| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
09 May 2004 04:39:01 AM |
| Object: |
Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: May 9, 2004
HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators stated?
.
|
|
| User: "Martin Willett" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 09:35:07 AM |
|
|
maff wrote:
Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: May 9, 2004
HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
stated?
I doubt it, other than they would find it easier to empathize with the
victims.
Of course it was active born again Christians that were doing the
abusing. Under orders perhaps, but that doesn't wash since Nuremberg,
it is a soldier's duty to refuse to obey illegal orders.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Wayne Aiken" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 09:51:09 AM |
|
|
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
:>
:> By THE NEW YORK TIMES
:>
:> Published: May 9, 2004
:>
:>
:> HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
:> tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
:> there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
:> particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
: stated?
Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about. Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of those
eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing stunts, and
all hell breaks loose.
----
Wayne Aiken "You can BE what
PO Box 30904 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~aiken/ you WON'T!!"
Raleigh, NC 27622 AIM: slackx42 --"Bob"
(919) 954-5956
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jez" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
10 May 2004 12:39:34 AM |
|
|
"Wayne Aiken" <aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote in message
news:c7lggt$rii$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
:>
:> By THE NEW YORK TIMES
:>
:> Published: May 9, 2004
:>
:>
:> HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
:> tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
:> there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
:> particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
: stated?
Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
And, you should add, with the assistance of the USA and the UK !
The USA supplied satellite data that Saddam used to do some gassing.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Yang, AthD \h.c" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 01:13:17 PM |
|
|
"Wayne Aiken" <aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote in message
news:c7lggt$rii$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about. Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of those
eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing stunts, and
all hell breaks loose.
You obviously have not read the Taguba report. Do you think forcibly
sticking broomsticks up male detainees' asses and raping feamle POW count as
nothing more than "fraternity-style hazing stunts"?
Yang
.
|
|
|
| User: "pan" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 02:26:01 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 9 May 2004 11:13:17 -0700, "Yang, AthD \(h.c\)"
<eacmole@//AWOLBUSH//mail.com> wrote:
"Wayne Aiken" <aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote in message
news:c7lggt$rii$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu...
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about. Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of those
eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing stunts, and
all hell breaks loose.
You obviously have not read the Taguba report. Do you think forcibly
sticking broomsticks up male detainees' asses and raping feamle POW count as
nothing more than "fraternity-style hazing stunts"?
It depends on which fraternity you're talking about. ;-P
pan
Yang
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 05:15:25 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 9 May 2004 14:51:09 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Aiken
<aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
:>
:> By THE NEW YORK TIMES
:>
:> Published: May 9, 2004
:>
:>
:> HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
:> tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
:> there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
:> particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
: stated?
Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
Sigh. WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS. And Saddam was supposed to
be the bad guy. It might come as a surprise to you, but nobody is
surprised when the bad guy does bad things BUT THE GOOD GUYS AREN'T
SUPPOSED TO DO THEM. That's what makes the difference between him and
us.
Your tu quoque doesn't excuse it.
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about. Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of those
eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing stunts, and
all hell breaks loose.
----
Wayne Aiken "You can BE what
PO Box 30904 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~aiken/ you WON'T!!"
Raleigh, NC 27622 AIM: slackx42 --"Bob"
(919) 954-5956
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
10 May 2004 02:51:38 AM |
|
|
Wayne Aiken <aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote in message news:<c7lggt$rii$1@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>...
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
:>
:> By THE NEW YORK TIMES
:>
:> Published: May 9, 2004
:>
:>
:> HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
:> tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
:> there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and Arabs
:> particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
: stated?
Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about. Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of those
eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing stunts, and
all hell breaks loose.
So you're willing to sacrifice your life and money for the cause?
----
Wayne Aiken "You can BE what
PO Box 30904 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~aiken/ you WON'T!!"
Raleigh, NC 27622 AIM: slackx42 --"Bob"
(919) 954-5956
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Martin Willett" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 10:52:50 AM |
|
|
Wayne Aiken wrote:
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/weekinreview/09cell.html
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: May 9, 2004
HE whole world was outraged by the photographs of Iraqis being
tortured and mistreated at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. But were
there religious and cultural differences that made Muslims and
Arabs
particularly outraged by this treatment, as many commentators
stated?
Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the
protests
over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about.
Its
a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of
those eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing
stunts, and all hell breaks loose.
Actually I have been calling for Saddam Hussein to be shat upon from a
great height since 1983, I'm sorry it took me so long to find out what
kind of a man he was.
Of course it isn't alright to torture and abuse prisoners, or to
arbitrarily arrest people or just have them murdered. That's why he
has been marked out as a particularly nasty form of tyrant for
decades. But for most of that time the CIA considered him one of their
sons-of-bitches. Not so people with consistent moral values such as
Amnesty International.
Hazing, as you euphemistically call it is wrong in *all*
circumstances, whether done by brother Marmalade, Private Lynndie
England or one of Saddam's torturers.
Being a civilized country is a full time job.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Wayne Aiken" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
09 May 2004 11:51:22 AM |
|
|
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: Wayne Aiken wrote:
:> Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:>>> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
:> acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
:> whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
:>
:> Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the
: protests
:> over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
:> have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about.
: Its
:> a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of
:> those eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing
:> stunts, and all hell breaks loose.
: Hazing, as you euphemistically call it is wrong in *all*
: circumstances, whether done by brother Marmalade, Private Lynndie
: England or one of Saddam's torturers.
I agree- what the prison guards did was clearly wrong and the problem
definitely does need to be addressed. But lets keep things in the proper
context. What they did, regardless of how outrageous it was, hardly
compares to business-as-usual under Saddam.
And, having seen first-hand what happens in fraternities, a lot of
the pictures we've seen isn't too far removed from what happens to
pledges on any given weekend. Rumsfeld remarked during his testimony
that there were lots of other pictures and videos that we haven't
seen, so I assume that these show worse abuse. But I don't think its
too unreasonable to assume that even that level of abuse is far, far
less then Saddam's goons dispensed on a regular basis.
You'd hardly know that, though, if you look at the "outrage" coming
from certain groups.
If things are really so bad in Iraq, where are those "human shields" ??
Why did they vanish once Saddam was overthrown?
----
Wayne Aiken "You can BE what
PO Box 30904 http://www4.ncsu.edu/~aiken/ you WON'T!!"
Raleigh, NC 27622 AIM: slackx42 --"Bob"
(919) 954-5956
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kate " |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians |
10 May 2004 01:35:05 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 9 May 2004 16:51:22 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Aiken
<aiken@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: Wayne Aiken wrote:
:> Martin Willett <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:>>> Muslims Were Outraged; So Were Christians
:> Where was the world-wide outrage when Saddam was committing *real*
:> acts of terrorism on a massive scale against his own people, many of
:> whom were not criminals nor terrorists?
:>
:> Of course the religious/cultural differences are fueling the
: protests
:> over the current episode of mistreatment. And put in perspective, I
:> have to wonder if this is really all that the protests are about.
: Its
:> a-ok for Saddam to kill and rape and mutilate, but let a bunch of
:> those eeeevil Westerners pull a series of fraternity-style hazing
:> stunts, and all hell breaks loose.
: Hazing, as you euphemistically call it is wrong in *all*
: circumstances, whether done by brother Marmalade, Private Lynndie
: England or one of Saddam's torturers.
I agree- what the prison guards did was clearly wrong and the problem
definitely does need to be addressed. But lets keep things in the proper
context. What they did, regardless of how outrageous it was, hardly
compares to business-as-usual under Saddam.
And, having seen first-hand what happens in fraternities, a lot of
the pictures we've seen isn't too far removed from what happens to
pledges on any given weekend. Rumsfeld remarked during his testimony
that there were lots of other pictures and videos that we haven't
seen, so I assume that these show worse abuse. But I don't think its
too unreasonable to assume that even that level of abuse is far, far
less then Saddam's goons dispensed on a regular basis.
Excuse me? Hazing is consented to. The hazed people can walk away at
any time. Prisoners can't. You obviously have no idea what abuse
is. Your morality is questionable.
I don't think that because Saddam was really really horrible it's OK
for us to do anything that wasn't as bad as what he did.
By your questionably moral logic it's OK for the US to grind a
person's arm off because Saddam ground up the whole person alive.
We are a civilized nation. What was shown was not civilized actions.
Anyone who would excuse such a thing as just a 'stunt' deserves to
stand and watch his own son or daughter forcibly sodomized by another
nation and hear his leaders explain it away as just a 'prank'.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
