On Apr 20, 11:59 am,

On Apr 20, 6:15 am,

On Apr 20, 8:58 am, "Tom Sr." <tomswif...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Re: Mussolini was not an atheism-adherent"

For political reasons, Mussolini claimed to be a Catholic.
Do you think Mussolini was a Catholic?
Do you think Mussolini thought Mussolini was a Catholic?

One of the tenets of Catholics and Christians is to delude yourself
into believing you're something you're not.

Including believing one's self is an omniscient, omnipotent,
omnipresent entity?

The atheism-adherent Mussolini belongs on the list of individuals in

become like famous mass-killer atheists, and have others worship youhttp:=

worship of one's selfhttp://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3Ddford3-115540=

Mussolini's picture was in numerous locations in Italy, giving the
residents of Italy the sense that Mussolini was omnipresent.
It was the same situation in Iraq for Saddam. An Iraqi joke went
something like:
'What's the population of Iraq?'
'60 million, with 3 quarters of the population being pictures of
Saddam.'

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////=

Mindreader Mitchell's sloppy 'reasoning' regarding Saddam's viewshttp://g=

some atheism-adherents' development and use of brutal terror tacticshttp:=

Hitler and Mussolini certainly thought himself as a Catholic.

Do you think Goebbels considered Hitler "a Catholic"?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////=

1943 Goebbels & Hitler agree on "the insanity of the Christian
doctrine of redemption"

Goebbels, Joseph. 1948. _The Goebbels Diaries: 1942-1943_, edited,
translated, and with an introduction by Louis P. Lochner (NY:
Doubleday & Company, Inc.), 566pp. Brackets and elisions aren't mine;
on 374-5, from the entry for 12 May 1943:

At noon I went to see the Fuehrer.

The Fuehrer has received a letter from Cardinal Bertram in which the
latter complained bitterly about the alleged suppression of the
churches. The Fuehrer intends to reply to this letter and to inform
Bertram that a large number of the Catholic clergy were assuming so
treasonable an attitude toward the war that the Cardinal had better
look after these matters, rather than gripe about conditions that the
Fuehrer, too, regrets and that he is constantly trying to remedy.

I took the position in talking with the Fuehrer that the old cardinals
of the type of Faulhaber and Bertram are much less dangerous than the
young reverends who are serving at the front as army chaplains and
even
wear the Iron Cross of the First Class. These give us much more
trouble, for they rate high with the people. They are the fighting
type and know how to talk with their war experience as background.
The
Fuehrer agreed with me. We must be somewhat on our guard about such
clerics.

[Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich was
internationally famed for his outspoken opposition to the
Nazi regime. Many of his boldest sermons were
circulated secretly. Several attempts on his life were
made by Nazi rowdies. Cardinal Adolf Bertram of
Breslau was the senior cardinal in Germany, and, as such,
the presiding officer of the annual Fulda Bishops'
Conference which, during the Nazi regime, issued
pastoral letters that had to be taken to the individual
parishes secretly for reading to the congregations.]

The churches have always played a dubious role during wars, at least
with us. They won't tolerate a leader going his own way, especially
if
he has a private point of view on religious matters. The Fuehrer
characterized it as nothing short of absurd that Frederick the Great,
for instance, was buried under the cupola of the Potsdam Garrison
Church, contrary to his wish to be interred beside his dogs in the
park
of Sans Souci. Thank God, English air raids have compelled us to end
this condition. The coffin of Frederick the Great has been placed
where it is safe from bombs. The Fuehrer will never restore it to the
Potsdam Garrison Church. Either an imposing mausoleum in Greek style
is to be built for Frederick the Great in the park of Sans Souci, or
he
is to be laid to rest in the great Soldiers' Hall of a new War
Ministry
yet to be constructed. Personally I should prefer that the wish of
the
great king be fulfilled and that he be given his last resting place in
Sans Souci. The Fuehrer, too, rather inclines to this view. But
these
are problems that we shall have to face only on the morrow.

The Fuehrer spoke very derogatorily about the arrogance of the higher
and lower clergy. The insanity of the Christian doctrine of
redemption
really doesn't fit at all into our time. Nevertheless there are
learned, educated men, occupying high positions in public life, who
cling to it with the faith of a child. It is simply incomprehensible
how anybody can consider the Christian doctrine of redemption as a
guide for the difficult life of today. The Fuehrer cited a number of
exceptionally drastic and in part even grotesque examples. The
opinionated "sky pilots" of course know exactly how the world is
constituted. Whereas the most learned and wisest scientists struggle
for a whole lifetime to study but one of the mysterious laws of
nature,
a little country priest from Bavaria is in a position to decide this
matter on the basis of his religious knowledge. One can regard such a
disgusting performance only with disdain. A church that does not keep
step with modern scientific knowledge is doomed. It may take quite a
while, but it is bound finally to happen. Anybody who is firmly
rooted
in daily life, and who can only faintly imagine the mystic secrets of
nature, will naturally be extremely modest about the universe. The
clerics, however, who have not caught a breath of such modesty,
evidence a sovereign opinionated attitude toward questions of the
universe....

The Fuehrer showed that he had read about and studied all these
problems. There is hardly a fact, hardly a theory, hardly a date,
that
he doesn't know and that he isn't able to cite from memory. I have
the
greatest respect for the Fuehrer's tremendous intellectual achievement
in all fields of knowledge. It is a pity that such talks can't be
made
known to a lot of people. Their veneration for the Fuehrer could only
be increased thereby.

The Fuehrer is an enthusiastic advocate of pure science.... It was a
great mistake that we failed to win science over to support the new
state. That men such as Planck are reserved, to put it mildly, in
their attitude toward us, is the fault of Rust and is irremediable.
It
makes one sad to think that the Fuehrer is so tremendously interested
in the tasks and researches of science, and yet our research men and
scientists do not realize this because they don't know it. The
mediocre talents in the Reich Government are a wall between the
Fuehrer
and many sec-tors of public life. That is true of science, it is true
of administration, it is true of justice, and of many other things.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Hitler opposed Christianityhttp://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/=

Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheismhttp://groups.google.co.=

Dawkins & Hitler observation re: conflicting religionshttp://groups.googl=

"[Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Munich was internationally famed
for his outspoken opposition to the Nazi regime. ....Cardinal Adolf
Bertram"
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?htt=

resistance to Hitlerhttp://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3Ddford3-1146158=

On 20 Apr 2007 06:35:27 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Mussolini was probably as good a "Christian" as Oral Roberts or Pat
Robinson.

Better, I'd say.
He certainly carried on the OT tradition of irrational and bloody
genocide.

Hatterwrote:

On Apr 20, 9:28 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:

"DanielSan" <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message

news:ju2dnQXgc6hBKrXbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com...

dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:

Mussolini was an atheism-adherent.

Roman-Catholic and vehemently anti-Communist. Nice try, though.

As was Hitler.

Born Roman-Catholic, later advocated "Positive Christianity" and espoused
beliefs that Christianity's job was to exterminate all threats to the
religion, and the biggest threat, in Hitler's mind, was Judaism.

Nice try on both parts. It's been debunked eleventy-billion times
already, though.

--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************

And what these -- 'Hitler and Stalin were atheists' -- proponents neglect to
include in their assertions is that the 'inner circles' of both monsters
included out-and-out 'Christians' whose duty to the 'Lord' -- one would
think -- would be to *prevent* these demented monsters from perpetrating
their monstrous acts!

Greywolf-

At least with Stalin, the've got a leg to stand on. As to Mussolini
and Hitler....all evidence points to them being Christian. Sppeech,
pictures, documents, church held documents...I mean it is quite
literally tons of evidence. Why do they feel this need to make such
outrageously baldfaced lies when there is an atheistic tyrant, Stalin,
to gibber on about. At least the BASIC VERIFIABLE FACT will support
it.

I hate to give succor to those I oppose, but I will not bend my
ideology of 'a fact is a fact' for anybody...including me.

The problem I have the entire argument is that it ties the entire group
to the actions of that person.

"Since Stalin was an atheist and he killed many people, that means that
atheism is evil."
"Since Hitler was a Chrsitian and he killed many people, that means that
Christianity is evil."

Religion (and the lack thereof) are amoral. It is what the members of
the individual groupings do that are moral or immoral.

However, atheists would never bring up Hitler's Christianity (for
example) if Christians wouldn't try to equate Hitler to atheism and,
vicariously, atheism to mass murder.

--

On 20 Apr 2007 07:23:56 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 20, 9:28 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:

"DanielSan" <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message

news:ju2dnQXgc6hBKrXbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com...

dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:

Mussolini was an atheism-adherent.

Roman-Catholic and vehemently anti-Communist. Nice try, though.

As was Hitler.

Born Roman-Catholic, later advocated "Positive Christianity" and
espoused
beliefs that Christianity's job was to exterminate all threats to the
religion, and the biggest threat, in Hitler's mind, was Judaism.

Nice try on both parts. It's been debunked eleventy-billion times
already, though.

--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************

And what these -- 'Hitler and Stalin were atheists' -- proponents
neglect to
include in their assertions is that the 'inner circles' of both monsters
included out-and-out 'Christians' whose duty to the 'Lord' -- one would
think -- would be to *prevent* these demented monsters from perpetrating
their monstrous acts!

Greywolf-

At least with Stalin, the've got a leg to stand on. As to Mussolini
and Hitler....all evidence points to them being Christian. Sppeech,
pictures, documents, church held documents...I mean it is quite
literally tons of evidence. Why do they feel this need to make such
outrageously baldfaced lies when there is an atheistic tyrant, Stalin,
to gibber on about. At least the BASIC VERIFIABLE FACT will support
it.

They think quantity of bad evidence trumps quality of one single piece
of good.

On 20 Apr 2007 07:23:56 -0700, Hatter <Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 20, 9:28 am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:

"DanielSan" <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message

news:ju2dnQXgc6hBKrXbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com...

dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:

Mussolini was an atheism-adherent.

Roman-Catholic and vehemently anti-Communist. Nice try, though.

As was Hitler.

Born Roman-Catholic, later advocated "Positive Christianity" and espoused
beliefs that Christianity's job was to exterminate all threats to the
religion, and the biggest threat, in Hitler's mind, was Judaism.

Nice try on both parts. It's been debunked eleventy-billion times
already, though.

--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************

And what these -- 'Hitler and Stalin were atheists' -- proponents neglect to
include in their assertions is that the 'inner circles' of both monsters
included out-and-out 'Christians' whose duty to the 'Lord' -- one would
think -- would be to *prevent* these demented monsters from perpetrating
their monstrous acts!

Greywolf-

At least with Stalin, the've got a leg to stand on. As to Mussolini
and Hitler....all evidence points to them being Christian. Sppeech,
pictures, documents, church held documents...I mean it is quite
literally tons of evidence. Why do they feel this need to make such
outrageously baldfaced lies when there is an atheistic tyrant, Stalin,
to gibber on about. At least the BASIC VERIFIABLE FACT will support
it.

They think quantity of bad evidence trumps quality of one single piece
of good.-

dford3@gl.umbc.edu wrote:

On Apr 21, 9:25 am, "Andrealphus" <NOTAREALEMAI...@FAM.NET> wrote:

In News nemo0037-63BF51.17483720042...@news.west.earthlink.net,,
*nemo* at
nemo0...@earthlink.dieSPAM.net, typed this:

In article <1177072721.307962.262...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:

Mussolini was an atheism-adherent.

Some of the things I've read from him would lead one to think that.

Well, except for the whole being raised and baptized a Catholic schtick.

Of those "raised and baptized a Catholic," what percent that become 30
year olds are Catholic when 30? 100%?

3 non-Catholics as 30-year-olds:
Hitler.
Himmler.
Goebbels.

Sorry, bub. No evidence of them being non-Catholic up to the end.