| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Iain" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2005 05:15:20 AM |
| Object: |
My feelings |
American-style creationism is academically heartbreaking, so out of
touch with the extensiveness and rigour of scientific research as to be
actually rather disgusting. We may as well have astronomy classes
teaching children that the moon is made of cheese that God draws a new
shadow on every day with a felt-tip pen. It's like teaching urination
in gymn class, except that urination isn't a lie.
It's not a matter of belief; It's a matter of professionalism in
education.
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
When I was only _seven years old_, a teacher took our class to an
excavation of an ancient Roman villa in Yorkshire, England.
The archaeologist there had uncovered a small, mud-encrusted object the
size of a small fist. She then soaked it gently under some sort of tap
from which flowed cleansing fluid of some kind. Gradually, a couple of
hours later, as the dirt and mud dissolved, it revealed a bright
primary-coloured sturdy, good-as-new little girl's sandal, as if made
to fit the girls in my class, at least 1900 years old. Now THAT'S
education -- Albeit more sensual that anything else.
At the age of seven, one's reverence for the world of honest science
and discovery was consumated as the past and present melted together in
a plastic bowl.
As a result, I always saw politicised yokels ranting in the insular
bowels of America and home-schooled British millionaires thinking they
can try their hand at educating children, have as much to do with the
real world of knowledge as a shampoo advert claiming that vitamins can
perforate my folicles.
~Iain
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 09:32:11 AM |
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Iain wrote:
American-style creationism is academically heartbreaking, so out of
touch with the extensiveness and rigour of scientific research as to be
actually rather disgusting. We may as well have astronomy classes
teaching children that the moon is made of cheese.....
Unlike creationism, the idea that the
moon is made of cheese is falsifiable...
Gotta go,
Cabbage
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 06:34:37 AM |
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On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
I had a rather startling/enlightening experience on the public bus a
few years ago. I don't recall the exact details, but it involved an
adult asking me how to do some very basic arithmetic (presumably
calculating a week's wages, given the numbers involved). I was
surprised to begin with, but utterly shocked when my suggestion for an
easy way to do it mentally ("multiply by 100 and then divide by two",
or whatever it was) just drew a long blank look. You'd have thought I
had suggested tickling a turtle's nose with an ostrich feather to get
the answer.
It's easy to take your educational advantages for granted. (Probably
more so, for those of us who hang around universities for endless
years.)
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 07:17:42 AM |
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(Bobby D. Bryant) wrote in
news:dgu4sd$qdv$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
I had a rather startling/enlightening experience on the public bus a
few years ago. I don't recall the exact details, but it involved an
adult asking me how to do some very basic arithmetic (presumably
calculating a week's wages, given the numbers involved). I was
surprised to begin with, but utterly shocked when my suggestion for an
easy way to do it mentally ("multiply by 100 and then divide by two",
or whatever it was) just drew a long blank look. You'd have thought I
had suggested tickling a turtle's nose with an ostrich feather to get
the answer.
It's easy to take your educational advantages for granted. (Probably
more so, for those of us who hang around universities for endless
years.)
I once saw someone with a master's degree not know how to
calculate the area of a rectangle. I am not kidding.
She was going for another degree and the school was
realizing she was not good enough in basic math, etc.
required her to take some _remedial_ courses and she
had a hard doing _any_ of it. I don't think she made
it though I really can't say for sure.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet@sdc." with "harlequin2@"
"So easily are men the dupes of their own prejudice."
-- Percival Lowell, _Mars as the Abode of Life_.
1908. pp. 153-154.
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| User: "John Bode" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 08:51:39 AM |
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Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
I had a rather startling/enlightening experience on the public bus a
few years ago. I don't recall the exact details, but it involved an
adult asking me how to do some very basic arithmetic (presumably
calculating a week's wages, given the numbers involved). I was
surprised to begin with, but utterly shocked when my suggestion for an
easy way to do it mentally ("multiply by 100 and then divide by two",
or whatever it was) just drew a long blank look. You'd have thought I
had suggested tickling a turtle's nose with an ostrich feather to get
the answer.
It's easy to take your educational advantages for granted. (Probably
more so, for those of us who hang around universities for endless
years.)
I used to think my public school education fell comfortably into the
"average" category; over time, I've come to the disheartening
realization that no, it was actually closer to the high end of the
curve. Given that I know how much I *didn't* learn, that scares me a
bit.
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| User: "Marc Satterwhite" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 12:46:49 PM |
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John Bode wrote:
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
I had a rather startling/enlightening experience on the public bus a
few years ago. I don't recall the exact details, but it involved an
adult asking me how to do some very basic arithmetic (presumably
calculating a week's wages, given the numbers involved). I was
surprised to begin with, but utterly shocked when my suggestion for an
easy way to do it mentally ("multiply by 100 and then divide by two",
or whatever it was) just drew a long blank look. You'd have thought I
had suggested tickling a turtle's nose with an ostrich feather to get
the answer.
It's easy to take your educational advantages for granted. (Probably
more so, for those of us who hang around universities for endless
years.)
I used to think my public school education fell comfortably into the
"average" category; over time, I've come to the disheartening
realization that no, it was actually closer to the high end of the
curve. Given that I know how much I *didn't* learn, that scares me a
bit.
A couple of experiences of mine. I don't mean to brag on myself,
but it was a mystery to me why I kept getting As in college in courses
I didn't think I was doing A work in. I thought I was doing serious
A work in my major, and decent, solid B work in other courses, but
I mostly got As in everything (except a disastrous art appreciation course;
it turns out my visual intelligence isn't what it ought to be, even though
I love art).
A few years later I discovered at least part of the reason. My roommate
in grad school was a TA for a course in Greek literature
in translation. He asked me to read some of the papers he had to grade,
since I knew the literature, and see what grade I would give them,
as a sort of check on himself. I was shocked and horrified
at the level of writing. Run-on sentences galore, sentences that
simply didn't mean ANYTHING, no matter how you tried to parse them, cliches,
incoherent paragraphs, papers with no apparent thesis, you name
it. There were some glorious exceptions, but by and large it was just
awful.
And this was at a major university, although not exactly an Ivy League
school.
I honestly think a good part of the reason I kept making As at my undergrad
school was simply that I could write a meaningful sentence, organize a
paragraph,
and shape an argument in a convincing way, even if I didn't have anything
terribly original to say. I could also distinguish between language
appropriate
for, say, an English paper, and language suitable for a dorm poker party.
Some years later, my wife and I were in a store at the deli counter. There
was something we were buying that cost $5.00/pound. I asked for a buck's
worth (this was at a time when $5.00/pound was fairly expensive for
something
at a deli counter; it certainly wouldn't be now). The young woman working
behind the counter had absolutely no idea what fraction of a pound that
would be
until I told her.
I should have known better, but then I asked for a quarter pound of
something
else (again, something expensive, like prosciutto, but I don't remember
what).
She weighed out about half a pound. I said, "I'm sorry, but I asked for a
quarter pound." She started cutting MORE, apparently thinking that a half
is less than a quarter. My wife said she could feel my blood pressure
spike from three feet away. I think she grabbed my arm and steered me
towards the door before I could explode (and honestly I'm generally a
very even-tempered guy, and I NEVER yell at or abuse service personell).
To get sort of on topic here, one of the big problems in this country is
that the votes of people like this count as much as the votes of, well,
you and me. I really, really hate to sound that elitist, and I honestly
think every adult citizen should be allowed to vote, so I don't know what
the solution is. But still, it does make me despair a bit. It's no wonder
that creationism is still around, not to mention televangelism and other
scams, both religious and otherwise.
Best, Marc
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 03:57:25 PM |
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Marc Satterwhite wrote:
John Bode wrote:
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
To get sort of on topic here, one of the big problems in this country is
that the votes of people like this count as much as the votes of, well,
you and me. I really, really hate to sound that elitist, and I honestly
think every adult citizen should be allowed to vote, so I don't know what
the solution is. But still, it does make me despair a bit. It's no wonder
that creationism is still around, not to mention televangelism and other
scams, both religious and otherwise.
Robert Heinlein suggested that voting privileges depend on a simple
test, available to all Yankees: pass first semester calculus. Now I'm
not sure I agree with this suggestion, but there are times when I think
of it wistfully.
Of course, we'd have to vote on it first, via representatives...
Best, Marc
Kermit
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| User: "Marc Satterwhite" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
24 Sep 2005 10:42:41 AM |
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wrote:
Marc Satterwhite wrote:
John Bode wrote:
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
To get sort of on topic here, one of the big problems in this country is
that the votes of people like this count as much as the votes of, well,
you and me. I really, really hate to sound that elitist, and I honestly
think every adult citizen should be allowed to vote, so I don't know what
the solution is. But still, it does make me despair a bit. It's no wonder
that creationism is still around, not to mention televangelism and other
scams, both religious and otherwise.
Robert Heinlein suggested that voting privileges depend on a simple
test, available to all Yankees: pass first semester calculus. Now I'm
not sure I agree with this suggestion, but there are times when I think
of it wistfully.
Of course, we'd have to vote on it first, via representatives...
Best, Marc
Kermit
Ah Heinlein, what an interesting and sometimes contradictory
character. I haven't read him for a long time, but he was a big
part of my adolescent and young adult reading. Hard to believe
the same guy wrote Stranger in a Strange Land and Starship
Troopers. Also hard to believe the same guy who was among the
first to introduce women characters doing things like being spaceship
designers, and black characters running international agencies, could
make some of the cringe-making racist and sexist comments
he did (albeit mostly early in his career).
I __kind of__ like the suggestion above. I actually never took
calculus, but surely would have if my voting privileges had
depended on it. It'll never happen, of course, and in my heart
of hearts I'm not sure I think it should (hence the "kind of"
above), but still... makes you think.
On the flip side: in some countries, including Mexico,
voting is mandatory. What do you think of that?
Best, Marc
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 10:02:28 AM |
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John Bode wrote:
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
When I was young, I always assumed everyone else had as good an
education as I. I've only recently realised what a wonderful thing
education can be.
I had a rather startling/enlightening experience on the public bus a
few years ago. I don't recall the exact details, but it involved an
adult asking me how to do some very basic arithmetic (presumably
calculating a week's wages, given the numbers involved). I was
surprised to begin with, but utterly shocked when my suggestion for an
easy way to do it mentally ("multiply by 100 and then divide by two",
or whatever it was) just drew a long blank look. You'd have thought I
had suggested tickling a turtle's nose with an ostrich feather to get
the answer.
It's easy to take your educational advantages for granted. (Probably
more so, for those of us who hang around universities for endless
years.)
I used to think my public school education fell comfortably into the
"average" category; over time, I've come to the disheartening
realization that no, it was actually closer to the high end of the
curve. Given that I know how much I *didn't* learn, that scares me a
bit.
My friend is the son of the man who designed the wings on concord and
went to the best private school in Edinburgh. He came out surpised that
WW2 happened as late as the 1940s and plans to excercise regularly so
that he might have muscular children.
~Iain
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 08:47:48 AM |
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Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Has anyone here any subjective feelings for vehemiently opposing this
rather frightening nonsense has other than the more open respect for
science and truth?
I'm sorry, but I can't parse that. Could you rephrase it?
Remove the second Has of the sentence; It is debris.
~Iain
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| User: "Kari Tikkanen" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 07:21:08 AM |
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Here in Finland on late evening I was having a cup of coffee in local
hamburger restaurant and I saw a worker organising trays on piles. She
shouted to her fellow worker: "Hey how much is 5 times 5 ?" "HAH
What?",men's voice replied from distance. She repeated very loudly "HOW
MUCH IS 5 TIMES 5 ?" -"25 !",man shouted - "THANKS!", she answered and
continued piling..
This amused me all the evening and next days..
Less amusing it was when I posted it to humour group and few got it.
"Where's the point?" one answered.
It could mean.. oh boy.. :/
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| User: "news" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 10:20:05 AM |
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"Kari Tikkanen" <mrkat@suomi24.fi> wrote in news:1127391667.987464.87410
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Here in Finland on late evening I was having a cup of coffee in local
hamburger restaurant and I saw a worker organising trays on piles. She
shouted to her fellow worker: "Hey how much is 5 times 5 ?" "HAH
What?",men's voice replied from distance. She repeated very loudly "HOW
MUCH IS 5 TIMES 5 ?" -"25 !",man shouted - "THANKS!", she answered and
continued piling..
So what is 5 x 5? Don't hold out on us!
--
"You tried to scan me, you freaked-out maniac." --TV's Frank.
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| User: "Brett Aubrey" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
23 Sep 2005 05:42:35 PM |
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"news" <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96D9554676437newbnewbcom@67.98.68.21...
"Kari Tikkanen" <mrkat@suomi24.fi> wrote in news:1127391667.987464.87410
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Here in Finland on late evening I was having a cup of coffee in local
hamburger restaurant and I saw a worker organising trays on piles. She
shouted to her fellow worker: "Hey how much is 5 times 5 ?" "HAH
What?",men's voice replied from distance. She repeated very loudly "HOW
MUCH IS 5 TIMES 5 ?" -"25 !",man shouted - "THANKS!", she answered
and continued piling..
So what is 5 x 5? Don't hold out on us!
Silly guy! He has it in his text - I checked it in Excel and he's even
right!
--
"You tried to scan me, you freaked-out maniac." --TV's Frank.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
06 Oct 2005 11:45:42 AM |
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I was having a cup of coffee in local hamburger restaurant and I saw
a worker organising trays on piles. She shouted to her fellow worker:
"Hey how much is 5 times 5 ?" "HAH What?",men's voice replied from
distance. She repeated very loudly "HOW MUCH IS 5 TIMES 5 ?" -"25
!",man shouted - "THANKS!", she answered
There are so many students to memorize how to perform arithmetic
maniuplations in base ten, but have no idea what they are doing nor how
to apply such algorithms to real-world applications. That worker you
cite may have been rusty at the calculations, but at least she
understood the principles and how to apply them to real-world
applications, and if she had a calculator at hand she probably could
have gotten the answer without asking a co-worker, so I have to give
credit to her.
..
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
06 Oct 2005 03:28:05 PM |
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No one that is beyond elementry school should HAVE to perform any
calculations to tell what 5 times 5 is. It's one of the things in math
that everyone should have memorized.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 09:27:27 AM |
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Here's one that will make you feel better
Two mathematicians, Joe and Richard, were having dinner in a
restaurant, arguing about the average mathematical knowledge of the
American public. Richard claimed that this average was woefully
inadequate while Joe maintained that it was surprisingly high.
"I'll tell you what," said Richard, "when I get back from the bathroom
we'll ask our waitress a simple calculus question. If she gets it
right, I'll pick up dinner. If not, you do. Okay?"
They agreed, but once he'd left, Joe called the waitress over. "When my
friend comes back," he told her, "he's going to ask you a question; you
should respond 'one third x cubed' no matter what the question is; got
that? There's five bucks in it for you."
She repeats "one third -- dex cue"?
He repeats "one third x cubed".
She asks, "one thir dex cuebd?"
"Yes, that's right," he says.
She happily agreed to the gag. Richard returned from the men's room and
called the waitress over. "The food was wonderful," he started,
"incidentally, do you know what the integral of x squared is?"
After pausing for a second the waitress slowly said, "um, one third x
cubed?"
Joe beamed in relief as an astonished Richard paid the check and the
waitress, while walking away, turns back and says over her shoulder
"plus a constant!"
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| User: "Carl Kaufmann" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 03:06:56 PM |
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Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
Here's one that will make you feel better
Two mathematicians, Joe and Richard, were having dinner in a
restaurant, arguing about the average mathematical knowledge of the
American public. Richard claimed that this average was woefully
inadequate while Joe maintained that it was surprisingly high.
"I'll tell you what," said Richard, "when I get back from the bathroom
we'll ask our waitress a simple calculus question. If she gets it
right, I'll pick up dinner. If not, you do. Okay?"
They agreed, but once he'd left, Joe called the waitress over. "When my
friend comes back," he told her, "he's going to ask you a question; you
should respond 'one third x cubed' no matter what the question is; got
that? There's five bucks in it for you."
She repeats "one third -- dex cue"?
He repeats "one third x cubed".
She asks, "one thir dex cuebd?"
"Yes, that's right," he says.
She happily agreed to the gag. Richard returned from the men's room and
called the waitress over. "The food was wonderful," he started,
"incidentally, do you know what the integral of x squared is?"
After pausing for a second the waitress slowly said, "um, one third x
cubed?"
Joe beamed in relief as an astonished Richard paid the check and the
waitress, while walking away, turns back and says over her shoulder
"plus a constant!"
LOL
Carl (8/9ths of an M.Math.)
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| User: "Bob Casanova" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 05:07:04 PM |
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On 22 Sep 2005 07:27:27 -0700, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by "Conspiracy of Doves"
<mark_dp73@yahoo.com>:
Here's one that will make you feel better
Two mathematicians, Joe and Richard, were having dinner in a
restaurant, arguing about the average mathematical knowledge of the
American public. Richard claimed that this average was woefully
inadequate while Joe maintained that it was surprisingly high.
"I'll tell you what," said Richard, "when I get back from the bathroom
we'll ask our waitress a simple calculus question. If she gets it
right, I'll pick up dinner. If not, you do. Okay?"
They agreed, but once he'd left, Joe called the waitress over. "When my
friend comes back," he told her, "he's going to ask you a question; you
should respond 'one third x cubed' no matter what the question is; got
that? There's five bucks in it for you."
She repeats "one third -- dex cue"?
He repeats "one third x cubed".
She asks, "one thir dex cuebd?"
"Yes, that's right," he says.
She happily agreed to the gag. Richard returned from the men's room and
called the waitress over. "The food was wonderful," he started,
"incidentally, do you know what the integral of x squared is?"
After pausing for a second the waitress slowly said, "um, one third x
cubed?"
Joe beamed in relief as an astonished Richard paid the check and the
waitress, while walking away, turns back and says over her shoulder
"plus a constant!"
*Beautiful*! Thank you!
--
Bob C.
"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
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| User: "Seppo Pietikainen" |
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| Title: Re: My feelings |
22 Sep 2005 08:02:14 AM |
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Kari Tikkanen wrote:
Here in Finland on late evening I was having a cup of coffee in local
hamburger restaurant and I saw a worker organising trays on piles. She
shouted to her fellow worker: "Hey how much is 5 times 5 ?" "HAH
What?",men's voice replied from distance. She repeated very loudly "HOW
MUCH IS 5 TIMES 5 ?" -"25 !",man shouted - "THANKS!", she answered and
continued piling..
This amused me all the evening and next days..
Less amusing it was when I posted it to humour group and few got it.
"Where's the point?" one answered.
It could mean.. oh boy.. :/
She's the "Right Stuff" for a creationist...
Seppo P.
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