| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
18 Sep 2006 11:40:27 PM |
| Object: |
Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
http://catholicleague.org/06press_releases/quarter%203/060918_proves_pope.htm
Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed today the Muslim reaction
to Pope Benedict XVI's speech at Regensburg University:
"One of the points that the pope made in his speech at Regensburg University
was the necessity of linking faith to reason. He warned that uncoupling the
twin values had horrendous consequences, leading people of faith to resort
to violence. Ironically, the violent reaction, and the calls for more
violence, on the part of some Muslims underscores the pope's point. The
response of violence to non-violence is barbaric.
"In Somalia, Muslims were urged by a cleric to 'hunt down' the pope and kill
him. 'Whoever offends our Prophet Muhammad should be killed on the spot by
the nearest Muslim,' said Sheik Abubakar Hassan Malin. No doubt that this
'man of God' must be happy now that a nun was shot outside a children's
hospital in the nation's capital. The Mujahideen Shura Council referred to
the pope as 'the worshipper of the cross,' and pledged to 'break the cross
and spill the wine' in the 'house of the dog from Rome.' The group, which
posted its call to violence on the Internet, also said that God will enable
Muslims 'to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the
bounty of the mujahideen.' Seven churches were firebombed in the West Bank
and Gaza by gun-wielding Palestinians, using lighter fluid to burn the
churches. And today, in the Pakistani-controlled section of Kashmir, Muslims
took to the streets chanting 'Death to the Pope,' burning him in effigy.
"No wonder the pope has spoken against Turkey (where an official compared
him to Hitler) joining the European Union. Not until Islam matures and
Muslims come to reject the wanton destruction of innocent human life is
there any chance of a real dialogue. The scene of Muslims calling for Jews
and Christians to be murdered with impunity is all too common, as this
latest demonstration of hate proves."
--
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J Yöung
youngopinions@aol.com
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| User: "Hotel Charlie One" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 09:35:58 AM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com:
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue, an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These
Muslims who threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
Bill Donohue is another in the very long line of "my way or the
highway" bigots. I don't have respect for bigots, I have contempt for
them.
--
The actions of the disgraceful Clinton and Bush administrations
make it possible for me to say without shame that I deeply regret
the day I put the uniform of my country. The freedoms that I was
willing to protect with my life are being lost. The America of
our founders is dead. All we are waiting for now is rigor mortis.
HotelCharlieOne
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| User: "Miriam Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 01:17:59 PM |
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Hotel Charlie One wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com:
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue, an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These
Muslims who threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
Bill Donohue is another in the very long line of "my way or the
highway" bigots. I don't have respect for bigots, I have contempt for
them.
and yet, that doesn't change the fact that the *ACTIONS* of the
Islamofascists in question have indeed proven the words of the Pope.
--
L'Chaim
Miriam
In the beginning
the Word already was.
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| User: "Surfer" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:50:28 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:17:59 -0700, Miriam Cohen
<mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
and yet, that doesn't change the fact that the *ACTIONS* of the
Islamofascists in question have indeed proven the words of the Pope.
But do the Islamofascists represent Islam as a whole?
According to the following, they do not.
http://www.juancole.com/2006/09/pope-gets-it-wrong-on-islam-pope.html
Pope Gets it Wrong on Islam
Pope Benedict's speech at Regensburg University, which mentioned Islam
and jihad, has provoked a firestorm of controversy.
The address is more complex and subtle than the press on it
represents. But let me just signal that what is most troubling of all
is that the Pope gets several things about Islam wrong, just as a
matter of fact.
He notes that the text he discusses, a polemic against Islam by a
Byzantine emperor, cites Qur'an 2:256: "There is no compulsion in
religion." Benedict maintains that this is an early verse, when
Muhammad was without power.
His allegation is incorrect. Surah 2 is a Medinan surah revealed when
Muhammad was already established as the leader of the city of Yathrib
(later known as Medina or "the city" of the Prophet). The pope
imagines that a young Muhammad in Mecca before 622 (lacking power)
permitted freedom of conscience, but later in life ordered that his
religion be spread by the sword. But since Surah 2 is in fact from the
Medina period when Muhammad was in power, that theory does not hold
water.
In fact, the Qur'an at no point urges that religious faith be imposed
on anyone by force. This is what it says about the religions:
' [2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the
Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians-- any who
believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have
their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they
grieve. '
See my comments On the Quran and peace.
The idea of holy war or jihad (which is about defending the community
or at most about establishing rule by Muslims, not about imposing the
faith on individuals by force) is also not a Quranic doctrine. The
doctrine was elaborated much later, on the Umayyad-Byzantine frontier,
long after the Prophet's death. In fact, in early Islam it was hard to
join, and Christians who asked to become Muslim were routinely turned
away. The tyrannical governor of Iraq, al-Hajjaj, was notorious for
this rejection of applicants, because he got higher taxes on
non-Muslims. Arab Muslims had conquered Iraq, which was then largely
pagan, Zoroastrian, Christian and Jewish. But they weren't seeking
converts and certainly weren't imposing their religion.
The pope was trying to make the point that coercion of conscience is
incompatible with genuine, reasoned faith. He used Islam as a symbol
of the coercive demand for unreasoned faith.
But he has been misled by the medieval polemic on which he depended.
In fact, the Quran also urges reasoned faith and also forbids coercion
in religion. The only violence urged in the Quran is in self-defense
of the Muslim community against the attempts of the pagan Meccans to
wipe it out.
The pope says that in Islam, God is so transcendant that he is beyond
reason and therefore cannot be expected to act reasonably. He
contrasts this conception of God with that of the Gospel of John,
where God is the Logos, the Reason inherent in the universe.
But there have been many schools of Islamic theology and philosophy.
The Mu'tazilite school maintained exactly what the Pope is saying,
that God must act in accordance with reason and the good as humans
know them. The Mu'tazilite approach is still popular in Zaidism and in
Twelver Shiism of the Iraqi and Iranian sort. The Ash'ari school, in
contrast, insisted that God was beyond human reason and therefore
could not be judged rationally. (I think the Pope would find that
Tertullian and perhaps also John Calvin would be more sympathetic to
this view within Christianity than he is).
As for the Quran, it constantly appeals to reason in knowing God, and
in refuting idolatry and paganism, and asks, "do you not reason?" "do
you not understand?" (a fala ta`qilun?)
Of course, Christianity itself has a long history of imposing coerced
faith on people, including on pagans in the late Roman Empire, who
were forcibly converted. And then there were the episodes of the
Crusades.
Another irony is that reasoned, scholastic Christianity has an
important heritage from Islam itself. In the 10th century, there was
little scholasticism in Christian theology. The influence of Muslim
thinkers such as Averroes (Ibn Rushd) and Avicenna (Ibn Sina)
reemphasized the use of Aristotle and Plato in Christian theology.
Indeed, there was a point where Christian theologians in Paris had
divided into partisans of Averroes or of Avicenna, and they conducted
vigorous polemics with one another.
Finally, that Byzantine emperor that the Pope quoted, Manuel II? The
Byzantines had been weakened by Latin predations during the fourth
Crusade, so it was in a way Rome that had sought coercion first. And,
he ended his days as a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.
The Pope was wrong on the facts. He should apologize to the Muslims
and get better advisers on Christian-Muslim relations.
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| User: "TUKA" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:54:46 PM |
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On 2006-09-20, Surfer <surfer@no.spam.net> wrote:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 11:17:59 -0700, Miriam Cohen
<mimiNOigalSPAM@cox.net> wrote:
and yet, that doesn't change the fact that the *ACTIONS* of the
Islamofascists in question have indeed proven the words of the Pope.
But do the Islamofascists represent Islam as a whole?
According to the following, they do not.
According to the fact that the terror attacks continue without
millions of Muslims raising hell about it, yes it does
represent Islam as a whole. They are much more likely to get
upset about some chance words of the pontiff than they are
the barbarous actions of their co-religionists.
So yes, it does represent Islam as a whole. Despite your
and others fancy doubletalk.
--
Software axiom: Lack of speed kills.
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| User: "ike milligan" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:57:01 AM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
Yes the swine pope wins the argument, and then we fight the Muslim hordes to
save your coward *****.
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| User: "serwad" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 01:27:22 AM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
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| User: "Sirknight67" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 01:29:52 AM |
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Of course not, because YOU'RE A FUCKING LYING SANDNIGGER, it was
MILLIONS OF ZOROASTRIANS, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY YOU ISLAMO-FASCIST PIGS
serwad wrote:
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
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| User: "JPG" |
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| Title: Re: Religionists' Reactions Proves Atheists' Point |
19 Sep 2006 03:27:19 AM |
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Sirknight67 wrote:
Of course not, because YOU'RE A FUCKING LYING SANDNIGGER, it was
MILLIONS OF ZOROASTRIANS, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY YOU ISLAMO-FASCIST PIGS
serwad wrote:
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
Well, if anyone had any doubts about becoming an atheist, the preceding
examples of religious bigotry should immediately dispel them.
A pox be on all their houses, I say.
JPG
aa 1919
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Religionists' Reactions Proves Atheists' Point |
19 Sep 2006 05:41:01 AM |
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JPG wrote:
Sirknight67 wrote:
Of course not, because YOU'RE A FUCKING LYING SANDNIGGER, it was
MILLIONS OF ZOROASTRIANS, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY YOU ISLAMO-FASCIST PIGS
serwad wrote:
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
Well, if anyone had any doubts about becoming an atheist, the preceding
examples of religious bigotry should immediately dispel them.
A pox be on all their houses, I say.
And I say, with no small amount of trepidation "Will we destory ourselves and the
whole human race before we superstitious humans realise that is all it is indeed
simply 'superstition' - no gods, no heavens, no free rides"?
JPG
aa 1919
Bob
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| User: "Sirknight67" |
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| Title: Re: Religionists' Reactions Proves Atheists' Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:49:59 PM |
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if you had half a brain you dim-witted moron, you'd realize it's not
about atheism or non atheism, it's about FREEDOM OF THOUGHT you leftist
imbecile
JPG wrote:
Sirknight67 wrote:
Of course not, because YOU'RE A FUCKING LYING SANDNIGGER, it was
MILLIONS OF ZOROASTRIANS, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY YOU ISLAMO-FASCIST PIGS
serwad wrote:
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
Well, if anyone had any doubts about becoming an atheist, the preceding
examples of religious bigotry should immediately dispel them.
A pox be on all their houses, I say.
JPG
aa 1919
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| User: "Sirknight67" |
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| Title: Re: Religionists' Reactions Proves Atheists' Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:49:52 PM |
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if you had half a brain you dim-witted mroon, you'd realize it's not
about atheism or non atheism, it's about FREEDOM OF THOUGHT you leftist
imbecile
JPG wrote:
Sirknight67 wrote:
Of course not, because YOU'RE A FUCKING LYING SANDNIGGER, it was
MILLIONS OF ZOROASTRIANS, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY YOU ISLAMO-FASCIST PIGS
serwad wrote:
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
Well, if anyone had any doubts about becoming an atheist, the preceding
examples of religious bigotry should immediately dispel them.
A pox be on all their houses, I say.
JPG
aa 1919
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| User: "alt" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 10:22:52 AM |
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:27:22 -0400, serwad wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
A Crusade that was brought in response to Muslim barbarity in treating
non-muslims.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 01:15:02 AM |
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alt wrote:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:27:22 -0400, serwad wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
A Crusade that was brought in response to Muslim barbarity in treating
non-muslims.
Well established - it is there for all to read and digest
nothing changes very much does it?
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| User: "alt" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 03:59:51 PM |
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 01:15:02 -0500, bob young wrote:
alt wrote:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 02:27:22 -0400, serwad wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
A Crusade that was brought in response to Muslim barbarity in treating
non-muslims.
Well established - it is there for all to read and digest
some of the best sources of how badly non-muslims were treated are the
hadiths.
nothing changes very much does it?
if we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it. some have wilfully
forgotten it and we see the fruits thereof.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 05:38:02 AM |
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serwad wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
OF COURSE HE NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS AND JEWS
SLAUGHTERED BY THE BARBARIAN CRUSADERS
OR 350,000 CONSTANTINOPLE CHRISTIANS SLAUGHTERED BY THE VENETIAN CRUSADERS
ON THE ORDERS OF THE POPE HIMSELF
You are not aware then that all religions and their gods are pure mythology
and that man kills others due to fear of entrapment, fear of losing their
freedom, and fear of losing their land. Their imaginary gods are simply used
as 'justification'
Such warfare has been going on for the past three million years. Try growing
up and living in a decent society as delineated by The United Nations of
which Israel is an accepted member.
Or does this not fit in with your corrupt hatred, lies and exaggerations.
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| User: "Newk Indofman" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
18 Sep 2006 11:59:44 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
They are truly barbarian, but Bill Donohue lecturing us about "a
demonstration of hatred" is truly hypocritical. This man drools with hatred,
and the Pope isn't that far behind.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 01:10:28 AM |
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Actually, the previous Pope was renowned for bringing peace to the
world, and this Pope so far is not much different. Do you disagree
with the emporers statements about Islam? So far, history says that
the emporer is correct. Hopefully this will start a dialogue within
Islam to revolutionize the faith and make it peaceful.
Newk Indofman wrote:
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4JadnVXg9M-H6JLYnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@giganews.com...
One must hold the utmost respect for Catholic League president Bill
Donohue,
an honest, decent man who doesn't mince his words. These Muslims who
threaten Catholics are true barbarians.
They are truly barbarian, but Bill Donohue lecturing us about "a
demonstration of hatred" is truly hypocritical. This man drools with hatred,
and the Pope isn't that far behind.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 08:45:36 AM |
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Hi, fd.
Tell you what. Let the Pope get the invading Western armies out of Iraq
and Afghanistan, and then we can have a debate on history.
You agree, I would imagine, that Christian jihads are just as
unacceptable as Islamic ones? You would agree, I imagine, that Frankish
(European) knights fighting crusades (that's just the English word for
jihad) were doing something very bad? You agree today there ought not
be Europeans and Americans fighting wars against Muslim nations? It
would seem a reasonable deduction based on your words.
Don't hesitate to correct me, if I misinterpreted your statement.
Peace,
H.
fdsertyuio@yahoo.com wrote:
Actually, the previous Pope was renowned for bringing peace to the
world, and this Pope so far is not much different. Do you disagree
with the emporers statements about Islam? So far, history says that
the emporer is correct. Hopefully this will start a dialogue within
Islam to revolutionize the faith and make it peaceful.
.
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| User: "BAM" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 11:31:54 AM |
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<honghsien@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158673536.400391.91760@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hi, fd.
Tell you what. Let the Pope get the invading Western armies out of Iraq
and Afghanistan, and then we can have a debate on history.
You agree, I would imagine, that Christian jihads are just as
unacceptable as Islamic ones?
You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by associating it
with Christians:
Jihad has been classified either as al-jihad al-akbar (the greater jihad),
the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihad al-asghar (the lesser
jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.
Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah
(struggle in the cause of God):[1]
a.. Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of
good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
b.. Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against
evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah
(proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
c.. Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for
good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal
reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
d.. Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against
evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj
pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly
parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the
cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
e.. Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah
(armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).
f.. Jihad of peace refers to the struggle to make peace in the world,
everywhere and anywhere.
BAM
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 12:05:10 PM |
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"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
<honghsien@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158673536.400391.91760@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hi, fd.
Tell you what. Let the Pope get the invading Western armies out of Iraq
and Afghanistan, and then we can have a debate on history.
You agree, I would imagine, that Christian jihads are just as
unacceptable as Islamic ones?
You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by associating it
with Christians:
Jihad has been classified either as al-jihad al-akbar (the greater jihad),
the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihad al-asghar (the lesser
jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.
Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah
(struggle in the cause of God):[1]
a.. Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle of
good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
b.. Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against
evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah
(proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
c.. Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle for
good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal
reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
d.. Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good against
evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj
pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly
parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering the
cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
e.. Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah
(armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).
f.. Jihad of peace refers to the struggle to make peace in the world,
everywhere and anywhere.
BAM
So, to summarize:
a: struggling against the impulse to sin.
b: preaching and proselytizing.
c: study of scriptures, theology, learning in general.
d: self-sacrifice, charity, and political activism,
e: "good" war.
f: working for peace.
You are saying that Christianity does not have corresponding
features?
-- cary
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| User: "BAM" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 02:38:07 PM |
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"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:eep806$nj6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
<honghsien@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158673536.400391.91760@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hi, fd.
Tell you what. Let the Pope get the invading Western armies out of Iraq
and Afghanistan, and then we can have a debate on history.
You agree, I would imagine, that Christian jihads are just as
unacceptable as Islamic ones?
You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by associating it
with Christians:
Jihad has been classified either as al-jihad al-akbar (the greater
jihad),
the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihad al-asghar (the lesser
jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.
Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah
(struggle in the cause of God):[1]
a.. Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle
of
good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
b.. Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against
evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah
(proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
c.. Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle
for
good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal
reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
d.. Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good
against
evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj
pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly
parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering
the
cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
e.. Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah
(armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).
f.. Jihad of peace refers to the struggle to make peace in the world,
everywhere and anywhere.
BAM
So, to summarize:
a: struggling against the impulse to sin.
b: preaching and proselytizing.
c: study of scriptures, theology, learning in general.
d: self-sacrifice, charity, and political activism,
e: "good" war.
f: working for peace.
You are saying that Christianity does not have corresponding
features?
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they took.
Secondly, the Pope was talking about forced conversions. Not Holy Wars.
BAM
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 03:05:58 PM |
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"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:eep806$nj6$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
<honghsien@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158673536.400391.91760@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hi, fd.
Tell you what. Let the Pope get the invading Western armies out of Iraq
and Afghanistan, and then we can have a debate on history.
You agree, I would imagine, that Christian jihads are just as
unacceptable as Islamic ones?
You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by associating it
with Christians:
Jihad has been classified either as al-jihad al-akbar (the greater
jihad),
the struggle against one's soul (nafs), or al-jihad al-asghar (the lesser
jihad), the external, physical effort, often implying fighting.
Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah
(struggle in the cause of God):[1]
a.. Jihad of the heart/soul (jihad bin nafs/qalb) is an inner struggle
of
good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid.
b.. Jihad by the tongue (jihad bil lisan) is a struggle of good against
evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah
(proselytizing), Khutbas (sermons), et al.
c.. Jihad by the pen and knowledge (jihad bil qalam/ilm) is a struggle
for
good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal
reasoning), and through sciences (such as medical sciences).
d.. Jihad by the hand (jihad bil yad) refers to a struggle of good
against
evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj
pilgrimage (seen as the best jihad for women), taking care of elderly
parents, providing funding for jihad, political activity for furthering
the
cause of Islam, stopping evil by force, or espionage.
e.. Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah
(armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war).
f.. Jihad of peace refers to the struggle to make peace in the world,
everywhere and anywhere.
BAM
So, to summarize:
a: struggling against the impulse to sin.
b: preaching and proselytizing.
c: study of scriptures, theology, learning in general.
d: self-sacrifice, charity, and political activism,
e: "good" war.
f: working for peace.
You are saying that Christianity does not have corresponding
features?
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
But that's beside the point, or at least beside my point, to wit:
you say "You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by
associating it ith Christians" -- and then you proceed to list
seven meanings to `jihad', any and all of which may be associated
with Christians. In fact, nearly all are entirely positive.
Secondly, the Pope was talking about forced conversions. Not Holy Wars.
And I wasn't talking about the Pope, I was talking about your
post. And since theologians from the Roman Catholic Church
have been trying to hammer out the concept of "just war" for
at least 15 centuries ("just war" being the term I meant to use)
then this last item, justifiable war waged for justifiable ends,
is also not foreign to Christianity.
-- ary
.
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| User: "BAM" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 05:54:51 PM |
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"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
But that's beside the point, or at least beside my point, to wit:
you say "You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by
associating it ith Christians" -- and then you proceed to list
seven meanings to `jihad', any and all of which may be associated
with Christians. In fact, nearly all are entirely positive.
He was using the term as a substitute for, say "suicide bomber".
Secondly, the Pope was talking about forced conversions. Not Holy Wars.
And I wasn't talking about the Pope, I was talking about your
post. And since theologians from the Roman Catholic Church
have been trying to hammer out the concept of "just war" for
at least 15 centuries ("just war" being the term I meant to use)
then this last item, justifiable war waged for justifiable ends,
is also not foreign to Christianity.
Partly true. The just war theory was never "hammered out" and certainly not
for 15 centuries.
BAM
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
19 Sep 2006 06:14:52 PM |
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"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
But that's beside the point, or at least beside my point, to wit:
you say "You don't know what jihad is and expose your ignorance by
associating it ith Christians" -- and then you proceed to list
seven meanings to `jihad', any and all of which may be associated
with Christians. In fact, nearly all are entirely positive.
He was using the term as a substitute for, say "suicide bomber".
Again, I was talking about your post, and not about the Pope's
little contretemps. You listed seven meanings for "jihad",
six of them entirely positive -- and then seemed to imply
that these had nothing in common with Christianity.
Secondly, the Pope was talking about forced conversions. Not Holy Wars.
And I wasn't talking about the Pope, I was talking about your
post. And since theologians from the Roman Catholic Church
have been trying to hammer out the concept of "just war" for
at least 15 centuries ("just war" being the term I meant to use)
then this last item, justifiable war waged for justifiable ends,
is also not foreign to Christianity.
Partly true. The just war theory was never "hammered out" and certainly not
for 15 centuries.
Hence my phrase "have been trying to"...
-- cary
.
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| User: "BAM" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 10:30:40 AM |
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"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:eeptlc$l7h$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Nope. You said cultures, not persons.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
I don't see anyone saying, "Do unto others", though they say "don't do unto
others". I also recognize that virtues can be achieved by reason without
revelation. But I'm asking where they took root.
Again, I was talking about your post, and not about the Pope's
little contretemps. You listed seven meanings for "jihad",
six of them entirely positive -- and then seemed to imply
that these had nothing in common with Christianity.
Not in the sense of a "struggle". And my point was not to say we had nothing
in common - my point was to show that the poster was using a western
interpretation of "jihad", and not in the Islamic sense.
Partly true. The just war theory was never "hammered out" and certainly
not
for 15 centuries.
Hence my phrase "have been trying to"...
You're just throwing out baloney - you know nothing about the development of
the just war theory. (here he goes to the search engines.........)
BAM
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 12:20:10 PM |
|
|
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:eeptlc$l7h$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Nope. You said cultures, not persons.
Confucius, as you may have noticed, had a bit of influence
on the culture of China.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
I don't see anyone saying, "Do unto others", though they say "don't do unto
others". I also recognize that virtues can be achieved by reason without
revelation. But I'm asking where they took root.
Again, I was talking about your post, and not about the Pope's
little contretemps. You listed seven meanings for "jihad",
six of them entirely positive -- and then seemed to imply
that these had nothing in common with Christianity.
Not in the sense of a "struggle". And my point was not to say we had nothing
in common - my point was to show that the poster was using a western
interpretation of "jihad", and not in the Islamic sense.
Partly true. The just war theory was never "hammered out" and certainly
not
for 15 centuries.
Hence my phrase "have been trying to"...
You're just throwing out baloney -
Since you clearly cannot read what I did write, I'm not sure how
you conclude that.
-- cary
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 12:15:47 AM |
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On 19-Sep-2006, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" < > wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
If Jesus ever said that, he took it directly from Torah.
Susan
.
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| User: "BAM" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 10:31:09 AM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:784Qg.10219$2P3.9642@trnddc02...
On 19-Sep-2006, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" < > wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what
they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
If Jesus ever said that, he took it directly from Torah.
Jesus is God, you ninny.
BAM
.
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| User: "yD" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 10:44:54 AM |
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BAM wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:784Qg.10219$2P3.9642@trnddc02...
On 19-Sep-2006, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" < > wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what
they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on, without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
If Jesus ever said that, he took it directly from Torah.
Jesus is God, you ninny.
Ouch! What about the first Commandment -- no other gods before me? If
you pray to Jesus isn't that putting the God Jesus first?
yD
BAM
.
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| User: "BAM" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslim Reaction Proves Pope's Point |
20 Sep 2006 08:00:15 PM |
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"yD" <yaffadina2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1158767094.690728.206490@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
BAM wrote:
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:784Qg.10219$2P3.9642@trnddc02...
On 19-Sep-2006, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
"BAM" <mcca5761@blahblahbellsouth.net>
"Cary Kittrell" < > wrote
First of all, Christianity predates Islam. So we only share what
they
took.
Extremely doubtful -- many cultures have concepts such as charity,
the value of education, the desirability of peace, and so on,
without
having to take these from Christianity.
Many? In 700 AD? Tell me about the many cultures.
I'll start with one: Confucius was extolling these virtues, among
others, over a millennium before Islam -- and half a millennium
before Christianity.
Do you seriously think that such virtues were not recognized
anywhere in the world before Jesus? Versions of the Golden
Rule... "As you wishe that men would do unto you" -- can
be found in Zorostrianaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Confucianism,
Hinduism, and others.
If Jesus ever said that, he took it directly from Torah.
Jesus is God, you ninny.
Ouch! What about the first Commandment -- no other gods before me? If
you pray to Jesus isn't that putting the God Jesus first?
yD
Will someone please tell him about the Trinity?
BAM
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