Germany, the majority of the nation's 2.5 million Turks exist in a
parallel society that has only recently shown signs of integration.
Turkish artists, writers and film directors, along with a growing
number of businesspeople and a scattering of politicians, are making
inroads. But the children of immigrants, such as Surucu, face daunting
statistics: 45% of the Turks in Berlin are unemployed, and 30% drop
out of high school.
"Hatun was independent and believed she could make it," said Iris
Bock, who runs a bakery across the street from Surucu's apartment in
the western Tempelhof district. "But she made a mistake, and she cut
the ties to her family. She was direct and said what she felt."
Unsal of the Turkish association tried to explain the implications of
that estrangement.
"Respect is the motive behind honor killing. The honor of the family
and the honor of the brothers are fixed upon how the sister's
perceived," he said. "I don't want to defend these brothers, but they
were raised in a system to uphold the honor of the family at any
price. Hatun married and left a husband and returned home to live
alone.
"What's worse, she didn't want anything to do with her biological
family. They couldn't figure this out. She just didn't want to be
controlled anymore."
According to police, about 9 p.m. on Feb. 7, Surucu's brothers Mutlu,
25; Alpaslan, 24; and Ayhan, 18, shot her on Oberland Street about two
blocks from her apartment. Police were led to the men after one of
their girlfriends made comments about the alleged plot. The brothers
have pleaded not guilty to charges of murder. Their father told a
Turkish newspaper that he did not sanction an honor killing.
"They are all my children," said Surucu's mother, Hanim, standing at
the family's front door wearing an ankle-length green-and-blue print
dress and matching hijab. "My sons didn't do this. They went to work
and then were taken away in handcuffs."
Surucu's slaying followed the suspected honor killings of five other
Berlin women since the fall. They include a woman who was stabbed in
front of her children and another who drowned in her bathtub.
Human rights organizations and Muslim activists estimate that there
have been 45 honor killings and thousands of arranged or forced
marriages in Germany since 1996.
These cases have further complicated this country's troubled, and
sometimes misguided, efforts at integration.
Conservative legislators in some states want to ban teachers from
wearing the hijab in public schools, and new laws make deportation of
radical mullahs and extremists easier. Conservative German groups and
right-wing websites say Surucu's slaying is another indication the
Muslim immigrant community ignores Western values and is growing
increasingly volatile.
"Along with Hatun Surucu, so has the dream of multiculturalism died,"
states the website run by the far-right Republikaner political party.
"The death of this young woman must convince the last multi-culti
romantic that the dream of a peaceful coexistence of different
cultures and religions is over. Islam is and stays incompatible with
the values of our constitution."
Muslim political and religious organizations decried Surucu's death
and have called for examinations of cultural relations and religious
attitudes.
But Germans were stunned when the media reported that some Turkish
boys in a neighborhood school said they sympathized with Surucu's
suspected killers. One of them said Surucu "had only herself to
blame." Another said: "She deserved what she got — the ***** lived
like a German."
Seyran Ates, a Berlin-based lawyer and women's rights activist, said
Germany's efforts to spread social equality and its "oversensitivity"
toward minorities had allowed a conservative radicalism to flourish in
some Muslim neighborhoods. Since the Holocaust, German governments
have been careful not to single out religious or ethnic groups, an
approach some critics say spawned an atmosphere that aided several
Sept. 11 hijackers who had studied in Hamburg before leaving for the
U.S.
"This false dream of tolerance and Germany's fear of being called
racist are helping fundamentalists," Ates said. "Honor killings are a
cancer brought here from the East. But now this cancer is receiving
nourishment because this fake tolerance has created parallel
societies…. Radicalism is increasing, especially among the young. This
'lost generation' is returning to its roots because they feel they
have no chance of a job and that they've been put into a box since
Sept. 11."
Some Muslim activists say they are surprised at the attention that
Surucu's case has raised.
"The interesting thing now is that talk of honor killings is getting
on the evening news," Unsal said. "The negative effect is that it fits
into the agenda of Christian conservatives who believe Germany should
only be a Christian country. I'm sure Hatun's murder will be used in
many political campaigns. The positive side is that we're finally
becoming sensitive to protecting the rights of Muslim women."
The candles were cold at the ragged memorial near the bus stop where
Surucu died. Passersby stopped and read notes tacked on cellophane and
roses left in the dirt. One note read: "What's wrong with a world
where we judge others in the name of God?"
Around the corner and down an icy sidewalk, Surucu's apartment has
been sealed by police. Her neighbors don't answer their doors; they
have spoken enough.
But still there are contradictions, those unresolved questions left by
a young woman tugged by two worlds. Surucu was buried in German soil
with her face pointed toward Mecca. She had shunned Islamic veils for
blue jeans and body piercings, yet a picture taken at her funeral that
appeared in a national newspaper showed men with beards praying over
her coffin.
The German courts will decide who will raise her son.
-------------------------------------
Fed up with illegal immigration?
_____
http://www.saveourstate.org
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frostyA.htm
http://www.americanpatrol.com/LINKS/LINKS.html
http://www.vdare.com/links.htm
http://www.stoptheinvasion.com/links/
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
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To send mail: remove hutch
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| User: "mariposas morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 07:56:04 AM |
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In article <61k2419r0jmi1sgsegfrbdp9nv086e42li@4ax.com>,
Moderate Mammal <BunnERabbit@verizon.hutch.net> wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,pri
nt.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
on the other if shes seeking abortion
then is she just a ***** and can be attacked and insulted and murdered?
arf meow arf - dogs and cats living together
the erisian constancy - though chaos is transformed
but never lost to sea - grey ordered ranks are swarmed
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| User: "Bunn E. Rabbit" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 05:36:40 PM |
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On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:56:04 -0800, mariposas morgan mair fheal
greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <61k2419r0jmi1sgsegfrbdp9nv086e42li@4ax.com>,
Moderate Mammal <BunnERabbit@verizon.hutch.net> wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,pri
nt.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
on the other if shes seeking abortion
then is she just a ***** and can be attacked and insulted and murdered?
You're right. There are no abortion rights in muslim majority areas.
--
Keith
arf meow arf - dogs and cats living together
the erisian constancy - though chaos is transformed
but never lost to sea - grey ordered ranks are swarmed
-------------------------------------
Fed up with illegal immigration?
_____
http://www.saveourstate.org
http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frostyA.htm
http://www.americanpatrol.com/LINKS/LINKS.html
http://www.vdare.com/links.htm
http://www.stoptheinvasion.com/links/
_____
"Cosmic upheaval is not so moving as a little child pondering the death
of a sparrow in the corner of a barn." -Anouk Aimee, French Actor
_____
"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC),
Agamemnon
_____
"I wear no Burka." - Mother Nature
----------
To send mail: remove hutch
.
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| User: "mariposas morgan mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 05:46:09 PM |
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In article <fav3411ah3uhj3v9qjl6sti9jaksvnp0n1@4ax.com>,
Bunn E. Rabbit <BunnERabbit@verizon.hutch.net> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:56:04 -0800, mariposas morgan mair fheal
greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <61k2419r0jmi1sgsegfrbdp9nv086e42li@4ax.com>,
Moderate Mammal <BunnERabbit@verizon.hutch.net> wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,
pri
nt.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
on the other if shes seeking abortion
then is she just a ***** and can be attacked and insulted and murdered?
You're right. There are no abortion rights in muslim majority areas.
like rural mississippi
arf meow arf - dogs and cats living together
the erisian constancy - though chaos is transformed
but never lost to sea - grey ordered ranks are swarmed
.
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| User: "David Goldberg" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 07:20:31 AM |
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Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 08:30:24 AM |
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"David Goldberg" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42416D1F.90F7DD25@nowhere.com...
Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Racist much?
--
rb #2187
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| User: "John Griffin" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 10:41:32 AM |
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Cretin "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa>
wrote:
"David Goldberg" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42416D1F.90F7DD25@nowhere.com...
Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar2
0,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest
slaying of a Muslim woman in the German capital has
sharpened the debate over the place of immigrants in
Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Racist much?
<snicker> Another cretin who thinks "muslim" is a race.
Post some more, cretin. We can always use more snickers.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 11:05:04 AM |
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John Griffin wrote:
Cretin "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa>
wrote:
"David Goldberg" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42416D1F.90F7DD25@nowhere.com...
Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar2
0,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest
slaying of a Muslim woman in the German capital has
sharpened the debate over the place of immigrants in
Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Racist much?
<snicker> Another cretin who thinks "muslim" is a race.
So he got the terminology wrong. Big deal. I'll fix it for him:
"Islamophobic much?"
Post some more, cretin. We can always use more snickers.
Personally, I like Butterfingers more than Snickers, but to each their
own. *shrug* ;-)
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 12:11:55 PM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:68idnewkUYEnPNzfRVn-1A@comcast.com...
John Griffin wrote:
Cretin "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa>
wrote:
"David Goldberg" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:42416D1F.90F7DD25@nowhere.com...
Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar2
0,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest
slaying of a Muslim woman in the German capital has
sharpened the debate over the place of immigrants in
Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Racist much?
<snicker> Another cretin who thinks "muslim" is a race.
So he got the terminology wrong. Big deal. I'll fix it for him:
"Islamophobic much?"
Thanks.
I think "Bigoted much?" would work too.
Post some more, cretin. We can always use more snickers.
Personally, I like Butterfingers more than Snickers, but to each their
own. *shrug* ;-)
--
rb #2187
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 07:27:12 AM |
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David Goldberg wrote:
Moderate Mammal wrote:
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-honor20mar20,1,4697145,print.story?coll=la-headl
Honor Killings' Show Culture Clash in Berlin The latest slaying of a
Muslim woman in the German capital has sharpened the debate over the
place of immigrants in Europe. By Jeffrey Fleishman Times Staff Writer
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Thou Shalt Not Murder?
Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you?
Are you really for the murder of Muslims? Sickening.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 11:33:59 AM |
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David wrote:
If they're killing other Muslims, what's the problem?
Don't you get it? As a friend at synagogue says, "you can't have
both Western feminism and Third World self-determination in the same
place at the same time." The EU's Moslem immigrated communities are de
facto autonomous; does it surprise you that they're graduating from
gang rape as a "rite of passage" for their young males to "honor
killings" - all just like in their homelands?
The EU's Moslem immigrant communities are large - and growing. How
long until they start applying their "morals codes" to the majority
locals? Look at the Pim Fortuyn and Van Gogh assassinations in
Holland. Look at how they've forced France to "de-police" their
ghettos. Look at the rampant gang rape of the majority local women in
France.
If all this is going on when Moslem immigrants are 10% of the
residents of some EU nations, wait until they become 25%.
See all our stuff at <a
href="http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW">Internet Gun Show!</a>
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| User: "Lady Chatterly" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim 'Honor Killings' in Germany |
23 Mar 2005 12:43:36 PM |
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In article <1111599239.465698.71210@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
editor@netpath.net <editor@netpath.net> wrote:
Don't you get it? As a friend at synagogue says, "you can't have
both Western feminism and Third World self-determination in the same
place at the same time." The EU's Moslem immigrated communities are de
facto autonomous; does it surprise you that they're graduating from
gang rape as a "rite of passage" for their young males to "honor
killings" - all just like in their homelands?
The EU's Moslem immigrant communities are large - and growing. How
long until they start applying their "morals codes" to the majority
locals? Look at the Pim Fortuyn and Van Gogh assassinations in
Holland. Look at how they've forced France to "de-police" their
ghettos. Look at the rampant gang rape of the majority local women in
France.
If all this is going on when Moslem immigrants are 10% of the
residents of some EU nations, wait until they become 25%.
To those who do not know what you are a fart.
--
Lady Chatterly
"Lady Chatterly is a software program that generates posts, Stupid."
-- Meat-->Plow
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