| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Anthony Williams" |
| Date: |
11 Jun 2005 11:06:12 PM |
| Object: |
my faith has took a massive blow |
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
.
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
18 Jun 2005 05:51:50 PM |
|
|
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alt.atheism > the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive
blow - View Parsed
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:41:59 -0500
From: "Johnny P" <Smithy9...@adelphia.net>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
References: <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>
<Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121>
<42abc2ae$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>
<e702b1dee6hlpkojihoio7ro6e5p55ms17@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive
blow
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:42:06 -0400
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Perhaps it is you that is being led away with a bunch of lies. The
monster is good at it I can tell you that.
stoney;
Really, moron? Gosh, you're more than welcome to objectively support
your droolings.
"stoney" <sto...@the.net> wrote in message
news:e702b1dee6hlpkojihoio7ro6e5p55ms17@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:05:54 +1000, <tflemi...@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden'
especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
And you demonstrate the fact nicely.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as
the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on
beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
Just like Santa Claus delivers toys to all the good girls and boys.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies.
The ***** you considers 'pearls of wisdom' are just balls of *****.
jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
LMAO at the brainless newbie.
"Woden" <w...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"Anthony Williams" <truthsee...@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
11 Jun 2005 11:23:56 PM |
|
|
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 12:05:54 AM |
|
|
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden' especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies. jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 08:31:31 AM |
|
|
<tfleming1@hotkey.net.au> wrote in
news:42abc2ae$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au:
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden'
especially your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they
think the common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll
eat it all up.
Bwahahahaha. That pretty much describes religion.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost
as convincing as the suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's
all. life goes on beyond the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would
swallow such blatant lies. jesus was a historical person, any
historian will tell you that. so bring on the debate woden the
unwise.
Fine, then show us one primary historical reference to Jesus. i.e.
something non-biblical written by a contemporary of Jesus who was witness
to his life.
(snip)
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be
the year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on
this earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but
is there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible.
Here are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Masked Avenger" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 08:05:52 AM |
|
|
wrote:
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden' especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies. jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
***** .... most historians will tell you there is no evidence for an
historical Jesus ..... show us some cites that are credible for your
assertion ....
--
Masked Avenger
aa#2224
EAC Chief Technician in charge of remotely rigging Fundie 'Spell
Checkers' so they all look like hick home schooled yokels
Does Schroedinger's cat have 18 half lives ?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 10:31:56 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:05:54 +1000, <tfleming1@hotkey.net.au> drained
his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that.
Really? Then show the contemporary evidence of his existence.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
15 Jun 2005 11:34:28 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:05:54 +1000, <tfleming1@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden' especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
And you demonstrate the fact nicely.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
Just like Santa Claus delivers toys to all the good girls and boys.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies.
The ***** you considers 'pearls of wisdom' are just balls of *****.
jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
LMAO at the brainless newbie.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Johnny P" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
15 Jun 2005 11:42:06 PM |
|
|
Perhaps it is you that is being led away with a bunch of lies. The monster
is good at it I can tell you that.
t
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:e702b1dee6hlpkojihoio7ro6e5p55ms17@4ax.com...
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:05:54 +1000, <tfleming1@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden'
especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
And you demonstrate the fact nicely.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as
the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on
beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
Just like Santa Claus delivers toys to all the good girls and boys.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies.
The ***** you considers 'pearls of wisdom' are just balls of *****.
jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
LMAO at the brainless newbie.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 07:59:32 AM |
|
|
"Johnny P" <Smithy9367@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:p56dnWPmoomKnizfRVn-rQ@adelphia.com...
Perhaps it is you that is being led away with a bunch of lies. The
monster
is good at it I can tell you that.
What "monster" would that be, deary?
If you're referring to that ficticious character known as Satan, don't
forget who created him (according to the myth of christianity).
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
.
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| User: "Masked Avenger" |
|
| Title: Re: the second coming was Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 06:57:51 AM |
|
|
Johnny P wrote:
Perhaps it is you that is being led away with a bunch of lies. The monster
is good at it I can tell you that.
<snip>
What monster might that be ? ......... oh, and it's bad manners to top
post ......
--
Masked Avenger
aa#2224
EAC Chief Technician in charge of remotely rigging Fundie 'Spell
Checkers' so they all look like hick home schooled yokels
Does Schroedinger's cat have 18 half lives ?
.
|
|
|
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|
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 01:04:26 AM |
|
|
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot
of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years
reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that
the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I
guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist
long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me
just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago???
Here is an excellent resource:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean
isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No
proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
Is 'Wednesday' proof that Woden lived? Is 'Thursday' proof that Thor lived?
--
rb #2187
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Katt" |
|
| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
11 Jun 2005 11:48:16 PM |
|
|
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
If I may say so, you deserve *congratulations* for having thought you way
through everything you were made to believe! Not every person is able to do
that!
I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me
just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact???
Apparently it is *isn't* a 'historical fact'. For the following eight points
are nowadays pretty well established:
i) that there are no genuine contemporary or near-contemporary references to
the Christian 'Jesus' *at all*;
ii) that the place referred to as 'Nazareth' simply didn't exist then as any
kind of settlement;
iii) that none of the 'Gospels' were actually written by the people whose
names are on them;
iv) that all of the 'Gospels' were put together by people who weren't even
eye-witnesses;
v) that these 'Gospels' were only actually written down more (perhaps much
more...) than 40 years after the time 'Jesus' was supposed to have lived;
vi) that the earliest copies of these 'Gospels' to have survived date from
hundreds of years after the first versions were written;
vii) that these 'earliest existing copies' contain texts that have all been
heavily and obviously edited and re-written, and contain obvious mistakes,
plagiarisations, deletions, and even bits copied from each other;
and
viii) that none of the 'artefacts' that supposedly come from 'Jesus' or his
circle can possibly be traced to actual first century persons in any way
that could establish either the existence of those persons or the
'factuality' of 'Biblical' reporting.
I'm sure the various bright people who post on here will add to this list
(and perhaps even correct me if I've made a slip anywhere). So come back in
a few hours and see what has been added!
Meanwhile, you might want to have a look at
www.jesusneverexisted.com
if you haven't seen it already!
Hope that helps in some way!
Regards,
Katt.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 09:19:01 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:48:16 GMT, "Katt" <seruhshjaudn@dfhu.net>
wrote:
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
If I may say so, you deserve *congratulations* for having thought you way
through everything you were made to believe! Not every person is able to do
that!
I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me
just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact???
Apparently it is *isn't* a 'historical fact'. For the following eight points
are nowadays pretty well established:
i) that there are no genuine contemporary or near-contemporary references to
the Christian 'Jesus' *at all*;
ii) that the place referred to as 'Nazareth' simply didn't exist then as any
kind of settlement;
iii) that none of the 'Gospels' were actually written by the people whose
names are on them;
iv) that all of the 'Gospels' were put together by people who weren't even
eye-witnesses;
v) that these 'Gospels' were only actually written down more (perhaps much
more...) than 40 years after the time 'Jesus' was supposed to have lived;
vi) that the earliest copies of these 'Gospels' to have survived date from
hundreds of years after the first versions were written;
vii) that these 'earliest existing copies' contain texts that have all been
heavily and obviously edited and re-written, and contain obvious mistakes,
plagiarisations, deletions, and even bits copied from each other;
and
viii) that none of the 'artefacts' that supposedly come from 'Jesus' or his
circle can possibly be traced to actual first century persons in any way
that could establish either the existence of those persons or the
'factuality' of 'Biblical' reporting.
Don't forget that archaeology has found the stuff in the Bible is as
accurate as "Gone With The Wind."
Israel has found the artifacts to be forgeries. They've busted a
group that's been forging them for over two decades. Museums all over
the world are now doing extensive tests on items purchased within the
last two decades. The "James Box" box itself is from the proper time
frame, but the verbage was a very recent addition (like today) and
isn't of the proper time frame. The words carved were determined to
have been freshly carved and the 'aging' a very good forgery.
I'm sure the various bright people who post on here will add to this list
(and perhaps even correct me if I've made a slip anywhere). So come back in
a few hours and see what has been added!
Meanwhile, you might want to have a look at
www.jesusneverexisted.com
if you haven't seen it already!
Hope that helps in some way!
Regards,
Katt.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Daneel" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 08:38:46 AM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
<snip>
Some more thoughts...
One more on the Bible vs. archeology: this is related to the OT
not Jesus, but sshould still interest you. According to the Bible
and even most archeologists until recently, monotheism (i.e.
the belief in a single god) was enforced as state religion all
across Judea by around 600 BC at the latest. However, Israel's
chief archeologist contradicted that image with a recently
uncovered pagan temple from the 1st-2nd century BC, on a
hilltop not far from Jerusalem.
Second, you wrote:
now I am considering myself an agnostic.
Beware, in this newsgroup, the meanings of agnostic and
atheist are a hot topic. Not so much among regulars, but
between regulars and (mostly theist) newcomers. So I will
say this: an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in gods,
an agnostic is someone who thinks the existence of gods can
be neither proved or disproved. If you think about it, you'll
see that an agnostic can be an atheist at the same time, or a(n
of course non-fundie) theist (f.e. "I can't prove God exists,
but for moral reasons I believe in Him").
If you described yourself as an agnostic merely to express
that you are at present full of doubts, you better say just that:
you're uncertain.
bye
Daneel [aa #323 | U of E student #000666]
*****************************************************************
random quote from P. Challinor's Satanic Supplement:
***Ossify***, v.i.
To turn into bone, after the fashion of the air
within the skull of a religious convert.
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| User: "Daneel" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 07:50:32 AM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot
of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years
reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that
the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I
guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist
long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me
just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean
isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No
proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
I won't repeat all the links and arguments others already supplied,
but I'll supplement some. First, I recommend these two links
above (or before) all else:
"Sixteen Saviors Crucified"
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap16.shtml
"The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical
Jesus Christ"
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
Both list a number of other religions - many of them mere cults at
their time and forgotten now, but some big and still existing - that
have gods and messiahs that do or suffer the same as the New
Testament's Jesus.
The thing is, stories, even historical ones (see below), get
elements added on as they are retold (while other elements get
lost). So the story of Jesus Christ, which we know in its final
written-down form from around 300-400 AD, could in most part
or entirely consist of religious ideas and story elements made up
or borrowed from elsewhere. So even if there was a man called
Jesus Christ who teached something and had followers, and the
Romans crucified him almost 2000 years ago, that wasn't the
Jesus you know from the Bible.
Finally, I wonder whether you heard of the First and Second
Book Of The Maccabees.
Part of the original Old Testament compilation, these two books
were tossed from the Bible by Luther and other protestants, while
the Catholic Bible kept them. The reason they were tossed is the
same I bring them up for illustration: they tell the story of the
Maccabee revolution (c. 167-160 BC) differently. One is an
entirely secular account, the second has the same events slightly
mixed up and with miracles and God's interventions added in at
key points.
bye
Daneel [aa #323 | U of E student #000666]
*****************************************************************
random quote from P. Challinor's Satanic Supplement:
***Statesman***, n.
Dead politician, who when alive made the kind of mistakes
which are now coming back into fashion.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 01:01:53 AM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time.
It is a tough journey.
Hopefully you will learn something about yourself - that you are strong
enough to overcome your programming. You are strong enough to be free.
There will be pain and possibly anger - but that will fade.
The pride will remain - and pride is not a "wicked" thing.
I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??
There is a great deal of written History from the 1st century - so If
Jesus actually existed then it is possible someone would have written
something about him.
There is no such writting.
The earliest mentions of there being *christians* is from 70 -100 years
after his life.
There may have been a historical Jesus whom th eGospel Jesus is based
upn - but there really is no way of knowing.
IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
The dating System that existed when Jesus lived - if he lived - was
Roman and based on the date of the (mythological) founding of Rome by
Romulus.
The dating we use "in the year of our lord 2005" was created in the 6th
century by a christian Monk by the name of Dionysius Exiguus ("Dennis
the little")
From:
http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html?CFID=455351&CFTOKEN=83172272
<quote>
This is illustrated by the adoption of the birth of Christ as the
initial epoch of the Christian calendar. This epoch was established by
the sixth-century scholar Dionysius Exiguus, who was compiling a table
of dates of Easter. An existing table covered the nineteen-year period
denoted 228-247, where years were counted from the beginning of the
reign of the Roman emperor Diocletian. Dionysius continued the table
for a nineteen-year period, which he designated Anni Domini Nostri Jesu
Christi 532-550. Thus, Dionysius' Anno Domini 532 is equivalent to Anno
Diocletian 248. In this way a correspondence was established between
the new Christian Era and an existing system associated with historical
records. What Dionysius did not do is establish an accurate date for
the birth of Christ. Although scholars generally believe that Christ
was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too
sketchy to allow a definitive dating.
<endquote>
You can get more info on calendars and their origins from a google
search.
Try "calandar origin christian" or "Dionysius Exiguus"
Mark.
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| User: "Masked Avenger" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 08:23:29 AM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
The calendar was created well AFTER the alleged birth of Christ ..... it
was sort of back dated by some crude maths ..... it has nothing to do
with the non reality of Jesus ...
Welcome to the real world ..... hopefully, myths and legends have no
part in deciding it's future ...
--
Masked Avenger
aa#2224
EAC Chief Technician in charge of remotely rigging Fundie 'Spell
Checkers' so they all look like hick home schooled yokels
Does Schroedinger's cat have 18 half lives ?
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
11 Jun 2005 11:52:09 PM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
The civil calender is based on edicts of political powers in times
past and those powers based things on their religious preconceptions
that Jesus had existed. I think this took place about 400 years after
those people thought Jesus to have been born. That was plenty of time
for mythology to get tangled into reality. The story of the calender
is long and convoluted and involves quite a bit of history. If you
are interested in an intro, you might read at:
http://galileo.rice.edu/chron/gregorian.html
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 03:57:45 PM |
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the high-priests at it again; very transparent, 'reverend woden' especially
your digital signature!! trouble with high-priests is they think the
common-folk people are stupid; feed them crap and they'll eat it all up.
YOUR belief is in the 'god of the black-abyss'; almost as convincing as the
suicide alien cults-just a bit less likely that's all. life goes on beyond
the grave, we can see that from the Shroud.
no-one only the poor wretches who are borderline to atheism would swallow
such blatant lies. jesus was a historical person, any historian will tell
you that. so bring on the debate woden the unwise.
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns967349A88177wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"Anthony Williams" <truthseeker@swbell.net> wrote in
news:UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic.
It isn't always easy to break away from a lifetime of brainwashing.
Congratulations on taking the first big step.
.I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
In spite of what most xian churches teach, there is no evidence
supporting a historical Jesus other than the stories of the bible. Here
are some websites you might want to read on the topic.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/jesuslife.html
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
17 Jun 2005 03:13:46 PM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
There are books pro and con on the subject of a historical Jesus. I'd
suggest you read a few of them.
-The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?
Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus - by Earl Doherty;
-The Christ Myth (Westminster College-Oxford Classics in the Study of
Religion)
by Arthur Drews
-Deconstructing Jesus by Robert M. Price
-The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S
-The Gospel of Jesus: According to the Jesus Seminar
-The Jesus Seminar and Its Critics by Robert J. Miller
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| User: "LisaKay" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
13 Jun 2005 09:48:37 AM |
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Anthony Williams wrote:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical
fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
Welcome. I'll leave the question of Jesus to the others. I just
wanted to encourage you to stick around for a while. It can seem a bit
vicious if you read the posts that begin with certain nasty theists.
(Some theists are friendly and tolerant, mind you. We treat these
people in kind.)
Congratulations on seeing the light. It can be a difficult experience
and many of us can relate to what you're going through. I was in the
same boat about five years ago. It does get better. :-)
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
13 Jun 2005 10:02:10 AM |
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It does get better. :-)
The opening of the mind is solely fabulous.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 09:25:19 AM |
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On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:02:10 +0200, "Niels van der Linden"
<n.f.l.vanderlinden@student.utwente.nl> wrote:
It does get better. :-)
The opening of the mind is solely fabulous.
Oh yes. It's as if a horrendous burden has vanished from your
shoulders.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 08:51:23 AM |
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As other have already pointed out, there is no hard evidence for Jesus
es existence.
The only evidence there is, is in the "New Testament".
The Gospels are clearly not 100% correct, so it is up to the reader,
whether to give them any Credit or not.
Because I fail to see a good reason for inventing a Messiah, I suspect
that a man like that really lived.
For several reason I suspect him to have been borne 6 BC.
One is that in that year the son of Herod - Archelaus - divorced his
wife Mariamne.
Marriamne being another spelling for Mirjam or Maria, might have
remarried.
If she did remarry a man called Josheph and if she was alread pregnant
from her previous marriage, that would explain the claim to the throne
by her son, and also his words in the Matthew 5 about a man divorcing
and another man marrying the divorced woman.
Of course this is not what a Christian would want to believe.
Think for yourself
Peter van Velzen
June 2005
Amstelveen
The Netherlands.
I believe the spiritual to be solely within the realm of the human
mind.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 11:40:09 AM |
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In article <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
truthseeker@swbell.net says...
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on infadels.org
I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow.
Faith, unfortunately, is nothing but gussied up ignorance and can only
survive in people who refuse to honestly examine it. Once one sees the
arguments on the other side the laughably impotent, empty ruse of faith
comes crashing down.
I am certainly doing a lot of
thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last 15 years reading
and studying the bible.
I've seen how fundies "study" the bible. They pray over a few verses
for hours straight and read over massive contradictions without batting
an eye.
I came to the conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the
bible is contradictory
Wow, it took six years of studying the bible to find a contradiction.
You can open it to most pages at random and find one.
but some how looked passed it all this time. I guees
we really are conditioned to be christian in this country in my case
pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the fundementalist long
ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me
to be saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let me just
cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is it verifiable
that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago???
Well, first off, what difference would it have made for there to be an
actual historical guy upon which the myths were based? He still
couldn't, in any way die for your sins. The alleged "miracles"
attributed to him were in an age so pre-scientific that they made up
miracles and attributed them to people all the time, as a matter of
course. His near death experience or recovery would say nothing about
your own prospects for health or future life. So why do you care?
IS that a historical
fact???
It's not historical whatsoever, despite the hype from certain
theologians. The descriptions of the life of Jesus are incredibly vague
and fragmentary even compared to the descriptions we have of people such
as alexander or augustus.
Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005.
That was back dated when the church redid their calendar. The old
schemes dated things would count years since the beginning of the reign
of particular kings and made for a fucking mess in terms of bookkeeping.
Naturally, the crutch...erm...church tried to speculate upon when they
believed Jesus was born and used this as the starting point of their
calendar.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 07:00:00 AM |
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In our last episode <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Anthony Williams pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly
doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last
15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years
ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it
all this time. I guees we really are conditioned to be christian in this
country in my case pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the
fundementalist long ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is
unbelievable for me to be saying this but now I am considering myself an
agnostic. .I know there must be a lot of very well read people on this
newgroup so let me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by
what way is it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years
ago??? IS that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would
be the year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on
this earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
As a former fundamentalist myself, I know how much of a jolt it can be to
discover that there's not a single shred of real evidence this "Jesus"
ever existed. I've looked at all the "evidence" presented, all the
arguments apologists make, and gone digging on my own. There just isn't
anything there.
It can be a hell of a jolt to you when you've been raised in the belief.
Feels a lot like being betrayed...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Bonnie B." |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 03:57:36 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:00:00 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Anthony Williams pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly
doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last
15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years
ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it
all this time. I guees we really are conditioned to be christian in this
country in my case pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the
fundementalist long ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is
unbelievable for me to be saying this but now I am considering myself an
agnostic. .I know there must be a lot of very well read people on this
newgroup so let me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by
what way is it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years
ago??? IS that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would
be the year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on
this earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
As a former fundamentalist myself, I know how much of a jolt it can be to
discover that there's not a single shred of real evidence this "Jesus"
ever existed. I've looked at all the "evidence" presented, all the
arguments apologists make, and gone digging on my own. There just isn't
anything there.
It can be a hell of a jolt to you when you've been raised in the belief.
Feels a lot like being betrayed...
"That would be the downside of betrayal," Rupert Giles to Ms.
Calendar.
Ein Prosit der GemŸtlichkeit --
Bonnie *****
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 09:22:03 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:00:00 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Anthony Williams pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly
doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last
15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years
ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it
all this time. I guees we really are conditioned to be christian in this
country in my case pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the
fundementalist long ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is
unbelievable for me to be saying this but now I am considering myself an
agnostic. .I know there must be a lot of very well read people on this
newgroup so let me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by
what way is it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years
ago??? IS that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would
be the year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on
this earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
As a former fundamentalist myself, I know how much of a jolt it can be to
discover that there's not a single shred of real evidence this "Jesus"
ever existed. I've looked at all the "evidence" presented, all the
arguments apologists make, and gone digging on my own. There just isn't
anything there.
It can be a hell of a jolt to you when you've been raised in the belief.
Feels a lot like being betrayed...
You were. 'Wholesale and retail.'
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
16 Jun 2005 10:44:25 AM |
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On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:22:03 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:00:00 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Anthony Williams pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am certainly
doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have spent the last
15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the conclusion years
ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some how looked passed it
all this time. I guees we really are conditioned to be christian in this
country in my case pentacostal fundementalist . though I rebelled from the
fundementalist long ago I always considered myself a prodigal son. This is
unbelievable for me to be saying this but now I am considering myself an
agnostic. .I know there must be a lot of very well read people on this
newgroup so let me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by
what way is it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years
ago??? IS that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would
be the year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on
this earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
As a former fundamentalist myself, I know how much of a jolt it can be to
discover that there's not a single shred of real evidence this "Jesus"
ever existed. I've looked at all the "evidence" presented, all the
arguments apologists make, and gone digging on my own. There just isn't
anything there.
It can be a hell of a jolt to you when you've been raised in the belief.
Feels a lot like being betrayed...
You were. 'Wholesale and retail.'
Dan Barker says pretty much the same thing.
He devotes a chapter to it in "Losing Faith in Faith". When he was
training to be a minister at "bible college" they did maybe an
afternoon on evidence. Which basically consisted of the usual list
these guys trot out. But they didn't look at any of it - it was just
the names, they didn't need it themselves and were just happy to know
it was there.
As though saying "Tacitus" somehow proves something.
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
12 Jun 2005 04:56:47 AM |
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In our last episode,
<UwOqe.2730$751.765@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>, the lovely and
talented Anthony Williams broadcast on alt.atheism:
I know there must be a lot of very well read people on this
newgroup so let me just cut to the chase and ask can some one
tell me by what way is it verifiable that jesus christ lived
and died 2000 years ago??? IS that a historical fact??? Seems
to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years
ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is there proof
that he lived ?
Most historians in Christendom say: "There is no reason to
doubt there was a historical Jesus." That, you will notice, is a
far thing from saying there is any evidence he lived. When the
Gospels speak of anything that could possibly tie the Biblical
Jesus to a historical person, they are full of obvious frauds
and contradictions. There wasn't any census in any year that
could be related to the birth of Jesus, there is no agreement in
the Gospels on Jesus's linage, etc., etc. But in a larger
sense, it really doesn't matter. Only one of the Gospels was
written by someone who possibly could have (as a young child)
seen Jesus. It is really rather clear that the ideas of
Christianity were stuff that had been knocking around in Greek
cults for a long time, but were completely foreign to Jewish
theology. In other words, the whole thing has Paul's
fingerprints all over it. Messianic cults were rather common
among Jews at that time - which is hardly surprising considering
their position at the time. But of course, those cults involved
the Jewish idea of a Messiah, which was sort of a Moses-like
leader who would lead them out of earth bondage again. Maybe
Paul based his religion on rumors about one particular little
cult and its leader. Maybe Paul made it all up from scratch. I
don't see that it matters much, since it is very clear that the
connect between Paul's religion and anyone who might actually
have lived would be nothing more that a name and a vague rumor.
There are so many places there could be evidence where there
just isn't. There isn't any in Roman records - and the Romans
almost single-handedly invented bureaucracy. Where are the
contemporary critics. One of the reasons we can have more
confidence that Socrates existed is we have the writings of
*critics.* We think Plato's Socrates was somewhat at odds with
the real Socrates, but we don't have to take Plato's word for
Socrates' existence. We have contemporary satires and
criticisms of him from people who didn't think he was so hot.
If there was any historical substance behind the Biblical Jesus,
why don't we have even the briefest note of a contemporary
skeptic? If a historical Jesus did or said any of the things
attributed to the Biblical Jesus, wouldn't that have riled up
some literate pharisee enough to make a little note of it?
But if there was a historical Jesus who did and said none of the
things attributed to the Biblical Jesus, what is the point in
trying to determine whether there was a historical Jesus?
We need to think about what "historical Jesus" means? Does it
mean there was a guy by the same name about the time of the
Biblical Jesus? Would a Jim Jones or David Koresh of that time,
named Jesus do? How about the Oscar Wilde/Elvis Jesus - a guy
named Jesus wandering around with a few buddies, occasionally
saying something pithy, and terribly charismatic? In other
words, what would some real historical figure have to have in
common with the Biblical Jesus for us to say we have discovered
the historical Jesus?
--
Rev. Lars Eighner ULC Atheist #1965 http://www.larseighner.com/
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks
without knowledge, of things without parallel." --Ambrose Bierce
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
11 Jun 2005 11:37:23 PM |
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On 11 Jun 2005, Anthony Williams dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
After spending the last couple of weeks reading the debates on
infadels.org I gotta say my faith has took a massive blow. I am
certainly doing a lot of thinking to say the least. I am 31 and have
spent the last 15 years reading and studying the bible. I came to the
conclusion years ago (at 21 )that the bible is contradictory but some
how looked passed it all this time. I guees we really are conditioned
to be christian in this country in my case pentacostal fundementalist
. though I rebelled from the fundementalist long ago I always
considered myself a prodigal son. This is unbelievable for me to be
saying this but now I am considering myself an agnostic. .
Congratulations! It's not unbelievable that one could fall from grace.
In fact, I think of it as coming to the age of reason. There is no
greater case for atheism than the Holy Bible.
I know
there must be a lot of very well read people on this newgroup so let
me just cut to the chase and ask can some one tell me by what way is
it verifiable that jesus christ lived and died 2000 years ago???
There is no verifying it. The entire dogma is a logical fallacy called
Circulum in Demonstrando, also known as circular argument. The religion
pre-supposed the existence of its god, then bases all its arguments on
that unproven "fact". The bible's Jesus lived and died 2000 years ago
because the bible says so. The same argument could be used to prove the
existence of Harry Potter. There is no secular evidence Jesus ever
existed. None. Take for example the killing of all the male children in
Bethlehem by King Herod. Herod did exist, we have written records,
secular evidence of his existence. But the event above as described in
the bible should have been noticed by historians of the time. How could
it not be noticed? Yet it falls strangely silent outside of the bible.
IS
that a historical fact??? Seems to me like some big proof would be the
year 2005. I mean isn't that alone proof that jesus was born on this
earth 2005 years ago? No proof that he was God or anything but is
there proof that he lived ?
The bible says Jesus said he would return within the lifetimes of his
desciples to begin the thousand years' reign on a raptured earth. That
statement coupled with the fact that it never happened is good enough for
me. For more information, check this out.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't
think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and
parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face
white and praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
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| User: "spakka" |
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| Title: Re: my faith has took a massive blow |
13 Jun 2005 07:16:05 AM |
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 04:06:12 +0000, Anthony Williams wrote:
Seems to me like some big proof would be the year 2005. I mean isn't
that alone proof that jesus was born on this earth 2005 years ago? No proof
that he was God or anything but is there proof that he lived ?
I didn't see a post addressing this particular point.
The custom of numbering years from the birth of Jesus was initiated by
this guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_Exiguus
some 500 years after the alleged event.
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