Muslims who support secular French

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Paul Abeles"
Date:	10 Feb 2004 04:49:22 PM
Object:	Muslims who support secular French

" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	11 Feb 2004 12:36:49 AM

"Stranger" <spinner@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4029a25d$0$569$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...

"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3VgWb.8939$%X3.4311@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UugWb.40778$9k7.840013@news.xtra.co.nz...

Susan Cohen wrote:

"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...

Susan Cohen wrote:

Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely

chase

off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they
intended.

It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.

I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."

They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They have the right to do that.

Of course. It doesn't mean I have to like it, or that I will ignore
the flaws.

Susan

There is an easy way to avoid it. Go to a religious school.

Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point.
They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are

punishing

them twice.

Susan

bla bla bla bla

Not that I said anything *untrue* of course.,

"I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."

So what would a effective measure be then?

Tell me, Mr. Blabla, do you know what the problem being addressed IS?
I do. & all they'd have to do is punish the transgressors.
But I also know what would happen if they did.
I see why the French pursued this measure - to save themselves a little
extra trouble.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	11 Feb 2004 02:57:34 AM

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>religious schools?
Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>That's my point.
Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are punishing
:>them twice.
Are they?
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	11 Feb 2004 03:21:28 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

:>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>religious schools?

Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.

No, I don't.
Stop mischaracterizing my position.

:>That's my point.

Then why is it OK in the USA?

No, it isn't.
Susan

:>They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are

punishing

:>them twice.

Are they?

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	11 Feb 2004 03:52:20 AM

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:
:>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> :>religious schools?
:>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>No, I don't.
:>Stop mischaracterizing my position.
You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that the public
schools violate their religious beliefs?
:>> :>That's my point.
:>> Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>No, it isn't.
Then why do you fight against school vouchers?
:>> :>They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are
:>punishing
:>> :>them twice.
:>> Are they?
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	11 Feb 2004 09:06:58 PM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:

:>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> :>religious schools?

:>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.

:>No, I don't.
:>Stop mischaracterizing my position.

You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that the

public

schools violate their religious beliefs?

No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government money
doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,
especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's religious
rights.

:>> :>That's my point.

:>> Then why is it OK in the USA?

:>No, it isn't.

Then why do you fight against school vouchers?

See above.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 02:48:14 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:
:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> :>> :>religious schools?
:>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.
:>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that the
:>public
:>> schools violate their religious beliefs?
:>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government money
:>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,
Yet you asserted
"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point."
Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law allows
it?
If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.
:>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's religious
:>rights.
Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid.
I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools violate their
faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids there.
:>> :>> :>That's my point.
:>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>> :>No, it isn't.
:>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?
:>See above.
Your statement was:
"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point."
Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law allows
it?
If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 05:14:55 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:

:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"

<flaviaR@verizon.net>

:>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to

go to

:>> :>> :>religious schools?

:>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.

:>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.

:>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that the
:>public
:>> schools violate their religious beliefs?

:>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government money
:>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,

Yet you asserted

"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point."

Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
that do not impinge on anyone else.

Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law

allows

it?

I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
do not impinge on anyone else.

If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.

I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
do not impinge on anyone else.

:>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's

religious

:>rights.

Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid.

I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools violate

their

faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids there.

It's not my fault that these people have weord versions of their religions
which force them to impinge on the rights of others.

:>> :>> :>That's my point.

:>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?

:>> :>No, it isn't.

:>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?

:>See above.

Your statement was:

"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point."

I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
do not impinge on anyone else.

Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law

allows

it?

I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
do not impinge on anyone else.

If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.

I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
do not impinge on anyone else.
Susan

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:05:30 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:
:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to
:>go to
:>> :>> :>> :>religious schools?
:>> :>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>> :>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.
:>> :>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that the
:>> :>public
:>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?
:>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government money
:>> :>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,
:>> Yet you asserted
:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools?
:>> That's my point."
:>Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?
:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
:>do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.
:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
:>do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>religious
:>> :>rights.
:>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid.
:>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools violate
:>their
:>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
:>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids there.
:>It's not my fault that these people have weord versions of their religions
:>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.
"Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid."
:>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.
:>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>> :>> :>No, it isn't.
:>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?
:>> :>See above.
:>> Your statement was:
:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools?
:>> That's my point."
:>I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
:>do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?
:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
:>do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows it.
:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices that
:>do not impinge on anyone else.
If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Norma"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 08:55:41 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:spqm2010chqvf2ebbagv4rc933se01cbit@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:

:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen"

<flaviaR@verizon.net>

:>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in

message

:>> :>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced

:>go to
:>> :>> :>> :>religious schools?

:>> :>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.

:>> :>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.

:>> :>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that

the

:>> :>public
:>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?

:>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government

money

:>> :>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,

:>> Yet you asserted

:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools?
:>> That's my point."

:>Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

:>that do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows

it.

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>religious
:>> :>rights.

:>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider

valid.

:>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools

violate

:>their
:>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
:>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids

there.

:>It's not my fault that these people have weord versions of their

religions

:>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.

"Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid."

:>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.

:>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?

:>> :>> :>No, it isn't.

:>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?

:>> :>See above.

:>> Your statement was:

:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools?
:>> That's my point."

:>I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

it.

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

This is silly... Why are you being so trite? France is very different from
the uSA--I thought everyone knew that. Norma

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 09:16:01 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:55:41 -0600 "Norma" <norma2339@charter.net> wrote:
:>This is silly... Why are you being so trite? France is very different from
:>the uSA--I thought everyone knew that. Norma
France is different than the USA, but a point of principle does not change.
If Susan truly believes that
"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools? That's my point."
as a point of principle, it follows that
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
If it is right when the USA does it but wrong when the French do it (or vice
versa), then it isn't a point of principle - it is merely a cheap political
statement.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 09:50:21 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:md5n20l21stkgghku1q6o9v6hf47n9bcfq@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:55:41 -0600 "Norma" <norma2339@charter.net> wrote:

:>This is silly... Why are you being so trite? France is very different

from

:>the uSA--I thought everyone knew that. Norma

France is different than the USA, but a point of principle does not

change.
The practices of the countries are diamentrically opposed, they are on
opposite sides of the principle.

If Susan truly believes that

"Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools? That's my point."

How can I truly believe a QUESTION??

as a point of principle, it follows that

If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.

But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
No amount of pretense is going to change that.

If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA

does

it.

But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
No amount of pretense is going to change that.

If it is right when the USA does it but wrong when the French do it (or

vice

versa), then it isn't a point of principle - it is merely a cheap

political

statement.

But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
No amount of pretense is going to change that.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 10:34:55 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:50:21 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:md5n20l21stkgghku1q6o9v6hf47n9bcfq@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:55:41 -0600 "Norma" <norma2339@charter.net> wrote:
:>> :>This is silly... Why are you being so trite? France is very different
:>from
:>> :>the uSA--I thought everyone knew that. Norma
:>> France is different than the USA, but a point of principle does not
:>change.
:>The practices of the countries are diamentrically opposed, they are on
:>opposite sides of the principle.
In which way?
There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools, yet you
insist that the government need not remit their taxes. In fact, you would
fight tooth and nail against such a remittance.
:>> If Susan truly believes that
:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools? That's my point."
:>How can I truly believe a QUESTION??
Pitiful dodge.
:>> as a point of principle, it follows that
:>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
:>But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
:>No amount of pretense is going to change that.
They are doing the same thing, but at different levels.
There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.
:>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA
:>does
:>> it.
:>But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
:>No amount of pretense is going to change that.
They are doing the same thing, but at different levels.
There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.
:>> If it is right when the USA does it but wrong when the French do it (or
:>vice
:>> versa), then it isn't a point of principle - it is merely a cheap
:>political
:>> statement.
:>But the US is not doing what the French are doing.
:>No amount of pretense is going to change that.
They are doing the same thing, but at different levels.
There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Tilly"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 05:00:06 PM

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.

Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
religious education for their children..
They aren't denied entry to public schools.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
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User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:33:38 PM

"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UzTWb.42550$9k7.880976@news.xtra.co.nz...

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.

Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
religious education for their children..
They aren't denied entry to public schools.

& they aren't kept from dressing religiously, or showing that that they are
religious, or being religious in any way. Accomodation is always made for
children in US public schools. Unless you DON'T ask.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	13 Feb 2004 03:07:25 AM

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:33:38 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:>news:UzTWb.42550$9k7.880976@news.xtra.co.nz...
:>> Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> > There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.
:>> Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
:>> religious education for their children..
:>> They aren't denied entry to public schools.
:> & they aren't kept from dressing religiously,
1. The Sikh religion requires men to carry a dagger at all times.
2. There is no law requiring a Jewish man to wear a head covering while taking
secular education.
3. Based on what I see of Moslems in Israel, there is no requirement for the
woman to cover her hair.
4. And there are other religions.
I do recognize that you feel that only religions that you recognize as not
"weird" should be supported, but I do not feel that it is the job of a secular
state to determine what is a valid religion.
:> or showing that that they are
:>religious, or being religious in any way. Accomodation is always made for
:>children in US public schools. Unless you DON'T ask.
False.
As above.
And why is clothing the only determinate of a acceptable environment?
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 05:23:24 PM

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:00:06 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious schools.
:>Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
:>religious education for their children..
Or because what the public schools do violates their faith.
:>They aren't denied entry to public schools.
Just like France.
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Tilly"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 05:53:31 PM

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:00:06 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious
schools.

Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
religious education for their children..

Or because what the public schools do violates their faith.

You think public schools should allow the practise of all religions in
school?
All of them, including Wicca and Satanism?

They aren't denied entry to public schools.

Just like France.

The French have the right to legislate as they wish. They are a secular
democracy, but then we know you don't like democracy at least not for Jews
in Israel.

If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do
it.

I never said that.

If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the
USA does it.

Says who? Every democracy has the right to legislate as they wish, without
interference from the outside world.
Tilly
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User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:29:51 PM

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:53:31 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:00:06 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com>
:>> wrote:
:>>>> Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>>>>> There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious
:>>>>> schools.
:>>>> Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
:>>>> religious education for their children..
:>> Or because what the public schools do violates their faith.
:>You think public schools should allow the practise of all religions in
:>school?
:>All of them, including Wicca and Satanism?
What is the relevance of the question?
As to my political belief, I feel that vouchers should be given to anyone who
wishes to leave the public school system, for whatever reason.
:>>>> They aren't denied entry to public schools.
:>> Just like France.
:>The French have the right to legislate as they wish. They are a secular
:>democracy, but then we know you don't like democracy at least not for Jews
:>in Israel.
Then we have no argument in this area.
Susan asserts otherwise.
:>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do
:>> it.
:>I never said that.
I did.
:>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the
:>> USA does it.
:>Says who? Every democracy has the right to legislate as they wish, without
:>interference from the outside world.
What does that have to do with the issue?
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Norma"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	13 Feb 2004 07:19:33 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:ue6o20prvek80go39tkspf3g91bmiovc9q@4ax.com...

who

wishes to leave the public school system, for whatever reason.

In my state the Voucher System works very well. There is nothing but good
that has come from it. Let's keep the special interest groups away from the
public, there is enough to deal with anyway. Norma

:>>>> They aren't denied entry to public schools.

:>> Just like France.

:>The French have the right to legislate as they wish. They are a secular
:>democracy, but then we know you don't like democracy at least not for

Jews

:>in Israel.

Then we have no argument in this area.

Susan asserts otherwise.

:>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do
:>> it.

:>I never said that.

I did.

:>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the
:>> USA does it.

:>Says who? Every democracy has the right to legislate as they wish,

without

:>interference from the outside world.

What does that have to do with the issue?

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:37:53 PM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:ue6o20prvek80go39tkspf3g91bmiovc9q@4ax.com...

If you think religion should be practiced in public schools, then you have
to admit all religious practices.

As to my political belief, I feel that vouchers should be given to anyone

who

wishes to leave the public school system, for whatever reason.

Then you want your tax dollars to go to support Xianity, Wiccanism &
Satanism?
I know I don't.

Jews

:>in Israel.

Then we have no argument in this area.

Susan asserts otherwise.

No, not at all.
You simply wish I did.
I never said they couldn't do it.

:>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do
:>> it.

:>I never said that.

I did.

:>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the
:>> USA does it.

:>Says who? Every democracy has the right to legislate as they wish,

without

:>interference from the outside world.

What does that have to do with the issue?

You just agreed to it above, & said that I didn't.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	13 Feb 2004 03:07:20 AM

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:37:53 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:ue6o20prvek80go39tkspf3g91bmiovc9q@4ax.com...
:>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:53:31 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>> :>Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> :>> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:00:06 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com>
:>> :>> wrote:
:>> :>>>> Binyamin Dissen wrote:
:>> :>>>>> There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious
:>> :>>>>> schools.
:>> :>>>> Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
:>> :>>>> religious education for their children..
:>> :>> Or because what the public schools do violates their faith.
:>> :>You think public schools should allow the practise of all religions in
:>> :>school?
:>> :>All of them, including Wicca and Satanism?
:>> What is the relevance of the question?
:>If you think religion should be practiced in public schools, then you have
:>to admit all religious practices.
When did I ever say that I wish religion to be practiced in public schools?
Would you like some cream with that red herring?
:>> As to my political belief, I feel that vouchers should be given to anyone
:>who
:>> wishes to leave the public school system, for whatever reason.
:>Then you want your tax dollars to go to support Xianity, Wiccanism &
:>Satanism?
:>I know I don't.
The private schools educate at much lower costs than public schools.
Less money will be going to them.
:>> :>>>> They aren't denied entry to public schools.
:>> :>> Just like France.
:>> :>The French have the right to legislate as they wish. They are a secular
:>> :>democracy, but then we know you don't like democracy at least not for
:>Jews
:>> :>in Israel.
:>> Then we have no argument in this area.
:>> Susan asserts otherwise.
:>No, not at all.
:>You simply wish I did.
:>I never said they couldn't do it.
You said it was wrong.
:>> :>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do
:>> :>> it.
:>> :>I never said that.
:>> I did.
:>> :>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the
:>> :>> USA does it.
:>> :>Says who? Every democracy has the right to legislate as they wish,
:>without
:>> :>interference from the outside world.
:>> What does that have to do with the issue?
:>You just agreed to it above, & said that I didn't.
You said that what the French is doing is wrong.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	13 Feb 2004 01:35:34 AM

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:53:31 +1300, "Tilly" <Ditsy1_3@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:00:06 +1300 "Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Binyamin Dissen wrote:

There are those in the USA that are forced to go to religious
schools.

Only because their parents want them to go there because they want a
religious education for their children..

Or because what the public schools do violates their faith.

You think public schools should allow the practise of all religions in
school?
All of them, including Wicca and Satanism?

*Especially* wicca and satanism.
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:31:20 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:spqm2010chqvf2ebbagv4rc933se01cbit@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

<flaviaR@verizon.net>

:>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in

message

the

:>> :>public
:>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?

:>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government

money

practices

:>that do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

:>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows

it.

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

:>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>religious
:>> :>rights.

:>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider

valid.

:>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools

violate

:>their
:>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
:>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids

there.

:>It's not my fault that these people have weird versions of their

religions

:>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.

"Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid."

You mean according to YOUR faith or those faiths YOU consider valid.

:>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.

:>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?

:>> :>> :>No, it isn't.

:>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?

:>> :>See above.

:>> Your statement was:

:>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> religious schools?
:>> That's my point."

:>I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

:>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>allows
:>> it?

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

:>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows

it.

:> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices

that

:>do not impinge on anyone else.

If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
Susan

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 06:53:42 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:31:20 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:spqm2010chqvf2ebbagv4rc933se01cbit@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:
:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>> :>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in
:>message
:>> :>> :>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:>> :><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced
:>to
:>> :>go to
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>religious schools?
:>> :>> :>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>> :>> :>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>> :>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.
:>> :>> :>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find that
:>the
:>> :>> :>public
:>> :>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?
:>> :>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government
:>money
:>> :>> :>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the Constitution,
:>> :>> Yet you asserted
:>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> That's my point."
:>> :>Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
:>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>> :>allows
:>> :>> it?
:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
:>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows
:>it.
:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
:>> :>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>> :>religious
:>> :>> :>rights.
:>> :>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider
:>valid.
:>> :>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools
:>violate
:>> :>their
:>> :>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would go
:>> :>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids
:>there.
:>> :>It's not my fault that these people have weird versions of their
:>religions
:>> :>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.
:>> "Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider valid."
:>You mean according to YOUR faith or those faiths YOU consider valid.
No.
I didn't make the judgment call that "these people have weird versions of
their religions which force them to impinge on the rights of others."
YOU DID.
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.
:>> :>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>> :>> :>> :>No, it isn't.
:>> :>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?
:>> :>> :>See above.
:>> :>> Your statement was:
:>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
:>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> That's my point."
:>> :>I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
:>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the law
:>> :>allows
:>> :>> it?
:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
:>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law allows
:>it.
:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious practices
:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of principle
rather than cheap politics:
If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA does
it.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 09:05:45 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:1htm20dieb6s5q7mbj43u0mdhmf0dnmfao@4ax.com...

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:31:20 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>

wrote:

:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:spqm2010chqvf2ebbagv4rc933se01cbit@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:

:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen"

<flaviaR@verizon.net>

:>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in

message

:>> :>> :>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in
:>message
:>> :>> :>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:>> :><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>> :>wrote:

:>> :>> :>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people

forced

:>to
:>> :>go to
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>religious schools?

:>> :>> :>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.

:>> :>> :>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>> :>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.

:>> :>> :>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find

that

:>the
:>> :>> :>public
:>> :>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?

:>> :>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government
:>money
:>> :>> :>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the

Constitution,

:>> :>> Yet you asserted

:>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go

:>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> That's my point."

:>> :>Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that do not impinge on anyone else.

:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of

principle

rather than cheap politics:

If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.

If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA

does

it.

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people t be religious in school, France does.

:>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the

law

:>> :>allows
:>> :>> it?

:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

:>that
:>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.

:>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.

:>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.

:>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.

No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of

principle

rather than cheap politics:

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people to be religious in school, France does.

:>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law

allows

:>it.

:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

principle

rather than cheap politics:

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people to be religious in school, France does.

:>> :>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>> :>religious
:>> :>> :>rights.

:>> :>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider
:>valid.

:>> :>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools
:>violate
:>> :>their
:>> :>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would

:>> :>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids
:>there.

:>> :>It's not my fault that these people have weird versions of their
:>religions
:>> :>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.

:>> "Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider

valid."

:>You mean according to YOUR faith or those faiths YOU consider valid.

No.

I didn't make the judgment call that "these people have weird versions of
their religions which force them to impinge on the rights of others."

YOU DID.

But you obviously do, because the US doesn't make it impossible for people
to be religious in school, France does.

:>> :>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.

:>> :>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?

:>> :>> :>> :>No, it isn't.

:>> :>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?

:>> :>> :>See above.

:>> :>> Your statement was:

:>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go

:>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> That's my point."

:>> :>I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

principle

rather than cheap politics:

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people to be religious in school, France does.

:>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the

law

:>> :>allows
:>> :>> it?

:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

principle

rather than cheap politics:

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people to be religious in school, France does.
..

:>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law

allows

:>it.

:>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious

practices

principle

rather than cheap politics:

No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
people to be religious in school, France does
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 09:36:41 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:05:45 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:1htm20dieb6s5q7mbj43u0mdhmf0dnmfao@4ax.com...
:>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:31:20 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>wrote:
:>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>news:spqm2010chqvf2ebbagv4rc933se01cbit@4ax.com...
:>> :>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:55 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>> :>> :>news:7tem20d7mf0tiaanok0pth4g250otpbelv@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:06:58 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in
:>message
:>> :>> :>> :>news:1ouj20tbv48al4634ak6e0tkab64knjrol@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:21:28 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:>> :><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in
:>> :>message
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>news:uhrj209bdmj9kncnqfouv6kshlkroaora3@4ax.com...
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:00:15 GMT "Susan Cohen"
:>> :>> :><flaviaR@verizon.net>
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>wrote:
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>forced
:>> :>to
:>> :>> :>go to
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>religious schools?
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> Yet you fight against this concept in the USA.
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>No, I don't.
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>Stop mischaracterizing my position.
:>> :>> :>> :>> You don't fight against school vouchers for people who find
:>that
:>> :>the
:>> :>> :>> :>public
:>> :>> :>> :>> schools violate their religious beliefs?
:>> :>> :>> :>No, I fight against school vouchers so that American government
:>> :>money
:>> :>> :>> :>doesn't go to fund religious insitutions against the
:>Constitution,
:>> :>> :>> Yet you asserted
:>> :>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go
:>to
:>> :>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> :>> That's my point."
:>> :>> :>Yes. I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>> :>practices
:>> :>> :>that do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>> If it is right when the USA does it, it is right when the French do it.
:>> If it is wrong when the French do it, it is equally wrong when the USA
:>does
:>> it.
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people t be religious in school, France does.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the
:>law
:>> :>> :>allows
:>> :>> :>> it?
:>> :>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that
:>> :>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people to be religious in school, France does.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law
:>allows
:>> :>it.
:>> :>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that
:>> :>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people to be religious in school, France does.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> :>especially since American public schools do NOT violate anyone's
:>> :>> :>religious
:>> :>> :>> :>rights.
:>> :>> :>> Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider
:>> :>valid.
:>> :>> :>> I know both Jews and non-Jews that feel that the public schools
:>> :>violate
:>> :>> :>their
:>> :>> :>> faith and if forced to send their kids to the public schools would
:>go
:>> :>> :>> underground, and would remain in jail rather than send their kids
:>> :>there.
:>> :>> :>It's not my fault that these people have weird versions of their
:>> :>religions
:>> :>> :>which force them to impinge on the rights of others.
:>> :>> "Perhaps according to YOUR faith or those faiths that YOU consider
:>valid."
:>> :>You mean according to YOUR faith or those faiths YOU consider valid.
:>> No.
:>> I didn't make the judgment call that "these people have weird versions of
:>> their religions which force them to impinge on the rights of others."
:>> YOU DID.
:>But you obviously do, because the US doesn't make it impossible for people
:>to be religious in school, France does.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> :>That's my point.
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>> Then why is it OK in the USA?
:>> :>> :>> :>> :>No, it isn't.
:>> :>> :>> :>> Then why do you fight against school vouchers?
:>> :>> :>> :>See above.
:>> :>> :>> Your statement was:
:>> :>> :>> "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go
:>to
:>> :>> :>> religious schools?
:>> :>> :>> That's my point."
:>> :>> :>I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that
:>> :>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people to be religious in school, France does.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> Is your point qualified by supporting the taking of money when the
:>law
:>> :>> :>allows
:>> :>> :>> it?
:>> :>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that
:>> :>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people to be religious in school, France does.
:>.
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
:>> :>> :>> If so, how is it different than the French case where the law
:>allows
:>> :>it.
:>> :>> :> I am against the government interfering in private religious
:>practices
:>> :>that
:>> :>> :>do not impinge on anyone else.
:>> :>> If it is in France, it is equally in the USA.
:>> :>> If it isn't in the USA, it isn't in France either.
:>> :>So you agree with me that the French are wrong & the US is right.
:>> No. If your stand of "Is the government going to remit the taxes of people
:>> forced to go to religious schools? That's my point." is a point of
:>principle
:>> rather than cheap politics:
:>No, it's a stand of principle because the US doesn't make it impossible for
:>people to be religious in school, France does
Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state "these
people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge on
the rights of others."
Of course, that grants others the right to equally state that those religious
beliefs that YOU support are "weird versions of their religions which force
them to impinge on the rights of others" and not worthy of support.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
.

User: "Susan Cohen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 09:48:32 AM

"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
news:hr6n20prbo5qrr9od1afphrejvh0s3t6eo@4ax.com...

Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state

"these

people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge

the rights of others."

Why not - you do.
Susan
.

User: "Binyamin Dissen"
Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French	12 Feb 2004 10:34:54 AM

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:48:32 GMT "Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
:>"Binyamin Dissen" <postingid@dissensoftware.com> wrote in message
:>news:hr6n20prbo5qrr9od1afphrejvh0s3t6eo@4ax.com...
:>> Only if one excludes practitioners of those religions of whom you state
:>"these
:>> people have weird versions of their religions which force them to impinge
:>on
:>> the rights of others."
:>Why not - you do.
In what way?
I do keep the Halachic definition of Judaism, thus I declare the reformed, j4j
and conservative practices are not Judaism. I do fully accept that the
reformed, conservative and j4j are religions.
If one truly believes that the "government" should "remit the taxes