| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Abeles" |
| Date: |
10 Feb 2004 04:49:22 PM |
| Object: |
Muslims who support secular French |
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
.
|
|
| User: "Brian Westley" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 11:49:33 AM |
|
|
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> writes:
....
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
I think France is making a huge mistake, and any government
that can mandate that religious articles not be worn also
has the implicit power to mandate that religious articles
MUST be worn. I'm against any government having that kind
of authority over its citizens.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "amigocabal" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 08:16:42 PM |
|
|
Not many muslims, yours truly included, are against this kind of law, as
long as everyone is treated equitably. Being a muslim I see no sense in the
hijab, nor is there anything in the Holy Quran that requires it. I wish they
would pass this kind of law here in United states.
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SddWb.51047$Wa.14586@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
.
|
|
|
| User: "hayden_flare" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 12:04:52 PM |
|
|
"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message news:<eggWb.20077$jH6.8800@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Not many muslims, yours truly included, are against this kind of law, as
long as everyone is treated equitably.
agreed, although reading the crap on ARI you'd think we were all
preparing a major revenge operation like this article posted by a
resident dumbass called "The Beginning of the French Jihad?"
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11709
Being a muslim I see no sense in the
hijab, nor is there anything in the Holy Quran that requires it. I wish they
would pass this kind of law here in United states.
america does its own thing and it works, no need to fix what isn't
broken
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SddWb.51047$Wa.14586@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
.
|
|
|
| User: "amigocabal" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 06:44:14 PM |
|
|
"hayden_flare" <alifred23@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:540e45e1.0402111004.5489c7cb@posting.google.com...
"amigocabal" <pinkspider123@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:<eggWb.20077$jH6.8800@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
Not many muslims, yours truly included, are against this kind of law, as
long as everyone is treated equitably.
agreed, although reading the crap on ARI you'd think we were all
preparing a major revenge operation like this article posted by a
resident dumbass called "The Beginning of the French Jihad?"
It is the major purpose of Zionists to discredit muslims everywhere, by any
means at their disposal.
They have been quite effective at it since most muslims do not bother with
challenging Jews, because
of their obnoxious nature.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11709
Being a muslim I see no sense in the
hijab, nor is there anything in the Holy Quran that requires it. I wish
they
would pass this kind of law here in United states.
america does its own thing and it works, no need to fix what isn't
broken
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SddWb.51047$Wa.14586@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is
to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old
Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf
outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and
will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in
the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a
mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is
taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Martin Thomas" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 10:44:10 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:49:22 GMT in alt.atheism
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote:
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
If, when I was at school, a law had been passed banning the Roman
Catholic Mass from school hours I would have been delighted -
even when I was a believer. I went to mass every Sunday to stay
out of Hell, but I also had to go every Friday at school because
otherwise the monks would have hit me with a piece of wood.
And it was so boring!
The monks who ran the school had freedom of religion and an
essential part of their religion consisted of forcing me to do
all kinds of boring crap. I would have been a lot freer if there
had been less freedom of religion around.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
.
|
|
|
| User: "Paul Abeles" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 11:52:09 PM |
|
|
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message
news:bool20lfgdinfn5jlqbj98f3ca25rf5d11@4ax.com...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:49:22 GMT in alt.atheism
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote:
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and
will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/intern
ational1505EST0668.DTL
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
If, when I was at school, a law had been passed banning the Roman
Catholic Mass from school hours I would have been delighted -
even when I was a believer. I went to mass every Sunday to stay
out of Hell, but I also had to go every Friday at school because
otherwise the monks would have hit me with a piece of wood.
And it was so boring!
The monks who ran the school had freedom of religion and an
essential part of their religion consisted of forcing me to do
all kinds of boring crap. I would have been a lot freer if there
had been less freedom of religion around.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
I had similar experiences.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "amigocabal" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
12 Feb 2004 07:31:15 AM |
|
|
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote in message
news:bool20lfgdinfn5jlqbj98f3ca25rf5d11@4ax.com...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:49:22 GMT in alt.atheism
"Paul Abeles" <nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote:
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and
will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/intern
ational1505EST0668.DTL
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
Are you kidding? try forcing any teenager muslim or not to do anything!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jenny6833A" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
16 Feb 2004 12:18:37 PM |
|
|
"amigocabal" says
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
Are you kidding? try forcing any teenager muslim or not to do anything!
Actually, it's easy. One just ensures that any girl who doesn't wear the scarf
is beaten up, gang-raped, or disfigured.
Until that kind of enforcement ends, no one will know for sure how many Muslim
females wear the scarf (or other paraphenalia) by choice.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
.
|
|
|
| User: "Thomas P." |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
17 Feb 2004 04:27:05 AM |
|
|
On 16 Feb 2004 18:18:37 GMT, jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A)
wrote:
"amigocabal" says
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
Are you kidding? try forcing any teenager muslim or not to do anything!
Actually, it's easy. One just ensures that any girl who doesn't wear the scarf
is beaten up, gang-raped, or disfigured.
Until that kind of enforcement ends, no one will know for sure how many Muslim
females wear the scarf (or other paraphenalia) by choice.
And, until you show that such behavior was common, the above comment
is irrelevant. We have lots of Moslems where I live. Most of them
did not wear head scarves until others started making an issue out of
them. It is pretty funny that people get all upset about girls having
head scarves (a common secular fashion at one time), when one
considers the extremes of fashion that are typical at many schools
today. It is also ironic that, after all the talk about the dangers
of intolerant Moslems, it is the Christian majority that is behaving
intolerantly.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jenny6833A" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
17 Feb 2004 06:43:01 PM |
|
|
Thomas P. says
jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A)
wrote:
"amigocabal" says
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
Are you kidding? try forcing any teenager muslim or not to do anything!
Actually, it's easy. One just ensures that any girl who doesn't wear the
scarf
is beaten up, gang-raped, or disfigured.
Until that kind of enforcement ends, no one will know for sure how many
Muslim
females wear the scarf (or other paraphenalia) by choice.
And, until you show that such behavior was common, the above comment
is irrelevant.
Read the French press. Listen to French radio. Go to a French public school
-- especially in the large cities.
We have lots of Moslems where I live.
Which isn't in France.
Most of them
did not wear head scarves until others started making an issue out of
them.
Or until they were forced to.
It is pretty funny that people get all upset about girls having
head scarves (a common secular fashion at one time), when one
considers the extremes of fashion that are typical at many schools
today.
The resemblance between the two kinds of scarves is minimal.
It is also ironic that, after all the talk about the dangers
of intolerant Moslems, it is the Christian majority that is behaving
intolerantly.
The idea that the overwhelming majority of the French public is Christian shows
you to be as out of date as your use of the word "Moslem."
When in the French public schools, the French idea is, "We're all French here,
or want to be. We're here to learn academics, French language, and French
culture in a secular environment. Religion is a personal matter for your
personal time. We don't do religion on shcool time. Here, we're all just
generic French."
You may not agree with that policy, but that *is* the policy. It's worked very
well for France for a very long time.
And they're determined to continue it.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
.
|
|
|
| User: "Thomas P." |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
18 Feb 2004 01:52:38 AM |
|
|
On 18 Feb 2004 00:43:01 GMT, jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A)
wrote:
Thomas P. says
jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A)
wrote:
"amigocabal" says
"Martin Thomas" <mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net> wrote
There is a question I have not seen addressed: How many Muslim
school girls wear the head scarves voluntarily?
Are you kidding? try forcing any teenager muslim or not to do anything!
Actually, it's easy. One just ensures that any girl who doesn't wear the
scarf
is beaten up, gang-raped, or disfigured.
Until that kind of enforcement ends, no one will know for sure how many
Muslim
females wear the scarf (or other paraphenalia) by choice.
And, until you show that such behavior was common, the above comment
is irrelevant.
Read the French press. Listen to French radio. Go to a French public school
-- especially in the large cities.
Read what I said again. The great majority of of women who wear the
scarf do so because they want to. Only a very small minority of
Moslems have committed violence against women for not wearing it. No
religion is free of fanatics.
We have lots of Moslems where I live.
Which isn't in France.
totally irrelevant.
Most of them
did not wear head scarves until others started making an issue out of
them.
Or until they were forced to.
I see. They were not forced to before others made an issue out of it,
but now they are forced to? The families suddenly became fanatical
and violent?
It is pretty funny that people get all upset about girls having
head scarves (a common secular fashion at one time), when one
considers the extremes of fashion that are typical at many schools
today.
The resemblance between the two kinds of scarves is minimal.
The major difference is the motivation for wearing them. I clearly
remember when many women and girls had their heads completely covered
by scarves.
It is also ironic that, after all the talk about the dangers
of intolerant Moslems, it is the Christian majority that is behaving
intolerantly.
The idea that the overwhelming majority of the French public is Christian shows
you to be as out of date as your use of the word "Moslem."
The overwhelming majority is Christian, Catholic to be specific.
Whether or not they are practicing Christians or take it seriously or
not is another question. They did not push for new laws because
people wore crosses that were too big.
When in the French public schools, the French idea is, "We're all French here,
or want to be. We're here to learn academics, French language, and French
culture in a secular environment. Religion is a personal matter for your
personal time. We don't do religion on shcool time. Here, we're all just
generic French."
And how do head scarves prevent that exactly?
You may not agree with that policy, but that *is* the policy. It's worked very
well for France for a very long time.
And they're determined to continue it.
I am also for the strict separation of state and religion. The
present policy is new and it is directed at one group. It is a
demagogic political response to the rise of racism and religious
bigotry.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Luwit" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 04:47:03 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:49:22 GMT, "Paul Abeles"
<nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote:
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/international1505EST0668.DTL
I've been following this closely. My esteem of the French has
certainly risen. Well done.
--
To email, the part before @ should be "Luwit"
.
|
|
|
| User: "M C" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 06:59:24 PM |
|
|
"Luwit" <ReadMySig@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:cb6d1e5610e2a68529151fc5ed38488b@news.teranews.com...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:49:22 GMT, "Paul Abeles"
<nospampaabeles@hotmail.com> wrote:
" But other Muslims here believe the key to successful integration is to
adopt the values of their adopted land.
"I arrived in France and adapted to this country," said 65-year-old Telly
Naar, who came from Morocco 40 years ago. "Everyone should be able to
practice religion at home. If one wants to wear the head scarf outside,
fine, but not inside a school that is secular."
Some said the debate exposed the danger of Islamic fundamentalism and
will
help roll back radicalism.
"Until now, families were alone in fighting fundamentalists, often in the
shadows, and at danger to their safety," said Hanifa Cherifi, a mediator
for
the national education system on the head scarf issue.
The debate "lifted the veil on fundamentalist thinking, which is taking a
population hostage," she told parliamentary television.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/10/intern
ational1505EST0668.DTL
I've been following this closely. My esteem of the French has
certainly risen. Well done.
--
To email, the part before @ should be "Luwit"
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lord Calvert" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 05:28:11 PM |
|
|
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
Catholics are crying too. The Pope has publicly opposed the measure. Since
France is largely Catholic I think you'll see opposition to the measure grow
over time.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
.
|
|
|
| User: "Divin Marquis" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 03:16:19 AM |
|
|
Le Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:28:11 +0000, Lord Calvert a écrit :
Catholics are crying too. The Pope has publicly opposed the measure. Since
France is largely Catholic I think you'll see opposition to the measure
grow over time.
Practicing catholics are crying, all 5% of them.
Big fucking deal!
And the more they cry, the more it's going to pass. Catholics are not
popular here. Never been very popular since Pétain, anyway.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Martin Thomas" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 07:39:26 AM |
|
|
On 10 Feb 2004 23:28:11 GMT in alt.atheism
forlornh@aol.complex (Lord Calvert) wrote:
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
Catholics are crying too. The Pope has publicly opposed the measure. Since
France is largely Catholic I think you'll see opposition to the measure grow
over time.
The French government has refused to obey the pope since the
reign of Philip IV - often called Philip the Fair - 1285 to 1314.
French catholics are used to the idea that the secular government
should take precedence over the Pope's wishes.
-
Martin Thomas
Official "Teddy Bear" Atheist
mart666t@netscape.NO.HAWKERS.net
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jenny6833A" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 06:56:23 PM |
|
|
forlornh@aol.complex (Lord Calvert) says
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
Catholics are crying too.
Damn few.
The Pope has publicly opposed the measure.
The pope isn't French.
Since France is largely Catholic ...
A myth. The French get baptized in a church, then throw a big party.
They get married at city hall by the mayor, sometimes have another ceremony in
a church, then throw a big party.
And, when they die, someone in the family insists on a church service, and the
others often give in. It makes dividing up the furniture easier.
In the meantime, they go to midnight mass on New Years Eve, then party the rest
of the night and well into the next day.
It's called tradition. The French are big on tradition.
In fact, the overwhelming majority are functional atheists. They pay about as
much attention to the opinions of the pope as they do to the opinions of the
dogcatcher in Timbucktoo.
I think you'll see opposition to the measure grow
over time.
Perhaps, but not for the reasons you give.
:-)
Jenny
.
|
|
|
| User: "JPG" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 02:37:56 AM |
|
|
On 11 Feb 2004 00:56:23 GMT, jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A) wrote:
forlornh@aol.complex (Lord Calvert) says
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
Catholics are crying too.
Damn few.
The Pope has publicly opposed the measure.
The pope isn't French.
Since France is largely Catholic ...
A myth. The French get baptized in a church, then throw a big party.
They get married at city hall by the mayor, sometimes have another ceremony in
a church, then throw a big party.
And, when they die, someone in the family insists on a church service, and the
others often give in. It makes dividing up the furniture easier.
In the meantime, they go to midnight mass on New Years Eve, then party the rest
of the night and well into the next day.
It's called tradition. The French are big on tradition.
In fact, the overwhelming majority are functional atheists. They pay about as
much attention to the opinions of the pope as they do to the opinions of the
dogcatcher in Timbucktoo.
I think you'll see opposition to the measure grow
over time.
Perhaps, but not for the reasons you give.
The French public schools don't wear school uniform AFAIAA and therefore they
don't have the problem they have in British schools where Muslim girls are
allowed to cover their legs by wearing trousers, even though the school uniform
stipulates skirts.
JPG
:-)
Jenny
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Eric P." |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
12 Feb 2004 04:58:28 PM |
|
|
forlornh@aol.complex (Lord Calvert) wrote in message news:<20040210182811.24788.00001700@mb-m16.aol.com>...
This ban is for all religious items but it seems only muslims are crying
about it and calling it anti-muslim. Screw them.
Catholics are crying too. The Pope has publicly opposed the measure. Since
France is largely Catholic I think you'll see opposition to the measure grow
over time.
Few French's are really committed Catholics, most of them only go to
the Church for marriage and Baptism, sometime Christmas. Catholic
Church's is opposed to the measure but very quietly. Church used to
interfere in the French policy until the beginning of the XX° century,
but so faced back 150 years of harassing from the different
governments (with some exceptions). Mostly, the 3rd Republic
(1870(?)-1940) were extremely secularist and very tough toward the
Church : closing of religious institutions, expropriations, including
sometime with army investing Church's...
After years and years of harassment, Catholic Church got off and
almost do not interfere in French political life by now (that is why
we only hear Muslim's) and stay very discreet, and so, most of the
people and governments are now indifferent about Christian Religion.
Please excuse my bad English
Regards,
Eric
France
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Tilly" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 07:41:50 PM |
|
|
Luwit wrote:
I've been following this closely. My esteem of the French has
certainly risen. Well done.
Agreed and since it is applied equally to all religions it is fair.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.574 / Virus Database: 364 - Release Date: 29/01/04
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 07:58:53 PM |
|
|
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BLfWb.40734$9k7.839827@news.xtra.co.nz...
Luwit wrote:
I've been following this closely. My esteem of the French has
certainly risen. Well done.
Agreed and since it is applied equally to all religions it is fair.
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific problem,
but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one group, even if that
one group is the cause of the trouble (& the complaints being made by that
group ar proof of this), but I think the measures will not actually address
the problem, but merely chase off the worst offenders. Which could very well
be what they intended.
Susan
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tilly" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 08:07:18 PM |
|
|
Susan Cohen wrote:
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely chase
off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they intended.
Susan
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally. They have
the right to do that.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.574 / Virus Database: 364 - Release Date: 29/01/04
.
|
|
|
| User: "Daniel Bernard" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 01:02:31 AM |
|
|
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally. They
have
the right to do that.
If you ignore the political logic behind the bill, it is designed to simply
make all children in public schools visually equal. No Christians, No
Muslims, No Jews, No Sikhs. Only French children all equal together.
Furthermore, a recent poll stated that 40% of French Muslim women supported
the ban.
--
with regards,
DB
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bernardz" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 06:04:26 AM |
|
|
In article <4029d384$0$10341$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,=20
kissingcatherine@ch=E2teaubernard.fr says...
=20
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally. They
have
the right to do that.
If you ignore the political logic behind the bill, it is designed to simp=
ly
make all children in public schools visually equal. No Christians, No
Muslims, No Jews, No Sikhs. Only French children all equal together.
Furthermore, a recent poll stated that 40% of French Muslim women support=
ed
the ban.
=20
The French have made no decision on Sikhs. They maybe exempt from this=20
ruling.
--=20
A department of the government runs itself. In that it is run for its=20
employees benefit first.
Observations of Bernard - No 43=20
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mekkala" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
11 Feb 2004 09:51:52 AM |
|
|
On Wed 11 Feb 2004 06:04:26a, Bernardz <Bernard_zzz@REMOVEhotmail.com>
kicked back with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke up, lit
up a joint, then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting out:
In article <4029d384$0$10341$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
kissingcatherine@châteaubernard.fr says...
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They
have
the right to do that.
If you ignore the political logic behind the bill, it is designed to
simp
ly
make all children in public schools visually equal. No Christians, No
Muslims, No Jews, No Sikhs. Only French children all equal together.
Furthermore, a recent poll stated that 40% of French Muslim women
support
ed
the ban.
The French have made no decision on Sikhs. They maybe exempt from this
ruling.
My understanding is that the ruling is accross-the-board, no religious
symbols for anybody at all. So, yeah, that would apply to Sikhs.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"Atheism is ... the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
--Emmett F. Fields
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bernardz" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
12 Feb 2004 07:37:59 AM |
|
|
In article <Xns948C64D7918F6Mekkala@199.45.49.11>,=20
joremovedathiskimtoreply@attbi.com says...
On Wed 11 Feb 2004 06:04:26a, Bernardz <Bernard_zzz@REMOVEhotmail.com>
kicked back with a beer, ruminated at length, fell asleep, woke up, lit
up a joint, then fell asleep again after thoughtfully blurting out:=20
=20
In article <4029d384$0$10341$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,=20
kissingcatherine@ch=E2teaubernard.fr says...
=20
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They=20
have
the right to do that.
If you ignore the political logic behind the bill, it is designed to
simp=20
ly
make all children in public schools visually equal. No Christians, No
Muslims, No Jews, No Sikhs. Only French children all equal together.
Furthermore, a recent poll stated that 40% of French Muslim women
support=20
ed
the ban.
=20
=20
The French have made no decision on Sikhs. They maybe exempt from this
ruling.
=20
=20
=20
My understanding is that the ruling is accross-the-board, no religious=20
symbols for anybody at all. So, yeah, that would apply to Sikhs.
=20
The Sikhs distinctive head dress is not a religious symbol. As such it=20
is not affected but it is under review now and the French could rule=20
that it is to be banned.
=20
--=20
A department of the government runs itself. In that it is run for its=20
employees benefit first.
Observations of Bernard - No 43=20
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 08:25:36 PM |
|
|
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely chase
off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they intended.
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious bigotry",
rather than "an effective measure to actually address the problem."
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally. They
have
the right to do that.
Of course. It doesn't mean I have to like it, or that I will ignore the
flaws.
Susan
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tilly" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 08:31:56 PM |
|
|
Susan Cohen wrote:
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely chase
off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they
intended.
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They have the right to do that.
Of course. It doesn't mean I have to like it, or that I will ignore
the flaws.
Susan
There is an easy way to avoid it. Go to a religious school.
Tilly
--
Bright1_3@hotmail.com
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.574 / Virus Database: 364 - Release Date: 29/01/04
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 09:00:15 PM |
|
|
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UugWb.40778$9k7.840013@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely chase
off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they
intended.
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They have the right to do that.
Of course. It doesn't mean I have to like it, or that I will ignore
the flaws.
Susan
There is an easy way to avoid it. Go to a religious school.
Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point.
They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are punishing
them twice.
Susan
.
|
|
|
| User: "Stranger" |
|
| Title: Re: Muslims who support secular French |
10 Feb 2004 09:43:45 PM |
|
|
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3VgWb.8939$%X3.4311@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UugWb.40778$9k7.840013@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"Tilly" <Bright1_3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7gWb.40759$9k7.839306@news.xtra.co.nz...
Susan Cohen wrote:
Well, I have to disagree to a certain extent.
I can see why they instituted the measures; they have a terrific
problem, but they do not want to be seen as focusing on any one
group, even if that one group is the cause of the trouble (& the
complaints being made by that group ar proof of this), but I think
the measures will not actually address the problem, but merely chase
off the worst offenders. Which could very well be what they
intended.
It would have been plain bigotry if it hadn't been applied equally.
I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."
They want a secular country where all people are treated equally.
They have the right to do that.
Of course. It doesn't mean I have to like it, or that I will ignore
the flaws.
Susan
There is an easy way to avoid it. Go to a religious school.
Is the government going to remit the taxes of people forced to go to
religious schools?
That's my point.
They are not only punishing the innocent w/the guilty, they are punishing
them twice.
Susan
bla bla bla bla
"I see that, except that it's "across-the-board anti-religious
bigotry", rather than "an effective measure to actually address the
problem."
So what would a effective measure be then?
-Stranger
To truthfully believe in a doctrine such as after life, without questioning.
Is to base it on "naivety / ignorance" and "fear / arrogance".
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
